Removed the WvW participation grace time granted from repairing

[Gorem.8104]

7 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

FWIW, once alliances are implemented you're supposed to not have as many instances of Outnumbered happening anyway.

Yes essentially if that was the only change its a benefit to most people without them realising it (Unless they only play during outnumbered times, like Aus playing NA times) I am Aus doing that often but realised that the total amount of ticks I get, the 2 extra would mean a lot more pips then getting the 5 now and then. In Mithril now, would be finished diamond if it was active the past week. 

Really, if they had only done that, and actually listened to feedback on the removal of wall repair only punishing active players then things would be fine. I spent 2-3 hours yesterday constantly defending a tower, and the only thing keeping me there was being able to repair the walls/gate to keep my timer up so I could keep defending against attacks. The best way to attack something now is to wait a good ten minutes, now all defenders will have left as they have no way of keeping timer up outside of you attacking it and them getting a kill on you (as I noticed, the defence tick on the tower in Alpine borderlands outside our base did not give participation, I had to rely entirely on repairs or kills). Now the only way to get participation there is to constantly get kills every 10minutes, which relies on people attacking the tower constantly and they not being too zergy so you can actually get kills. 

Why would anyone ever spend time defending an objective or repairing walls now? They removed the incentive, and nerfed one of the games worst reward systems. K-training ahoy. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Gorem.8104

[obastable.5231]

They listened to lots of feedback, actually. Like a few hundred Guilds and the constant complaints of people abusing the grace system to bot points via AFK farming, either sitting on a piece of siege or running supply to repair one of the walls being AFK attacked by their opponents. It's been a problem for a very long time that rewards inactive users. Is the behavior of trebbing or repairing bad? No, no it's not, and it is contributing to your team. However if that's all your doing and aren't otherwise partaking in the active offense or defense with your team, you might be abusing the mechanic.  Now if you want to continue to receive rewards for helping your team you have to actually do more things to keep helping your team. I don't see that as an over all bad change.

In regard to the outnumbered buff - while gaining those pips is nice, sure, it's counter intuitive for a reward system to actively reward a player for making choices that hurt their team. It makes sense it was removed, and hopefully with Alliances it won't even matter as outnumbered would be a thing that happens less frequently with better population distribution.

All in all, if you're playing and doing things, you should be getting lots of pips with the buff to total pip gains anyway. Especially new players, or lower ranked ones, who have an inherent disadvantage to pip gains to begin with. There's a lot of other barriers to new players that still could use addressing but the pip gain boost is a nice start. The two subtle changes here do indeed disincentivize unwanted behavior but they also promote more useful action and encourage participation in more activities. Really the only people who are going to have a big problem with the changes are the ones who've been abusing them, and to a much lesser extent players who may not be good at doing other things in WvW and have had no incentive or reason to change. Now they have one, and if they like the game mode they'll do something about it and keep earning their pips. 

Change happens. I wouldn't doom and gloom this until you've had opportunity to see the results. I don't imagine anything will noticeably change other than seeing less AFK pip farmers around.

[Gorem.8104]

3 hours ago, obastable.5231 said:

They listened to lots of feedback, actually. Like a few hundred Guilds and the constant complaints of people abusing the grace system to bot points via AFK farming, either sitting on a piece of siege or running supply to repair one of the walls being AFK attacked by their opponents. It's been a problem for a very long time that rewards inactive users. Is the behavior of trebbing or repairing bad? No, no it's not, and it is contributing to your team. However if that's all your doing and aren't otherwise partaking in the active offense or defense with your team, you might be abusing the mechanic.  Now if you want to continue to receive rewards for helping your team you have to actually do more things to keep helping your team. I don't see that as an over all bad change.

In regard to the outnumbered buff - while gaining those pips is nice, sure, it's counter intuitive for a reward system to actively reward a player for making choices that hurt their team. It makes sense it was removed, and hopefully with Alliances it won't even matter as outnumbered would be a thing that happens less frequently with better population distribution.

All in all, if you're playing and doing things, you should be getting lots of pips with the buff to total pip gains anyway. Especially new players, or lower ranked ones, who have an inherent disadvantage to pip gains to begin with. There's a lot of other barriers to new players that still could use addressing but the pip gain boost is a nice start. The two subtle changes here do indeed disincentivize unwanted behavior but they also promote more useful action and encourage participation in more activities. Really the only people who are going to have a big problem with the changes are the ones who've been abusing them, and to a much lesser extent players who may not be good at doing other things in WvW and have had no incentive or reason to change. Now they have one, and if they like the game mode they'll do something about it and keep earning their pips. 

