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  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    Sorry, but that's nonsense.

    You've chosen a skill that does multiple hits, and compared it to an imaginary skill that does 1 hit. Why not compare it to Mighty Blow or Eviscerate?

    Why not compare it to another skill that has multiple hits? Like a ranger trap, sword of justice, plaguelands, caltrops etc etc etc Those don't just hit once and dump all their damage up front, they need to hit multiple times to give the full efffect. Exactly the same as rapid-fire, you can eat the first hit of those and dodge the rest, mitigating the damage.

    In gave you the perfect example, you get hit once you get the condition ticks for long time. Caltrops will apply 10s bleeds, You get hit once and you will be bleeding for a long time. A viper nest will poison you for 8 seconds for each hit.
    Igniting Burst will burn you for 5 seconds. Grasping Dead will apply 12 seconds of bleeding. Autoattacks like Blood Curse will stack 5s bleeds every 1/2 second.

    With such long durations is very easy to stack any amount of ticking conditions which can not keep cleansing. So unless all classes cleanses all conditions with dodges the mechanic is OP for PvP modes and needs to be fixed.

    As I said: the easiest is to give a buff which blocks any new incoming conditions for short time when actively cleansed. So if you cleansed burning you will be safe from new incoming burns for some seconds And use the stack system to make the buff longer will be positive for balance as it would reward the player for cleansing the condition bursts. The skill ceiling will be higher as condi builds currently are very forgiving with sets like Trailblazers and Dire in WvW and Rabid and Carrion in sPvP, and after this they will need to be careful when to apply the burst. Hey the same as power builds needs to keep an eye for immunities.

    And this magically would fix the perma-stun lockdowns as after breaking stun you would get 1 second of immunity to react.

    I would set the limit for this buff duration of 5s by condition in sPvP and 10s by condition in wvw.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    Sorry, but that's nonsense.

    You've chosen a skill that does multiple hits, and compared it to an imaginary skill that does 1 hit. Why not compare it to Mighty Blow or Eviscerate?

    Why not compare it to another skill that has multiple hits? Like a ranger trap, sword of justice, plaguelands, caltrops etc etc etc Those don't just hit once and dump all their damage up front, they need to hit multiple times to give the full efffect. Exactly the same as rapid-fire, you can eat the first hit of those and dodge the rest, mitigating the damage.

    In gave you the perfect example, you get hit once you get the condition ticks for long time. Caltrops will apply 10s bleeds, You get hit once and you will be bleeding for a long time. A viper nest will poison you for 8 seconds for each hit.
    Igniting Burst will burn you for 5 seconds. Grasping Dead will apply 12 seconds of bleeding. Autoattacks like Blood Curse will stack 5s bleeds every 1/2 second.

    With such long durations is very easy to stack any amount of ticking conditions which can not keep cleansing. So unless all classes cleanses all conditions with dodges the mechanic is OP for PvP modes and needs to be fixed.

    As I said: the easiest is to give a buff which blocks any new incoming conditions for short time when actively cleansed. So if you cleansed burning you will be safe from new incoming burns for some seconds And use the stack system to make the buff longer will be positive for balance as it would reward the player for cleansing the condition bursts. The skill ceiling will be higher as condi builds currently are very forgiving with sets like Trailblazers and Dire in WvW and Rabid and Carrion in sPvP, and after this they will need to be careful when to apply the burst. Hey the same as power builds needs to keep an eye for immunities.

    And this magically would fix the perma-stun lockdowns as after breaking stun you would get 1 second of immunity to react.

    I would set the limit for this buff duration of 5s by condition in sPvP and 10s by condition in wvw.

    The damage has already been done. If you get a 8s poison on you, you've already received the damage, it just has a delayed arrival. It's not doing any "new" damage, you've already received it.

    It's like saying that you can't dodge Pulmonary Impact, because it has a delayed arrival. No, you dodge the skill that applied the Pulmonary Impact.

    The damage per-tick is also proportionally lower than power attacks, it's the total from all ticks that adds up to being comparable. A power attack does 5k damage up front, a condi attack does 1k damage per second for 5s = 5k damage. The condition attack doesn't magically do more damage just because it happens over a period of time. Both of them do 5k.

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You guys don't understand the real problem.

    Burn damage is crazy strong and stack too much, that is a true.

    But the real problem is how it's easy to be applied.

    With most power builds if you use your burst skills, let's say Sevenshot, if you reflect it or dodge it you are okay.

    If you cleanse 10 stacks of burn, few moments later you have another 10, you cleanse them too, next skill or just autoattack spam will give you another solid stack.

    This is the real problem, too easy to spam and apply with zero drawbacks.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    The damage has already been done. If you get a 8s poison on you, you've already received the damage, it just has a delayed arrival. It's not doing any "new" damage, you've already received it.

    It's like saying that you can't dodge Pulmonary Impact, because it has a delayed arrival. No, you dodge the skill that applied the Pulmonary Impact.

    The damage per-tick is also proportionally lower than power attacks, it's the total from all ticks that adds up to being comparable. A power attack does 5k damage up front, a condi attack does 1k damage per second for 5s = 5k damage. The condition attack doesn't magically do more damage just because it happens over a period of time. Both of them do 5k.

    I get your point but still you see the damage like "it is already done" when is not the case. The examples i gave you are exactly that case: You get hit once with the rapidfire and then you get the full damage of the channel overtime. Damage which also stacks with other Rapid Fires.

    Think Soulbeast get OWP as passive now and every attack triggers the skill but instead ticking once ticks 4 times. 4 seconds is well below average duration. 1K damage is about 2 burning from a Dire set like this one, which you will keep at least 2 stacks of burning on you at all times against this build.
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWwAEl/lFw6YIsN2IO+KarNA-z1IY8o+PISqAnppBfaA-w
    In sPvP
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWwAEl/lFw6YIsN2IO+KarNA-zZoCikKwZA

    I use burning as example but the same happens with torment and confusion and many other builds. 1K bleeds can be achieved very easy in a condi build where you will need just 3 bleeds to achieve that. It is very easy to get constant ticks well over 1K for just moving around or the auto attacks.

    One Wolf Pack well the condi version would be instead ticking once it would tick for the next 4 seconds and staking with following attacks. The current 1K damage tick is well within low side of the bleeds damage you may get from almost any condi build.

    If you don't think a passive OWP for the soulbeast is fine why should it be ticking conditions.

    @whoknocks.4935 said:
    If you cleanse 10 stacks of burn, few moments later you have another 10, you cleanse them too, next skill or just autoattack spam will give you another solid stack.
    This is the real problem, too easy to spam and apply with zero drawbacks.

    Exactly my point, as such to have a buff (let's say the same icon as the condition but in blue) when you get a condition cleansed so the same condition can not be applied for some seconds (depending on the stacks) would be the perfect solution. It is the same problem for any other condition in game.

