EoD looks so bad it's not even funny

[crewthief.8649]

I never played GW1. I started playing GW2 during the beta weekend. Thus, I have no bias as the result of comparing GW2 to GW1; all I have is my experience with GW2 and its two previous expansions. 

Saying that, what I have seen so far (regarding EoD) looks cheap, if I’m  being honest. Well, either cheap or rushed, or both. I had actually taken a 3 year hiatus from GW2 and only just returned to the game in March of this year.  My return was 100% prompted by the announcement of the new expansion. I would imagine I am not alone in that regard.

The reused animations are concerning to me. Not that there are a few here and there, but all of them. One that stands out is the new turtle enemy that was touted by the presenters when it was revealed on Friday. It is not only 100% reused animations, but its mechanics are exactly the same as the massive HoT frogs. Is that the result of a lack of creativity, or resources? I find it extremely hard to believe that these animations are simply placeholders and that Anet will blow us away with entirely new animations upon release.

The elite specs have been extremely underwhelming, at least for me. Most of them seem incoherent, starting with the actual name of the elite specs, in most cases. Willbender? Virtuoso? Naming an espec costs no resources, how do you screw that up? How do you not know that the name of the espec should reflect its theme? There are myriad ideas within this very forum that would be far more fitting than what we got. And as far as the actual mechanical play of the specs, I haven’t been particularly impressed by any of them. As a Warrior main, the Bladesworn felt extremely clunky and seriously lacked flow (oddly enough). And to top it off, if I want to play it I’m stuck using the stock gunblade (which isn’t a particularly attractive weapon (imo)). In a game that is lovingly referred to as “fashion wars,” limiting my ability to customize the look of something as important as my weapon, is an issue (for me).

All in all, my hype for this expansion has been severely derailed. I hope that my intuition is wrong. I hope that it turns out great, but I am not a fanboy viewing this thing through rose-colored glasses. 

 

Edited October 11, 2021 by crewthief.8649

[Gibson.4036]

4 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

They said it's for returning players who want to jump right into the expansion and forgot about some of the mechanics.

Also, that tutorial area looked like it's just one heart, so there shouldn't be much to cause distress about.

Strange, but interesting. So at this point they’re assuming even new players are going to jump right to 80? Or is Shing Jea a level 1 area?

[rylien.3824]

4 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

They said it's for returning players who want to jump right into the expansion and forgot about some of the mechanics.

Also, that tutorial area looked like it's just one heart, so there shouldn't be much to cause distress about.

 

And what exactly is interest? What's the point of going straight to End of Dragons ? People will not understand anything about the scenario ...
(Another proof, that the scenario is there only to be there: and that they just have nothing to do with it ...). At that time it was necessary to do like TESO, with unrelated scenarios if they are not able to keep a coherent and well-crafted scenario. (I say that, but even apart, it was a disaster, poor writers ... so bad. Which is a shame, because besides that, there were some really good ideas, and some interesting themes). 

If you want my opinion, it is not for nothing that the majority of the staff (beyond those who were fired) left ...
 

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, rylien.3824 said:

And what exactly is interest? What's the point of going straight to End of Dragons ? People will not understand anything about the scenario ...

There might be people who dropped out of the game after Season 5 and need a refresher of some mechanics.

And people who jump straight to the newest content to play it with friends actually exist, so Arenanet might try target them with that one heart.

1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Strange, but interesting. So at this point they’re assuming even new players are going to jump right to 80? Or is Shing Jea a level 1 area?

I don't think there is anything to assume there. There are new people who skip to 80. I can't say if they are many, but they definitely exist.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Gibson.4036]

39 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

There might be people who dropped out of the game after Season 5 and need a refresher of some mechanics.

And people who jump straight to the newest content to play it with friends actually exist, so Arenanet might try target them with that one heart.

I don't think there is anything to assume there. There are new people who skip to 80. I can't say if they are many, but they definitely exist.

I’ll stand by strange but interesting. They clearly though it was worth doing for some reason.

I’m curious about these amnesiac players. I’m also curious about these mechanics. I took a four year break from the game, and didn’t have a difficult reentry.

[Fueki.4753]

10 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I’ll stand by strange but interesting. They clearly though it was worth doing for some reason.

I’m curious about these amnesiac players. I’m also curious about these mechanics. I took a four year break from the game, and didn’t have a difficult reentry.

From what they have shown, it's just things like break bars and combo fields.

