Most players don't know how much dps they do

[ovenglove.9528]

On 3/19/2022 at 2:14 AM, Valfar.3761 said:

I shamelessly admit that I am what the OP despises. A filthy casual.

 

I'm not a teenager with unlimited free time to spend hours reading the latest Icyveins guide on how to play my spec for the latest WoW patch anymore. I have limited free time, and I just want to sit down and play a game. I don't play Samurai in FFXIV because I'm good at it. I play it because it's cool. Likewise in GW2 I just use what feels good and get on with playing the actual game. If I was forced to get my crap together then I'd sooner quit and play something else TBH.

Honestly I think you may be playingthis game right, and may actually be having more fun than most of the people that take it to seriously.

[Gerrick.7489]

I really enjoy knowing how much damage I'm doing and trying to work on my rotation to improve it. But honestly with the Special Forces area available I don't really feel a need for a DPS meter to be active all the time. It's nice for practicing but it gets in the way when doing content.

[blp.3489]

It seems like it would be pretty easy, and pretty unobtrusive to add another option to the chat panel combat options that gave DPS similar to the combat zone golem or arcdps.  All that it needs is some aggregation rather than a stream of single action numbers.  I seriously doubt that would ruin the game for anyone and the people that want it could use it.

[Kulvar.1239]

If you put a DPS meter in game, you're making the game about the DPS meter.

And then that's all that matter to players.

Handling mechanics properly, succeeding, and doing it with spare time are the only metrics the game need.

[Rasimir.6239]

9 hours ago, Shaigat.8935 said:

people who don't play for fun but for satisfaction

If satisfaction rather than entertainment is your goal, then a heavily open-world game like GW2 doesn't look like a good fit for you. Excluding the majority of people who are here for entertainment just so you can get your satisfaction of being "better" just isn't a sound business model. There are plenty of more instanced and challenge focussed games out there.

 

This is coming from somebody who's been there with you, playing MUDs as a young adult back in the late 80s and early 90s (on both sides), progression raiding in MMOs, in one memorable instance even main-healing a 30-minute endgame raid with a crying toddler on my lap.

 

Life happens, priorities change, societies change. To me, the biggest satisfaction in multiplayer games has always been dealing with the combination of content and fellow players. That's where real skill comes in, being able to adapt to additional challenges that each new combination of encounter and people in it brings. If all your satisfaction comes from being able to follow a strict choreography with an interchangeable group of robots all functioning the same and following the same choreography, then maybe a modern multiplayer game that tries to be inclusive to a vast array of people isn't the right fit for your needs.

 

I get it, there is something incredibly satisfying in beating a challenge, but no mechanical challenge in GW2 is set up in a way that you need a team of playing meta best-dps rotations all the way through, to beat a challenge. This isn't the game for that, and even the new fights in EoD, no matter if instanced (strikes) or open world (EoD meta) don't require it. They do require a certain baseline, and they require those that can to adapt to what the others can bring to the fight.

 

All people have the ability to change and improve. Many people do, given the right parameters. Encouragement and assistance goes a long way here. Gatekeeping and exclusion does not. Telling people off for not playing the way you want them to isn't going to help your case, it's just making them not even try any more, and ultimately dwindling the chances for more content that you enjoy, since there's no sound business case for creating stuff for a tiny part of the community that scare away the rest of the playerbase.

[god fragment.5716]

So this is basically another DE meta discuson, unless there are other examples you can give. DPS was never an issue in open world or anywhere outside T4+ fractals, certain strikes and raids where people use arcdps anyway. Even there a DPS meter is a secondary indicator, since you can see that there isn't enough dps if the timer runs out or a dps mechanic fails even though you managed to do all the mechanics correctly. The same is true if the group doesn't have enough cc. A dps meter would also go against the "play as you like" philosophy of the game and would be a bad design choice, because it would undermine the more organic indicators of dps the game designers implemented and would move the game closer to a "only numbers matter" philosophy that gw2 managed to avoid by not having a progressive gear system. 

As for the DE meta, I don't belive a dps meter wouldn't solve the issue anyway, because dps isn't the problem or shouldn't be. I personally will be avoiding it until I can reliably clear it in open world trailblazer gear.

[blp.3489]

3 hours ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

If all your satisfaction comes from being able to follow a strict choreography with an interchangeable group of robots all functioning the same and following the same choreography

That does a good job of articulating why I don't find some of the instanced content attractive.  I don't really get satisfaction from arbitrary game "mechanics" that need to be memorized and timed and seem to only exist to complicate play.  "Choreography" pretty much captures it.  More power to those that do enjoy it though.