    You cleansing a condi burst would be the same effect as reflecting a seven shot but overtime. You would be immune to those conditions for some time. You cleansing 2 stacks would not have the same effect as cleansing 10.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    One Wolf Pack well the condi version would be instead ticking once it would tick for the next 4 seconds and staking with following attacks. The current 1K damage tick is well within low side of the bleeds damage you may get from almost any condi build.

    If you don't think a passive OWP for the soulbeast is fine why should it be ticking conditions.

    If the power damage of Soulbest was reduced as a trade-off, and if Cleanse could remove OWP, sure, why not? Being able to do sticky uncleansable OWP damage AND be able to drop 10k rapid-fires and 8k Mauls would be pretty stupid.

    Its a pretty stupid comparison to take a build doing big power damage AND "passive" condi damage, and compare it to a build that ONLY does "passive" condi damage. Like....... really?

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    Honestly MMO forums are such a drag these days...just individuals asking for nerfs on anything that kills them.....those same people then try to defend their toy when it gets too OP as nothing can kill them.

    "My profession takes skills.....yours doesn't"...that's like the line of almost every individual in this forum, it was fun at time to go through these pages but honestly.....it's not even fun anymore...god

    "Oh ranger killed me from 1500 range.....OP.....ele killed me with burning...OP.......guardian killed me with burning.....OP.........thief bursted me .........OP..........." here let me give you the perfect solution :

    https://elderscrolls.bethesda.net/en/skyrim

    Then after you install it...use these :

    https://www.ign.com/wikis/the-elder-scrolls-5-skyrim/PC_Console_Command_Cheats

    Let me tell you one more thing : most of you don't become better at playing with time....everything else around you gets exponentially worst with Anet going even as far as buffing you on the other hand. People complain about burning...whatever you're running is not remotely close to be fair to play and play against that's how MMOs work and that's something I came to accept with time.

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    Its a pretty stupid comparison to take a build doing big power damage AND "passive" condi damage, and compare it to a build that ONLY does "passive" condi damage. Like....... really?

    Condi builds can use Viper or Grieving and use power weapons as well for high output damage, the guard build use power weapons . Additionally condi builds usually does not apply only one condition, Am i Correct? So if cleanses can work on OWP any cleanse only can remove 2 stacks at once of the unlimited you can have on you.

    You see how ridiculous sounds trying to defend what everybody is saying is broken in any PvP?

    Anet can decide to keep nerfing the condi applications in all the skills in game and get the Ranger treatment (from 3s to 1s 66% duration reduction), power creep the cleanses in game or apply this design.

    I think my suggestion is the most sensible and efficient:

    • You still can apply the bursts as needed. Just keep an eye for the cleanses. No need to rework any skill.
    • Your auto attack damage will still tick as nobody will like to waste a cleanse for 1 or 2 seconds immunity.
    • The design does not need a massive rework of the skills and traits in game.
    • The design is future proof. It doesn't matter the future condition durations or burst, cleansing them will have the same effect.

    Indeed Anet can decide to do nothing but that will not solve this glaring issue.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    Its a pretty stupid comparison to take a build doing big power damage AND "passive" condi damage, and compare it to a build that ONLY does "passive" condi damage. Like....... really?

    Condi builds can use Viper or Grieving and use power weapons as well for high output damage, the guard build use power weapons . Additionally condi builds usually does not apply only one condition, Am i Correct? So if cleanses can work on OWP any cleanse only can remove 2 stacks at once of the unlimited you can have on you.

    You see how ridiculous sounds trying to defend what everybody is saying is broken in any PvP?

    Anet can decide to keep nerfing the condi applications in all the skills in game and get the Ranger treatment (from 3s to 1s 66% duration reduction), power creep the cleanses in game or apply this design.

    I think my suggestion is the most sensible and efficient:

    • You still can apply the bursts as needed. Just keep an eye for the cleanses. No need to rework any skill.
    • Your auto attack damage will still tick as nobody will like to waste a cleanse for 1 or 2 seconds immunity.
    • The design does not need a massive rework of the skills and traits in game.
    • The design is future proof. It doesn't matter the future condition durations or burst, cleansing them will have the same effect.

    Indeed Anet can decide to do nothing but that will not solve this glaring issue.

    Yeah, and power builds can use Viper or Grieving for additional condi damage. So what?

    Oooooh, that's right, nobody does that because damage doesn't just come down to which amulet you equip, it also requires supporting traits, weapons, utilities, runes, etc.

  • Terrorhuz.4695Terrorhuz.4695 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    I did also enjoy the comparison of a torch skill that gives stealth, blind, blast finisher and condi-cleanse as well as burning to 5 targets, to a torch skill that does nothing but burning to 1 target.

    Are you proposing to add stealth to guardian torch and make the throw a 5-target AoE?

    Given the choice, most guardians would take mesmer torch in a heartbeat.

    BLAST FINISHER ON TORCH LMFAO

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    I did also enjoy the comparison of a torch skill that gives stealth, blind, blast finisher and condi-cleanse as well as burning to 5 targets, to a torch skill that does nothing but burning to 1 target.

    Are you proposing to add stealth to guardian torch and make the throw a 5-target AoE?

    Given the choice, most guardians would take mesmer torch in a heartbeat.

    BLAST FINISHER ON TORCH LMFAO

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Prestige

    ??

  • Terrorhuz.4695Terrorhuz.4695 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    I did also enjoy the comparison of a torch skill that gives stealth, blind, blast finisher and condi-cleanse as well as burning to 5 targets, to a torch skill that does nothing but burning to 1 target.

    Are you proposing to add stealth to guardian torch and make the throw a 5-target AoE?

    Given the choice, most guardians would take mesmer torch in a heartbeat.

    BLAST FINISHER ON TORCH LMFAO

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Prestige

    ??

    It has 3s delay, you can't use it to blast anything 'cause by the time blast procs the field is gone. Besides (but that's another matter), as a mesmer you only have access to chaos fields whose utility is questionable at best :( it's a blast on paper only, in practice you don't ever get to blast anything with that

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    I did also enjoy the comparison of a torch skill that gives stealth, blind, blast finisher and condi-cleanse as well as burning to 5 targets, to a torch skill that does nothing but burning to 1 target.

    Are you proposing to add stealth to guardian torch and make the throw a 5-target AoE?

    Given the choice, most guardians would take mesmer torch in a heartbeat.

    BLAST FINISHER ON TORCH LMFAO

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Prestige

    ??

    It has 3s delay, you can't use it to blast anything 'cause by the time blast procs the field is gone. Besides (but that's another matter), as a mesmer you only have access to chaos fields whose utility is questionable at best :( it's a blast on paper only, in practice you don't ever get to blast anything with that

    I mean, blast finisher wasn't the only thing on that list. I listed all of the things that Prestige does. Are you denying that Prestige gives stealth, blind, blast finisher and condi-cleanse as well as burning to 5 targets?

