Thieves ruin WvW - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Thieves ruin WvW

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  • @coro.3176 said:

    @Sviel.7493 said:
    Rather than adding a new usurping mechanic, why not just give stealth traps a reveal that is unique from player reveals?

    Which is...technically a new usurping mechanic, but w/e q_q

    Yes! We can call it super-reveal. And then deadeye can get a new elite skill that counters super-reveal and applies super-stealth. Then we can get a new trap that removes super-stealth and applies super-mega-reveal. And then deadeye can get a new trait that counters super-mega-reveal and applies ULTIMATE STEALTH, which removes them from sight and prevents them from interacting with other players until anet figures out how to make stealth counterplay work.

    :)

    WvW™ - where you find more Red Rings of Death than an Xbox repair facility.

  • Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2018

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:
    The stealth protects them by giving them a needed buff to damage resistance to protect them from AoE spam, and to break targeting of moves that will kill them. Also remember that a thief that is perma stealth has several major vulnerabilities. Condi, cc, and limited escape options.

    If they are perma stealth then they do not have those vulnerabilities. Condi is cleared very easily by SE, Shadowstep and Blinding Powder can get them out of CC, and stealth is the ideal escape option.

    @oOStaticOo.9467 said:
    Thieves still have Evades and Dodges. Not to mention if you use the right food you basically get an extra dodge out of it. Top that with Mobility and Thieves have plenty of defense outside of Stealth. Stealth should be used for scouting not attacking. Stealth is a stupid gimmick that is heavily abused.

    DE has no more dodges than any other profession. Weapon sets that incorporate evades don't work with DE against competent opponents, especially without the added instant shadowstep from Steal. The only viable defense DE has outside of stealth is Rifle 4, and that's only against opponents with no ranged pressure and limited gap closers so...Warriors/Necromancers only?

    How do you think a DE would fare in a melee-only, toe-to-toe, no-stealth battle against an Engi, Warrior, Guard, Rev, Necro, or Ranger (And even eles both FA and S/D brawlers)? It would lose every time in its current state. I get salt whispers all the time from the melee-professions after they get kited/outplayed - saying I am "abusing range" on my non-SA DE. These same people complaining wouldn't think twice about how laughably underpowered DE is without range or stealth....

    They get cleanse from cloak, but the priority of it is not good and it cleanses one every second. If the DE relies on that, he will be realing unless hes packed healing power... Which not a lot of people do. As far as I know, Im the only one who grabs it.

    There is Sword which can do some damage on defensive playing. A Deadeye can hold their own in melee. But if if it drags on to long then yeah. Even then, without acrobatics to augment sword and their endurance regrn, they wont lasy long if pressured.

    Anyways, you can tell people to dive, pull, or cc them all day. They won't leave their meta builds any time soon.

  • Gondolph.7201Gondolph.7201 Member ✭✭
    edited September 26, 2018

    Thanks guys for the lot of comments. It shows that many see the same problem. I like the simple idea to make the "stealth disruption trap" better, since currently it has just no use anymore. And we will try probably the idea with the fighter shout "on my mark". However The DE`s stealth still feels to me overpowered INSIDE of castles.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2018

    @Gondolph.7201 said:
    Thanks guys for the lot of comments. It shows that many see the same problem. I like the simple idea to make the "stealth disruption trap" better, since currently it has just no use anymore. And we will try probably the idea with the fighter shout "on my mark". However The DE`s stealth still feels to me overpowered INSIDE of castles.

    thank you for the warning, we will be prepared!

    inside your keep that shout wont do much, because the deadeyes will be defensive so they will just wait in stealth for an elite charge if you have people that can kill the deadeye during the reveal. its better if you lets say want to take a camp and a deadeye is defending it. IMO rangers are the best to fight deadeyes in a keep. but no matter what you bring, you have to suprise or bait the deadeye. if you really want to force them out and have enough people then build groups of scrappers+rangers/mesmer/thieves and spread out spamming reveals. the scrappers allways need some 'killer' with them as they themselves can only reveal not kill the deadeye in that time. if you cannot cover enough area however, then your just wasting time trying to force it because the deadeye will see the single scrapper coming and can stay out of its range.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Player.9621 said:
    they need to remove the ability for them to stealth from anyone they have damaged
    that way they can still stealth from everyone else but the person they tried to gank will be able to retalliate

    Then what will you replace the Shadow Arts trait line with?

