When’s enough enough (elite specs)

[Sylvyn.4750]

12 hours ago, Ferret.3087 said:

I personally think it would be awesome if arena net decided for an expansion after EoD to add new weapons instead of specializations, potentially with new core trait lines for any new weapons - a couple new weapons could add enough new variety for all classes

While new weapons would require similar balancing adjustments to new elite specs, they would totally mess up the consistency of Black Lion weapon skin collections and related achievements as well, so that might be a bridge too far for Anet at this point.  Gotta think of the marketing aspects here...the ultimate collectors and achievers would be mad that a new weapon doesn't come in their favorite BL weapon skin that they collected for all other weapons they own.  After all, fashion wars are the end game here...😏

[Mungrul.9358]

17 minutes ago, Sylvyn.4750 said:

After all, fashion wars are the end game here...😏

You smirk, but 'tis trooooooo.

[Fueki.4753]

28 minutes ago, Sylvyn.4750 said:

While new weapons would require similar balancing adjustments to new elite specs, they would totally mess up the consistency of Black Lion weapon skin collections and related achievements as well, so that might be a bridge too far for Anet at this point.  Gotta think of the marketing aspects here...the ultimate collectors and achievers would be mad that a new weapon doesn't come in their favorite BL weapon skin that they collected for all other weapons they own.  After all, fashion wars are the end game here...

When Black Lion sets not featuring underwater weapons is not a problem,

there is no problem with older sets not featuring new weapons either.

Edited September 16, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Sylvyn.4750]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

When Black Lion sets not featuring underwater weapons is not a problem,

there is no problem with older sets not featuring new weapons either.

Underwater weapons that barely see 10% usage really don't count...one does not merely line up at the bank in Black Citadel showing off underwater weapons with the other charr elite...😉

[George.9745]

Says he understands. He proceeds to not understand. Lol. I think they do a great job. If they add one more profession you would ask when does that stop. U can never satisfy everyone. I hope they understand and move on with what they do cuz there's still a big bunch of us that actually enjoy this type of new content. 

[Rogue.8235]

19 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

You're claiming you don't. Show me the data that that's not true. You're trying to ask people to prove that switching up gameplay is actually a positive. Why don't you prove to me it's a negative.

Yeah, so you can't prove a negative....

Underground, secretive societies of lizard people exist.  Show me the evidence that they don't exist!

If you need more ridiculous examples of why you can't prove a negative let me know.

 

To expound:

You just need to find one piece of evidence to prove a positive claim.

You require knowledge of all instances across all time and spatial dimensions (also known as omniscience) to prove that something does not exist.  Humans are not gods, therefore we cannot prove a negative.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

On 9/15/2021 at 9:34 AM, Grimlineman.6759 said:

I’m sure this has been brought up  before but where is the ceiling when it comes to class specializations? Don’t get me wrong I understand it keeps the game fresh for people who never take breaks and brings the ones back that do but when does it stop? Every expansion we just gonna get more and more until every class can use every weapon? That’s a lot to balance when other existing  specs and weapon skills could use some love without adding new for the sake of shiny.
 

Thoughts? 

I think the point you make about balance is worth speaking to. Many games balance with some level of DPS performance in mind. They have to because if they don't, there isn't enough critical mass of players using certain classes needed to do group content. When that happens, you see stupid things like people paying for healers to join their teams. You know a game's balance is borked if you see that kind of thing. 

That doesn't apply to GW2 because it's not designed around this holy trinity of typical roles (healing, tanking and damage), so the requirement for balance isn't as critical for performance in GW2 as it is in other games. That means you can play how you want (intended from day 1 and a selling point of this game) and still be successful in group content. It also means Anet can simply release especs with a broader mission of giving people variation for playing that class that isn't necessarily a performance upgrade from previous specs (though depending on who you talk to, most especs are considered an upgrade from core). 

Frankly, I hope Anet continue to release especs, though I can start to see where it might get challenging to offer different playstyles for a class within the limited range of strategies in the game. 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Vayne.8563]

38 minutes ago, Rogue.8235 said:

Yeah, so you can't prove a negative....

Underground, secretive societies of lizard people exist.  Show me the evidence that they don't exist!

If you need more ridiculous examples of why you can't prove a negative let me know.

 

To expound:

You just need to find one piece of evidence to prove a positive claim.

You require knowledge of all instances across all time and spatial dimensions (also known as omniscience) to prove that something does not exist.  Humans are not gods, therefore we cannot prove a negative.

 

 

Well it works both ways. We're saying people like new elite specs and it sure seems like it. Considering this is one of the very very few times I've seen someone complain about them, I'd say the community is overwhelmingly supportive. Annecdotal of course.

