Vindicator Feedback Thread

[Fabulous Faprio.2718]

This is my POV of Vindicator in WvW. Some of my issues with Vindicator:

Greatsword:

#3 Phantom's Onslaught: it feels like it needed a finisher on it either whirl or leap and 12s instead of 15s or invade frame. 

 

F2 Ability: it needs some more works. It feels terrible if you're not in Legendary Alliance Stance, very underwhelming for other Stances.

Energy Meld: This ability feels like core revenant mechanic (25 energy + a buff based on the legend), but it just gives you 50 endurance and nothing else. 

 

Utility skills:

Normad's Advance: 900 range leap instead of 600 range

Urn of Saint Viktor: this skill feels terrible to use. It barely even heal, you can't be heal. The trade-off (50% MS, -50% condition damage/damge) aren't really worth using. Drop Urn of Saint Viktor: if you pop it above 75%, it doesn't do anything. You basically lost 25% of HP for nothing.

 

Traits:

Leviathan Strength: it feels like this should have been a based line thing for the Alliance Stance. Flip and refresh utility skills is a little pointless since they are on 10s CD. Plus, it increases the F2 CD to 40s, like why would you give up a dodge for a CD refresh when they are only 10s CD.

Redemption's Sermon and Balance in Discord: I tested with 1200 Healing power, it barely increase any healing, it's very disappointing.

 

Overall: 

Assumed Power build: Alliance Stance synergies well with Assassin Stance since Riposting Shadows gives you 15 endurance.  There is most no synergies with the other Stances(Jalis & Mallyx).

Assumed Healing/Support build: the combo of Ventari and Alliance stance is fun to use. They have some vigor and increase to allies synergy. In Salvation line, Selfless Amplification + Saint of Zu Heltzer could give you at least 40% increase to healing to allies. The issue I want to point out is with Ventari Stance, it have no stun-break. When you swap over to heal allies, you have no way to stun-break. I believe that Ventari and Alliance Stance would be a great healing spec in WvW.

 

 

 

 

[Zenith.7301]

11 minutes ago, Vennyhedgie.5369 said:

I hate this honestly. This was THE time to give us floating Balthazar greatsword which was clamored for and they went with two boring legends from literaly the exact point in the timeline as Shiro. I hate that they forced themselves into a Cantha legend. Revenants should not even exist in Cantha to begin with since it's still closed borders and Rytlock is the first revenant. 

 

 

Floating Balthy GS animations would have been sick. Telekinetic greatsword use, so much missed opportunity.

[Kidel.2057]

16 minutes ago, Vennyhedgie.5369 said:

I hate this honestly. This was THE time to give us floating Balthazar greatsword which was clamored for and they went with two boring legends from literaly the exact point in the timeline as Shiro. I hate that they forced themselves into a Cantha legend. Revenants should not even exist in Cantha to begin with since it's still closed borders and Rytlock is the first revenant. 

Cantha has ritualists and Revenant is basically Ritualist 2.0. Many Vindicator skills seem to be taken directly from there. Talking about core Rev. In this spec the Urn screams Ritualist.

[Zaret.1450]

3 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

In response to the “why are conditions present on some of the skills” complaints:
 

It’s fairly simple; they’re there and intended to help support hybrid or condition damage variants in WvW/PvP.  Herald does the exact same thing with elemental blast and song of the mists which helps enable multiple build types in competitive settings.  Having options for pvp/wvw is only a good thing and we shouldn’t be looking to reduce options 
 

They can still increase the power damage massively for PvE while leaving the conditions on the skills. They don’t need to be removed in order to increase the damage for PvE since condis naturally have no scaling with zerker stats. 

sry but 3 stacks of burn on one archemorus skill, 6 torment i think? on lance, no condi on gs and you say its to make a hibrid? mmm if thats true then i dont know how hibrids could ever work i mean at least renegade has condis and power on both the legend and weapon but vindi doesnt need condis it should be a power or healer depending on the legend you choose, also if herald already does that why would you want the same in another spec, those condis are just either a bad design or an excuse to not give vindi more power dmg, or cc that could be better, the same with buffs, i dont want a skill that burns hits like a sneeze and gives buffs i want a skill that hits hard and burns and a skill that gives boons and does something else, no more skills that do 5 things awfully give me 2 skills that each do 1 or 2 things great, or at least give traits so we can focus on one of those things so we can CHOOSE what we want to do, like guardians can for example be great at everything.