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2018

    @Gondolph.7201 said:
    my suggestion on this.
    Thieves should loose %s of hiding time inside wvw buildings over time. After , say, 20 minutes their hiding time should continuously decrease. Just to give them some balance.

    just make it impossible to hide in towers/keeps aslong the timer is still on npc.
    simple solution and so effective.

    every1 will leave the keep/tower at that point no point sticking around when every1 can see you.

    you people always wanna touch the classes it self while solution isnt touching the class.
    yes DE stealth is insane and kitten(yes i play thief my self) but like mentioned before DE without stealth is a handicapted ranger.
    anyway as i said just put perma reveal buff up on just taken keeps/towers like the dots show up on map, so thief/mesmer cant stealth and u can just go to the dots.

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:
    Sacrificing a utility JUST for thieves is insane imo.

    Isn't that how these things always go?
    OP class can be countered if you just use this, and this, and this...
    Oh and just dodge

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Player.9621 said:
    they need to remove the ability for them to stealth from anyone they have damaged
    that way they can still stealth from everyone else but the person they tried to gank will be able to retalliate

    Then what will you replace the Shadow Arts trait line with?

    There is a thread with my name with the idea of stealth from shadow magic (thieves, rangers, blasting smoke) only works with enemies that are up to 450 units (distance used as an example could be less) . Enemies closer than that can see the thief although is not revealed.

    That would balance the stealth for thief once for all. And also it might open a door for the thief to be desired in squads, as the mesmer could not use stealth for the pushes anymore.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2018

    "We Learn
    From
    Failure
    Nor From Success"

    "If You Do
    Nothing There
    Will Be No
    Results"

    Thief is designed to not learn from failure. They also are designed to not make mistakes from time to time and to avoid making mistakes at all. What make matter worse is how Anet continual response to thief toxicity to the game

    They Tolerate It

    They Support It

    They Do Nothing

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Player.9621 said:
    they need to remove the ability for them to stealth from anyone they have damaged
    that way they can still stealth from everyone else but the person they tried to gank will be able to retalliate

    Then what will you replace the Shadow Arts trait line with?

    There is a thread with my name with the idea of stealth from shadow magic (thieves, rangers, blasting smoke) only works with enemies that are up to 450 units (distance used as an example could be less) . Enemies closer than that can see the thief although is not revealed.

    That would balance the stealth for thief once for all. And also it might open a door for the thief to be desired in squads, as the mesmer could not use stealth for the pushes anymore.

    That actually doesn't sound bad as long as Shadow Arts was retooled to be sustainable in combat.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • I still don't know how people counter backstab. It's kill you one hit and you don't see when it coming. You don't even have any idea that thief is close. :)

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2018

    @Sylosi.6503 said:

    @Noha.3749 said:
    But thieves are high risk & high reward.

    Nah, thief is low risk.

    I remember a bit of some video that Sinderer guy put out that illustrated why, showed some thief trying to gank him, the thief failed, the thief then proceeded to shadowstep / bow 5 off into the distance, but he got caught because Sinderer plays thief so was able to catch him, but if he was on any other class that thief would have got away, so unpunished for playing bad / getting outplayed, it totally breaks fundamental game concepts like risk vs reward, which is of course why thief has been so popular for the entire game roaming, it is ezmode in something like WvW.

    +1

    (posted 2012-10-16)
    https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/What-is-not-overpowered-about-a-thief

  • Noha.3749Noha.3749 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2018

    i fail to se how a post from 2012 is gonna prova a point.

    Unless you play Daredevil you still got 2 dodges just like anyone, same health as an elementalist (lowest ingame) and almost only ACTIVE defensive abilities.

    Alot of professions right now gets carried by a bunch of passive lifesavers in their builds. Allowing for way more mistakes and missplays to be had.

