Vindicator is an awful desgin

[Jables.4659]

I knew Vindicator was going to be flawed when I read that it would only have one dodge.  The rest of it literally doesn't matter.  You can't create a spec with a single dodge in Guild Wars 2.  It was never going to work with Mirage (which still needs deep design changes to function without being oppressive), and it will never work with Vindicator.   

[Za Shaloc.3908]

7 hours ago, Jables.4659 said:

I knew Vindicator was going to be flawed when I read that it would only have one dodge.  The rest of it literally doesn't matter.  You can't create a spec with a single dodge in Guild Wars 2.  It was never going to work with Mirage (which still needs deep design changes to function without being oppressive), and it will never work with Vindicator.   

 

It's sad that after all this time Mirage has had one dodge, they still thought it was a good idea to implement it on a new elite spec. 

[Buran.3796]

5 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

 

It's sad that after all this time Mirage has had one dodge, they still thought it was a good idea to implement it on a new elite spec. 

  They don't care about PvP/WvW. Firebrand being a totally dead horse in PvP for more than a year doesn't worry them a bit since is widely used in OW and utterly meta in instanced content. If they don't bother about the most popular spec in the game being utterly absent in a game mode, why would they care about the most niche class performance in competitive modes.

   The twist in the screenplay is that I think they have overestimated the appealing of some of the new specs: I don't see most of them replacing the current meta in most of game modes, ouside maybe Mechanist, Specter or Hrabinger.

[Kulvar.1239]

On 3/16/2022 at 8:02 PM, Zenith.7301 said:

Most builds don't even provide reliable vigor, so Vindicator's trait enhancing Vigor is completely kitten as you only get 4 seconds of vigor per dodge on a meta DPS vindicator build with no reliable external providers of vigor in a raid.

 

And for some reason Energy meld is still terrible with a cast time and 10 energy cost for half a dodge bar and nothing else.

Mechanist and Specter can provide perma Vigor to 5 players. Druid has a build variant that provide some Vigor too.

Spirit Boon + Alliance Legend gives Vigor too.

 

I will assume 0 boon duration on the revenant for the following results.

The percentages use for reference a regular profession which has 1 dodge every 5s, or 3.33s with perma-Vigor.

Baseline Vindicator has 1 dodge every 10s, or 6.67s with perma-Vigor. (200% slower, 200% slower)

Reaver's Curse on 1 target is 1 dodge every 9.5s, or 6.33s with perma-Vigor. (190% slower, 190% slower)

Reaver's Curse on 3 targets is 1 dodge every 8.5s, or 5.67s with perma-Vigor. (170% slower, 170% slower)

Reaver's Curse on 5 targets is 1 dodge every 7.5s, or 5s with perma-Vigor. (150% slower, 150% slower)

Song of Arboreum is 1 dodge every 6.25s, or 5.72s with perma-Vigor. (125% slower, 172% slower)

 

The main issue is that Leviathan Strength requires you to not be full endurance but with only 1 dodge available you can't use it as soon as it's available.

 

The solution IMO :

Give back 2 dodges at 50 endurance, but to have endurance regeneration halved.

Leviathan Strength a +5% damage 10s buff given upon dodging, not while endurance is not full.

Reaver's Curse restore 5 endurance, plus 2 endurance per target up to 5 targets.

 

The new values would be :

Baseline Vindicator has 1 dodge every 10s, or 6.67s with perma-Vigor. (200% slower, 200% slower)

Reaver's Curse on 1 target is 1 dodge every 8.6s, or 5.73s with perma-Vigor. (172% slower, 172% slower)

Reaver's Curse on 3 targets is 1 dodge every 7.8s, or 5.2s with perma-Vigor. (156% slower, 156% slower)

Reaver's Curse on 5 targets is 1 dodge every 7s, or 4.67s with perma-Vigor. (140% slower, 140% slower)

Song of Arboreum is 1 dodge every 6.25s, or 5.72s with perma-Vigor. (125% slower, 172% slower)

 

With these changes, a vindicator could sacrifice half its endurance to keep the buff up yet have reserve endurance for an emergency. Also, it makes Reaver's Curse more competitive with Song of Arboreum.