    I stand by my statement that, given the choice on a guardian build, I would ALWAYS pick mesmer-torch over guard-torch if it was an option.

  • Terrorhuz.4695Terrorhuz.4695 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    I did also enjoy the comparison of a torch skill that gives stealth, blind, blast finisher and condi-cleanse as well as burning to 5 targets, to a torch skill that does nothing but burning to 1 target.

    Are you proposing to add stealth to guardian torch and make the throw a 5-target AoE?

    Given the choice, most guardians would take mesmer torch in a heartbeat.

    BLAST FINISHER ON TORCH LMFAO

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Prestige

    ??

    It has 3s delay, you can't use it to blast anything 'cause by the time blast procs the field is gone. Besides (but that's another matter), as a mesmer you only have access to chaos fields whose utility is questionable at best :( it's a blast on paper only, in practice you don't ever get to blast anything with that

    I mean, blast finisher wasn't the only thing on that list. I listed all of the things that Prestige does. Are you denying that Prestige gives stealth, blind, blast finisher and condi-cleanse as well as burning to 5 targets?

    I stand by my statement that, given the choice on a guardian build, I would ALWAYS pick mesmer-torch over guard-torch if it was an option.

    The other things were cool and good and I didn't say anything about them. But torch 5 is an absolute nightmare to use.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    I did also enjoy the comparison of a torch skill that gives stealth, blind, blast finisher and condi-cleanse as well as burning to 5 targets, to a torch skill that does nothing but burning to 1 target.

    Are you proposing to add stealth to guardian torch and make the throw a 5-target AoE?

    Given the choice, most guardians would take mesmer torch in a heartbeat.

    BLAST FINISHER ON TORCH LMFAO

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Prestige

    ??

    It has 3s delay, you can't use it to blast anything 'cause by the time blast procs the field is gone. Besides (but that's another matter), as a mesmer you only have access to chaos fields whose utility is questionable at best :( it's a blast on paper only, in practice you don't ever get to blast anything with that

    I mean, blast finisher wasn't the only thing on that list. I listed all of the things that Prestige does. Are you denying that Prestige gives stealth, blind, blast finisher and condi-cleanse as well as burning to 5 targets?

    I stand by my statement that, given the choice on a guardian build, I would ALWAYS pick mesmer-torch over guard-torch if it was an option.

    The other things were cool and good and I didn't say anything about them

    So what was the point of saying anything at all?

  • Terrorhuz.4695Terrorhuz.4695 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    I did also enjoy the comparison of a torch skill that gives stealth, blind, blast finisher and condi-cleanse as well as burning to 5 targets, to a torch skill that does nothing but burning to 1 target.

    Are you proposing to add stealth to guardian torch and make the throw a 5-target AoE?

    Given the choice, most guardians would take mesmer torch in a heartbeat.

    BLAST FINISHER ON TORCH LMFAO

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Prestige

    ??

    It has 3s delay, you can't use it to blast anything 'cause by the time blast procs the field is gone. Besides (but that's another matter), as a mesmer you only have access to chaos fields whose utility is questionable at best :( it's a blast on paper only, in practice you don't ever get to blast anything with that

    I mean, blast finisher wasn't the only thing on that list. I listed all of the things that Prestige does. Are you denying that Prestige gives stealth, blind, blast finisher and condi-cleanse as well as burning to 5 targets?

    I stand by my statement that, given the choice on a guardian build, I would ALWAYS pick mesmer-torch over guard-torch if it was an option.

    The other things were cool and good and I didn't say anything about them

    So what was the point of saying anything at all?

    For all pratical purposes torch 4 is not a blast finisher, that's it. Didn't say anything about everything else you said about torch 4, which is pretty much on point.

  • Uff this escalated quickly . I'm not sure what I should say.
    First yes you can't clear simply away fire condition but this also applies to nearly all condi builds because they can reapply their condi quickly. Reason for this is the munition system which came partially from PoF but which is not PoF only

    Yes for core Guard in general we talking about torch 4 and the SoJ which are available for all variants.
    Yes torch 4 is only a mini munition system with practically 2 loads(but unblockable).
    SoJ the amount of fire condition you get stacks like crazy from it until the first fire condition run out.

    Condi DH is mostly used because it has also good cc or better pulsing cc with bow 5 and with the trapper rune it getting close the old Mirage jumping out of the stealth cc you and condi overload = kill but I must say it is not this fast like Mirage back in the days. On the other hand the missing stabi is what screw everyone up against it.

    Condi FB has even more munition systems with the tomb 1 and the condi mantra which is nerfed and less cc (but ax 3 and tomb 1-3 ). basically this is the build with the theoretically highest burst in PvP since Soulbeast falls flat through nerfs.


    Condi Weaver since the nerf to might build up it became raw to see it . Yes it use some munition system too which is promodial stance which was nerfed some time ago.
    Condi Tempest well this what I play like others said yes I use fire fields but also my fire overload to do fire condition but I also have access to hard and soft cc with my build so I can people fixate in the fire fields . The point is my skills are slow(AND HAVE BIG ANIMATIONS), I have no munition system(and create a run away effect like SoJ) I need to change attunment when my skills are in CD.

    But yes if you staying still I will take you apart with the same dmg an Condi DH has .(or maybe more)

    The point is those builds works so well because they are besides modification copy of PvE builds which are unerfed or mostly unerfed in PvP.
    Aas a result with start of this season I had in every matchup DHs .

  • Abyssisis.3971Abyssisis.3971 Member ✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    As I said: the easiest is to give a buff which blocks any new incoming conditions for short time when actively cleansed. So if you cleansed burning you will be safe from new incoming burns for some seconds And use the stack system to make the buff longer will be positive for balance as it would reward the player for cleansing the condition bursts. The skill ceiling will be higher as condi builds currently are very forgiving with sets like Trailblazers and Dire in WvW and Rabid and Carrion in sPvP, and after this they will need to be careful when to apply the burst. Hey the same as power builds needs to keep an eye for immunities.

    Change resistance to also prevent the applications of conditions and give condition cleanse resistance. But also change breakstuns to include stability to prevent being perma stunned.

  • Burning could be nerfed in number of stacks, its duration is fine as it is, maybe it could be longer as balance for less stacks. Adding second effect: burning endurance, 1 stack= -1 endurance per second, so 10 stacks= -10 endurance per second, as return, there could be long cooldowns of spells that apply burning and with less stacks it wouldn't be that OP as you can evade spell that will proc burning or just cleanse it.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2021

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    One Wolf Pack well the condi version would be instead ticking once it would tick for the next 4 seconds and staking with following attacks. The current 1K damage tick is well within low side of the bleeds damage you may get from almost any condi build.

    If you don't think a passive OWP for the soulbeast is fine why should it be ticking conditions.