[Hooglese.4860]

It's really unfocused and clunky. Everything about the spec feels slapped together and self-defeating. Like the dps dodge lasts the longest, so your dps goes down. The f2 that gives you your dodge back has a cast time, so you cant get your dodge back in a pinch. The channelled ability needs to be cast to stop it, and it hurts you with a minimum cast duration at -10 energy/s. There are so many poor decisions in the spec that it's hard to see the spec is anything but rushed/unfinished.

[Zenith.7301]

The elite and dodge have larger windup and resource cost and yet do damage than Greatsword #2, which itself does way less damage than any of the 1H sword skills, which were underpowered in PvE to begin with and were in need of buffing in PvE long before Vindicator was even a consideration.

 

Herald is still waiting to see the light of day as a support spec in organized PvE. And yet they had to go and make another deficient support spec instead of fixing the dedicated revenant support spec to be viable in PvE so Vindicator can be the dedicated power DPS PvE spec revenant needs.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Loules.8601]

2 minutes ago, Zenith.7301 said:

Herald is still waiting to see the light of day as a support spec in organized PvE. And yet they had to go and make another deficient support spec instead of fixing the dedicated revenant support spec to be viable in PvE so Vindicator can be the dedicated power DPS PvE spec revenant needs.

I think that Herald in their opinion - boon support, like FB. And Vindicator - like a heal-tempest/druid

[Ashantara.8731]

Is it just me or would the whole concept of the Vindicator, along with those aggressive/passive skill combinations, been the perfect assembly for a Shaolin-like Monk elite spec FOR THE GUARDIAN??

I wish they had done something cool like this for the Guardian - the Willbender is absolutely "Meh!" in comparison.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Ashantara.8731

[The Jonasan.3649]

I think a lot of people here have made some great suggestions - namely revolving around the alliance utility skills.

To brush stroke over this, my preference would also be to assign F2 as an alliance swap rather than the convoluted system that we currently have; perhaps with a boon or vigor incentive on swap to help stimulate flow. 

The focus of my observations are based around the Great Sword itself. Other than the well-commented need for higher damage tuning, I feel that the weapon lacks identity in both its move set and animations. Although I suspect the latter is a good thing for now, as it effectively allows more room for change ahead of release.

In so far as the move sets go and to some degree the playstyle of the weapon, my suggestions come from a standpoint that would favour awarding damage through degrees of proximity and higher number of targets in the affected area, as opposed to just increasing raw values. 

So based on what we currently have, what if:

1. Basic GS attacks had 240 range sweeping strokes. 

The added range would help the GS feel a bit more synced with the varying ranges in the alliance's (and other legend's) utility skills, as well as thematically give a sense of power through large sweeping mist strokes; lending to both the added range and rewarding animations. In a crowded fight, this could add up some decent damage alone.

2. Mist Unleashed used a much narrower cone with 900 range limit and added chill instead or vulnerability.  

As it is right now it feels a little flat and with nothing interesting to say. Increasing its range and narrowing the shape of the cone would not only make it more engaging as a skill shot but would help to align it as tool that can synergize well with both the vindicator's dodge attack and other mid/long-range skills. Anim-wise, I visualize the sword being thrust in to the ground and mist particle effects flooding out along the AOE. 

3. Phantom's Onslaught actually covered the distance, added vulnerability instead of chill and awarded brief quickness.

The move would essentially function as it does now but the added quickness could sync well with follow up skills. Particularly those with slightly longer cast times. Other than this I think the skill serves its function as a gap closer. 

4. Imperial Guard... was left alone. 

Totally fine, I think. The attack block conversion to damage makes this an interesting skill and rather satisfying to use in the optimum situation. With True Strike also benefitting from the increased 240 range there could be plenty of damage dealt back in a densely populated area in front of the player. 