The nerf to Leviathan Strength is because it's easier to upkeep. Using the dodge more often than 10s is incentivize by the damage of the dodge already.

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by Kulvar.1239

[Anonynja.3172]

On 3/16/2022 at 2:09 PM, Eckee.4038 said:

Yep, my points.

I don't care about the numbers, as I said before, they can be adjusted. You can create a spec with 50k dps skill, 1200 defiance damage with 12 sec stun, another skill applying 25 stacks of vuln and might. That wouldn't make it a good spec. Similarly, you can boost Vindicator skill numbers and make it a 50k dps benchmark spec, this still wouldn't make it a great spec.

I'm interested in the lack of design principles.

As some kind of a designer myself (architect), playing this spec hurts me so much. It doesn't carry anything from the original Revenant design principles.

 

Some people said Renegade wasn't good either, well I agree but I tried to focus on Vindicator only because Rene is a dead horse at this point. And at least short bow skill animations and effects feel like they belong to Revenant and the trait line can be adapted to many different play styles with different legends.

Yes! The shortbow and Orders from Above animations make the Renegade feel right. Its utility skills summing stationary spirits carry design threads from Guild Wars 1's Ritualist. There's nothing wrong with the concept behind the Vindicator. The dual legend alliance is a great tie-in with Cantha and adds playstyle options for Revenants. 

I'm also a designer doing human-centered design. My bias as a player is that I only play PvE. I recognize the Vindicator's chase ability in competitive play from GS 3, Nomad's Advance, and dodge as well as the Spear's long range. And as we've said, it's not underpowered at all in PvE. The numbers aren't the problem.

My hope is that Anet will work on the thematic consistency and internal synergy of the Vindicator. It's not in a bad place but deserves more attention. As a community we have identified low hanging fruit ripe for change:

1) Energy Meld is the biggest offender right now. All it does is negate some of the endurance loss from choosing Vindicator in the first place. Make it interact with the rest of the spec. It could instacast while dodging, or incentivize pre-casting before dodge or alliance abilities, or have unique effects based on your legend attunement. This one skill is an easy place for Anet to create internal synergy without doing much work.

2) All three master traits currently just give endurance in different ways with no real trade-off. Trade-offs make choices interesting. Super simple change: Just change the benefits of Reaver's Curse and Angsiyan's Trust. I recommend a damage effect for Reaver's Curse and a CC effect for Angsiyan's Trust. Leave Song of Arboreum untouched, because area Vigor is a unique support option and thematically appropriate. Leave the conditions for the other two the same - "for each target affected by dodge", which encourages an aggressive playstyle, and "when switching legends or activating Alliance Tactics", which encourages hybrid play. These traits are so close to being great.

3) The minor trait, Balance in Discord, could have a more meaningful effect upon switching legends than simply healing. The heal is non-trivial, but it's also flat/non-interactive, rewarding reactive rather than proactive play. Empire Divided on the other hand is nicely designed to complement how you're playing. If you're playing DPS, Empire Divided helps you heal out of trouble, and if you're playing support, it synergizes with the health sacrifice from Urn of Saint Viktor.

4) Greatsword 2 uses the same animation as its auto-attack. That not only looks bad but means auto-attack can bait dodges in PvP. We've seen plenty of players beg for new animations. At the very least recycle a different animation for one of these.

5) Some people like the Final Fantasy dragoon reference with the new dodge's high jump, but it doesn't fit the Revenant. A simple fix without changing 3D animation or disappointing dragoon-lovers could be: Have the Vindicator vanish into the Mists at the start of the animation and while the player aims its ground reticle, reappearing as it smashes down. Add the existing Mists particle effect from the core Revenant dodge. 

Edited March 18, 2022 by Anonynja.3172

[Fwog.9387]

I like that i can roleplay a dragoon but i could honestly care less about the rest of the elite. I agree, it does just feel like a random set of skills. 

[Angesombre.4630]

4 hours ago, Anonynja.3172 said:

5) Some people like the Final Fantasy dragoon reference with the new dodge's high jump, but it doesn't fit the Revenant. A simple fix without changing 3D animation or disappointing dragoon-lovers could be: Have the Vindicator vanish into the Mists at the start of the animation and while the player aims its ground reticle, reappearing as it smashes down. Add the existing Mists particle effect from the core Revenant dodge. 