    Ofcourse a player that´s used to be able to missplay and come out alive will get completely dumped on when playing a thief, and probably get dumped on by thief players. Most likely because adapting to a reactive playstyle instead of a proactive playstyle.

    Keep in mind, i am by no means deffending riflethief.
    Just the (relatively)viable and (relatively)fair other thiefbuilds out there.

    A Proactive player will most of the times beat a Reactive player.
    The thief class needs you to play a Proactive playstyle due to few/none passive lifesavers.
    Alot of other classes does fine playing a reactive playstyle.

    Thieves Defense is based on being proactive, making use of positioning and timing. Thieves kits relies on you adapting to the playstyle. You dont have a bunch of invulns, blocks, aegis, resistances etc. You got evades and mobility.

    It is harder to time a dodge than channeling a block for 2 seconds.
    Moving away from the damage has its upsides just as tunneling through it with buildt in defense. Both has its uses in different situations.

  • @Sunapollo.9152 said:
    How about making a “invisible dimension” such that if you are also invisible then you can see the other invisible players in the same dimension?

    would completely kill mesmer veil plays, which I think is the last bastion of good, organized team-play reminiscent of core GW2.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2018

    I read the thread, I see all the upvotes, I cry inside.

    Hiding in enemy keeps and towers as thieves and mesmers used to be a well praised tactic a few years ago, not only that but using a whole zerg for them would have been considored laughable for how well they distracted the zerg from thier goals.... how times have changed.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2018

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    I read the thread, I see all the upvotes, I cry inside.

    Hiding in enemy keeps and towers as thieves and mesmers used to be a well praised tactic a few years ago, not only that but using a whole zerg for them would have been considored laughable for how well they distracted the zerg from thier goals.... how times have changed.

    IT still is, the current issue is how stealth traps are useless if a thief triggers them, plus game sync isnt the best on stealth some players will barelly see the thief comming out of stealth while the sync on going on stealth is more accurate, so that gives like 1-2 sec max to actually try to kill it, after he triggers the stealth trap.

    Maybe stealth trap needs a stronger effect.

  • @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

    No. Stealth is a major part of thiefs defenses, along with their mobility. Remove it, and you'll have to compensate them. Which you probably wont like.

    The stealth protects them by giving them a needed buff to damage resistance to protect them from AoE spam, and to break targeting of moves that will kill them. Also remember that a thief that is perma stealth has several major vulnerabilities. Condi, cc, and limited escape options.

    Then why my core power necro does not have stealths, mobility, evades, block etc? Core power necro needs them too. ((Any top necro player could 1v1 with core power necro vs deadeye?))

  • @Pelto.9364 said:

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

    No. Stealth is a major part of thiefs defenses, along with their mobility. Remove it, and you'll have to compensate them. Which you probably wont like.

    The stealth protects them by giving them a needed buff to damage resistance to protect them from AoE spam, and to break targeting of moves that will kill them. Also remember that a thief that is perma stealth has several major vulnerabilities. Condi, cc, and limited escape options.

    Then why my core power necro does not have stealths, mobility, evades, block etc? Core power necro needs them too. ((Any top necro player could 1v1 with core power necro vs deadeye?))

    because necro has other means of protecting themselves and staying alive.

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2018

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    Tell your warriors to run "On my Mark" it has multiple charges and if they Shadow Meld to remove the reveal you can simply use it again until they run out. Most of these issues could be prevented if people were a bit smarter about what they are doing. Thieves that hide can often make use of things like line of sight, a concept 5 levels above what the average WvW player could ever grasp

    Yep. A Couple of warriors running On My Mark , used in conjunction with a tight knit group (ie rotating the use of the skill and having ranged users ready to fire on reveal or people with ports to port to target) will see most DE's die or flee.

    A lot of this gets back to people not wanting to trait Utilities that do not just add more to damage. When the very first reveals released there were all manner of complaints about stealth. There are always complaints about stealth and this BEFORE smeld yet man did not trait those reveals. The excuse used then was "There are better skills to use then reveal as the reveals take away from my damage".