Since these mechanics are unique to GW2 (as far as I know), I wouldn't be surprised if people forgot about these mechanics if they haven't been playing GW2 some time.

The same training area also features a short jump puzzle. Jumping puzzle are not unique to GW2, but I haven't played another MMORPG with jumping puzzles that come somewhat close to the quality of many of the jumping puzzles in GW2.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

I think the biggest problem of EoD are the sky-high expectations of GW1. Cantha has to look exactly the same as in GW1, it has to feel exactly the same as 15 years ago. Fifteen years, let that sink in for a moment. That is not possible, sorry. Do the experiment yourselves. Look at photos of yourself, 15 years ago.

[crewthief.8649]

4 hours ago, Healy.9537 said:

It's an expansion for my favourite game so i will buy it no question.

 

But right now all i'm looking forward to is some new scenary and story, currently hopeful over thiefs new spec too.

 

Other than that theres absolutely nothing exciting for me so far, if i didn't love this game so much it would honestly currently be a hard pass.

 

 

 

Look at all the poor simple minded people spamming confused emotes because some people don't like 100% of everything anet puts out, poor souls being unable to understand simple concepts.

It’s the forum equivalent of a downvote. Most children can’t handle any criticism of something they like. Funnily enough, however, offering criticism can actually improve the end result for everyone. Rather than, you know, a blind stamp of approval.

[Poormany.4507]

4 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

I think the biggest problem of EoD are the sky-high expectations of GW1. Cantha has to look exactly the same as in GW1, it has to feel exactly the same as 15 years ago. Fifteen years, let that sink in for a moment. That is not possible, sorry. Do the experiment yourselves. Look at photos of yourself, 15 years ago.

I don't mind changes as long as they are consistent with the lore and/or make sense mechanically. I'm looking forward to seeing what the other maps are like, but Shing-Jea so far has issues with the 180 degree environmental changes/theme compared to GW1 and multitude of reused assets that have been shown so far. I'm still hopeful that Anet will consider the current player feedback and make (even small) changes accordingly.

Many, if not most, players currently have sky-high expectations because of how clearly rushed and overall not-that- great quality the Saga (particularly Champions) was, which was advertised as expac level content initially. It sacrificed a full possible expac that a lot of players were expecting for Primordus/the depths, many of whom had been waiting for it since GW1 (over 10 years). Given how much players were willing to give up for the Saga so that EoD could be fully developed, I think most of those, myself included, would expect at least a higher-than-average quality Cantha expac in return.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Poormany.4507

[Sobx.1758]

18 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Strange, but interesting. So at this point they’re assuming even new players are going to jump right to 80? Or is Shing Jea a level 1 area?

Or they understand that some players failed to learn the core game mechanics in the core part of the game, so they do for EoD what wasn't done for HoT/PoF. Do they expect people to jump right to 80? They don't need to. Core maps are significantly easier and judging by the fact that they'll unlock basic gliding/raptor/springer once the player enters EoD, it easly might be aimed at people that come back or start the game without playing through HoT/PoF. These parts might be just prepairing players for a core->EoD difficulty difference.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[radda.8920]

4 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

I think the biggest problem of EoD are the sky-high expectations of GW1. Cantha has to look exactly the same as in GW1, it has to feel exactly the same as 15 years ago. Fifteen years, let that sink in for a moment. That is not possible, sorry. Do the experiment yourselves. Look at photos of yourself, 15 years ago.

Yet they succeeded with the POF desert. Obviously it has changed a lot between gw1 and gw2 but we clearly feel that we are in the same place, the same atmosphere, often the same brightness, the area has kept the same soul.

 

But shing jea, if i didn't know it was this place, I wouldn't be able to recognize it. Everything changed. I do not understand the interest of returning to cantha if it is not to respect the essence of this continent.

Especially to do something a hundred times uglier than the original place.

 

Arena recreated cantha to attract the nostalgic but if it was to do something unrelated to the original place , they could avoid it and go to a whole new continent...

If the old players return there, it is partly to feel the atmosphere that we experienced 16 years ago with an evolution obviously. There for the moment, it is frustrating rather than anything else considering the massacre.

Edited October 11, 2021 by radda.8920

[Tukaram.8256]

None of the GW2 art is as good as GW, but I figured that is a game engine issue? After all GW was really much more of a single player game, with common towns. 

 

But, the new land looks great to me. As soon as I saw the livestream the other day I went and purchased my expansion (my new raptor looks great!).  This looks better than either of the other 2 expansions to me. 