5. Eternity's Requiem had a cast range of 420, with a guaranteed impact at the centre.

All current aspects constant, the skill would effectively function as it does now but with a marginally reduced element of chance and added control.

And there we go, my two cents. Hope everyone is having fun testing and sharing their opinions. Some great suggestions going around for sure. 

Peace out. 

Edited September 23, 2021 by The Jonasan.3649

[Axl.8924]

Without monk runes and having givers gear which is healing and concentration and toughness i was doing about 2900 hp per jump plus a small amount of barrier what kinda numbers do you guys get with vindi?

[Daywalker.9710]

I really enjoy vindicator. I think a few changes could make it more fun, like the alliance button should let you pick and stay permenantly in either legends, but thats just my opinion. Also, can I just say the GS skills and animations are spot on, good work! Skill 5 could have been slightly different in terms of movement as its used from reaper but this is minor. Overall, I find it really fun and I don't play rev much. Best spec of beta 2 for me.

[Awor.4879]

Why have another scuffed herald when we could have support herald and power mele vindicator. There is a lot of potential in vindicator but it needs a lot of work/rework.

Class mechanic:  the dodge is interesting, the timing is okish but the effects need buff, especially the offensive one.

F2:  its too costly for what it does, remove the energy cost. Increase the cd. Make so when you flip the skills they are off cd. Make so if you are outside of the new legend, it puts you back in with refreshed cds. This way f2 would be skill with big impact/decision making and unlock pure dps pve builds.

GS:  1,2,4 are ok. 3 needs longer range. 5 feels akward to use for mele skill. Overall needs dmg buff.

Legend skills: 

Urn of Saint Victor: useless, not engaging, out of place. It needs to be replaced. It doesn't fit the legend/spec. 
Maybe on the place of it  there should be skill which is hard mele aoe cc + medium/high dmg. 

Spear of Archemorus:  needs faster animation, higher dmg, remove the torment and give weakness/chill/cripple etc. 

Scavenger Burst:  should be insta cast or dmg buffed and cast decreased to 1/2.

Tree song:  cast time to 1/2

Nomad's Advance:  cast time to 1/2

Rest of the utilities are ok.

Traits:

Amnesty of Shing Jea:  protection instead of regeneration.

Redemptor's Sermon:  i thaught the era of passive traits is behind us? Rework. Maybe lowers the cd of the  legend skills or makes the fliped skills be off cd but overall the legend skills have higher cost.

Balance in Discord:  edurance isntead of boons.

Leviathan Strength:  gives cd reductions  to f2(from 40s to 25s)

Forerunner of Death:  150->100, way faster animation.

Vassals of the Empire:  100->75, way faster animation.

Saint of zu Heltzer: the barrier and healing modifier  are akward. It makes more sense to heal and has 20% dmg reduction for 5s.

Overall the spec has a lot of potential. Clearly it's more focused towards offensive/dps roles. My vision for it is: duelist/sidenoder for pvp, dps for pve/wvw.  Just leave the new legend be pure dmg one and work on herald to make it the support it should be and not an other spec influenced by support capabilities. We have rene with alacrity and herald with general boon support. Please don't ruin this spec in to scuffed hybrid/support herald we have enough of those.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Awor.4879
formating

[Axl.8924]

EM i think herald might be still outright superior. WIth both centaur stance and dragon stance for support i don't see vindi competing with herald, since it can also give huge amounts of buffs.

[Smigleesmits.7540]

There needs to be some kind of synergy between the two alliance legends. It seems odd that there is no incentive to chain the separate ability sets in a meaningful way. Two ideas off the top my head:

 

The Luxon abilities already produce self-might and quickness, why not allow you to share that via Awakening (a Kurzick ability), perhaps add a self-buff damage modifier which scales with the number of allies affected to benefit DPS specs using the ability as well. Reaver's Rage could then function as a CC ability which also grants stability to nearby allies. Obviously, the stun-break aspect would have to be removed from both.