It is true that it could be an idea on the fact of making a little like the ele in mist mode but not necessarily visible, that would make it possible to be able to move and health a possible small step which is not possible currently with the jump in the air which can block for a nothing.

[Pumpkin.5169]

I gotta agree with OP. Vindicator is a terrible design.

It has no cohesion, it has no flow. It is just a bunch of ideas strapped together, and they don't work.

 

If you see the other legends and weapons from the Revenant, everything else has a flow: Shiro has a skill to go in, a second one to hit harder, and the last one to get out. It makes sense with the theme, and it feels good to play. Mace and axe, both weapons have combos within themselves (Mace 2 into 3, Axe 5 into 4) and also combos with the two weapons together (Axe 5, Mace 2, Mace 3). The weaponset feels good to play, it makes sense as design. It clicks. There are more examples, but those two are enough for my point.

 

Now, look at greatsword. It was no flow at all, it is just a bunch of obligatory checks:

- It is supposed to be a cleaving weapon, so we gotta add a cleave. GS 2, check.

- It is a melee weapon, so a gap closer is nice. GS 3, check.

- I guess we could use a block, as we gonna use our evades offensively? GS 4, check.

- Uuuh, dunno, let's get a bigger AoE. GS 5, check.

 

But those skills don't flow well together. There's no combo. Sure, gap closer into cleave into a big skill, the most basic thing ever. And it still feels bad because every single skill have terrible animations and effects, a bad hit detection that makes using them very frustrating and they all feel very unimpactful. The leap from Guardian's GS feels leagues better than Vindicator's GS, for example. And it has a much better combo flow, with going in, pulling foes to you and then using a symbol at your feet and spinning.

 

And the little flow that the spec was supposed to have (switching from Archimorus to Saint Victor and vice-versa) got destroyed in the beta. Don't get me wrong: it was a good change. But for example, with the automatic stance changes, we had a gap closer followed by a gap creator + evade, something that Vindicator needs. Now, we need extra steps to get it which makes playing the spec super clunky.

 

And again, the skills themselves aren't good too. They don't flow well together.

For example: Nomad's Advance is a gap closer, puts you in front of your foe. But then you have Scavenger's Burst which is an AoE at your cursor. You need to gap close and then use this skill in your feet so you can get your buff and also hit the foe. It feels terrible having to spam a circle at your feet with your mouse.
It feels good to use an AoE circle far away from you as a buff or as a damage skill (like plenty in the game) and it feels good to have a circle to drop automatically at your feet (like symbols). But it doesn't feel good to have to drop a circle at your feet with your cursor. It gets tiresome really fast. And let's not talk about the elites. 

 

But we also need to talk about the dodge.

Mirage uses its dodges offensively, but it doesn't take away the control from the player while dodging, so it feels good. Daredevil also uses its dodges offensively, but it has more dodges, not less, so it is okay.

Vindicator uses its dodges offensively, but it has fewer dodges and it takes away the control from the player for longer. So it feels really, really bad to use. Even more, when dodging ASAP and on cooldown is the best way to deal damage (with the bonus from Leviathan's Strenght and Forerunner of Death). You may wanna hold your dodge to actually evade a mechanic, but if you do it, you're doing less 25% damage, which is immense.

 

What about Energy Meld with Vindicator? It is just...there. One button that doesn't feels good, is far from being practical for evading purposes (if something comes in the way I first need to activate it and then dodge) and for damaging purposes, just adds a extra step to it for no good reason. What is the design behind it?

 

Vindicator was rushed (as most of EoD, actually) and it really shows. There's no easy fix, as one easy fix (the skills no longer changing to their counterpart after using them) brought different problems. It needs a Scrapper-level rework. I just hope it doesn't take years to get it.