Change happens. I wouldn't doom and gloom this until you've had opportunity to see the results. I don't imagine anything will noticeably change other than seeing less AFK pip farmers around.

I read this from the view that you are someone that never wvw's and only PVE's and likes to complain about other people playing the game differently then you are. 
How does this hurt the people repairing smc's walls, the literal only place in the game that is constantly under attack and needs repair? Oh wait it doesn't, they will still get the defence tick. Repairing the towers around smc helps people that don't own smc too, but also, how often do you see people at say, Duri, doing this? Oh if you actually play wvw, either there will be one or none inside as you have to hope it gets sieged once every 10 minutes. 

By ignoring all the feedback we gave them here, they have decreed that the only way for you to get rewards in WVW is to flip camps or join a zerg and K-train. They already stated they will remove the timer on siege attacks too. Which will mean again, no one defending, just people STILL afk repairing smc so nothing changes but active players being punished. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Gorem.8104

[Zyreva.1078]

Pressing a button once a while while sitting in a safe zone =/= actively participating.

You don't defend structures by only repairing. At best it buys you some time, but ultimatively you will have to kill the attackers or at least destroy their siege. If there is an actual attack going on. If there is not - well, what are you defending against? Also for like 99% of players repairing already did nothing in terms of participation, because the timer is kept up easily by doing almost anything and it does not stack. And guess what - they still repair, not for some meaningless rewards, but because they want those kitten holes in their walls fixed. That should be incentive enough.

The change only "punishes" those who want easy rewards with minimal risk and effort. There is no other reason do to nothing but repairing for extended periods of time.

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Bristingr.5034]

Didn't you guys know? It's illegal to have scouts or even defend stuff now.

Get your Karma Boosters started, the K-Train is leaving the station. CHOO CHOO!

[Zok.4956]

16 minutes ago, Bristingr.5034 said:

Didn't you guys know? It's illegal to have scouts or even defend stuff now.

If you want to scout, talk with a commander. (s)he can give you participation for scouting. AFKing in a structure is not scouting.

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Zok.4956

[Bristingr.5034]

13 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

If you want to scout, talk with a commander. (s)he can give you participation for scouting. AFKing in a structure is not scouting.

TIL that repairing a damaged wall is now considered "AFKing".

[ArchonWing.9480]

1 hour ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Why would anyone ever spend time defending an objective or repairing walls now? They removed the incentive, and nerfed one of the games worst reward systems. K-training ahoy. 

Well, there's this thing where you can kill the attackers with tactical advantages like portals and stuff. Also waypoints are good for everyone, and do not magically appear.

Edited November 9, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

This is pretty much in line with Anet displaying selective hearing and barreling through with nonsense updates to WvW.  Its zerg or nothing apparently.  Defenders are not encouraged to help maintain holdings and worse, that was one of the best roles for "beginners" to play so they could be scouts at keeps and towers while not necessarily being rally bait.  Why bother with this game mode?  I used to love roaming and occasionally zerging, but originally I was a steadfast defender, but apparently that's not how to play WvW if these are the kinds of updates being implemented.

[Galdrien.1457]

3 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

The buff is worthless, it was only ever desired for its pip bonus. The benefits it gives are extremely tiny compared to the stress you have to deal with playing on an Outnumbered map, which is around a 3:1 ratio.

 

Without the pip bonus on Outnumbered, there's literally no point to play against the odds anymore. Maps should be locked at off-hours when there's insufficient population to go around outside of the stacked multiguild ktrain. I realise Alliances might help alot with this, but forcing the enemy to be Q'd and play in EoTM instead of farming your 5-10 players all night long would be good too.

When I was on my former server outnumbered was about the only perk during the 2am to 8am EST stretch when there were barely a dozen players active trying to fend off full squads of Australian and SouthEastAsian timezone guilds. It was a slow retreat all night long with few bags earned, lots of repairing and siege building to slow the capture of territory. Now they take away the outnumbered so they don't even get a reward for hanging in there. Does Anet think its more fun for big zergs if those dozen players just log off for the off hours too and the maps are entirely uncontested? The big zerg won't get their bags. The territories will fall fast with even less contest. We can get this one sided fight from Drizzlewood coast if I just want to fight NPCs all night.

Seems like a bad change to remove it entirely, and not offer some kind of carrot to the off hours groups who spend all night getting steamrolled.

[Strider Pj.2193]

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Reward_Track#Increasing_Participation
 

So, for those that feel like repairing is ‘worthless’, know that if the structure is ‘under attack’ as defined by the ‘defense event’ being active, and you PUT SUPPLY INTO A WALL’ you will get credit for ‘defending the structure’ which gives you 10 minutes of participation.,,,

 

So, please stop with the misleading, I’ll informed posts.  
 