 

I'm not too keen on the Urn ability, but if such an ability exists why not make it so that Luxon abilities deal increased damage while low on health? That way the Urn could at least serve as a reliable way to trigger extra damage. Archemorus's spear could perhaps grant self-alacrity or quickness so that it can be shared via Awakening if changed as mentioned before.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Smigleesmits.7540

[Aeolus.3615]

32 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

EM i think herald might be still outright superior. WIth both centaur stance and dragon stance for support i don't see vindi competing with herald, since it can also give huge amounts of buffs.

It actually can and can compete in a very interesing non punishive way, and i think i know a way to fix the clunkiness of the skills system.

What if the elite skill would be what activate the alliance swapping between Arch/Victor skills like u were swapping combat modes or techniques?

 

The current skill system is weird cause limits the builds victor is more supportish while scales awfully with stats so thats punishing power players that want to focus on Arch(they have to go trrough vic skills and the f2 swap thing felt pretty forced solution), elite could be like the combat stance that the players could change their combat style in the alliance legend like a call out to the  allied warrior.

Arch utils would have Victor urn as elite skills which would be similar to the Arch spear ghost but using a shield that would reduce damage around target.

Victor utils would have Arch as elite as a callout would activate the same effect and swap from Victor utils to Arch.

This way would be less clunky and less penalty in stats vs gameplay.

F2 could be something else, like a dive in aoe leap that would make damage on Arch and aoe heal drop landing with Victor.

And a same effect F2 for non Alliance legend which would be a teleport outside Alliance. 

 

 

 

Sorry the bad english, my english is getting 404's today....

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

2 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

sry but 3 stacks of burn on one archemorus skill, 6 torment i think? on lance, no condi on gs and you say its to make a hibrid? mmm if thats true then i dont mmm if that’s true then I don’t know how hybrids could ever work I mean at least renegade has condis and power on both legend and weapon

Just to be clear I’m talking *specifically* about WvW/PvP when I say “it’s to allow hybrid builds to exist.”  The amount of condis on the Alliance skills are actually enough to help support condi/hybrid builds in those modes (obviously not PvE). 

There are condis on GS. Chill -> Abyssal Chill -> Torment.  Since it has some defense baked in GS could replace S/X or Staff in condi/hybrid competitive buildS

also Renegade only has condis on Razorclaw in its utilities which is almost never useful in competitive.  Alliance actually has more condis in its skills than Ren. And ofc Shortbow is a condi weapon, yet it’s still used for its power damage mostly in Competitive.  Things don’t have to be hyper focused to be useful in a variety of builds in non-PvE modes. 

2 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

also if herald already does that why would you want the same in another spec, those condis are just either a bad design or an excuse to not give vindi more power dmg, or cc that could be better, the same with buffs, i dont want a skill that burns hits like a sneeze and gives buffs i want a skill that hits hard and burns and a skill that gives boons and does something else, no more skills that do 5 things awfully give me 2 skills that each do 1 or 2 things great, or at least give traits so we can focus on one of those things so we can CHOOSE what we want to do, like guardians can for example be great at everything.

Herald can do it, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be able to do it with the new spec too?  Kind of like how you can play Mirage as power in Competitive modes despite it being designed as a condi spec and there also being a a power spec (chrono) released before it.  

They’re not holding back Vindicator because of 5 stacks of Torment on the elite and burn on one of the utils. They’re holding back because it’s undertuned and they clearly haven’t done much testing with the spec yet to realize that.  It’ll be fine once they buff the numbers before the next beta.  They can provide meaningful choices for wvw/pvp within the kit while also providing meaningful power DPS for all of PvE/wvw/pvp 

it’s funny you mention guardian though which has Burning literally baked into everything (including all of its high performance PvE power builds). Clearly having a few condis attached to skills doesn’t hold back a spec from performing well.  And why should it since condis don’t scale with power/precision/ferocity anyway??  What holds back the spec is the developers not buffing the power coefficients enough to be viable, not having 5 stacks of torment and 1 stack of burning attached to two skills 

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Shin Ryu.5802]

My quick take on vindicator:

The utility skills swapping between offensive and sustain/support after every use was actually very interesting, and it was curiously easy to get into a rhythm where the right one just happened to be available at the right time; it never felt necessary to forcibly swap them using Alliance Tactics.  Opinions and experiences vary, but I generally liked it.  Okay, maybe not ALL of it...

