Condition Spams

[Sovarica.4368]

The problem is not all condi the problem it''s like a multi pyramid thing look at necro they are just too good for the conquest mode because each attack gives them life force and they have an arsenal of unblockables and having the large pool of hp is a huge advantage of holding a node that's why they tend to win the first mid fight more often and when they do win they have that life force stored up for another advantage might as well let warrior keep their adrenaline is what I think. Then they give more boon counters good cc's and spammable utils a lot of necs bring two spectral forms which feels so incredibly cheap.. how come other classes don't get almost the same utility? It almost feels like a big F U when you're trying to duel and you see the cheapest lowest effort way of gaining lifeforce. Then also the factor of dealing with the aoe spams on the nodes which cover some of the rings of taking the node passively killing you with conditions. There's probably more to say but meh

[ASP.8093]

On 11/24/2021 at 3:42 AM, usernameisapain.7163 said:

We either have taunt/fear spams, leaving players unable to do much about anything for way too long.

There's no Expertise in SPvP, outside of a few traits that give the equivalent of +15% condition duration. So *in SPvP specifically,* condition-based CC (as much as I hate it) has durations similar to non-condition CC and is more easily cleanses (since both stun breaks and condi cleanses remove it).

[Morwath.9817]

14 hours ago, Sovari.7246 said:

The problem is not all condi the problem it''s like a multi pyramid thing look at necro they are just too good for the conquest mode because each attack gives them life force and they have an arsenal of unblockables and having the large pool of hp is a huge advantage of holding a node that's why they tend to win the first mid fight more often and when they do win they have that life force stored up for another advantage might as well let warrior keep their adrenaline is what I think. Then they give more boon counters good cc's and spammable utils a lot of necs bring two spectral forms which feels so incredibly cheap.. how come other classes don't get almost the same utility? It almost feels like a big F U when you're trying to duel and you see the cheapest lowest effort way of gaining lifeforce. Then also the factor of dealing with the aoe spams on the nodes which cover some of the rings of taking the node passively killing you with conditions. There's probably more to say but meh

 

Not all skills give life force. For example in case of Core Necro on on Scepter/Dagger only Unholy Feast gives life force, so you can deny life force generation on that weapon set with dodge/evade/block. Staff is different story, but you still can dodge/evade marks. Most of Life Force generation comes from Fears.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

The worst thing about conditions is their terrible UI. Tiny icons that move around constantly, with even tinier numbers on them that indicate their potency. Its objectively awful design.

[Newholiday.8103]

2 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

The worst thing about conditions is their terrible UI. Tiny icons that move around constantly, with even tinier numbers on them that indicate their potency. Its objectively awful design.

 

Seriously, this. The UI for condition and buff indications are so kitten terrible. Would make things so much better if I could actually tell what conditions were on me and what buffs other people have at a glance. What makes this even more infuriating is that you can't use custom UIs to replace the super clunky GW2 UI.

[Caedmon.6798]

More sustain in this game ?! No kittening ty.

[Zekent.3652]

On 11/28/2021 at 12:58 PM, Tayga.3192 said:

Mirage: Staff 5 is field spam?

Weaver: Sword 2 and a few short AoEs are field spam?

Ranger: Condi trapper isn't even good

Necro: Hmm I guess staff is field spam

? We're talking about condi spam here

[Tayga.3192]

10 hours ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

? We're talking about condi spam here

Please read what you are replying to.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

On 11/29/2021 at 2:22 PM, Morwath.9817 said:

 

Not all skills give life force. For example in case of Core Necro on on Scepter/Dagger only Unholy Feast gives life force, so you can deny life force generation on that weapon set with dodge/evade/block. Staff is different story, but you still can dodge/evade marks. Most of Life Force generation comes from Fears.

