possible solutions for hard cc rebuff

[Stand The Wall.6987]

• hard cc's do their normal coefficient damage but can't crit, some other poster suggested this a while back
• they apply a lot of vuln on a short duration (example backbreaker warrior hammer 5, 12 vuln for 4 sec or 20 vuln for 2 sec)
• give them another mechanic such as removing boons (meta needs more boon removal), a combo finisher/ field, very short duration offensive boons on self (nothing more then 2 sec, just might and fury no quickness), add unblockable 
• the possibility of some cc's stripping stab on enemy like berserkers headbutt (cmon self stab strip on this skill needs a change)
• barrier gain on self when you cc someone, but only for extreme circumstances like ele staff or hammer warrior (ele staff will need 1sec cd and would benefit most if the barrier was a lot but could only gain from cc'ing 1 person at a time, this is to help with 1v1 scenarios)
• some combination of the above

well thats all i could come up with for now. you guys got any ideas?

edit - i'm leaning towards a lot of vuln but 2 or even 1 second long. this is to prevent cc stacking in teamfights making everyone have max vuln all the time.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Stand The Wall.6987

[Terrorhuz.4695]

I was ready to rage but this post sounds actually almost reasonable.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

These sound well and good. Anything would be cooler than critting for 13 damage. 

[Aktium.9506]

Only Warrior deserves to have damage back on CC skills. Minus Full Counter. Full Counter and Spellbreaker can stay gone.

[Creativity.3816]

@ArenaNet QA Testing.7408 @ArenaNet Team.4819 @Josh Davis.7865 @Gaile Gray.6029 @Fire Attunement.9835 @Rubi Bayer.8493

 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Spellbreaker and mes should have enough boon rip to be a counter to necro guard.

[Swagg.9236]

CC can have damage the moment dodging breaks stun. 

The reason why CC is even more anti-fun in GW2 than the baseline dreadful experience is because stun breaking in GW2 has extremely arbitrary and asymmetrical availability depending on which class you play.  One can even go so far as to cripple a build by trying to make room for a stunbreak skill (but people still do it because so many stuns and dazes in GW2 are often tied to ranged, instant or passive sources; and nobody is going to contest a focused mode without being subject to, like, seven CC skills spit out simultaneously from several opponents back-to-back).  If there is no universal, resource-limited way of dealing with the fact that so many opponents are going to, with relative impunity, take away a target's ability to play the game, then players need a universal, quick-access stunbreak; not random sprinkles of stunbreaks scattered across a bunch of arbitrary "skill types" which offer zero baseline playstyle synergy (and often outright conflict with or contradict each other).   You can condemn this idea all you want, but what that position really means is that you don't want anything to change and you're all perfectly content running the same 3-6 utilities that every class runs regardless of espec.  You're beyond basic.

CC might have once been a thing to use to secure damage, but right now, with so much CC and damage both based on rotations and also hitting instantly or while insulated by some kind of invulnerability, you really might as well give people the ability to break the rotation chain for some actual combat interaction.  Right now things are so passive because of how damage works and how long CC chains can carry on if left unbroken.  Things border on Shadowverse-tier.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Swagg.9236

[Shao.7236]

Just allowing non critical damage would alleviate a lot and it should be the first thing they try if there was to ever be any changes. Some skills have puny damage as CC's anyway.

 

As long as Stability is still useful then it's a balanced act, don't want to deal with random large chunks on damage when I want to save evades from someone just using CC's over and over.

 

For things like Revenant Stability is much weaker than the other professions just for the fact that it pulses and therefor always first to go if hit by a boon strip. People with Revocation can actually stun Revenants IN their roads while downstate, it's dumb and also why the nerfs to it were really harsh, not counting the Initial being too low before it starts pulsing as well, being a random chance that you just wasted your skill.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Khalisto.5780]

Those are good ideas but tue issue is always the same, they dont follow up with patches fast enough.

 

Lets say 20% of this skills are broken and 20% useless, then we play the game in this state for the next 6, 12, 18 month, and it should be like 6 weeks max, they come with a patch fixing the most troublesome skills, then yes, we could wait another 3 month for the next patch

 

 

 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

3 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

CC can have damage the moment dodging breaks stun. 

i'm not sure about that but i always wondered how gw2 would be if we didn't have to take stunbreaks for 2/3 utilities. forcing ppl to limit their build options for something so vital it might as well be a universal button somewhere doesn't make sense. adding it to dodge does make sense but there are too many endurance regen things out there. if there weren't, then yeah idk might work.