 

8 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Strange, but interesting. So at this point they’re assuming even new players are going to jump right to 80? Or is Shing Jea a level 1 area?

The expansions seemed to aimed at current players, not new.  The other 2 expansion were all level 80 play. So, going to Shing Jea would likely be the same. Having any starter area is surprising - unless it is just to teach some new mechanics. 

[radda.8920]

3 minutes ago, Tukaram.8256 said:

 

 

But, the new land looks great to me. As soon as I saw the livestream the other day I went and purchased my expansion (my new raptor looks great!).  This looks better than either of the other 2 expansions to me. 

 

 

 

seriously?

so you prefer this kind of pixelated place with a very weird green than the magnificent maguma and the desert? 😲

[aetemes.2603]

I think if the EoD is viewed as a forced project rather than dev motivated it'll all make sense..I also think too many of the staff have been replaced and are probably not as many and not as invested just salvaging whatever they can.

[voltaicbore.8012]

8 hours ago, Poormany.4507 said:

Many, if not most, players currently have sky-high expectations because of how clearly rushed and overall not-that- great quality the Saga (particularly Champions) was, which was advertised as expac level content initially. It sacrificed a full possible expac that a lot of players were expecting for Primordus/the depths, many of whom had been waiting for it since GW1 (over 10 years). Given how much players were willing to give up for the Saga so that EoD could be fully developed, I think most of those, myself included, would expect at least a higher-than-average quality Cantha expac in return.

I'll say it every time the occasion comes up, but the Saga was doomed to fail from start. As you say it was advertised as expansion-level content, but from the beginning it was designed with crappy throwaway masteries like any other LW season. Combined with the lack of elite specs and some other flagship elements of an xpac, it's honestly insulting that they thought we'd believe the "expansion-like" spiel.

And I'm not saying this just because I don't think LW itself couldn't be big flagship content. Replaying LWS4 reaffirmed my belief that they could have pulled it off. Frankly with the inclusion of the skyscale, LWS4 actually seems much more "expansion-like" than IBS ever did. I firmly believe ANet needs to revisit whatever process they used to design IBS, and burn it with fire.

[Ayakaru.6583]

The game died when they scrapped Primordus, big surprise there

[Healix.5819]

EoD isn't exactly being rushed out. By launch, it will have been about 2 years since the original teaser; S3+PoF was developed in that time.

[witcher.3197]

On 10/9/2021 at 5:13 PM, Malsheem.1794 said:

We can sit here all day calling EoD either good or bad- looking as to what have been shown so far, but at the end of the day, it's the final result that counts. It's WiP - treat it as such.

You can praise or hose it all you want, but do it when it's out. 


 

Much of the criticism is centered around the art direction of EoD, that's not going to change.

They are not going to make the map look one way and then rework it to give it a different vibe as we come closer to release.

What we see is what we'll get.

Edited October 11, 2021 by witcher.3197

[Gibson.4036]

9 minutes ago, witcher.3197 said:

Much of the criticism is centered around the art direction of EoD, that's not going to change.

They are not going to make the map look one way and then rework it to give it a different vibe as we come closer to release.

What we see is what we'll get.

I take your point, but there was the redesign of the Sylvari back before launch.

Of course, that was a long time ago, and a different world as well as a different ANet.

[witcher.3197]

11 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I take your point, but there was the redesign of the Sylvari back before launch.

Of course, that was a long time ago, and a different world as well as a different ANet.

Yes but that happened because they weren't satisfied with it internally and wanted to go another way.

Nothing indicates that something like that is going to happen in EoD so close to launch. It's not like they made an attempt to recapture the spirit of Cantha from GW1 and missed the mark a bit so they'll finetune it. No, they never even tried and instead went in a completely different direction on purpose and for all we know they are satisfied with the results.

Edited October 11, 2021 by witcher.3197

[Gibson.4036]

15 minutes ago, witcher.3197 said:

Yes but that happened because they weren't satisfied with it internally and wanted to go another way.

There was a pretty big player outcry on the forums over the initial design reveal before they announced that they "weren't satisfied with it internally" and were doing a rework.

15 minutes ago, witcher.3197 said:

It's not like they made an attempt to recapture the spirit of Cantha from GW1 and missed the mark a bit so they'll finetune it. 

It's not even that it doesn't recapture the spirit of Cantha from GW1. It's that it doesn't live within the bounds of good colour theory. Nostalgia aside, it'd be nice if it was just aesthetically pleasing.