    If the power damage of Soulbest was reduced as a trade-off, and if Cleanse could remove OWP, sure, why not? Being able to do sticky uncleansable OWP damage AND be able to drop 10k rapid-fires and 8k Mauls would be pretty stupid.

    Its a pretty stupid comparison to take a build doing big power damage AND "passive" condi damage, and compare it to a build that ONLY does "passive" condi damage. Like....... really?

    Here is an interesting look at a bit of truth beyond the psychology of these power vs. condi debacles:

    Imagine how much more it would kitten people off, if Maul & WI dealt the same exact damage that they did now, but it happened over the course of 10 seconds. So I hit a guy with Maul into WI and then he tries to run away, only to watch his health pool disappear over the course of 10s as he teleports away around a corner and completely disengages me, but still goes into downstate. There is something about "Getting away but then still dying" that really triggers people. And as much as some would not want to admit this, it is absolutely 100% true.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Burning: [New Effect] If the burns are not cleansed within 1 second the remaining burns will automatically cleanse themselves.

    Everyone is happy-- wait, nevermind, I just described condi weaver.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2021

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Here is an interesting look at a bit of truth beyond the psychology of these power vs. condi debacles:

    Imagine how much more it would kitten people off, if Maul & WI dealt the same exact damage that they did now, but it happened over the course of 10 seconds. So I hit a guy with Maul into WI and then he tries to run away, only to watch his health pool disappear over the course of 10s as he teleports away around a corner and completely disengages me, but still goes into downstate. There is something about "Getting away but then still dying" that really triggers people. And as much as some would not want to admit this, it is absolutely 100% true.

    Agreed some peeps think of condi like "damage already done overtime" but they would not consider the same for power damage because that would be outrageous.

    When the Feb balance patch happened all power damage and sustain was nerfed but not the condi output and damage. As such Conditions are overtuned at the moment and it should be addressed.

    I don't understand why that concept is that is that difficult to grasp.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2021

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Here is an interesting look at a bit of truth beyond the psychology of these power vs. condi debacles:

    Imagine how much more it would kitten people off, if Maul & WI dealt the same exact damage that they did now, but it happened over the course of 10 seconds. So I hit a guy with Maul into WI and then he tries to run away, only to watch his health pool disappear over the course of 10s as he teleports away around a corner and completely disengages me, but still goes into downstate. There is something about "Getting away but then still dying" that really triggers people. And as much as some would not want to admit this, it is absolutely 100% true.

    Agreed some peeps think of condi like "damage already done overtime" but they would not consider the same for power damage because that would be outrageous.

    When the Feb balance patch happened all power damage and sustain was nerfed but not the condi output and damage. As such Conditions are overtuned at the moment and it should be addressed.

    I don't understand why that concept is that is that difficult to grasp.

    Ummmm, he wasn't agreeing with you.

    If Maul did the exact same total damage over 10s rather than instantly, nothing would change with regards Ranger's strength. Infact, if anything, it would become weaker, because it would give people a chance to heal through it. But it would result in a whole lot more people whinging about it.

    While we're on the subject of Ranger: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter's_Call

    Is everyone crying about how OP this is?

    And I already said I'd be fine with Power damage happening over time (as, in fact, it does already on some skills). But you seem to have ignored that.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2021

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Here is an interesting look at a bit of truth beyond the psychology of these power vs. condi debacles:

    Imagine how much more it would kitten people off, if Maul & WI dealt the same exact damage that they did now, but it happened over the course of 10 seconds. So I hit a guy with Maul into WI and then he tries to run away, only to watch his health pool disappear over the course of 10s as he teleports away around a corner and completely disengages me, but still goes into downstate. There is something about "Getting away but then still dying" that really triggers people. And as much as some would not want to admit this, it is absolutely 100% true.

    When the Feb balance patch happened all power damage and sustain was nerfed but not the condi output and damage.

    This is just false...

    As such Conditions are overtuned at the moment and it should be addressed.
    I don't understand why that concept is that is that difficult to grasp.

    Because they aren't.
    Stop conflating burn guards strength with conditions being strong overall.

    If condi was universally strong there would be more builds using them. I see no complaints about condi warrior, condi engi, condi ranger etc etc. Whenever a condi build is strong these threads pop up that conditions are a problem and when asked why often to almost always the build(s) that is a problem is referenced as the reason. Every. Single. Time.

    Complaints about condi due to fire ele, fire ele nerfed, complaintss stop.
    Complaints about condi due to mirage and condi theif, where are they now after the enrfs?
    Complaints about condi due to scourge...would you look at that..

    I mean look at the thread and its title. Is burning abusing or complained about because 7/9 classes have access to it and its being used to wreck people on all of them or is it 1 of those that's causing the issue?

    When burn guard sees some nerfs or falls out the meta /cheese pick the same thing will happen.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Here is an interesting look at a bit of truth beyond the psychology of these power vs. condi debacles:

    Imagine how much more it would kitten people off, if Maul & WI dealt the same exact damage that they did now, but it happened over the course of 10 seconds. So I hit a guy with Maul into WI and then he tries to run away, only to watch his health pool disappear over the course of 10s as he teleports away around a corner and completely disengages me, but still goes into downstate. There is something about "Getting away but then still dying" that really triggers people. And as much as some would not want to admit this, it is absolutely 100% true.

    When the Feb balance patch happened all power damage and sustain was nerfed but not the condi output and damage.

    This is just false...

    As such Conditions are overtuned at the moment and it should be addressed.
    I don't understand why that concept is that is that difficult to grasp.

    Because they aren't.
    Stop conflating burn guards strength with conditions being strong overall.

    If condi was universally strong there would be more builds using them. I see no complaints about condi warrior, condi engi, condi ranger etc etc. Whenever a condi build is strong these threads pop up that conditions are a problem and when asked why often to almost always the build(s) that is a problem is referenced as the reason. Every. Single. Time.

    Complaints about condi due to fire ele, fire ele nerfed, complaintss stop.
    Complaints about condi due to mirage and condi theif, where are they now after the enrfs?
    Complaints about condi due to scourge...would you look at that..

    I mean look at the thread and its title. Is burning abusing or complained about because 7/9 classes have access to it and its being used to wreck people on all of them or is it 1 of those that's causing the issue?

    When burn guard sees some nerfs or falls out the meta /cheese pick the same thing will happen.

    im abusing my 1 burn stack on torch what do you mean.
    it hard carriers, all condis OPOP all hail condis

  • Noah Salazar.5430Noah Salazar.5430 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    take condi clease scrapper healer as duo, you will make usualy enemy team abusing condi usless
    Problem is tho not so many players play support/healer in pvp
    So condi players do as thay want, cuz power players can't take inaf condi clease or thay will drop dmg too much

  • Mauti.3520Mauti.3520 Member ✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    Okay, nerf burn, I am fine with it, just give squishy Guards and Weavers the ability to roast people within 3-4 secs by raw unblockable power damage with enough fallback tools, when pulled of correctly and being properly geared.