[greedywholesome.9081]

Fair enough. Where do I sign and place the order?

[Swagg.9236]

5 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

i'm not sure about that but i always wondered how gw2 would be if we didn't have to take stunbreaks for 2/3 utilities. forcing ppl to limit their build options for something so vital it might as well be a universal button somewhere doesn't make sense. adding it to dodge does make sense but there are too many endurance regen things out there. if there weren't, then yeah idk might work.

Endurance regen balance is just a numbers game.  That's super easy to manage with half a brain.  The question is why don't players have 2-3 built in stunbreaks for the purpose of build diversity options when everybody would prefer to have 2-3 stunbreaks without completely ruining their builds or constantly picking the same, overpowered but boring instant-buttons that are often best used reactively rather than proactively?  Why isn't a universal mechanic like dodging the source of stunbreaks?

[iKeostuKen.2738]

I like the thought of vulnerability stacks. Makes the most sense. And maybe give the damage back to weapon kits that are slow and focus on cc. Weird that the hard to land skills do less damage then AoE cleave and forget skills anyways.

[Sahne.6950]

petition to just change every single CCskil of warrior to a daze... as daze is still alowed to deal damage... for....reasons.

Edit: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Charge_(soulbeast) 

see... for some Reason Daze skills still kept all their damage when they nerfed the other forms of CC

Edited June 1, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[SlayerXX.7138]

Buff Warrior!

Edited June 1, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

BODY BLOW

^^^^^^ right there^^^^^^

Just make it do power damage instead of 1 stack of bleed, make it scale based on the breakbar damage (1k on pommel bash, 4k on Backbreaker). Stability would negate the damage based on how the trait works. Everyone is happy.

Dispelling force should remove 2 boons in competitive, even if they have stability, and prioritize stability over the other boons.

[Curennos.9307]

- Change all CC to a max duration of 1.5 seconds (to account, at least a little bit, for ping, travel/reaction time, etc). 1 CC -> landing 1 skill of your choice. 3 second CCs are absurd, and getting hit by a CC without a stunbreak should not be a death sentence even from full health unless you're getting hit by the entire enemy team all landing a coordinated burst of their highest damaging strikes (this means fixing warrior though so it'll probably never happen)

- Prevent CC from overlapping. Can be done by making CC effects not stack or giving stunbreaks a brief 1-2 sec CC immunity. Also, stop adding cast times to stunbreaks. When I stunbreak, I'm doing it to immediately dodge - it sucks to stunbreak and have to dodge to not implode, but end up canceling whatever other effect the skill has.

- Add vuln stacks, a unique debuff, whatever when hitting with a CC skill to give the follow up a lil more oomph.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, Curennos.9307 said:

- Change all CC to a max duration of 1.5 seconds (to account, at least a little bit, for ping, travel/reaction time, etc). 1 CC -> landing 1 skill of your choice. 3 second CCs are absurd, and getting hit by a CC without a stunbreak should not be a death sentence even from full health unless you're getting hit by the entire enemy team all landing a coordinated burst of their highest damaging strikes (this means fixing warrior though so it'll probably never happen)

- Prevent CC from overlapping. Can be done by making CC effects not stack or giving stunbreaks a brief 1-2 sec CC immunity. Also, stop adding cast times to stunbreaks. When I stunbreak, I'm doing it to immediately dodge - it sucks to stunbreak and have to dodge to not implode, but end up canceling whatever other effect the skill has.

- Add vuln stacks, a unique debuff, whatever when hitting with a CC skill to give the follow up a lil more oomph.

CC's already override each other and do not overlap. There is also a .75s window where stability cannot be stripped again. 

[Curennos.9307]

27 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

CC's already override each other and do not overlap. There is also a .75s window where stability cannot be stripped again. 

May have typed that out badly - if I'm stunned, I should be stunned for X duration, and throwing another CC at me in the middle of the stun should not replace the stun with another CC and so extend the total duration I'm locked down. If I'm mistaken on how this works, it still def feels like it works this way.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Curennos.9307

[Stand The Wall.6987]

9 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Endurance regen balance is just a numbers game.  That's super easy to manage with half a brain.  The question is why don't players have 2-3 built in stunbreaks for the purpose of build diversity options when everybody would prefer to have 2-3 stunbreaks without completely ruining their builds or constantly picking the same, overpowered but boring instant-buttons that are often best used reactively rather than proactively?  Why isn't a universal mechanic like dodging the source of stunbreaks?

yeah it makes sense. i would limit the stunbreak to 1 every 10 sec and independent of endurance regen. having its own timer would be easiest. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

33 minutes ago, Curennos.9307 said:

May have typed that out badly - if I'm stunned, I should be stunned for X duration, and throwing another CC at me in the middle of the stun should not replace the stun with another CC and so extend the total duration I'm locked down. If I'm mistaken on how this works, it still def feels like it works this way.