    Funny how they were not complaining about stealth back when there was very little reward but all the same risk. Demanding a class gets nerfed just damages the game even more to the point people stop playing when their favorite classes become unplayable.

  • Duckota.4769Duckota.4769 Member ✭✭✭

    Tbh I play some deadeye thief. Backstab 1 shot build. Its fun. Die a lot more than people here may think by picking targets that look juicy only for them to hit some sick i-frame skills, get some distance, turn around and clap back. I do think it's a bit strong. Not the stealth itself. I have no problem with permanent stealth outside of objectives. The burst damage immediately out of stealth is probably a bit much though. I crit some guy last night for 16k+1.5k from sigil of air and if he lived that I probably had a 4-6k heartseeker behind it. Not very fun on his end I'm sure. I'm not sure on the solution to the damage out of stealth. I think permanent stealth can stay outside of keeps and be okay if the burst out of it goes away, but I'd recommend adding a tactic option to unstealth people and apply a debuff that prevents stealth for x amount of time. Something juicy like 5 minutes would even be fine. Then again this is giving up something just to counter 2 classes.

  • WJHB.8130WJHB.8130 Member ✭✭

    QQ Suck it up buttercup (:

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2018

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Adamarc.7463 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:
    Sacrificing a utility JUST for thieves is insane imo.

    Most DE builds are so dependent on Stealth, even just for a few seconds, that they are required to use Shadow Meld as their elite in case of Reveal.

    Just shows how badly they are designed for WvW.

    A bad design because a DE is pigeon holed into an elite skill or for some other reason? Any suggestions for a replacement?

    Cough

    Anything based on sustained stealth and/or capable of sustained stealth and safe burst damage is literally impossible to balance and make fun to play as/against based on how the combat in this game works.

    The idea of more stealth on the thief, especially as a ranged burst damage dealer, never should have made it past the early stages of the drawing board.

    The casuals need it, to overperform their capabilities as casuals.

    It is a game for casuals in 1st place :\, that why i even doubt Anet will improve stealth mechanics.

  • Sleepwalker.1398Sleepwalker.1398 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So much complains for DE yet no one seems to have any issue with condi mirages in wvw.

  • googel.3278googel.3278 Member ✭✭✭

    thieves and mesmers are the ultimate abomination to the game.

  • Sylosi.6503Sylosi.6503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2018

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Adamarc.7463 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:
    Sacrificing a utility JUST for thieves is insane imo.

    Most DE builds are so dependent on Stealth, even just for a few seconds, that they are required to use Shadow Meld as their elite in case of Reveal.

    Just shows how badly they are designed for WvW.

    A bad design because a DE is pigeon holed into an elite skill or for some other reason? Any suggestions for a replacement?

    Cough

    Anything based on sustained stealth and/or capable of sustained stealth and safe burst damage is literally impossible to balance and make fun to play as/against based on how the combat in this game works.

    The idea of more stealth on the thief, especially as a ranged burst damage dealer, never should have made it past the early stages of the drawing board.

    The casuals need it, to overperform their capabilities as casuals.

    As opposed to non-casuals who need a game that aims for them, is full of passives, is largely slow paced and is an imbalanced cheesefest where the meta cheese carries very, very hard and a game mode that is competitively dismal, to "overperform their capabilities".

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:
    because necro has other means of protecting themselves and staying alive.

    Name all of them.

  • @geist.4126 said:

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:
    because necro has other means of protecting themselves and staying alive.

    Name all of them.

    while I'm not an expert on necro stuff, one majorr thing I can list from ontopp of my head (applies to core necro and reaper) - death shroud
    which is another hp bar ontop of already highest hp pool in the game.

    scourge replaces that for barrier which is another defensive mechanic.

    I'd let someone more knowledgeable to list rest of them tho.
    (but basing on my experience necros in wvw does not seem to have issues surviving when visible, as opposed to thiefs - I once tried no-stealth evade stacked roaming build and guess what - it didn't work)

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2018

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

    @Pelto.9364 said:

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

    No. Stealth is a major part of thiefs defenses, along with their mobility. Remove it, and you'll have to compensate them. Which you probably wont like.