Marks generate LF when triggered, regardless of whether they actually hit anything or not. Dodge\evade won't proc fear, but that's pretty much it; that 3% LF is still going to the necro

[Morwath.9817]

3 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Marks generate LF when triggered, regardless of whether they actually hit anything or not. Dodge\evade won't proc fear, but that's pretty much it; that 3% LF is still going to the necro

Thats interesting. 

[Crozame.4098]

On 11/25/2021 at 10:49 AM, Bazsi.2734 said:

The meta is already power-heavy... so lets destroy condition builds!

1. Limit on fear/taunt duration: you're asking for the game to hold your hand. Oh you got feared, poor little thing, let me cut that short for you! Cleanses and stunbreaks are there for a reason, use them.
2. Building tolerance against CC: again asking for more handholding... good players either avoid getting CC-d and/or time their stunbreaks well, or go into fights with a bunker setup, designed to endure the punishment. And then there is you, wanting a reward (CC immunity) for getting hit by everything the enemy throws at you. I know an MMO that does things like this, there is a reason I'm not playing it!

3. Limit on condition stacks: out of all the metas we've had in the last decade, this is one of the few where there is absolutely no reason to ask for condi nerfs. +1-ing your sidenode on a condition build could result in your CC-s getting resisted and your condi damage getting culled to almost nothing, rendering you absolutely useless. HARD PASS.

I guess atm, DE/THIEF have no issues dealing with core necros.

[Firebeard.1746]

On 11/24/2021 at 3:57 AM, ovenglove.9528 said:

You aren't supposed to sustain condis forever using cleanses and traits. If you get hit with lots of condis over and over you should die. Why make condis less effective when in general for most classes power is more effective?

In addition to other comments, I will also say that I feel like WvW and PVP dueling situations that condi is far more effective because it allows the spammer to go OOC (at least this is what it feels like) while keeping the other in combat. It becomes a method of infinite sustain if played right with movement abilities. IMO, a condi on an enemy should also keep YOU in combat. You're doing damage. You're affecting them. It makes 0 sense that this is a thing. 

[Genesis.5169]

10 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

In addition to other comments, I will also say that I feel like WvW and PVP dueling situations that condi is far more effective because it allows the spammer to go OOC (at least this is what it feels like) while keeping the other in combat. It becomes a method of infinite sustain if played right with movement abilities. IMO, a condi on an enemy should also keep YOU in combat. You're doing damage. You're affecting them. It makes 0 sense that this is a thing. 

You cannot OOC if there is a condition on some one or yourself.

[Axl.8924]

On 11/24/2021 at 3:47 PM, Spellhunter.9675 said:

Power herald, grenade holo, power DH have enough burst damage for that.

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Axl.8924

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

5 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

You cannot OOC if there is a condition on some one or yourself.

I guess people in WvW that somehow were capable of getting enough distance from me and then mounted-up to run away from combat while I was still sitting in it with some leftover condies didn't know this fact, thank you for clearing this for them, now they'll never do that again.

[UNOwen.7132]

Conditions arent broken, but they have a problematic design. Specifically in how they're applied, and how polarising they are. Condi Cleanse allows you to just negate a lot of damage you would otherwise take, often entire rotations worth, with the press of a button. This already causes it to be very polarising, as classes that lack access to good, repeatable condi cleanse do a lot worse against it compared to classes that can condi cleanse like mad. Which is bad because in exchange for being so easily negatable, condi builds do absurd damage, so if you cant cleanse it, youre dead. 

 

Which is already not great, but what makes it truly bad is how condi damage and power damage are applied. In the case of power damage, the damage is on each skill, so the more damage a skill does, the more telegraphed it is, or the more setup it requires, or both. Avoid a power builds highest damage skill, and youll survive a whole lot longer. Dodge a DHs true shot, and theyre not nearly as threatening.

 

Unfortunately, this logic does not apply to condi builds. Condi builds do not really have big telegraphed skills. Their damage comes almost entirely from pulsing fields, passive on-hit or on-crit traits and instant cast skills. You'd need to dodge literally every attack they do to achieve the same effect as dodging True Shot, simply because every attack they do is a high damage attack. 