The weird dodge mechanic was just baffling to me.  Sure, the devs are likely fans of Final Fantasy games and wanted a dragoon Jump attack, and the prolonged absence of a hitbox is used to justify having only one dodge.  Imperial Guard and Battle Dance did help fill the gap of a missing dodge, but I still found myself wishing it were still there.   It would just make more sense to remove the landing zone targeting ability and shorten the jump animation to something commensurate with a normal dodge and mechanically have the dodge function more like a daredevils's Bound.  That way, there can still be two dodges and the dodge is still primarily going to be used to enter a fray rather than to escape one.  Given the dps potential of existing rev elite spec metas, giving the vindicator two Bound dodges with that extra telegraph of a high jumping animation isn't going to be overwhelming.

Vindicator is unlikely to replace a classic dual sword renegade or herald build in any context; I will likely run it for fun and novelty value while keeping a more practical elite build handy on the other build tab for when I actually need something that can dps and stay alive for realsies.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Shin Ryu.5802

[CJH.2879]

Personally I felt the class was okay... however I'm not particularly good at swapping legends, or swapping skills back & forth for that matter & keeping track of what's healing & what's damaging, so I decided to experiment with the elite spec & greatsword & this is what I came up with...

 

Hi all, I managed to come up with some viable builds with the elite spec beta classes, *as is*, via mixing & matching traits, skills, equipment & weapons! If you're struggling, try this out, it has all 3 elite specs that have very good survival & decent dps! The Catalyst has massive healing potential if you f2 & 1-5 (which also gives a frost aura), before doing an f1 for the dps again >> (With a Staff of course!) These experiments are, *as is*, so feel free to change them up, but yup, overall they work! So check them out: >>

 

[Ludovide.1967]

After playing around with the Vindicator the past few days and hearing the community's reaction to it,  I feel like I am in a good place to give some feedback on the spec. I don’t main revenant, but I probably play my rev 2nd most out of my characters. Firstly, I don’t think it is as bad as people are saying it is. It certainly needs a buff/some of the mechanics need to be tweaked, but as it stands I think it will be a really fun class for PvP, WvW, and open world events like bounties. I’m not a strike/raid player, so I can’t speak to that, but from what I hear, Revenant already has a solid build for endgame PvE. I definitely feel that the spec could do with an overall buff to its power/healing, but will eventually be balanced. Furthermore, the dodge mechanic is really fun, and when using the healing dodge I was able to dodge quite often and it felt rewarding. 

 

What is wrong with the spec?

What I found to be most problematic with the spec is the elite skills and the profession mechanic. Firstly, the elite skills are underpowered. The spear doesn’t do enough damage and doesn’t have any sort of CC or disable to make up for it. I think it is a really fun skill to use, but it needs to be buffed, ideally by giving it a CC or just more damage. Another way it could be buffed would be by having it drain energy while preparing to throw and reactivate it to throw the spear, dealing increased damage for the time you spent charging it. The urn on the other hand has too many drawbacks to be useful. The fact that it drains both health and energy makes it unplayable, which is unfortunate because it is a really interesting ability. Even if I still have a lot of health left, I can’t keep the urn up for long because I run out of energy. I would suggest making it just drain health so that you can still use other skills while it is active. Also, because the spear requires an enemy to target, if I want to start combat with the urn ready, I can’t because the skill will not flip over unless it targets an enemy. Similarly, if I want to use the spear and I have the urn active, I leave myself open to being cc’d and stuck with the urn out and taking damage because it cannot be easily double tapped as a skill.

The profession mechanic, the f2 skill, is also problematic because it doesn’t do anything useful when not in alliance stance. The herald and the base rev’s f2 skills do something unique depending on the legend you are in, and the renegade f-skills are useful no matter the legend you are in.

 

My solution to these issues, in addition to the buffs I’ve already mentioned, would be to swap the profession mechanic and the alliance elite skill(s). Ideally, the spear and urn skill would become separate f2 and f3 skills so that you could use them independently of each other. Then, while in alliance stance, the elite skill would flip your other utility skills and give endurance. This might not be the perfect solution, but I think it would open the door to use the elite spec with other legends than the alliance. For example, the urn gives damage reduction and heals allies, which synergizes with the ventari and dwarf stances. And the spear could become a great long range finisher or opener for shiro stance. 