    The stealth protects them by giving them a needed buff to damage resistance to protect them from AoE spam, and to break targeting of moves that will kill them. Also remember that a thief that is perma stealth has several major vulnerabilities. Condi, cc, and limited escape options.

    Then why my core power necro does not have stealths, mobility, evades, block etc? Core power necro needs them too. ((Any top necro player could 1v1 with core power necro vs deadeye?))

    because necro has other means of protecting themselves and staying alive.

    "Constantly having to compromise and sacrifice what
    you want in order to meet the expectations of extroverts,
    ....when you ask them to compromise for you"

    Necromancers constantly have to sacrifice and compromise their survivability in order to stay alive while thieves sacrifices and compromise nothing. Would thieves be willing to compromise their unlimited supplies, unlimited tools and unlimited resources without putting absolutely no effort whatsoever to be in necromancer place?

    Perma stealths.... need i say more?

    Absolutely Not!!

    Necromancers have to constantly sacrifice and compromise everything to work hard in order to protect themselves and to stay alive

    Thieves,
    Nothing great was ever
    accomplished without making sacrifices

    Without pain, there would be
    no suffering, without suffering,
    we would never learn from our
    mistakes

    Necromancer

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @geist.4126 said:

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:
    because necro has other means of protecting themselves and staying alive.

    Name all of them.

    Yolo

           .
    
  • DaFishBob.6518DaFishBob.6518 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm of the camp that stealth effects should not stack in duration as they're not a proper boon anyway. To balance, stealth effects should get an across the board duration increase (+2 seconds perhaps?). This removes permanent stealth while (hopefully) leaving enough time to be of some use, also may open the possibility of stealth utilizing classes to not be as pigeon holed into stealth utilities and smoke fields since they won't stack anyway.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @geist.4126 said:

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:
    because necro has other means of protecting themselves and staying alive.

    Name all of them.

    Tower, keep and SM.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @geist.4126 said:

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:
    because necro has other means of protecting themselves and staying alive.

    Name all of them.

    Tower, keep and SM.

    Wow you forgot spawn too.

    Fort Aspenwood
    [ShW] Jekkies

  • juno.1840juno.1840 Member ✭✭✭

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:

    @Gondolph.7201 said:
    currently there is a increasing use of thieves in WvW. The tactics is usually the following: 3 thieves are in the (enemies) castle. We tried as a zerg to kill them, but you need approx. 20 min sometimes tro get 2 of them. The stealth disruption trap is almost useless now, since the death-eye is visible for approx. 2-3 sec now. They are almost permanent invisible anyway.
    So if the zerg does not want to run for hours behind phantoms, the leader finally decides to ignore thieves. and go for fights then. 10 minutes later the castle is fallen. Half of the game mechanics renders obsolete, there is no point anymore in nurturing castles to higher levels, unless the full zerg remains in it.

    that is no fun anymore.

    Not going to say it's not annoying, but if you want to get them just wait till they try to cap, they can't perma stealth and cap. Put a golem at lords, trust me it helps. If you're going to be there you might as well chuck a couple of golems in lords for good measure, they cannot one shot you inside one and they have to reveal themselves to kill the lord as well. You will only lose sm to them if they are ignored at lords.

    yeah everyone in the 25-man zerg stop for 20 minutes to play patti-cake with 3 thieves using broken game mechanics...

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @juno.1840 said:

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:

    @Gondolph.7201 said:
    currently there is a increasing use of thieves in WvW. The tactics is usually the following: 3 thieves are in the (enemies) castle. We tried as a zerg to kill them, but you need approx. 20 min sometimes tro get 2 of them. The stealth disruption trap is almost useless now, since the death-eye is visible for approx. 2-3 sec now. They are almost permanent invisible anyway.
    So if the zerg does not want to run for hours behind phantoms, the leader finally decides to ignore thieves. and go for fights then. 10 minutes later the castle is fallen. Half of the game mechanics renders obsolete, there is no point anymore in nurturing castles to higher levels, unless the full zerg remains in it.

    that is no fun anymore.