 

Sadly, any good solution to this requires a lot of work and is pretty disruptive. At this point I doubt well ever see it. But I do wish they'd make it so condi cleanse only affects non-damage condi (so that its less polarising) and then lower condi damage appropriately and make it equally as telegraphed as power damage. As is, condi isnt broken (its outclassed by power mostly) its just *miserable* to fight against.

[Genesis.5169]

2 hours ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Conditions arent broken, but they have a problematic design. Specifically in how they're applied, and how polarising they are. Condi Cleanse allows you to just negate a lot of damage you would otherwise take, often entire rotations worth, with the press of a button. This already causes it to be very polarising, as classes that lack access to good, repeatable condi cleanse do a lot worse against it compared to classes that can condi cleanse like mad. Which is bad because in exchange for being so easily negatable, condi builds do absurd damage, so if you cant cleanse it, youre dead. 

 

Which is already not great, but what makes it truly bad is how condi damage and power damage are applied. In the case of power damage, the damage is on each skill, so the more damage a skill does, the more telegraphed it is, or the more setup it requires, or both. Avoid a power builds highest damage skill, and youll survive a whole lot longer. Dodge a DHs true shot, and theyre not nearly as threatening.

 

Unfortunately, this logic does not apply to condi builds. Condi builds do not really have big telegraphed skills. Their damage comes almost entirely from pulsing fields, passive on-hit or on-crit traits and instant cast skills. You'd need to dodge literally every attack they do to achieve the same effect as dodging True Shot, simply because every attack they do is a high damage attack. 

 

Sadly, any good solution to this requires a lot of work and is pretty disruptive. At this point I doubt well ever see it. But I do wish they'd make it so condi cleanse only affects non-damage condi (so that its less polarising) and then lower condi damage appropriately and make it equally as telegraphed as power damage. As is, condi isnt broken (its outclassed by power mostly) its just *miserable* to fight against.

Almost all of mirage big condition nukes are highly telegraphed.
All phantasms are highly reactable.
Staff ambush his a huge tell with me spinning the staff and a slow projectile.
Shatters also have huge tell and most shatters do no condition damage.
Scepter 3 has a huge tell as its a really noticable animation.
Chaos storm is highly visible too.
Same for gaurdian purging flames torch 4 which are there main condition tools.
I do not play necro i cannot speak apon them but marks have a huge tell unless he's putting it directly under you in combat.

True shot you can do from stealth and you not only have time to charge it you have time to swap weapons to set up Intelligence runes LB 5 and chain if you so choose too while invis which means no tell till post chain and the chain is optional for the damage bonus you just need it to hit with Int runes up.

Same with vault from thieves or backstab.
Same with rangers with rapid fire as well.
Same with holo aswell from invis.
I definitely have a harder time reading damage from power builds and you cannot take it back if you fail to dodge it like conditions because you cannot cleanse power damage.
The condition hate is irrational.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Genesis.5169
Formating

[UNOwen.7132]

2 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Almost all of mirage big condition nukes are highly telegraphed.
All phantasms are highly reactable.
Staff ambush his a huge tell with me spinning the staff and a slow projectile.
Shatters also have huge tell and most shatters do no condition damage.
Scepter 3 has a huge tell as its a really noticable animation.
Chaos storm is highly visible too.
Same for gaurdian purging flames torch 4 which are there main condition tools.
I do not play necro i cannot speak apon them but marks have a huge tell unless he's putting it directly under you in combat.

True shot you can do from stealth and you not only have time to charge it you have time to swap weapons to set up Intelligence runes LB 5 and chain if you so choose too while invis which means no tell till post chain and the chain is optional for the damage bonus you just need it to hit with Int runes up.

Same with vault from thieves or backstab.
Same with rangers with rapid fire as well.
Same with holo aswell from invis.
I definitely have a harder time reading damage from power builds and you cannot take it back if you fail to dodge it like conditions because you cannot cleanse power damage.
The condition hate is irrational.