 

Honestly, to begin with, a good thing would be to remove Energy Meld and swap it for a skill that is the new dodge mechanic itself, so Vindicators could still have a regular dodge (just one is fine). And also make this new F1 dodge much faster, with less i-frames, to make it more snappy and rewards those with good timings. With the jump-dodge being on F1 and Vindicator still having one regular dodge, no one would miss the stamina buff from Energy Meld.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Pumpkin.5169

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

On 3/17/2022 at 7:11 PM, Kulvar.1239 said:

Mechanist and Specter can provide perma Vigor to 5 players. Druid has a build variant that provide some Vigor too.

Spirit Boon + Alliance Legend gives Vigor too.

 

I will assume 0 boon duration on the revenant for the following results.

The percentages use for reference a regular profession which has 1 dodge every 5s, or 3.33s with perma-Vigor.

Baseline Vindicator has 1 dodge every 10s, or 6.67s with perma-Vigor. (200% slower, 200% slower)

Reaver's Curse on 1 target is 1 dodge every 9.5s, or 6.33s with perma-Vigor. (190% slower, 190% slower)

Reaver's Curse on 3 targets is 1 dodge every 8.5s, or 5.67s with perma-Vigor. (170% slower, 170% slower)

Reaver's Curse on 5 targets is 1 dodge every 7.5s, or 5s with perma-Vigor. (150% slower, 150% slower)

Song of Arboreum is 1 dodge every 6.25s, or 5.72s with perma-Vigor. (125% slower, 172% slower)

 

The main issue is that Leviathan Strength requires you to not be full endurance but with only 1 dodge available you can't use it as soon as it's available.

 

The solution IMO :

Give back 2 dodges at 50 endurance, but to have endurance regeneration halved.

Leviathan Strength a +5% damage 10s buff given upon dodging, not while endurance is not full.

Reaver's Curse restore 5 endurance, plus 2 endurance per target up to 5 targets.

 

The new values would be :

Baseline Vindicator has 1 dodge every 10s, or 6.67s with perma-Vigor. (200% slower, 200% slower)

Reaver's Curse on 1 target is 1 dodge every 8.6s, or 5.73s with perma-Vigor. (172% slower, 172% slower)

Reaver's Curse on 3 targets is 1 dodge every 7.8s, or 5.2s with perma-Vigor. (156% slower, 156% slower)

Reaver's Curse on 5 targets is 1 dodge every 7s, or 4.67s with perma-Vigor. (140% slower, 140% slower)

Song of Arboreum is 1 dodge every 6.25s, or 5.72s with perma-Vigor. (125% slower, 172% slower)

 

With these changes, a vindicator could sacrifice half its endurance to keep the buff up yet have reserve endurance for an emergency. Also, it makes Reaver's Curse more competitive with Song of Arboreum.

The nerf to Leviathan Strength is because it's easier to upkeep. Using the dodge more often than 10s is incentivize by the damage of the dodge already.

 

The spec doesn't need more dodges, it just needs more damage to justify its glassier-ness.  If they were to nerf Leviathan's Strength like you say, then they'd need to buff Vindicator elsewhere in compensation.  Remember, the spec is also losing damage come summer when all power classes are going to be hit harder than condi by the banner/spirit removal.  It's already a "middle of the road" damage spec and doesn't need to be reduced further.  It only needs some slight buffs. 

[Legend of Rogue.5394]

On 3/10/2022 at 12:50 PM, Eckee.4038 said:

It's not even a design, it's random things put together. It's nothing Revenant has ever been and I bet everything I have that it wasn't designed by the people who designed core Revenant.

 

They should have done ritualist with scepter on revenant, They blew the opportunity and messed it up. Having imobile shades like GW1 was the best thing in the game at the time. Those shades took a beating and synergized so well. Anet really has no clue what they are doing

[Thornwolf.9721]

5 hours ago, Legend of Rogue.5394 said:

They should have done ritualist with scepter on revenant, They blew the opportunity and messed it up. Having imobile shades like GW1 was the best thing in the game at the time. Those shades took a beating and synergized so well. Anet really has no clue what they are doing

I feel like them being stationary would be too much like kalla. Perhaps have them float behind you? As a F2-F5 set of abilities that utilize upkeep and do various affects? Then the utilities could be some form of the other traitlines along with the weapon skills being focused around channeling?  This way they move with us and work more like a functional aura that are like sand-shades or maybe something similar to how specter currently works?