Have a good ‘eye roll’ day!  

[ArchonWing.9480]

3 minutes ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Reward_Track#Increasing_Participation
 

So, for those that feel like repairing is ‘worthless’, know that if the structure is ‘under attack’ as defined by the ‘defense event’ being active, and you PUT SUPPLY INTO A WALL’ you will get credit for ‘defending the structure’ which gives you 10 minutes of participation.,,,

 

So, please stop with the misleading, I’ll informed posts.  
 

Have a good ‘eye roll’ day!  

Yea I think that still will be there but I'll test it when I play later today.

[HazyDaisy.4107]

4 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

For those talking about repairing not giving participation:  Note that IF a structure is under attack, and you repair a wall, you will get defense credit for the ‘defend event’ thus giving you participation.  
 

Your world will not end..

Thank you for doing thr research, I was wondering if this would be taken away as well.

[HazyDaisy.4107]

Tbh, it doesn't seem as bad as I was thinking, but it's only the first day. 

 

I'll probably still drain the supply in hopeless situations anyway.  Because a world with a few less golems, or golems that require more brain cells than simply zerging a keep in an empty bl, just so you can zerg an unclaimed Tier zero tower in the same empty bl with the 10 golems you just made from the keep supply is always a happier world.

[HazyDaisy.4107]

55 minutes ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Reward_Track#Increasing_Participation
 

So, for those that feel like repairing is ‘worthless’, know that if the structure is ‘under attack’ as defined by the ‘defense event’ being active, and you PUT SUPPLY INTO A WALL’ you will get credit for ‘defending the structure’ which gives you 10 minutes of participation.,,,

 

So, please stop with the misleading, I’ll informed posts.  
 

Have a good ‘eye roll’ day!  

I retract my above statement, did research myself on an account that didn't have "Stay Out" completed to check what active contest defense does and doesn't do now.

 

So first, the wiki reference you linked is wrong and has been for awhile, "supply" defense (repairing a contested objecrive) has only given 5 mins participation for over a year now, it only gave 10 mins for maybe a year after the participation system was released, then the time was lowered.  However, killing a player does still reward 10 mins whetger or not in or around a contested objective, but also grants credit for defense if the player is killed within the contest timer.

 

Second, while throwing supply on a contested objective does still count towards "Stay out" and should theoretically count towards daily defense, as of today, supply defense does not give partication time on the objective EVEN if it's contested.

[Strider Pj.2193]

3 minutes ago, HazyDaisy.4107 said:

I retract my above statement, did research myself on an account that didn't have "Stay Out" completed to check what active contest defense does and doesn't do now.

 

So first, the wiki reference you linked is wrong and has been for awhile, "supply" defense (repairing a contested objecrive) has only given 5 mins participation for over a year now, it only gave 10 mins for maybe a year after the participation system was released, then the time was lowered.  However, killing a player does still reward 10 mins whetger or not in or around a contested objective, but also grants credit for defense if the player is killed within the contest timer.

 

Second, while throwing supply on a contested objective does still count towards "Stay out" and should theoretically count towards daily defense, as of today, supply defense does not give partication time on the objective EVEN if it's contested.

Huh..  I’ll have to test it tonight as well.  My apologies.  Thank you for this info and correction.

[raykor.6723]

I don't see why this change was necessary. If some people like repairing structures to maintain participation, it doesn't matter to me. It didn't hurt anyone. But whatever.

Now how about giving participation to defenders actively using a shield gen against a trebber with a pebble on the fire key?

Edited November 9, 2021 by raykor.6723

[HazyDaisy.4107]

I just don't understand how defense can be considered defense on the one hand (Stay Out and Daily? Maybe), but isn't considered defense on the other hand (participation).  This inconsistency is what I have a problem with, but I don't want to complain too loudly otherwise they may fix the inconsistency :).

[MedievalThings.5417]

5 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

For those talking about repairing not giving participation:  Note that IF a structure is under attack, and you repair a wall, you will get defense credit for the ‘defend event’ thus giving you participation.  
 

Your world will not end..

I don't think it's gonna work that way.  Repairing doesn't contribute anything, so you won't get event credit.  I may be wrong, still a dumb change unless they remove siege damage participation at the same time.

[Strider Pj.2193]

9 minutes ago, Ubi.4136 said:

I don't think it's gonna work that way.  Repairing doesn't contribute anything, so you won't get event credit.  I may be wrong, still a dumb change unless they remove siege damage participation at the same time.

I agree with that last part.  
 

But it seems as if you are correct.  Another poster seemed to note that it will NOT count.  I need to test it as well.