 

Casual players don't really care about balance anyway, they're in the majority, But giving people options on how to play characters is huge. For years people asked for a way to play a ranger without a pet. They don't like pet classes. Enter Soulbeast. That opens up a new class to people who avoided playing it for so long. More stuff to experience means more people keep playing.

 

According to the balance crowd the game hasn't been balanced since HoT anyway, so might as well have some new elite specs.

[Rogue.8235]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Well it works both ways. We're saying people like new elite specs and it sure seems like it. Considering this is one of the very very few times I've seen someone complain about them, I'd say the community is overwhelmingly supportive. Annecdotal of course.

Casual players don't really care about balance anyway, they're in the majority, But giving people options on how to play characters is huge. For years people asked for a way to play a ranger without a pet. They don't like pet classes. Enter Soulbeast. That opens up a new class to people who avoided playing it for so long. More stuff to experience means more people keep playing.

According to the balance crowd the game hasn't been balanced since HoT anyway, so might as well have some new elite specs.

I'm all for elite specializations.  Also, the balance crowd confirms that the game hasn't been balanced since before the betas 😉

Just pointing out that it's impossible to prove a negative.  Just because politicians use that argument doesn't mean we have to sink that low.  

Again, I'm always happy to play new elite specializations.

[Dante.1508]

Please bring back monks and trinity.

[Mik.3401]

On 9/15/2021 at 4:34 PM, Mungrul.9358 said:

I think elite specs were probably the wrong way of doing things, even if it looked easier to implement than full professions.

The core game was designed around different professions having different access to weapons, with less options available at one end (Engineers with only 4 possible combinations) and more at the other (Warriors with 21 possible combinations).

 

Every time you add a weapon to a profession through elite specs, you dilute this balance, with a core feature of the Warrior profession being devalued each time.

 

Entire new professions would have been harder to implement, to be sure (although they could very easily have grabbed the old ones from the first game, like Dervish, Paragon and Ritualist), but would have resulted in a more balanced game with less power creep.

 

Because that's the other problem with elite specs; they completely devalue core professions. Once unlocked, it's rare that you see anyone playing anything other than an elite spec, because they're just better than core.

The game was originally designed around the idea of Exotic stat gear being the highest in the game, and professions not having access to entirely new, overpowered skill trees through elite specs. And that's why core Tyria offers no challenge to elite spec characters in ascended quality gear.

 

Unfortunately, it would be incredibly difficult for ANet to reverse this design decision now, as too many other things are tied in to the elite spec systems, and they'd annoy a huge percentage of the userbase.

I agree. I think Anet really should sit down and think what to do with core specs to balance them out with elite specs.  Their existence kind of leads to awkward situations like:

 

‘I like guns and bombs l’ll make an engineer!’

* engineer elite specs are melee-only with sword or hammer’

’oh….’

[Chemistral.7318]

Without new e-specs I'd honestly stop playing GW2 entirely. (On a break right now waiting for Medium Armor e-specs to be revealed.) Theorycrafting builds are the highlight of the game for me and I personally really enjoy getting new additions to pre-existing professions vs. a brand new one. I prefer professions/classes in MMO's to be highly customizable over simplified pre-set rotations that you can't change. Sure GW2 may only have nine professions but unless your using preset meta builds you'll rarely see someone else of the same profession playing just like you.

[Raknar.4735]

I love E-specs, they give me new ways to play my mains and potentially make me want to play other classes due to the new flavour they give already existing classes.

Back when I played WoW and similiar MMORPGs I always hated how the only way to freshen up a class was to rework existing classes. A class could end up feeling completely different after an expansion due to reworks just to change things up. Those reworks gave the classes new stuff, but also took away things/skills forever.

With E-specs you get to keep the class and also have the possibility to play/experience it in a new way (I‘m aware that Anet sometimes does rework old traitlines that are problematic etc., but it‘s not a regular thing).

[kharmin.7683]

3 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

Please bring back monks and trinity.

No trinity please.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 9/15/2021 at 6:22 PM, Marikus.1875 said:

FFXIV: Is the literal OUTLIER of your entire selection and possibly the MMO space in general. The reason they are able to deploy classes every expac is because every class plays the exact same.

You don't play FF XIV, do you?

[Ferret.3087]

17 hours ago, Sylvyn.4750 said:

While new weapons would require similar balancing adjustments to new elite specs, they would totally mess up the consistency of Black Lion weapon skin collections and related achievements as well, so that might be a bridge too far for Anet at this point.  Gotta think of the marketing aspects here...the ultimate collectors and achievers would be mad that a new weapon doesn't come in their favorite BL weapon skin that they collected for all other weapons they own.  After all, fashion wars are the end game here...😏

Good point, but in my opinion I don't think that should stop Arena net from adding new weapons. We could pretty much skew that mentality as an excuse to pretty much never introduce anything new in the game - for example like fishing - I collect all mining tools, all of a sudden there is a fishing rod now? I don't think we should add fishing (A little bit extreme, but I think you see what I'm trying to say).