 

3 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

If you put a DPS meter in game, you're making the game about the DPS meter.

And then that's all that matter to players.

I think the people to whom the game would be all about DPS are already using arcDPS.  Having a checkbox in the chat window that allowed you to monitor your DPS would allow people to experiment with builds and stats and skills and see what effect changes have.  ArcDPS is already there but I've uninstalled it a few times because it causes problems after game updates.

I doubt that people that only enjoy PvP and Raids and challenge mode fractals are ever going to completely share a vision for the game with the people who only enjoy running around the open world.

Before Dragon's End I generally gauged a build by going to the Silverwastes where I am very familiar with the creatures and champions and see how the profession/build perform relative to my recollections of using other characters.  Do I get downed over and over?  Do I take forever to kill a given creature?  There's certainly more to it than just DPS but I see no harm in having convenient indicators of the damage I'm doing.

[god fragment.5716]

1 hour ago, blp.3489 said:

Before Dragon's End I generally gauged a build by going to the Silverwastes where I am very familiar with the creatures and champions and see how the profession/build perform relative to my recollections of using other characters.  Do I get downed over and over?  Do I take forever to kill a given creature?

That's how dps gauging is ment to be done in rpg games 🙂 That's why there are no dps meters in any games of this type.

[Tachenon.5270]

2 hours ago, blp.3489 said:

That does a good job of articulating why I don't find some of the instanced content attractive.  I don't really get satisfaction from arbitrary game "mechanics" that need to be memorized and timed and seem to only exist to complicate play.  "Choreography" pretty much captures it.  More power to those that do enjoy it though.

Before Dragon's End I generally gauged a build by going to the Silverwastes where I am very familiar with the creatures and champions and see how the profession/build perform relative to my recollections of using other characters.  Do I get downed over and over?  Do I take forever to kill a given creature?  There's certainly more to it than just DPS but I see no harm in having convenient indicators of the damage I'm doing.

'Choreography' is a good word for it. I've always referred to it as 'Hokey Pokey Boss Fights'.

I test a lot of builds at the Hero Challenge northeast of Amnoon, in the Sifuri Sand Sea, where it often seems like you're not just fighting that djinn, but one or two hydras, some awakened patrols, and a couple hundred sand lions, eels, and sharks. During one of the betas I kept throwing a Willbender into that mess, and he kept getting slaughtered. First attempt with a Catalyst -- win! Still haven't rolled one, though...

And sometimes I hit that event in the Forged Foothold, if I want to test without any outside interference. Heh. I think I've seen one other person there, once. My beta Vindicator did quite well there.

[Mongori.9467]

Hi,
I'm a casual player, a very casual player. I don't do instanced group content whenever I can avoid it. No fractals, strikes, whatever. I don't see any fun in learning/ training scripted boss encounters, nor do I desire to be part of a guild/ group/ etc.
I did some WvW to get my warclaw, but didn't have much fun in it. You'd not want me on your side there, I guess :)

I enjoy roaming the open world as an individual, to help on map events or to support other players, but rarely even join a group. My fun is competing with the game, not with other players.

 

But I support the OP with asking for an option to measure ones DPS.

Having learned about the existence of the DPS golem in aerodrome/special forces area I went there & tried some of my chars. Very educational, IMHO!

I see me visiting there more often, it gives quite some help how some specs actually perform, and where there some adjusting might be needed! (fun fact: most of my chars do ~ 3K unbuffed at most, so even the weakest golem is quite oversized ...)

 

I'd love to have such one in my home instance!

With an option to plot a diagram so I can watch burst as well as sustained damage. Maybe even with an option to retaliate with adjustable damage so I can check my healing. Or even 3 tiny golems that respawn on 'death'? This could be a lot of fun, and might help some ppl to 'git gooder'!

 

I understand those that oppose DPS meters. There's valid reasons!

But I think, assuming some creativity, there could be a way to reap the benefits w/o suffering the drawbacks, don't you think?

 

Have fun!

[Vayne.8563]

On 3/7/2022 at 7:30 AM, Vilin.8056 said:

 

 

3. A vast majority of players simply can't handle that much information, they are too casual, too old of age, and even less motivated to dive into deep mechanics. Feeding them more information isn't going to help.

Yes, because young people on the whole are much more able to handle information and focus and concentrate in order to apply it. Ageist much?