[Icuhtnurh.9146]

Ok, So far Vindicator is my FAVORITE of the new Elite Specs coming up. It's so dynamic on the ability, and isn't pigeon holed into any one thing like the other specs feel to me. Granted, the new jump mechanic takes some getting used to, but honestly I love the sheer aggression provided in the spec. Even use of the Invoke Legend ability for this spec is incredibly useful to keep yourself on par, but not imperative, as you can maintain a steady assault even when flipping the abilities.

[Kidel.2057]

14 minutes ago, CJH.2879 said:

Personally I felt the class was okay... however I'm not particularly good at swapping legends, or swapping skills back & forth for that matter & keeping track of what's healing & what's damaging, so I decided to experiment with the elite spec & greatsword & this is what I came up with...

 

Hi all, I managed to come up with some viable builds with the elite spec beta classes, *as is*, via mixing & matching traits, skills, equipment & weapons! If you're struggling, try this out, it has all 3 elite specs that have very good survival & decent dps! The Catalyst has massive healing potential if you f2 & 1-5 (which also gives a frost aura), before doing an f1 for the dps again >> (With a Staff of course!) These experiments are, *as is*, so feel free to change them up, but yup, overall they work! So check them out: >>

 

I'm using this: https://imgur.com/2PIyJvF 

I think it makes more sense, since it's a power spec with a power weapon. Strike damage modifiers and +20% crit rate are better than having condis with 0 condi damage and 0 condi duration. Gear is a mix between berserker and valkyrie. 

[ShadowCatz.8437]

13 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Just to be clear I’m talking *specifically* about WvW/PvP when I say “it’s to allow hybrid builds to exist.”  The amount of condis on the Alliance skills are actually enough to help support condi/hybrid builds in those modes (obviously not PvE). 

There are condis on GS. Chill -> Abyssal Chill -> Torment.  Since it has some defense baked in GS could replace S/X or Staff in condi/hybrid competitive buildS

also Renegade only has condis on Razorclaw in its utilities which is almost never useful in competitive.  Alliance actually has more condis in its skills than Ren. And ofc Shortbow is a condi weapon, yet it’s still used for its power damage mostly in Competitive.  Things don’t have to be hyper focused to be useful in a variety of builds in non-PvE modes. 

Herald can do it, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be able to do it with the new spec too?  Kind of like how you can play Mirage as power in Competitive modes despite it being designed as a condi spec and there also being a a power spec (chrono) released before it.  

They’re not holding back Vindicator because of 5 stacks of Torment on the elite and burn on one of the utils. They’re holding back because it’s undertuned and they clearly haven’t done much testing with the spec yet to realize that.  It’ll be fine once they buff the numbers before the next beta.  They can provide meaningful choices for wvw/pvp within the kit while also providing meaningful power DPS for all of PvE/wvw/pvp 

it’s funny you mention guardian though which has Burning literally baked into everything (including all of its high performance PvE power builds). Clearly having a few condis attached to skills doesn’t hold back a spec from performing well.  And why should it since condis don’t scale with power/precision/ferocity anyway??  What holds back the spec is the developers not buffing the power coefficients enough to be viable, not having 5 stacks of torment and 1 stack of burning attached to two skills 

 

I agree with your POV, Lucian, on this.


In this beta I tested with all gear in Celestial which provide both uptime for boons and condition duration. It is not the strongest in either Power or Condition Damage, but sufficient in a group setting to provide support and do damage in both PvE and WvW.

With Runes of Traveller (for 25% base movement speed and 10%+20% duration on both condi and boons) it work well enough. The most important part is to pick traits that will provide resistance to reduce damage when you literally "jump" into damage (AOEs) to damage enemies or/and help your team to survive.