 

I would much rather have a new weapon with no skins that gives a bunch of classes a new way to play then to never release a new weapon because "it won't have as many skins".  This is the same case for the excuse I always hear about underwater weapons - "Arena net stopped making skins for them" - I don't care if arena net stopped making skins for them - put land spears in the game with the skins that exist now. Just my opinion of course 🙂 

[Gehenna.3625]

15 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

 Humans are not gods, therefore we cannot prove a negative.

We can't even prove that gods are omniscient or that they even exist, but also that they don't.

 

However, your argument doesn't apply here as you don't understand what "you can't prove a negative" means. In the first line of my response I illustrate this. What it means is that you can't prove a negative in the sense that it wouldn't exist. You can, however, prove that something has had a negative effect on something. But either way you have to come with proof or at least good arguments why it would be either a positive or a negative.

 

Personally I think that change can be good or bad depending on the change, it's not always positive. In fact it can be both. For example, in SWTOR the 4th expansion came with a new gearing system that chased many players away. This was followed by server merges. However, there were other players that liked it. So was it negative or positive? It depends on what you're talking about.

 

My point is that sweeping statements like "change is good" or "change is bad" rarely are true, when you really look at it.

[StrangerDanger.3496]

I think at a minimum they will eventually have every single weapon/offhand usable for each class.  Which is what they seem to be doing here.

 

I am sort of disappointed they are not adding new weapons to the mix with these elite specs, which would add a lot of variety.  

 

And with that said, its also sorta meh....when i see these i go "alright how is melee going to work on this new class" when all i crave are good range spec's, which are becoming less and less viable in this game with how support works.

 

Id have loved to see this expansion add a handful of specs that might open the door to using more range options in a group for meta...but maybe thats just me.

 

 

In all I care less about the elite specs with the expansion, and care more about the added game world and longer term game loops it might add.  I really hope it has meaty content with lots of longer term viable event farms more like HOT without the annoying unless you have flying overly vertical rats nest pathing game world.  

[Marikus.1875]

8 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You don't play FF XIV, do you?

What are you talking about. I DID play it and it has literally zero class differentiation between each player.

 

Player 1 who plays a blue mages is the exact same as Player 2 who plays a blue mage with respect to class skills. There's no such thing as traits that diversify the way the class plays.

Here in GW2, you have build variety. One ele may be spec'd X way with Y weapon while another ele may be a completely different spec.

[OriOri.8724]

On 9/15/2021 at 1:57 PM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I disagree with the premise that balance necessarily becomes more difficult with the addition of new specializations.  In fact, there are opportunities to lessen disparities between classes.  For example, boon support with alacrity is monopolized by renegade and sometimes mirage.  If there were other viable options, the meta might splinter to choosing one or another class for alacrity based upon their particular synergy with other elements in the group.

The more build options there are, the harder it becomes to balance all of them against each other. The more mechanics there are in game, the harder it becomes to balance all of them. Just because elite specs offer an avenue to lessen disparities (which, fwiw, is something that could also be done without elite specs and just more comprehensive balance updates) does not mean that they make balancing everythign easier. Quite the opposite is true, because there are more combinations in play in every class with each new elite spec. More combinations that could unintentionally have too much synergy and end up too powerful.

 

To the main thread, I just wish ANet would release information about new elite specs significantly earlier in development than they currently do. On one hand, I definitely understand wanting to hold them back till they are mostly finished. But on the other, it would be helpful to get feedback earlier. Don't necessarily need full information, could be very high level like "Hey, for the next expac we're thinking of a ranged power spec for mesmers" at first.

 

But the earlier we get information, the earlier we can provide feedback on issues that might be broken or not fun. The current cycle though, with us not getting any information until specs are almost done and the expac is being finalized, means that ANet doesn't have enough time to revamp specs significantly based on user feedback.

[ArchonWing.9480]

On 9/15/2021 at 6:34 AM, Grimlineman.6759 said:

I’m sure this has been brought up  before but where is the ceiling when it comes to class specializations? Don’t get me wrong I understand it keeps the game fresh for people who never take breaks and brings the ones back that do but when does it stop? Every expansion we just gonna get more and more until every class can use every weapon? That’s a lot to balance when other existing  specs and weapon skills could use some love without adding new for the sake of shiny.
 

Thoughts? 

There is no ceiling. But Quality over Quantity, of course.

Also 3 expansions over 9 years? There is no problem.

[Rogue.8235]

9 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

We can't even prove that gods are omniscient or that they even exist, but also that they don't.

 

However, your argument doesn't apply here as you don't understand what "you can't prove a negative" means. In the first line of my response I illustrate this. What it means is that you can't prove a negative in the sense that it wouldn't exist. You can, however, prove that something has had a negative effect on something. But either way you have to come with proof or at least good arguments why it would be either a positive or a negative.