[Tukaram.8256]

On 3/19/2022 at 10:14 AM, Valfar.3761 said:

I shamelessly admit that I am what the OP despises. A filthy casual.

 

I'm not a teenager with unlimited free time to spend hours reading the latest Icyveins guide on how to play my spec for the latest WoW patch anymore. I have limited free time, and I just want to sit down and play a game. I don't play Samurai in FFXIV because I'm good at it. I play it because it's cool. Likewise in GW2 I just use what feels good and get on with playing the actual game. If I was forced to get my crap together then I'd sooner quit and play something else TBH.

On 4/10/2022 at 9:28 PM, blp.3489 said:

That does a good job of articulating why I don't find some of the instanced content attractive.  I don't really get satisfaction from arbitrary game "mechanics" that need to be memorized and timed and seem to only exist to complicate play.  "Choreography" pretty much captures it.  More power to those that do enjoy it though.

 

Filthy casual here, too.  I play for fun. Memorizing button combos and stressing over a build... is not fun for me. Not gonna do it. 

[kharmin.7683]

4 hours ago, Tukaram.8256 said:

Filthy casual here, too.  I play for fun. Memorizing button combos and stressing over a build... is not fun for me. Not gonna do it. 

Yep. Which is why I don't engage in strikes/raids or even fractals. 

[yann.1946]

5 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Yes, because young people on the whole are much more able to handle information and focus and concentrate in order to apply it. Ageist much?

Well younger people are on average better at learning new things. But I agree with the sentiment of your response, it's a way to broad generalization to just say that the playerbase is to old. 🙂

[Vilin.8056]

8 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Yes, because young people on the whole are much more able to handle information and focus and concentrate in order to apply it. Ageist much?

Here's the question:

Are you an exception of that #3 statement?

Edited April 12, 2022 by Vilin.8056

[Tungsten Monarch.6058]

8 hours ago, Tukaram.8256 said:

Filthy casual here, too.  I play for fun. Memorizing button combos and stressing over a build... is not fun for me. Not gonna do it. 

Filthy casual here too. One of the reasons I loved GW1 was the casual feel of it all. The ability to do Urgoz with a simple Ranger build or heal using a simple heal build was very appealing. GW2 dev's have simply ruined the idea of doing raids or strike missions for me though I'd love to do them just for the visuals or lore, I cannot as age has accumulated.

[Vayne.8563]

2 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Here's the question:

Are you an exception of that #3 statement?

My experience with younger thinkers, not entirely but as a whole, is that they do indeed handle huge amounts of information because they're constantly bombarded by information. This leads them to accept answers they find quickly which is why there's so much misinformation out there. Because the first answer you come across isn't necessarily the best or even right.

I've dealt with thousands of people over all sorts of age groups since starting this game. I've run a guild for 10 years (yes it was a pre launch guild) and I've seen young people and old people learn the game.  It make take old people a bit longer but a lot of young people flit from game to game and never learn anything. They see someone say something on youtube once and that because their "truth".  Not all young people, but with all the constant bombardment of information fast is more efficient than deep. We used to call it the mtv generation.  Less attention span in general because there's always something waiting in the wings demanding that attention.

 

Now, the older people that I know do digest slower, chew on information longer, but they also think about stuff deeply and draw conclusions from it. And yes of course, not all older people are gamers but many are. The people that played Ultima Online and stayed with MMOs over the years don't have trouble learning Guild Wars 2 as a rule. My own problem is more with pain and physical endurance. 

When I was younger I used to think I was smarter and new it all.  I was wrong. I knew different stuff. I reacted quicker and came to decisions faster. But now I think things through more because I learned. I can't talk for all older or younger people (I've seen people different from my previous description in both categories), but you know, I might be an exception but I don't think that's the case.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Vayne.8563

[jamesg.7128]

I'm a casual and also older gamer (anyone else remember Temple of Apshai?) but I do occasionally do fractals and more recently strikes for the first time.

I run Arcdps because

1. I want to get an idea of how much damage I'm doing

2. How I compare against other people or classes and

3. Because I don't want to be a drag on the group I'm in.

While I may never be top of the list, I'm satisfied that I'm not at the bottom either.

[Vilin.8056]

3 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

My experience with younger thinkers, not entirely but as a whole, is that they do indeed handle huge amounts of information because they're constantly bombarded by information. This leads them to accept answers they find quickly which is why ....

The subject is about player skill in DPS (therefore DPS meter) and how they correlate with the general communities inside the game. 