The largest problem so far is that it not much tools to lock enemies in place (if don't use hammers hard CC) and GS lack of hard CC is a bit of a problem. Only Chill on GS and from Legendary stance is not enough to keep very mobile targets in range (considering that dodge now is a very short leap in air with a delay before it lands). Like everything it will be depending on how WvW will turn out for what kind of play style that will be most common after Alliance change (WvW Restructuring). Will it be more close combat or ranged?

Another issue in PvE is how fast can Vendi take down Defiance bars? My impression it take more time to take it down before you can do Power Damage. Condition with duration will still work in background, but then one need to use Mallyx (Demon Stance) and time it right with bosses or enemies that have Defiance bars.

[Kidel.2057]

59 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

It actually can and can compete in a very interesing non punishive way, and i think i know a way to fix the clunkiness of the skills system.

What if the elite skill would be what activate the alliance swapping between Arch/Victor skills like u were swapping combat modes or techniques?

 

The current skill system is weird cause limits the builds victor is more supportish while scales awfully with stats so thats punishing power players that want to focus on Arch(they have to go trrough vic skills and the f2 swap thing felt pretty forced solution), elite could be like the combat stance that the players could change their combat style in the alliance legend like a call out to the  allied warrior.

Arch utils would have Victor urn as elite skills which would be similar to the Arch spear ghost but using a shield that would reduce damage around target.

Victor utils would have Arch as elite as a callout would activate the same effect and swap from Victor utils to Arch.

This way would be less clunky and less penalty in stats vs gameplay.

F2 could be something else, like a dive in aoe leap that would make damage on Arch and aoe heal drop landing with Victor.

And a same effect F2 for non Alliance legend which would be a teleport outside Alliance. 

 

 

 

Sorry the bad english, my english is getting 404's today....

 

I don't dislike the idea of having F2 and F3 being Spear and Urn, while the Elite is the loadout swap. We lose the endurance regain tho. How would you address that? Having it on the elite too would be bad, since I may need to get endurance without swapping the skills. Plus I wouldn't be able to get endurance in other stances. 

Maybe F2 is Energy Meld, F3 is Spear and F4 is Urn? With Elite for loadout? That may work. 

On a sidenote, I've been using Vindicator with Staff w Jalis+Shiro and it's nice. Very low damage compared to Renegade and Herald, but Saint's Shield is very good. I bet my kitten it's going to be nerfed. Very bad, it's the only good thing about Vindicator at the moment. 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[Aeolus.3615]

16 minutes ago, Kidel.2057 said:

I don't dislike the idea of having F2 and F3 being Spear and Urn, while the Elite is the loadout swap. We lose the endurance regain tho. How would you address that? Having it on the elite too would be bad, since I may need to get endurance without swapping the skills. Plus I wouldn't be able to get endurance in other stances. 

Maybe F2 is Energy Meld, F3 is Spear and F4 is Urn? With Elite for loadout? That may work. 

On a sidenote, I've been using Vindicator with Staff w Jalis+Shiro and it's nice. Very low damage compared to Renegade and Herald, but Saint's Shield is very good. I bet my kitten it's going to be nerfed. Very bad, it's the only good thing about Vindicator at the moment. 

The endurance could still be tied to F2 leap(similiar to DH F2 leap) base on aliance stance as well, just the landing  would proc diferent results based on wich alied stance ur were using, on non aliance legend would be a blink to aoe target with the endurance, or could be just the endurance as it is or block and gain endurance for each blocked atack? xD

Note there would not be a f2 and f3, F2 itself would change based on the stance used, the endurance would be the same as it is.

 

Note 2 The elites would remain the same and would be what would swap the stances.( well  victor urn ofc wich needs to be redesigned lol its a self kill buton)

Edited September 23, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Kidel.2057]

6 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

The endurance could still be tied to F2 leap(similiar to DH F2 leap) base on aliance stance as well, just the landing  would proc diferent results based on wich alied stance ur were using, on non aliance legend would be a blink to aoe target with the endurance, or could be just the endurance as it is or block and gain endurance for each blocked atack? xD

Note there would not be a f2 and f3, F2 itself would change based on the stance used, the endurance would be the same as it is.

I'd still prefer the endurance generation to be separated from any other effect I may need in a different situation. That being said it's still better than having it tied to the loadout management (like it's now)