    Not going to say it's not annoying, but if you want to get them just wait till they try to cap, they can't perma stealth and cap. Put a golem at lords, trust me it helps. If you're going to be there you might as well chuck a couple of golems in lords for good measure, they cannot one shot you inside one and they have to reveal themselves to kill the lord as well. You will only lose sm to them if they are ignored at lords.

    yeah everyone in the 25-man zerg stop for 20 minutes to play patti-cake with 3 thieves using broken game mechanics...

    waiting there with 25 man will make it unlikely the thieves will act. the problem is the 25 abusing the broken game mechanic in stacking numbers to a point that there is no reason to engage and then complain about it.

  • enkidu.5937enkidu.5937 Member ✭✭✭

    havent seen any thieves lately xD

  • Aiga.3075Aiga.3075 Member ✭✭

    @Duckota.4769 said:
    Tbh I play some deadeye thief. Backstab 1 shot build. Its fun. Die a lot more than people here may think by picking targets that look juicy only for them to hit some sick i-frame skills, get some distance, turn around and clap back. I do think it's a bit strong. Not the stealth itself.

    I too have started playing deadeye and die a lot as well (mainly to scrappers and reveal lol). The perma stealth while cheesy isn't the problem its the massive damage they can do coming out of stealth which is the big problem. If I pop assassin's signet then mark my target then use binding shadow along with sigil of impact then I can hit for 18k+ easily on soft targets which is a 1 shot to almost any class running a glass build and at most 2 or 3 shots on tanky build's with the follow up shots if they are stunned unless they pop invul's then I just stealth and go find another target.

    Deadeye to me seems a bit broken but I don't know what could be done to it other than reduce damage coming out of stealth without breaking it completely because they rely so much on stealth. Maybe nerf Silent scope down to 5% critical chance increase instead of 20%?

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aiga.3075 said:

    @Duckota.4769 said:
    Tbh I play some deadeye thief. Backstab 1 shot build. Its fun. Die a lot more than people here may think by picking targets that look juicy only for them to hit some sick i-frame skills, get some distance, turn around and clap back. I do think it's a bit strong. Not the stealth itself.

    I too have started playing deadeye and die a lot as well (mainly to scrappers and reveal lol). The perma stealth while cheesy isn't the problem its the massive damage they can do coming out of stealth which is the big problem. If I pop assassin's signet then mark my target then use binding shadow along with sigil of impact then I can hit for 18k+ easily on soft targets which is a 1 shot to almost any class running a glass build and at most 2 or 3 shots on tanky build's with the follow up shots if they are stunned unless they pop invul's then I just stealth and go find another target.

    Deadeye to me seems a bit broken but I don't know what could be done to it other than reduce damage coming out of stealth without breaking it completely because they rely so much on stealth. Maybe nerf Silent scope down to 5% critical chance increase instead of 20%?

    I could live with having dodge for stealth reduced somehow or replaced with something more along the lines of original Silent Scope that was Kneel for stealth. Or, unpack that damage over the duration of the fight somehow and let it cleave or do area damage, otherwise leave the damage alone and everyone can cope and build their defenses accordingly like the thieves their complaining about do.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • juno.1840juno.1840 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @juno.1840 said:

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:

    @Gondolph.7201 said:
    currently there is a increasing use of thieves in WvW. The tactics is usually the following: 3 thieves are in the (enemies) castle. We tried as a zerg to kill them, but you need approx. 20 min sometimes tro get 2 of them. The stealth disruption trap is almost useless now, since the death-eye is visible for approx. 2-3 sec now. They are almost permanent invisible anyway.
    So if the zerg does not want to run for hours behind phantoms, the leader finally decides to ignore thieves. and go for fights then. 10 minutes later the castle is fallen. Half of the game mechanics renders obsolete, there is no point anymore in nurturing castles to higher levels, unless the full zerg remains in it.

    that is no fun anymore.