    Burn Builds are already gimmicky and one trick pony enough, not defining any meta or existing without any meaningful counterplay. Fire Weaver has been roasted (haha) by balance patch last spring and has never been fixed ever after, Guardians saw their power and gimmicks being stripped away over the course of the last year, resulting in them being pidgeonholed more than ever. And don't get me started on about how much competitively the mesmer class has been deleted or the utter garbage state Condi Ranger is in and has been since 8 years in PvP. What's your point, guys? Shout Warriors vs. Burst Holo vs. D/P Thieves only in PvP? Aight?

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's funny everyone defending guards yet in last month or so for some reason every single match in gold 3/plat 1 has one or 2 trap dh's or burn guard per team hmmmm guess everyone just figured out trap dh or burn guards are just a fun specs right? Their as common as reaper, renegades and ele's now. Basically those 4 classes make up 90% of the players in pvp these days, guess its cuz their all the most fun classes right lol.

  • Mauti.3520Mauti.3520 Member ✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    It's funny everyone defending guards yet in last month or so for some reason every single match in gold 3/plat 1 has one or 2 trap dh's or burn guard per team hmmmm guess everyone just figured out trap dh or burn guards are just a fun specs right? Their as common as reaper, renegades and ele's now. Basically those 4 classes make up 90% of the players in pvp these days, guess its cuz their all the most fun classes right lol.

    Please show us evidence of Burn Guards and Fire Weavers dominating Platinum.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mauti.3520 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    It's funny everyone defending guards yet in last month or so for some reason every single match in gold 3/plat 1 has one or 2 trap dh's or burn guard per team hmmmm guess everyone just figured out trap dh or burn guards are just a fun specs right? Their as common as reaper, renegades and ele's now. Basically those 4 classes make up 90% of the players in pvp these days, guess its cuz their all the most fun classes right lol.

    Please show us evidence of Burn Guards and Fire Weavers dominating Platinum.

    I was in plat 1 for 2 days now in gold 3 three for last 3 and have not had one match without a dh and reaper on both teams and at least a renegade and ele on one of the teams, there's a reason for such but keep pretending lol matters little since the games population has plummeted and is only getting worse due to such and many other reasons.

  • @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Here is an interesting look at a bit of truth beyond the psychology of these power vs. condi debacles:

    Imagine how much more it would kitten people off, if Maul & WI dealt the same exact damage that they did now, but it happened over the course of 10 seconds. So I hit a guy with Maul into WI and then he tries to run away, only to watch his health pool disappear over the course of 10s as he teleports away around a corner and completely disengages me, but still goes into downstate. There is something about "Getting away but then still dying" that really triggers people. And as much as some would not want to admit this, it is absolutely 100% true.

    Agreed some peeps think of condi like "damage already done overtime" but they would not consider the same for power damage because that would be outrageous.

    When the Feb balance patch happened all power damage and sustain was nerfed but not the condi output and damage. As such Conditions are overtuned at the moment and it should be addressed.

    I don't understand why that concept is that is that difficult to grasp.

    Ummmm, he wasn't agreeing with you.

    If Maul did the exact same total damage over 10s rather than instantly, nothing would change with regards Ranger's strength. Infact, if anything, it would become weaker, because it would give people a chance to heal through it. But it would result in a whole lot more people whinging about it.

    While we're on the subject of Ranger: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter's_Call

    Is everyone crying about how OP this is?

    And I already said I'd be fine with Power damage happening over time (as, in fact, it does already on some skills). But you seem to have ignored that.

    What people seem to forget when they start whining about condi doing xxx damage in total is that it's not instant, they go 'zomg 5k in one skill. Op!' because the tooltip said so. Not only can it be healed through by not being instant, but in the case of condi it can be cleansed and entirely negated after someone got hit with it. A more accurate comparison using Maul would be that it did the same damage over time but could be healed through and negated by another skill after you already got slapped. I can already picture the QQ if Maul or WI worked like that.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    at first, any abusive thing in pvp - is part of pvp balance. So if you see burn guard - RUN! Don't try kill that solo. It is pvp, but not low lv pve where u can press 1 and get success.
    So after that you need check, if have 2 member if possible kill burn guard. If no - run too.
    If 3 members do it -is may be possible and u will get luck.

    As for me this i ok, that some class is good balanced, and make some fun for people.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Here is an interesting look at a bit of truth beyond the psychology of these power vs. condi debacles:

    Imagine how much more it would kitten people off, if Maul & WI dealt the same exact damage that they did now, but it happened over the course of 10 seconds. So I hit a guy with Maul into WI and then he tries to run away, only to watch his health pool disappear over the course of 10s as he teleports away around a corner and completely disengages me, but still goes into downstate. There is something about "Getting away but then still dying" that really triggers people. And as much as some would not want to admit this, it is absolutely 100% true.

    Agreed some peeps think of condi like "damage already done overtime" but they would not consider the same for power damage because that would be outrageous.

    When the Feb balance patch happened all power damage and sustain was nerfed but not the condi output and damage. As such Conditions are overtuned at the moment and it should be addressed.

    I don't understand why that concept is that is that difficult to grasp.

    Ummmm, he wasn't agreeing with you.

    If Maul did the exact same total damage over 10s rather than instantly, nothing would change with regards Ranger's strength. Infact, if anything, it would become weaker, because it would give people a chance to heal through it. But it would result in a whole lot more people whinging about it.

    While we're on the subject of Ranger: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter's_Call

    Is everyone crying about how OP this is?

    And I already said I'd be fine with Power damage happening over time (as, in fact, it does already on some skills). But you seem to have ignored that.

    What people seem to forget when they start whining about condi doing xxx damage in total is that it's not instant, they go 'zomg 5k in one skill. Op!' because the tooltip said so. Not only can it be healed through by not being instant, but in the case of condi it can be cleansed and entirely negated after someone got hit with it. A more accurate comparison using Maul would be that it did the same damage over time but could be healed through and negated by another skill after you already got slapped. I can already picture the QQ if Maul or WI worked like that.

    Lmao 5k what? No the issue is when stacks and tick damage are so high AND reapliable with such ease that not only is the damage in the 20k-25k range (sometimes more) but it's also easily reapplied which is the problem as even if u wait for full stacks and lose 50% of ur hp before cleansing they just get reapplied so the just cleanse argument falls flat, not to mention on certain classes their availability promotes braindead spammy gameplay which is bad for the game but also on a class like guard a lot of it is passive lmao. Keep defending this gbage and whatcha everyone who doesn't play these classes simply quit as most have hence the population being nil.

  • @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Here is an interesting look at a bit of truth beyond the psychology of these power vs. condi debacles:

    Imagine how much more it would kitten people off, if Maul & WI dealt the same exact damage that they did now, but it happened over the course of 10 seconds. So I hit a guy with Maul into WI and then he tries to run away, only to watch his health pool disappear over the course of 10s as he teleports away around a corner and completely disengages me, but still goes into downstate. There is something about "Getting away but then still dying" that really triggers people. And as much as some would not want to admit this, it is absolutely 100% true.