A, were not talking about Mirage. B, this is also just straight up not true. Shatter is not reactable, it doesnt even have a tell, and if done properly, leaves no time to react at all. Staff hasnt even been used in the weaponset in ages. As for Guardian, thats a pulsing field, you cant avoid fully. Marks are not where the necro gets damage from. True Shot still has to travel and hit you, even from stealth.

 

Like, straight up the only reason condi mirage was better than power mirage is that while power mirage killed instantly and you couldnt condi cleanse out of it, power mirage was reactable. Condi Mirage is not. Also Vault? Vault is insanely reactable and not good. Backstab doesnt do much damage anymore (its like 4k). Rapid Fire is very reactable. Holo doesnt burst from invis, you use it to set up CC if anything. 

 

Thats cap. Its a lot easier to react to power builds. Its just that to make up for condi builds being essentially unpreventable, you have condi cleanse to just screw them over. But thats bad design.

[Firebeard.1746]

On 12/1/2021 at 8:17 AM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I guess people in WvW that somehow were capable of getting enough distance from me and then mounted-up to run away from combat while I was still sitting in it with some leftover condies didn't know this fact, thank you for clearing this for them, now they'll never do that again.

I'm glad I'm not crazy. 

[Leonidrex.5649]

13 hours ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

A, were not talking about Mirage. B, this is also just straight up not true. Shatter is not reactable, it doesnt even have a tell, and if done properly, leaves no time to react at all. Staff hasnt even been used in the weaponset in ages. As for Guardian, thats a pulsing field, you cant avoid fully. Marks are not where the necro gets damage from. True Shot still has to travel and hit you, even from stealth.

 

Like, straight up the only reason condi mirage was better than power mirage is that while power mirage killed instantly and you couldnt condi cleanse out of it, power mirage was reactable. Condi Mirage is not. Also Vault? Vault is insanely reactable and not good. Backstab doesnt do much damage anymore (its like 4k). Rapid Fire is very reactable. Holo doesnt burst from invis, you use it to set up CC if anything. 

 

Thats cap. Its a lot easier to react to power builds. Its just that to make up for condi builds being essentially unpreventable, you have condi cleanse to just screw them over. But thats bad design.

power mirage can like 10k-15k dmg from stealth instantly, depending on rngsus
saying its more reactable then condi is odd.
In general more people play condi as its more survivable, condi mirage gets more damage from its skills so it can afford to hold onto clones for daze/invuln more often then power mirage, and thats on top of bigger HP pool.
Before feb patch it was even more true as condi mirage didnt even shatter, so they had access to 4s disortion at any time, while power mirage in general wanted to instantly shatter clones or shatter them fairly closely after summoning, leaving them vulnerable to burst damage, focus fire and conditions due to lack of long lasting disortion.
Heck, some of the power mirage burst damage has a disortion as a part of a burst rotation.

[UNOwen.7132]

3 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

power mirage can like 10k-15k dmg from stealth instantly, depending on rngsus
saying its more reactable then condi is odd.

The issue is it can only do that out of stealth. Since you need to hide the startup of GS2 else they'll just dodge roll or block and negate your whole burst. And they can't be stealthing to do that in combat for the same reason. Which would work great for a +1 kinda deal if you could stack stealth, but you cant. It's still good because you can burst off of a CC, or if you can by using blink at the right timing, but that means a lot of resources and a lot of downtime respectively. Outside of that, power mirage is very reactable. Condi mirage is juts never really reactable.

 

3 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

In general more people play condi as its more survivable, condi mirage gets more damage from its skills so it can afford to hold onto clones for daze/invuln more often then power mirage, and thats on top of bigger HP pool.

That helps, yes, but its really not the main reason. We had viable tanky bruiser-y builds before. Hell, they got some amulets removed even. But they were never as widely played, nor as widely despised, as condi builds. Hell, we also have had condi amulets that werent tanky at all but were full-on glass, and they were so widely used they got removed. Viper's for example.