[lezbefriends.7516]

13 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

There was a pretty big player outcry on the forums over the initial design reveal before they announced that they "weren't satisfied with it internally" and were doing a rework.

It's not even that it doesn't recapture the spirit of Cantha from GW1. It's that it doesn't live within the bounds of good colour theory. Nostalgia aside, it'd be nice if it was just aesthetically pleasing.

 

Yes, you sound very well versed in "color theory". (The new Cantha looks fine.)

[Gibson.4036]

5 hours ago, Mortifera.6138 said:

 

Yes, you sound very well versed in "color theory". (The new Cantha looks fine.)

I'm glad it looks fine to you.

You probably aren't interested, but if you are, artwork is aesthetically pleasing when it has a cohesive color gamut. Great artworks appear to have a wide range of colors across the spectrum, but the hues are actually used with restraint, and intense colors read that way because of their relationship to the rest of the gamut, not because they are the most saturated they can be.

Here are some images, analysed for its color gamut by an awesome little piece of software called KGamut.

https://imgur.com/a/k3Ue55q

The first image is a painting by Monet. The garden looks lush, and like it is a riot of color. Interestingly, though, what look like blues are much closer to cool greys. The greens, which read clearly as green to us, venture only a little away from the grey middle of the color wheel. And overall, the gamut forms a fairly cohesive triangle with a ver few outliers into the cool reds where Monet wanted to give us a little thrill of color.

The second is a photograph of a Japanese garden, in line with the feel and style ArenNet is going for when designing Shing Jea. This image is too saturated for my personal taste, was probably monkeyed with in photoshop after being taken, but it still works if you want an oversaturated aesthetic. The reason it works is, again, that cohesive color gamut. Somewher between an elongated triangle and a rectangle, there is a discrete border around where the colors appear on the wheel.

Finally, a screen cap of Shing Jea. The color gamut here has been restrained largely to one side of the color wheel. Predominantly the cool side. The cherry blossoms work, becuase, like Monet's blues, they are only pink in relationship to the rest of the gamut. But look at the overall shape, spikey like a four armed starfish. This isolates those saturated yello-greens, blue-greens, and blues so they don't feel like a cohesive part of the whole. The bamboo leaves don't look like bright ponts of light subsurface scattering through foliage because they're left out there on their own, and then read as "radioactive" or "toxic" to many.

I've been trying to think of places in the rest of GW2 that are very colorful. Rata Sum with it's holographic plants? The Grove with all of it's glowy light? All a more cohesive gamut.

18 hours ago, rylien.3824 said:

There will be maybe 2-3 edits, maybe if its complaining enough, that there will be a "color enhancement", but that won't change much as it is. It will be nicer, like grabbing a cactus between your fingers, instead of a cheese grater. 🙄

Color correction may not be that hard. Witness the alteration made earlier in this thread, where someone warmed up the palette of the image. Also, note how night lighting shown in the Guild Chat episode brings the color back in line. A general lighting/postprocess pass could settle the colors down into a more cohesive gamut because it shifts them all in the same direction. Since this gamut is shooting out spikes toward the cooler side of the wheel, a general warm light could soften those outliers enough.

After having written all of this and thinking about it for several days now, I'm starting to think this aesthetic was very intentional, unfortunately. Is it possible their inspiration comes not so much from traditional Asian art, but from Asian game art, which can be a riot of intense, candy like color? The odd thing about that would be that while this is true of the advertisements, looking through screen shots of popular Asian MMOs you still see much more color cohesion than we see in Shing Jea at daytime. Blade and Soul has really vibrant looking environments, but nothing like the radioactive greens and blues shown us so far.

 

EDIT: Added a gamut analysis of the player color correction image of Shing Jea.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Gibson.4036

[rylien.3824]

A man on another forum made the analysis that we might not even have Shing Jea in full ... that would be really disagreeable.
Good luck to you, because you will need it !  :')

It will be like Istan, what a joke. 🤢

https://i.imgur.com/yKNPJiz.png

 

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by rylien.3824

[Fueki.4753]

21 minutes ago, rylien.3824 said:

A man on another forum made the analysis that we might not even have Shing Jea in full ... that would be really disagreeable.
Good luck to you, because you will need it !  :')

It will be like Istan, what a joke. 🤢

https://i.imgur.com/yKNPJiz.png

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised after Istan and Sandswept Isles being incomplete.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Fueki.4753