    Not going to say it's not annoying, but if you want to get them just wait till they try to cap, they can't perma stealth and cap. Put a golem at lords, trust me it helps. If you're going to be there you might as well chuck a couple of golems in lords for good measure, they cannot one shot you inside one and they have to reveal themselves to kill the lord as well. You will only lose sm to them if they are ignored at lords.

    yeah everyone in the 25-man zerg stop for 20 minutes to play patti-cake with 3 thieves using broken game mechanics...

    waiting there with 25 man will make it unlikely the thieves will act. the problem is the 25 abusing the broken game mechanic in stacking numbers to a point that there is no reason to engage and then complain about it.

    Of course the thieves wont act with a 25-man blob, but even that is a victory for the thieves since a very small team would keep a very large team out of action.

    Stacking numbers is not a broken mechanic... it's not even a mechanic.

    WvW is a game of numbers. If you want a game of skill, go play PvP.

  • TorQ.7041TorQ.7041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2018

    @gebrechen.5643 said:
    Options:

    • delete the ability to undo reveal
    • set revealed to 5s
    • make stealth cost 50% of your energy

    choose one ore all of the above and apply patch.

    So you basically want to go up to them and killed them very easily in 2 hits. Then it's no longer op. Maybe they should also Nerf the defense mechanic of all other professions except the one you play. Blocks for guard, shroud for necro, clones for mes etc.

    Then once every thing else dies from you because they have zero defense then there is balance.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @juno.1840 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @juno.1840 said:

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:

    @Gondolph.7201 said:
    currently there is a increasing use of thieves in WvW. The tactics is usually the following: 3 thieves are in the (enemies) castle. We tried as a zerg to kill them, but you need approx. 20 min sometimes tro get 2 of them. The stealth disruption trap is almost useless now, since the death-eye is visible for approx. 2-3 sec now. They are almost permanent invisible anyway.
    So if the zerg does not want to run for hours behind phantoms, the leader finally decides to ignore thieves. and go for fights then. 10 minutes later the castle is fallen. Half of the game mechanics renders obsolete, there is no point anymore in nurturing castles to higher levels, unless the full zerg remains in it.

    that is no fun anymore.

    Not going to say it's not annoying, but if you want to get them just wait till they try to cap, they can't perma stealth and cap. Put a golem at lords, trust me it helps. If you're going to be there you might as well chuck a couple of golems in lords for good measure, they cannot one shot you inside one and they have to reveal themselves to kill the lord as well. You will only lose sm to them if they are ignored at lords.

    yeah everyone in the 25-man zerg stop for 20 minutes to play patti-cake with 3 thieves using broken game mechanics...

    waiting there with 25 man will make it unlikely the thieves will act. the problem is the 25 abusing the broken game mechanic in stacking numbers to a point that there is no reason to engage and then complain about it.

    Of course the thieves wont act with a 25-man blob, but even that is a victory for the thieves since a very small team would keep a very large team out of action.

    Stacking numbers is not a broken mechanic... it's not even a mechanic.

    WvW is a game of numbers. If you want a game of skill, go play PvP.

    there is no need for a 25 man blob to kill a few thieves. its still their stupidity in thinking stacking up numbers will solve every issue instantly. i mean with large teams you surely will have 1-2 people able to kill the thief or group of thieves at lord, maybe got to ask in chat for some of your servers roamers or mainly duellists to help you out if you are on zerg builds. but no - most people just want to play a game of boredom instead of giving their opponent a reason to act. its like spawncamping every exit with 20 people when there is only 3 in spawn, if you back off and give them an opportunity to do something, you might get a chance to kill them but standing there you just bore them or ask them to be stupid.

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    @TorQ.7041 said:

    @gebrechen.5643 said:
    Options:

    • delete the ability to undo reveal
    • set revealed to 5s
    • make stealth cost 50% of your energy

    choose one ore all of the above and apply patch.

    So you basically want to go up to them and killed them very easily in 2 hits. Then it's no longer op. Maybe they should also Nerf the defense mechanic of all other professions except the one you play. Blocks for guard, shroud for necro, clones for mes etc.

    Then once every thing else dies from you because they have zero defense then there is balance.

    None of those mentioned things destroys the class. Thieves still have a by far greater toolkit for escape than other classes around and they don't have to sacrifice anything for it - they can even run full berserker gear - which no other build can.