 

Personally I think that change can be good or bad depending on the change, it's not always positive. In fact it can be both. For example, in SWTOR the 4th expansion came with a new gearing system that chased many players away. This was followed by server merges. However, there were other players that liked it. So was it negative or positive? It depends on what you're talking about.

 

My point is that sweeping statements like "change is good" or "change is bad" rarely are true, when you really look at it.

 

Yep, conceded.  No notes. 👍🖖

[AsterionStarbreaker.9564]

7 hours ago, Marikus.1875 said:

What are you talking about. I DID play it and it has literally zero class differentiation between each player.

 

Player 1 who plays a blue mages is the exact same as Player 2 who plays a blue mage with respect to class skills. There's no such thing as traits that diversify the way the class plays.

Here in GW2, you have build variety. One ele may be spec'd X way with Y weapon while another ele may be a completely different spec.

What does Blue Mage even have to do with this?

Blue Mage is side content that is completely unrelated to the main game content. If you were trying to prove a point, you massively failed at actually picking a point to prove. I say this as someone who plays both FFXIV and GW2. Blue Mage also you know, functions kind of like how skills used to work in GW1 in that you had to go out and get them and build a deck of them. It can't even enter mainline content normally except in preformed parties, and even then your claim is wrong because assuming you have enough of the skills, you can make your own entirely different loadout so you're more likely to encounter someone using different spells than you.

 

Also you know, I don't see how Guild Wars 2's spec variety compares to the 17ish classes all playing inherently differently from each other within their role. A Gunbreaker does not play the same as a Paladin which does not play the same as a Warrior which does not play the same as a Dark Knight. A Summoner does not play the same way as a Black Mage which does not play the same as a Red Mage. Machinist, Bard, Dancer. Heck, even the healers don't even play the same. Sure they have a role but their class mechanics are very different. There is a dearth of difference between how GW2 handles its (arguably limited) build variety and how classes are very clearly differentiated in PLAYSTYLE and rotation in FF14.

 

If you're going to make a claim, at least act like you know what you're talking about this. Because I am max level in all of the jobs that FF14 currently has to offer, and they do not compare in the slightest to how GW2 professions work. And given how the balance in GW2 works half the darned time, I don't know if that's better or worse.

 

At least in FFXIV, I mainly have to focus on just getting good at my rotations instead of hoping that ArenaNet is a slight bit nice to my main profession of Elementalist because 'oh no they're overperforming a slight bit in this one specific area of the game compared to every other profession who can do that function for far less opportunity cost', because Yoshida looked at how WoW handled its trait system and was like 'yeah how about we don't do that because that is a balance dumpster fire and a half waiting to be happen'.

 

Because let's not pretend that ArenaNet's own handling of the trait balance is something to be proud of, considering some of the silly decisions they've made over the years in the name of 'balance'. Half the time it feels like 'build variety' in Guild Wars 2 is made in spite of ArenaNet's balance decisions to shoe-horn people into taking certain traits.

Edited September 18, 2021 by AsterionStarbreaker.9564

[Marikus.1875]

7 minutes ago, AsterionStarbreaker.9564 said:

7ish classes all playing inherently differently from each other within their role.

 

I knew you were going to use this exact argument. You know how I knew? Because I was following your flawed logic since the first time you questioned me.

No, this isn't a comparable instance. What you're describing are CANNED PRE-DEFINED classes that ALL players play the exact identical copies of. GW2 has that yes, but where it differs is in the ability to CUSTIMIZE the class further. 

We're not talking about who has MORE classes but rather how each class can be customized to the players preference to play how THEY want.

This shifts player agency to the player with class building where FFXIV does NOT have player agency over classes.

You get what everyone else gets.

Arguments over.

[Fueki.4753]

9 hours ago, OriOri.8724 said:

To the main thread, I just wish ANet would release information about new elite specs significantly earlier in development than they currently do. On one hand, I definitely understand wanting to hold them back till they are mostly finished. But on the other, it would be helpful to get feedback earlier. Don't necessarily need full information, could be very high level like "Hey, for the next expac we're thinking of a ranged power spec for mesmers" at first.

 

But the earlier we get information, the earlier we can provide feedback on issues that might be broken or not fun. The current cycle though, with us not getting any information until specs are almost done and the expac is being finalized, means that ANet doesn't have enough time to revamp specs significantly based on user feedback.

What good would that do though?

Most of the feedback they'd get are the same things people already post on the forums, regarding balance and what the new elite specialization should be able to do. Most of it got happily ignored by Arenanet.

So, even if they released information earlier, they would most likely ignore the feedback and do the elite specialization they want without a single regard to what players want.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Fueki.4753