    Agreed some peeps think of condi like "damage already done overtime" but they would not consider the same for power damage because that would be outrageous.

    When the Feb balance patch happened all power damage and sustain was nerfed but not the condi output and damage. As such Conditions are overtuned at the moment and it should be addressed.

    I don't understand why that concept is that is that difficult to grasp.

    Ummmm, he wasn't agreeing with you.

    If Maul did the exact same total damage over 10s rather than instantly, nothing would change with regards Ranger's strength. Infact, if anything, it would become weaker, because it would give people a chance to heal through it. But it would result in a whole lot more people whinging about it.

    While we're on the subject of Ranger: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter's_Call

    Is everyone crying about how OP this is?

    And I already said I'd be fine with Power damage happening over time (as, in fact, it does already on some skills). But you seem to have ignored that.

    What people seem to forget when they start whining about condi doing xxx damage in total is that it's not instant, they go 'zomg 5k in one skill. Op!' because the tooltip said so. Not only can it be healed through by not being instant, but in the case of condi it can be cleansed and entirely negated after someone got hit with it. A more accurate comparison using Maul would be that it did the same damage over time but could be healed through and negated by another skill after you already got slapped. I can already picture the QQ if Maul or WI worked like that.

    Lmao 5k what? No the issue is when stacks and tick damage are so high AND reapliable with such ease that not only is the damage in the 20k-25k range (sometimes more) but it's also easily reapplied which is the problem as even if u wait for full stacks and lose 50% of ur hp before cleansing they just get reapplied so the just cleanse argument falls flat, not to mention on certain classes their availability promotes braindead spammy gameplay which is bad for the game but also on a class like guard a lot of it is passive lmao. Keep defending this gbage and whatcha everyone who doesn't play these classes simply quit as most have hence the population being nil.

    5k per skill use was the example, not when everything is stacked on you. And in those cases you already ate the skills that applied or are continuing to apply them so chances are you would have died much earlier if it was a power build. The cleanse argument doesn't falls flat if you waste them, and that's not the fault of the cleanses. Learn when to cleanse as you learn when to block and dodge, not every single attack has to be avoided and you have to learn what to save your resources for.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Here is an interesting look at a bit of truth beyond the psychology of these power vs. condi debacles:

    Imagine how much more it would kitten people off, if Maul & WI dealt the same exact damage that they did now, but it happened over the course of 10 seconds. So I hit a guy with Maul into WI and then he tries to run away, only to watch his health pool disappear over the course of 10s as he teleports away around a corner and completely disengages me, but still goes into downstate. There is something about "Getting away but then still dying" that really triggers people. And as much as some would not want to admit this, it is absolutely 100% true.

    Agreed some peeps think of condi like "damage already done overtime" but they would not consider the same for power damage because that would be outrageous.

    When the Feb balance patch happened all power damage and sustain was nerfed but not the condi output and damage. As such Conditions are overtuned at the moment and it should be addressed.

    I don't understand why that concept is that is that difficult to grasp.

    Ummmm, he wasn't agreeing with you.

    If Maul did the exact same total damage over 10s rather than instantly, nothing would change with regards Ranger's strength. Infact, if anything, it would become weaker, because it would give people a chance to heal through it. But it would result in a whole lot more people whinging about it.

    While we're on the subject of Ranger: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter's_Call

    Is everyone crying about how OP this is?

    And I already said I'd be fine with Power damage happening over time (as, in fact, it does already on some skills). But you seem to have ignored that.

    What people seem to forget when they start whining about condi doing xxx damage in total is that it's not instant, they go 'zomg 5k in one skill. Op!' because the tooltip said so. Not only can it be healed through by not being instant, but in the case of condi it can be cleansed and entirely negated after someone got hit with it. A more accurate comparison using Maul would be that it did the same damage over time but could be healed through and negated by another skill after you already got slapped. I can already picture the QQ if Maul or WI worked like that.

    Lmao 5k what? No the issue is when stacks and tick damage are so high AND reapliable with such ease that not only is the damage in the 20k-25k range (sometimes more) but it's also easily reapplied which is the problem as even if u wait for full stacks and lose 50% of ur hp before cleansing they just get reapplied so the just cleanse argument falls flat, not to mention on certain classes their availability promotes braindead spammy gameplay which is bad for the game but also on a class like guard a lot of it is passive lmao. Keep defending this gbage and whatcha everyone who doesn't play these classes simply quit as most have hence the population being nil.

    5k per skill use was the example, not when everything is stacked on you. And in those cases you already ate the skills that applied or are continuing to apply them so chances are you would have died much earlier if it was a power build. The cleanse argument doesn't falls flat if you waste them, and that's not the fault of the cleanses. Learn when to cleanse as you learn when to block and dodge, not every single attack has to be avoided and you have to learn what to save your resources for.

    U do realize a lot of burns guards stack are passive right, waiting to cleanse until u have stacks on u does nothing as they will just be reapplied and cleansing as soon as u get afflicted burns ur cleanse far to early and unlike the burn stacks for guards classes don't have constant reapliable cleanses. U say block and dodge lol ya that will definitely keep the guard from reapplying stacks. That's like saying geez trapper rune DH's arnt spammy brain dead builds either as u just avoid the traps lmao cuz u kno the can't just reapply the traps on a way to low of a cd lol. The game needs huge reworks to a lot of brain dead passive spammy cheese builds and guards/dh are included in that group. U cant tell me u haven't noticed trap dh/burn guards in every match and somtimes 2 on a team. I got to plat as a power splb and thru gold 3 and plat 1 these, reaper/scourge, renegades and ele's where way way more played than any other class, and for a reason.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Here is an interesting look at a bit of truth beyond the psychology of these power vs. condi debacles:

    Imagine how much more it would kitten people off, if Maul & WI dealt the same exact damage that they did now, but it happened over the course of 10 seconds. So I hit a guy with Maul into WI and then he tries to run away, only to watch his health pool disappear over the course of 10s as he teleports away around a corner and completely disengages me, but still goes into downstate. There is something about "Getting away but then still dying" that really triggers people. And as much as some would not want to admit this, it is absolutely 100% true.

    Agreed some peeps think of condi like "damage already done overtime" but they would not consider the same for power damage because that would be outrageous.

    When the Feb balance patch happened all power damage and sustain was nerfed but not the condi output and damage. As such Conditions are overtuned at the moment and it should be addressed.

    I don't understand why that concept is that is that difficult to grasp.

    Ummmm, he wasn't agreeing with you.

    If Maul did the exact same total damage over 10s rather than instantly, nothing would change with regards Ranger's strength. Infact, if anything, it would become weaker, because it would give people a chance to heal through it. But it would result in a whole lot more people whinging about it.