You clearly avoided my question. But those of us lingered in this forum already have an answer:

According to all your previous messages, you're over age 60+,  have 12+ accounts, 10 years of playing time, owning a lv 69 guild, have nearly every single legendary (except the armor, obviously) and countless amount of gold.

Yet, you also openly admitted not able to do good DPS, you're furiously against intergrading Strike Missions into meta achievements. And you're admitted to be a burden inside a raid squad, so much that you have no choice but to try to acquire your legendary armor by farming participation in PvP despite not able to be competitive.

That skill gap has nothing to do with the lack of resources, playtime, dedication, or community support, which also makes one very clear example of what I stated.

However you view other players inside your guild is purely subjective, many other players inside this thread also clearly pointed out their age issue. There is no shame in admitting it.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Vilin.8056

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Vilin.8056 said:

The subject is about player skill in DPS (therefore DPS meter) and how they correlate with the general communities inside the game. 

You clearly avoided my question. But those of us lingered in this forum already have an answer:

According to all your previous messages, you're over age 60+,  have 12+ accounts, 10 years of playing time, owning a lv 69 guild, have nearly every single legendary (except the armor, obviously) and countless amount of gold.

Yet, you also openly admitted not able to do good DPS, you're furiously against intergrading Strike Missions into meta achievements. And you're admitted to be a burden inside a raid squad, so much that you have no choice but to try to acquire your legendary armor by farming participation in PvP despite not able to be competitive.

That skill gap has nothing to do with the lack of resources, playtime, dedication, or community support, which also makes one very clear example of what I stated.

However you view other players inside your guild is purely subjective, many other players inside this thread also clearly pointed out their age issue. There is no shame in admitting it.

And yet I know how much DPS I do, which was your point. I know precisely how much.

 

I also CAN do higher DPS when the situation warrants it. I sit around 15k on the practice dummy with most classes.  Saying that old people don't have or can't have that information is wrong. Old people might not have the endurance to maintain a rotation for an entire raid though. 

The conversation is very simple. 

People don't know how much damage they do, particularly casuals or older people.

 

I know how much damage I do, but my physical limitations sometimes prevent me from doing the damage I might do if I were younger.

 

KNOWING isn't the problem.  Excecution is the problem for me.  And I know other older people that do execute high damage quite well, because they're healthier than I am.

So what exactly is the point if your post?

[Mungrul.9358]

I remember on release the devs saying they didn't want GW2 to be all about DPS rotations.

Now look at the sorry state we're in 😞

[yann.1946]

30 minutes ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

I remember on release the devs saying they didn't want GW2 to be all about DPS rotations.

Now look at the sorry state we're in 😞

It still isn't though.(although it depends on what you call a dps rotation) The bigger problem though is that for PvE specifically eventually every encounter without rng can be reduced to some rotation, and people don't really like rng in their encounters is De us any metric. 

 

They've been moving more and more away from dps rotations btw, although this results in more presence of burst rotations. 

[Vilin.8056]

7 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I know how much damage I do, but my physical limitations sometimes prevent me from doing the damage I might do if I were younger.

Thank you.

[AliamRationem.5172]

4 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

I remember on release the devs saying they didn't want GW2 to be all about DPS rotations.

Now look at the sorry state we're in 😞

It isn't all about DPS rotations.  They've actually gone out of their way to ensure that the easiest rotations deal the most damage.  See willbender, virtuoso, mechanist.  They want there to be easy options that anyone can perform well on.

I think this is misguided, however.  Even with extremely forgiving rotations and builds that practically play themselves, factors that separate different types of players will come to bear.  This is the natural result when you attempt to force these players into playing the game the same way such as we do by requiring content like strike missions or the DE meta for personal advancement.

Sorry, but even if you're just pushing 2 buttons for 90% of your damage, a player who cares about their performance and focuses on improvement will dramatically outperform players who can't or won't do these things.  So instead of using backward design that rewards the easiest rotations, how about just stop trying to force players to play content they don't want to play? 

I think everyone would be happier that way.  Players who enjoy complexity and difficulty wouldn't feel like this game caters only to the lowest common denominator of skill while players who have no interest in improving pointless skills in a video game wouldn't feel compelled to participate in content that requires a minimum of that.

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

Wish anet made those jade protocol offensive buffs to get applied every 10-15 secs instead of only after entering combat. if that's the case, no need for subgroup comps in squad no extra organizing required, no extra emphasis on proper gearing and proper rotations required to succeed the DragonEnd meta and PPL won't even complain here...