If I stun you for 4s, then one second later hit you with a 1/4s daze the daze overrides the remaining stun duration for a total of 1.25s ccd in some fashion as the game currently functions.

[Brandon Uzumaki.1524]

CC is mostly a problem in WvW where no matter how many caveats there are (stability strip grace time, cc overlap, etc), you will get hit by so many at once you will be dead anyways unless you have a lot of mobility or very good reaction times.

But i agree the damage is way to low for skills that most of the time are very easy to dodge (Rev Hammer 5, almost all Guard and War Hammer skills, etc), they should not do 10k+ damage of course, but a good 1k to 2k damage on a full glass cannon build is a good middle ground for example.
I would actually swap the nerf, give CC some damage in the numbers i said, and then make every single ranged AoE skill that just stay static on the ground do the damage CC does now (only in competitive modes of course), would solve so many problems in WvW, and i say that as a Guardian main, 90% of our damage come from "static stuff on the ground", but if it gives a more melee oriented WvW, it's a sacrifice i'm willing to make, time to take out the Greatswords, Hammers, Swords, etc, in blob fights and not have to worry about the floor is lava :v

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

50 minutes ago, Brandon Uzumaki.1524 said:

CC is mostly a problem in WvW where no matter how many caveats there are (stability strip grace time, cc overlap, etc), you will get hit by so many at once you will be dead anyways unless you have a lot of mobility or very good reaction times.

But i agree the damage is way to low for skills that most of the time are very easy to dodge (Rev Hammer 5, almost all Guard and War Hammer skills, etc), they should not do 10k+ damage of course, but a good 1k to 2k damage on a full glass cannon build is a good middle ground for example.
I would actually swap the nerf, give CC some damage in the numbers i said, and then make every single ranged AoE skill that just stay static on the ground do the damage CC does now (only in competitive modes of course), would solve so many problems in WvW, and i say that as a Guardian main, 90% of our damage come from "static stuff on the ground", but if it gives a more melee oriented WvW, it's a sacrifice i'm willing to make, time to take out the Greatswords, Hammers, Swords, etc, in blob fights and not have to worry about the floor is lava :v

I think you're partially right in that the ranged floor vomit needs damage nerfs in WvW, but there is an alternative there. Give the melee specs better means to close the gap and do melee damage without dying in the process.

Should a sic'em sniper make someone crap themselves at 1500 range with all their buffs up without their target's own defenses available? Sure. Should that same sic'em sniper also crap their pants when an axe/axe berserker is in melee range of them? Sure, but is that the case currently? No.

[Arheundel.6451]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I think you're partially right in that the ranged floor vomit needs damage nerfs in WvW, but there is an alternative there. Give the melee specs better means to close the gap and do melee damage without dying in the process.

Should a sic'em sniper make someone crap themselves at 1500 range with all their buffs up without their target's own defenses available? Sure. Should that same sic'em sniper also crap their pants when an axe/axe berserker is in melee range of them? Sure, but is that the case currently? No.

An actual sic em build that can really kill a target....will have literally zero sustain, full zerker/assasin/diviner stats, and will fire entire build including elite on 60s cd to kill anything on two legs and capable of rationale thought...literally anything that can dodge and rush will kill that sic em build in 2 hits. A 1 shot sic em is not a celestial grenades scrapper which has similar dmg but 10x the sustain. Anything else different from what I have described.....won't have enough dmg to even kill a newb d/d ele with soldier gear....let alone an actual T1 roamer with cele stats or similar

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

An actual sic em build that can really kill a target....will have literally zero sustain, full zerker/assasin/diviner stats, and will fire entire build including elite on 60s cd to kill anything on two legs and capable of rationale thought...literally anything that can dodge and rush will kill that sic em build in 2 hits. A 1 shot sic em is not a celestial grenades scrapper which has similar dmg but 10x the sustain. Anything else different from what I have described.....won't have enough dmg to even kill a newb d/d ele with soldier gear....let alone an actual T1 roamer with cele stats or similar

We've had this arguement before Arheundel, that sic'em sniper isn't as defenseless as you claim and you know it.