    While we're on the subject of Ranger: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter's_Call

    Is everyone crying about how OP this is?

    And I already said I'd be fine with Power damage happening over time (as, in fact, it does already on some skills). But you seem to have ignored that.

    What people seem to forget when they start whining about condi doing xxx damage in total is that it's not instant, they go 'zomg 5k in one skill. Op!' because the tooltip said so. Not only can it be healed through by not being instant, but in the case of condi it can be cleansed and entirely negated after someone got hit with it. A more accurate comparison using Maul would be that it did the same damage over time but could be healed through and negated by another skill after you already got slapped. I can already picture the QQ if Maul or WI worked like that.

    Lmao 5k what? No the issue is when stacks and tick damage are so high AND reapliable with such ease that not only is the damage in the 20k-25k range (sometimes more) but it's also easily reapplied which is the problem as even if u wait for full stacks and lose 50% of ur hp before cleansing they just get reapplied so the just cleanse argument falls flat, not to mention on certain classes their availability promotes braindead spammy gameplay which is bad for the game but also on a class like guard a lot of it is passive lmao. Keep defending this gbage and whatcha everyone who doesn't play these classes simply quit as most have hence the population being nil.

    5k per skill use was the example, not when everything is stacked on you. And in those cases you already ate the skills that applied or are continuing to apply them so chances are you would have died much earlier if it was a power build. The cleanse argument doesn't falls flat if you waste them, and that's not the fault of the cleanses. Learn when to cleanse as you learn when to block and dodge, not every single attack has to be avoided and you have to learn what to save your resources for.

    U do realize a lot of burns guards stack are passive right, waiting to cleanse until u have stacks on u does nothing as they will just be reapplied and cleansing as soon as u get afflicted burns ur cleanse far to early and unlike the burn stacks for guards classes don't have constant reapliable cleanses. U say block and dodge lol ya that will definitely keep the guard from reapplying stacks. That's like saying geez trapper rune DH's arnt spammy brain dead builds either as u just avoid the traps lmao cuz u kno the can't just reapply the traps on a way to low of a cd lol. The game needs huge reworks to a lot of brain dead passive spammy cheese builds and guards/dh are included in that group. U cant tell me u haven't noticed trap dh/burn guards in every match and somtimes 2 on a team. I got to plat as a power splb and thru gold 3 and plat 1 these, reaper/scourge, renegades and ele's where way way more played than any other class, and for a reason.

    And do you know how that "passive" damage happens?

    Right, the guardian has to hit you 3 times, and that triggers 1 stack of burning which will do a total (not per-tick, total) damage of roughly 1500-2000.

    Do you think doing 1500-2000 for hitting an opponent 3 times is too much?

    How much damage will a spellbreaker, or any other class, do with 3 hits? In many cases its more than 1500-2000.

    Your argument basically comes down to "I think its unfair that guardians do damage when they hit me". Yikes.

    (And I'm being quite generous there, the baseline for the Trapper-DH build is 1569 damage, to get up to 2000 requires alot of might/vuln to be in play).

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    And do you know how that "passive" damage happens?

    Right, the guardian has to hit you 3 times, and that triggers 1 stack of burning which will do a total (not per-tick, total) damage of roughly 1500-2000.

    Do you think doing 1500-2000 for hitting an opponent 3 times is too much?

    How much damage will a spellbreaker, or any other class, do with 3 hits? In many cases its more than 1500-2000.

    Your argument basically comes down to "I think its unfair that guardians do damage when they hit me". Yikes.

    Guardian already did 10K with the 3 hits and additionally you get the burning stack for 2K which can not dodge, block or evade.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    And do you know how that "passive" damage happens?

    Right, the guardian has to hit you 3 times, and that triggers 1 stack of burning which will do a total (not per-tick, total) damage of roughly 1500-2000.

    Do you think doing 1500-2000 for hitting an opponent 3 times is too much?

    How much damage will a spellbreaker, or any other class, do with 3 hits? In many cases its more than 1500-2000.

    Your argument basically comes down to "I think its unfair that guardians do damage when they hit me". Yikes.

    Guardian already did 10K with the 3 hits and additionally you get the burning stack for 2K which can not dodge, block or evade.

    LOL what condi-guard build is hitting for 10k power?

    Go on, link the build.

    The only guardian build that has any hope of doing that much power damage in that many hits is a full-glass meme-zerker hammer build.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    LOL what condi-guard build is hitting for 10k power?

    Go on, link the build.

    One with Grieving my point is not if the build is playable or not for low skilled, my point is it is possible to do as much damage in power as condi. And condition damage is something you can not keep removing constantly.

    We talked about this comparing condi damage to ticks from One Wolf Pack.

    My point is Anet does not need to nerf the condi damage, just add a buff so when a condition is cleansed that specific condition can not be re-applied for short time.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    LOL what condi-guard build is hitting for 10k power?

    Go on, link the build.

    One with Grieving my point is not if the build is playable or not for low skilled, my point is it is possible to do as much damage in power as condi. And condition damage is something you can not keep removing constantly.

    We talked about this comparing condi damage to ticks from One Wolf Pack.

    My point is Anet does not need to nerf the condi damage, just add a buff so when a condition is cleansed that specific condition can not be re-applied for short time.

    Even Grieving won't hit that hard. Because you're not able to take the Power traits in Radiance/Zeal if you're already taking the Burning traits.

    And if you drop the burning traits, you won't be doing that much burning damage.

    You're debating an imaginary build that nobody plays with an impossible trait setup.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    And do you know how that "passive" damage happens?

    Right, the guardian has to hit you 3 times, and that triggers 1 stack of burning which will do a total (not per-tick, total) damage of roughly 1500-2000.

    Do you think doing 1500-2000 for hitting an opponent 3 times is too much?

    How much damage will a spellbreaker, or any other class, do with 3 hits? In many cases its more than 1500-2000.

    Your argument basically comes down to "I think its unfair that guardians do damage when they hit me". Yikes.

    Guardian already did 10K with the 3 hits and additionally you get the burning stack for 2K which can not dodge, block or evade.

    LOL what condi-guard build is hitting for 10k power?

    Go on, link the build.

    The only guardian build that has any hope of doing that much power damage in that many hits is a full-glass meme-zerker hammer build.

    Did u seriously just say passive damage happens, what does that even mean?
    Yeah passive damage happens but things like how often, for how much damage, the duration and is it aoe are all important factors no?
    The issue is on top of high passive damage aplication it also occurs often and also in combination with the guards actual skills.
    If I catch a war burst on someone the were caught off guard or made a mistake and didnt avoid highly telegraphed cc's or have burned their blocks or stunbreaks and ate the burst, that in no way can be compared to how burn guards or even trap spamming burn guards inflict their damage. Guard/dh need a decent rework with nerfs and buffs to delete the garbage braindead playstyle that they promote currently, and their not the only class that needs thos either. As I said games pvp population is very low for reasons and it's not cuz people are too busy, especially in times like were experiencing now.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    And do you know how that "passive" damage happens?