[ScottBroChill.3254]

15 minutes ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

I feel like them being stationary would be too much like kalla. Perhaps have them float behind you? As a F2-F5 set of abilities that utilize upkeep and do various affects? Then the utilities could be some form of the other traitlines along with the weapon skills being focused around channeling?  This way they move with us and work more like a functional aura that are like sand-shades or maybe something similar to how specter currently works?

Like they could have done a bunch of different stuff. They could have gone the channeling or restoration route, if they went the spirit route I think they could have done a kinda like mixture between necro minions and mesmer clones in that you would get spirits who were chained to you or something and they could either be like minions who stick around and do their effects, or act like ammo/resources for different effects. they could have even made it where you summon the spirit of whoever your channeling. I know minions and etc. probably aren't ideal things because AI is never a good thing to rely on, but it's just ideas on how they could innact some kind of creativity to make it work. Just something to bring in the dark, ghostly, spooky vibe that we all thought the rev would have but never got. Even a shroud type mechanic of stepping between the spirit world and using more magic could have been cool. 

[Thornwolf.9721]

4 minutes ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

Like they could have done a bunch of different stuff. They could have gone the channeling or restoration route, if they went the spirit route I think they could have done a kinda like mixture between necro minions and mesmer clones in that you would get spirits who were chained to you or something and they could either be like minions who stick around and do their effects, or act like ammo/resources for different effects. they could have even made it where you summon the spirit of whoever your channeling. I know minions and etc. probably aren't ideal things because AI is never a good thing to rely on, but it's just ideas on how they could innact some kind of creativity to make it work. Just something to bring in the dark, ghostly, spooky vibe that we all thought the rev would have but never got. Even a shroud type mechanic of stepping between the spirit world and using more magic could have been cool. 

I mean if thief can get a "darkness shroud" then anything can become a shroud, spirit shroud sounds kind of cool... now that I think about it.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

Man, I don't miss the double dodge. I quite like the elite, I've not tried it in wvw yet because the dodge is definitely... dodgy, there. But in open world it's loads of fun. Vindi gives you so many tools to work with, the skill flip is like a third legend. I no longer run through the same legend/weapon double swap as I used to with regular Rev to cycle every available offensive skill. With Vindi you can easily aggro huge clouds of mobs and simply mix in some blue skills to increase sustain when needed. It's pretty great, to be honest. I thought it'd suck kitten but there we go. Nothing beats the satisfaction of finishing a fight with dropping onto someone's head.

[Legend of Rogue.5394]

16 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

I feel like them being stationary would be too much like kalla. Perhaps have them float behind you? As a F2-F5 set of abilities that utilize upkeep and do various affects? Then the utilities could be some form of the other traitlines along with the weapon skills being focused around channeling?  This way they move with us and work more like a functional aura that are like sand-shades or maybe something similar to how specter currently works?

I can see that, I just loved carrying Urns around and beating peoples face in with them on GW1. So much fun

[suialthor.7164]

I hate anything that limits dodge or turns dodge into a rotation.  If they want to "get creative" with dodge then it needs to be done in a way that is completely optional.

[Ausar.9542]

On 3/15/2022 at 7:10 PM, ShionKreth.1542 said:

My theory for vindicator is it was supposed to have some theme that the jump dodge was an integral part of, but then it was changed and changed during development until that was the only element of the original design left. 

it wwas. the beta had diffeent dodge base on grandmaster traits

[otto.5684]

Honestly, lack of theme is name of all rev elites. Herald was supposed to be… supporty? It is not. It is just damage and some basic boons. The renegade team party has no theme and does nothing synergistic. And renegade was terrible for years.
 

Vindicator is also lack theme, but I find Vindicator is the most cohesive of the 3. There is decent synergy between the dodges, trait line and the weapon. I find the legend switch inside the legend switch incredibly bad. But I am parked on the red one (pve) and the other one is only for emergencies. Kinda like water for ele. Things could be better. So much better, but at least Vindicator is in a good place. Cannot say the same about most EoD elites.