  • @geist.4126 said:
    None of those mentioned things destroys the class. Thieves still have a by far greater toolkit for escape than other classes around and they don't have to sacrifice anything for it - they can even run full berserker gear - which no other build can.

    full berserker gear
    in wvw
    in 2018
    wha?

    full berserker thiefs as so glass that they can die to retaliation off their attacks alone and fairly quick while at it.
    and while everything when running full berserker is glass as kitten, I'd say most other classes at least needs to be hit to go down instead of just dying to retal.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @geist.4126 said:

    @TorQ.7041 said:

    @gebrechen.5643 said:
    Options:

    • delete the ability to undo reveal
    • set revealed to 5s
    • make stealth cost 50% of your energy

    choose one ore all of the above and apply patch.

    So you basically want to go up to them and killed them very easily in 2 hits. Then it's no longer op. Maybe they should also Nerf the defense mechanic of all other professions except the one you play. Blocks for guard, shroud for necro, clones for mes etc.

    Then once every thing else dies from you because they have zero defense then there is balance.

    None of those mentioned things destroys the class. Thieves still have a by far greater toolkit for escape than other classes around and they don't have to sacrifice anything for it - they can even run full berserker gear - which no other build can.

    Seen warriors necros and even some revs. Rangers and holos use beserker gear then slap in some marurder to get 20k health or something.

    It's mostly the de that will run the 11k full beserker gear.

    Thievs need iniaitve to escape and rifle is pretty heavy on it too, also sword mirage and easily keep up the pace so can holo with rocket boots and rifle (more then enough time to either waste the thievs initiative or to even land killing blows on the thief)

  • TorQ.7041TorQ.7041 Member ✭✭✭

    @geist.4126 said:

    @TorQ.7041 said:

    @gebrechen.5643 said:
    Options:

    • delete the ability to undo reveal
    • set revealed to 5s
    • make stealth cost 50% of your energy

    choose one ore all of the above and apply patch.

    So you basically want to go up to them and killed them very easily in 2 hits. Then it's no longer op. Maybe they should also Nerf the defense mechanic of all other professions except the one you play. Blocks for guard, shroud for necro, clones for mes etc.

    Then once every thing else dies from you because they have zero defense then there is balance.

    None of those mentioned things destroys the class. Thieves still have a by far greater toolkit for escape than other classes around and they don't have to sacrifice anything for it - they can even run full berserker gear - which no other build can.

    A normal thief sure. But a normal thief won't have the dmg to wreck u in seconds.

    Most people hate on the deadeye but it has zero escape cabilities apart from skill 4 which doesn't go very far.

    I really have had zero problems when I play Holo rev thief or guard vs deadeye. If u can leap or teleport to a DE and aoe. They r basically dead.

  • TorQ.7041TorQ.7041 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @geist.4126 said:

    @TorQ.7041 said:

    @gebrechen.5643 said:
    Options:

    • delete the ability to undo reveal
    • set revealed to 5s
    • make stealth cost 50% of your energy

    choose one ore all of the above and apply patch.

    So you basically want to go up to them and killed them very easily in 2 hits. Then it's no longer op. Maybe they should also Nerf the defense mechanic of all other professions except the one you play. Blocks for guard, shroud for necro, clones for mes etc.

    Then once every thing else dies from you because they have zero defense then there is balance.

    None of those mentioned things destroys the class. Thieves still have a by far greater toolkit for escape than other classes around and they don't have to sacrifice anything for it - they can even run full berserker gear - which no other build can.

    Seen warriors necros and even some revs. Rangers and holos use beserker gear then slap in some marurder to get 20k health or something.

    It's mostly the de that will run the 11k full beserker gear.

    Thievs need iniaitve to escape and rifle is pretty heavy on it too, also sword mirage and easily keep up the pace so can holo with rocket boots and rifle (more then enough time to either waste the thievs initiative or to even land killing blows on the thief)

    Agreed. Excatly. It's crazy these people hate on the class but never played it and assume it has the same mobility as daredevil while being able to perma stealth and deal massive damage.