    Right, the guardian has to hit you 3 times, and that triggers 1 stack of burning which will do a total (not per-tick, total) damage of roughly 1500-2000.

    Do you think doing 1500-2000 for hitting an opponent 3 times is too much?

    How much damage will a spellbreaker, or any other class, do with 3 hits? In many cases its more than 1500-2000.

    Your argument basically comes down to "I think its unfair that guardians do damage when they hit me". Yikes.

    Guardian already did 10K with the 3 hits and additionally you get the burning stack for 2K which can not dodge, block or evade.

    LOL what condi-guard build is hitting for 10k power?

    Go on, link the build.

    The only guardian build that has any hope of doing that much power damage in that many hits is a full-glass meme-zerker hammer build.

    Did u seriously just say passive damage happens, what does that even mean?
    Yeah passive damage happens but things like how often, for how much damage, the duration and is it aoe are all important factors no?
    The issue is on top of high passive damage aplication it also occurs often and also in combination with the guards actual skills.
    If I catch a war burst on someone the were caught off guard or made a mistake and didnt avoid highly telegraphed cc's or have burned their blocks or stunbreaks and ate the burst, that in no way can be compared to how burn guards or even trap spamming burn guards inflict their damage. Guard/dh need a decent rework with nerfs and buffs to delete the garbage braindead playstyle that they promote currently, and their not the only class that needs thos either. As I said games pvp population is very low for reasons and it's not cuz people are too busy, especially in times like were experiencing now.

    I mean, I listed how often and the exact damage that happens in the post.

    But since you can't read, I'll post it again.

    Every 3 hits = 1500-2000 damage. (And that's assuming Virtues, on other builds it is Every 5 hits)

    How much damage does any other class do every 3 hits?

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    And do you know how that "passive" damage happens?

    Right, the guardian has to hit you 3 times, and that triggers 1 stack of burning which will do a total (not per-tick, total) damage of roughly 1500-2000.

    Do you think doing 1500-2000 for hitting an opponent 3 times is too much?

    How much damage will a spellbreaker, or any other class, do with 3 hits? In many cases its more than 1500-2000.

    Your argument basically comes down to "I think its unfair that guardians do damage when they hit me". Yikes.

    Guardian already did 10K with the 3 hits and additionally you get the burning stack for 2K which can not dodge, block or evade.

    LOL what condi-guard build is hitting for 10k power?

    Go on, link the build.

    The only guardian build that has any hope of doing that much power damage in that many hits is a full-glass meme-zerker hammer build.

    Did u seriously just say passive damage happens, what does that even mean?
    Yeah passive damage happens but things like how often, for how much damage, the duration and is it aoe are all important factors no?
    The issue is on top of high passive damage aplication it also occurs often and also in combination with the guards actual skills.
    If I catch a war burst on someone the were caught off guard or made a mistake and didnt avoid highly telegraphed cc's or have burned their blocks or stunbreaks and ate the burst, that in no way can be compared to how burn guards or even trap spamming burn guards inflict their damage. Guard/dh need a decent rework with nerfs and buffs to delete the garbage braindead playstyle that they promote currently, and their not the only class that needs thos either. As I said games pvp population is very low for reasons and it's not cuz people are too busy, especially in times like were experiencing now.

    I mean, I listed how often and the exact damage that happens in the post.

    But since you can't read, I'll post it again.

    Every 3 hits = 1500-2000 damage. (And that's assuming Virtues, on other builds it is Every 5 hits)

    How much damage does any other class do every 3 hits?

    U are being disingenuous so no point in furthering the discussion. If u are doing 2k damage over 3 hits ur either lying or a very bad guard. If left unchecked for a very short time a burn guard can do 20k just in burn tics alone lmao, u act like no one has experienced how much damage a burn guard or trap dh can do just by spamming their skills. I refer u to the experience of a new guard player that mains mesmer who recently just posted a thread regarding the braindead spammy but highly effective playstyle of guard/ trap dh lol. I believe ur already defending guards in that new thread ad well lol

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2021

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    And do you know how that "passive" damage happens?

    Right, the guardian has to hit you 3 times, and that triggers 1 stack of burning which will do a total (not per-tick, total) damage of roughly 1500-2000.

    Do you think doing 1500-2000 for hitting an opponent 3 times is too much?

    How much damage will a spellbreaker, or any other class, do with 3 hits? In many cases its more than 1500-2000.

    Your argument basically comes down to "I think its unfair that guardians do damage when they hit me". Yikes.

    Guardian already did 10K with the 3 hits and additionally you get the burning stack for 2K which can not dodge, block or evade.

    LOL what condi-guard build is hitting for 10k power?

    Go on, link the build.

    The only guardian build that has any hope of doing that much power damage in that many hits is a full-glass meme-zerker hammer build.

    Did u seriously just say passive damage happens, what does that even mean?
    Yeah passive damage happens but things like how often, for how much damage, the duration and is it aoe are all important factors no?
    The issue is on top of high passive damage aplication it also occurs often and also in combination with the guards actual skills.
    If I catch a war burst on someone the were caught off guard or made a mistake and didnt avoid highly telegraphed cc's or have burned their blocks or stunbreaks and ate the burst, that in no way can be compared to how burn guards or even trap spamming burn guards inflict their damage. Guard/dh need a decent rework with nerfs and buffs to delete the garbage braindead playstyle that they promote currently, and their not the only class that needs thos either. As I said games pvp population is very low for reasons and it's not cuz people are too busy, especially in times like were experiencing now.

    I mean, I listed how often and the exact damage that happens in the post.

    But since you can't read, I'll post it again.

    Every 3 hits = 1500-2000 damage. (And that's assuming Virtues, on other builds it is Every 5 hits)

    How much damage does any other class do every 3 hits?

    U are being disingenuous so no point in furthering the discussion. If u are doing 2k damage over 3 hits ur either lying or a very bad guard. If left unchecked for a very short time a burn guard can do 20k just in burn tics alone lmao, u act like no one has experienced how much damage a burn guard or trap dh can do just by spamming their skills. I refer u to the experience of a new guard player that mains mesmer who recently just posted a thread regarding the braindead spammy but highly effective playstyle of guard/ trap dh lol. I believe ur already defending guards in that new thread ad well lol

    And how many times does the guard have to hit you to reach 20k damage? (Here, I'll help, the answer is 30)

    And if another build hit you that many times, how much damage would it do? (Here, I'll help the answer is probably more than 20k)

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    My point is Anet does not need to nerf the condi damage, just add a buff so when a condition is cleansed that specific condition can not be re-applied for short time.

    Lets add a buff that does the same for power damage while we are at it.
    I hate that after I have used my defensive skills my opponent can just keep hitting me.