 

3 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Before feb patch it was even more true as condi mirage didnt even shatter, so they had access to 4s disortion at any time, while power mirage in general wanted to instantly shatter clones or shatter them fairly closely after summoning, leaving them vulnerable to burst damage, focus fire and conditions due to lack of long lasting disortion.
Heck, some of the power mirage burst damage has a disortion as a part of a burst rotation.

Again, same as above. That helps, but its not the main reason. We do have very tanky power builds. In WvW for example, you have stuff like Weaver and Boonbeast. But Boonbeast is a lot easier to avoid the damage of than say, condi Soulbeast. 

[Beast Sos.1457]

You're right. Condi is a huge issue. The combat system wasn't built to cater to it. Power builds can be dodged, blocked, LoS, invul. Condi has cleanse and invul. Invul being much more limited in general so in reality it's mainly condi cleanse. Dealing with power takes timing and awareness. Dealing with condi, you just need to bring a build that cleanses. It ruins the gameplay. 

 

There is no good pvp game with heavy condi/dot dmg. Theres a reason for that. 

[Genesis.5169]

4 hours ago, Beast Sos.1457 said:

You're right. Condi is a huge issue. The combat system wasn't built to cater to it. Power builds can be dodged, blocked, LoS, invul. Condi has cleanse and invul. Invul being much more limited in general so in reality it's mainly condi cleanse. Dealing with power takes timing and awareness. Dealing with condi, you just need to bring a build that cleanses. It ruins the gameplay. 

 

There is no good pvp game with heavy condi/dot dmg. Theres a reason for that. 

Every single one of those defensive tools you said that work vs power also work vs condi.

You can dodge condi attacks.
You can block condi attacks.
You can LoS condi attacks.
You can invul condi attacks.
You can also cleanse condi attack which is a huge bonus.
Hell their are runes to transfer condition from you to other people and from others to you.
And there's a sigil to remove a condition on you on hit.
Blind also works on condi attacks just incase your wondering because like power attack they have to hit you before they deal any damage.

Not everyone uses unblockable marks only necros have that.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Beast Sos.1457]

14 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Every single one of those defensive tools you said that work vs power also work vs condi.

You can dodge condi attacks.
You can block condi attacks.
You can LoS condi attacks.
You can invul condi attacks.
You can also cleanse condi attack which is a huge bonus.
Hell their are runes to transfer condition from you to other people and from others to you.
And there's a sigil to remove a condition on you on hit.
Blind also works on condi attacks just incase your wondering because like power attack they have to hit you before they deal any damage.

Not everyone uses unblockable marks only necros have that.

Condi dmg is so much easier to stack. If I'm vsing a firebrand and cleanse the burns, another fat stack of it is coming my way very soon. It doesn't stop. If I'm vsing a DH I can bait out his combos then I don't have to worry for a way longer period of time. Condi is continuous. It doesn't matter if you can do those with condition attacks. They are pointlessin a fight where then opponent just keeps pumping out conditions. You would have to LoS the whole time. How would I fight on point? The intensity of condition dmg ruined the pvp combat 100%. 

 

Like I said, no good pvp game adds heavey dot dmg. Theres clearly a good reason for that. 

[Morwath.9817]

5 hours ago, Beast Sos.1457 said:

Condi dmg is so much easier to stack. If I'm vsing a firebrand and cleanse the burns, another fat stack of it is coming my way very soon. It doesn't stop. If I'm vsing a DH I can bait out his combos then I don't have to worry for a way longer period of time. Condi is continuous. It doesn't matter if you can do those with condition attacks. They are pointlessin a fight where then opponent just keeps pumping out conditions. You would have to LoS the whole time. How would I fight on point? The intensity of condition dmg ruined the pvp combat 100%. 

 

Like I said, no good pvp game adds heavey dot dmg. Theres clearly a good reason for that. 

 

Because Fireband is an issue...