[Gorem.8104]

2 hours ago, Bristingr.5034 said:

TIL that repairing a damaged wall is now considered "AFKing".

 

Yeah exactly, these people seem to think that only afk people repair walls, lol. Its like all the people for this have never wvw'd in their life. No wonder Anet put it in game, how dare active players repair right? Left alone at a keep to repair 2 t3 gates? Well welcome to not being rewarded for defending or repairing while actively fighting people off. Yet that person advocates the ultimate and only true way to afk, squad participation. 

[Gorem.8104]

3 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Pressing a button once a while while sitting in a safe zone =/= actively participating.

You don't defend structures by only repairing. At best it buys you some time, but ultimatively you will have to kill the attackers or at least destroy their siege. If there is an actual attack going on. If there is not - well, what are you defending against? Also for like 99% of players repairing already did nothing in terms of participation, because the timer is kept up easily by doing almost anything and it does not stack. And guess what - they still repair, not for some meaningless rewards, but because they want those kitten holes in their walls fixed. That should be incentive enough.

The change only "punishes" those who want easy rewards with minimal risk and effort. There is no other reason do to nothing but repairing for extended periods of time.

 

Its hard to tell just how wrong you are, cause you are extremely wrong, off the scale wrong. Towers are not attacked 100% of the time, if you are a scout defending a tower, you need the wall repair to sustain you while you wait between attacks. Attackers now just wait 10 minutes and boom you are gone, whereas before you could save a wall for helpful use to stay at said tower and keep defending it for much longer then 10 minutes. 

ALL THIS DOES. ALL IT DOES is punish active players. It does NOTHING. NOTHINNNGGG For inactive afk players. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Gorem.8104

[obastable.5231]

4 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

I read this from the view that you are someone that never wvw's and only PVE's and likes to complain about other people playing the game differently then you are. 
How does this hurt the people repairing smc's walls, the literal only place in the game that is constantly under attack and needs repair? Oh wait it doesn't, they will still get the defence tick. Repairing the towers around smc helps people that don't own smc too, but also, how often do you see people at say, Duri, doing this? Oh if you actually play wvw, either there will be one or none inside as you have to hope it gets sieged once every 10 minutes. 

By ignoring all the feedback we gave them here, they have decreed that the only way for you to get rewards in WVW is to flip camps or join a zerg and K-train. They already stated they will remove the timer on siege attacks too. Which will mean again, no one defending, just people STILL afk repairing smc so nothing changes but active players being punished. 

You can read it from whatever point of view makes you feel good about needing to try and put me down. I've got over 9000 hours spent in WvW since launch and have participated in some mythical WvW beta tests of yore. You can do whatever you want with that information including making more bad and false assumptions about people if you really feel you must. It would be better if you stuck to the topic though, at least it would get somewhere instead of setting yourself up as someone people don't want to engage with.

Your post is a whole lot of conjecture and opinion and assumptions that, because Anet didn't do what YOU feel they should have they have somehow made a hugely terrible mistake and totally ruined the game. Just because you feel that way doesn't make it true, nor does your assumption that because they didn't consult you specifically they obviously didn't consult lots of other people or anyone at all.

Search the forums. Search the old forums. Go way back in time and search a bunch of the specific world servers private forums.  You'll find complaints, discussions, and suggestions on how to disincentivize AFK farmers on all of them. If you're in a WvW guild ask your guild leaders about it and whether or not they're representing your guild in the WvW Initiative Discord server - note this is a private player run Discord and initiative not an Anet run community - and if they aren't, tell them to shoot me a message (I don't run it either for the record, I just represent my Guild there).

There are so many better ways you could be engaging on this subject, maybe give them some consideration. WvW is not just a few small actions of a few people. It is a very complex machine of multiple systems working together. Your complaints have a very small picture view attached to them. People are not going to suddenly stop repairing objectives just because they won't gain as much personal rewards. People repaired and defended objectives long before pips were even introduced, so that's really not a good hill to stand on.

[Loboling.5293]

5 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

FWIW, once alliances are implemented you're supposed to not have as many instances of Outnumbered happening anyway.

That's a good point actually, but then they should've implemented this change at that time. Right now, it objectively makes the game more difficult for dealing with outnumber situations. But you're right, eventually, this problem will solve itself with the coming updates to alliances. 

[suialthor.7164]

5 hours ago, obastable.5231 said:

Really the only people who are going to have a big problem with the changes are the ones who've been abusing them, and to a much lesser extent players who may not be good at doing other things in WvW and have had no incentive or reason to change.

They need add another way to get gift of battle for people who do not want to WvW.  Forcing people into a mode they would otherwise avoid, and removing one method of making it tolerable for them, is cruel.