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

I dunno man Vindicator is by far my favourite elite from EoD so far. It feels cool to play and having two legends that are opposite each other rewards hybrid gear builds, which I feel don't really compliment any other elite spec in the game. The dodge mechanic is awesome and really unique within the game; I love how you can even specialise the function of the dodge towards DPS or healing, or you can leave it balanced between damage and support. I think this might be just a case of the spec not appealing to you. That's all right. There are entire professions that I just don't understand the appeal of.

My only real criticism of Vindicator really is that I don't like switching between legends within the same legend. I thought the dual legend mechanic they originally had in the beta worked a lot better. I didn't really understand the justification for changing it to what it is now — you might want to use the same skill twice in a row? Well too bad? It just flowed better that way.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Elricht Kaltwind.8796

[aceofbass.2163]

I am late to this thread and I could not bother to read all the replies.

 

Just my 2 cents. I LOVE vindicator. It has more of an active playstyle compared to all the other professions.

 

Dodge to damage/heal, utility skills to actually dodge ^^,

 

one side legend for offense, one side legend for sustain.

 

It really makes me think depending on the situation I'm in.

 

The legend itself is, at first I disliked as well but as I learn to use it, the legend/s are actually perfect for the class, lorewise and playstyle wise.  Also, ironically the twin legends blend well with shiro.

 

[Rashagar.8349]

I'm very late to the discussion, but this thread has spawned a potential discussion point with me: 

 

Do you think that Vindicator would work better thematically if they reversed the initial change of the utility skills of 1 rolling over into the other? (Eg. Archemorus skill 7 becomes Saint Viktor skill 7 after use). 

 

While I didn't take part in the betas, that one change of skill 7 A rolling over into skill 7 B seems to make the entire legend make sense to me. 

 

I just can't help wondering if the current lack of substantial theme is a result of Anet not sticking to their guns/vision for the legend.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

On 4/17/2022 at 3:22 PM, Rashagar.8349 said:

I'm very late to the discussion, but this thread has spawned a potential discussion point with me: 

 

Do you think that Vindicator would work better thematically if they reversed the initial change of the utility skills of 1 rolling over into the other? (Eg. Archemorus skill 7 becomes Saint Viktor skill 7 after use). 

 

While I didn't take part in the betas, that one change of skill 7 A rolling over into skill 7 B seems to make the entire legend make sense to me. 

 

I just can't help wondering if the current lack of substantial theme is a result of Anet not sticking to their guns/vision for the legend.

This is what ive proposed. King arthur from Smite works in a similiar way except its whole bar swap on skill use back and forth.

Devs instead listened to bandaid braindead f3 solution instead of fixing core issues and make it fluid (oh look it totally doesnt remind me of situation with weapon swap before!) so enjoy wasted potential in vindi and wasted gs concept for that power dps option rev was missing. lolz

[ugrakarma.9416]

The dodge is a raw copy-paste of boneskinner "nuke" atack. lmao.

 

 

[Jthug.9506]

I actually love it as it is, I think they could buff gs5 somewhat in competitive after nuking it, but once I found sigil of stamina for wvw I was quite pleased with it as a bruiser in zergs. In pve it can perform at the top of the power pile BUT you have to feed it spotter, banners, and ap from another rev. The ideal rev to feed AP in pve is actually heal/alac/boon extension vindicator imo, which is another really good vindicator build I enjoy, although I haven’t seen it shared around as much. It makes a really excellent tank, healer, and boon giver who can also empower the party’s quickness provider to run zero boon duration gear, my only complaint is that the boon dodge area is a bit too small to hit your party reliably while tanking unless they stack super tight. Finally the pure healing variant in wvw is freaking amazing. Tree song is on a 3s cd and it’s fantastic, urn and the la heal are amazing and just keeping tablet bubble on and between you and the enemy is extremely strong, and the stun break functions similarly to the firebrand elite which is excellent but also gives stab, and the backwards dodge is a great source of resistance on a short cd, and with the current immob meta resistance is extremely strong. The condi vindicator builds I have tried leave a lot to be desired however.

 

Fwiw I agree with others here that gs2 in particular could use a more unique animation.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Jthug.9506