June 28th Patch Notes : Ranger Changes

[BumboJumbo.1308]

1 minute ago, anduriell.6280 said:

This I don’t get:

* so they (anet devs) insist soulbeast it’s a bursty (assassiney type) elite. But they keep needing the burst and making the elite even more mediocre. 
* nerfing leader of the pack while not buffing it anywhere else is a very bad move. This is what they(anet devs) did to the druid
* I already warned you this was bound to happen. They want to push the kitten unplayed because it sees no gameplay.

The dev may be memeing there I would not read it literally.

But reading the patch notes for the last 9 years sure feel that way, the devs are “balancing” the class by reading the wiki.

maybe we need to change the wiki first so they start doing some actual work in the class. 

And again we need somebody who understands the class to do all the changes as required. Current employees do not fit that description when you read what they did for this patch. 

If it was the case that anet wanted to push for untamed to be played (assuming to make more sales on end of dragons.) Don't you think anet would've made more buffs to untamed? 

As for the bursty comment: power soulbeast already has a bunch of modifiers plus still has one wolf pack for the burst, which is on a 60 second cooldown now. But, if the nerf to one wolf pack is too much of a damage loss, even for a low intensity build, then they should probably revert it.

[BumboJumbo.1308]

2 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

The trait and OWP nerf will hit condi/hybrid Soulbeast hard and low intensity builds are doing far more then 20k.

Out of curiosity how much dps do you think one wolf pack contributes to the overall dps?

[Abyssisis.3971]

12 minutes ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

If it was the case that anet wanted to push for untamed to be played (assuming to make more sales on end of dragons.) Don't you think anet would've made more buffs to untamed? 

As for the bursty comment: power soulbeast already has a bunch of modifiers plus still has one wolf pack for the burst, which is on a 60 second cooldown now. But, if the nerf to one wolf pack is too much of a damage loss, even for a low intensity build, then they should probably revert it.

Apparently more changes are coming… it wouldn’t surprise me if they hold off until it’s rangers time for professional balance update so they can use these untamed changes as the patch and say they have done something rather than release it when it’s ready, that way they can do bare minimum.

One wolf pack used to be on a 60s cooldown, anet nerfed it to 80s claiming soulbeasts were doing too much damage, mind you our “too much damage” was still far short of other classes damage output. 🤦‍♂️

[aymnad.9023]

On 6/25/2022 at 11:44 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

You didn't need to repeat yourself.

You said the overall DPS is going to be higher and you are dead wrong on that.

Absolutely no idea from where or how you are drawing that conclusion, but I don't feel the need to discuss this with you seeing as how every other person in this thread is able to clearly see through simple mathematical analysis that this patch is going to drop Soulbeast DPS significantly.

I'm talking about actual benchamarks here, while running meta worthy team oriented builds, playing in T4 CMs & Raids & Strikes.

This patch is in no way a QoL or reasonable fix or anything like that. It's just an unnecessary unwarranted amputation of Soulbeast DPS output, which was mediocre compared to other classes to begin with.

People keep telling you to stop thinking so highly of yourself and yet you keep thinking everyone is trash and cannot do “simple mathematical analysis”. 

Have you really done the math? Here is a gs benchmark Standard Kitty Golem (dps.report). You end up with an increase of ~2k total damage (not dmg / s). Since this increase is absolutely nothing, it just means a stable dps. Whoops looks like I was wrong.. but so were you.

It will decrease the dps for longbow because it triggers owp more often but means gs is stable. 

Also important to note, I said that it will decrease in environment such as fractals or when you decide to share. (but hey you asked for benchmarks)

Edit : Also I said on MULTIPLE occasions on the forums that power slb was underperforming compared to other power specs, even more in REAL fights where there is movement, boss phasing and so on since you only do decent damage if you can land EVERYTHING during sicem.  I already have enough salt when I see what many professions do on condi even when they bring utility compared to a full power focused ranger.

Edit 2 : I obviously do not expect the forums to care about the results and everything else I said since they made it very clear over the years that they would much rather go for short sensationalist posts.

Edited June 26, 2022 by aymnad.9023

[Beddo.1907]

1 hour ago, aymnad.9023 said:

You used the trait leader of the pack for this right? So you went for a double nerf.  If you use Oppressive superiority then the difference is that the new OwP deals about 38% of the previous dmg. 

 

Yeah I used Stance trait since the main point was showing the difference of OWP in team content and how pointless LotP is after the nerf.
The 10% dps from OS easily beats the damage from new OWP and doesn't even need other players.
 

[aymnad.9023]

Just now, Beddo.1907 said:

Yeah I used Stance trait since the main point was showing the difference of OWP in team content and how pointless LotP is after the nerf.
The 10% dps from OS easily beats the damage from new OWP and doesn't even need other players.
 

ok ty! I was really hoping they would increase stance share or provide something to support on soulbeast but that's clearly not happening...

[Rysdude.3824]

30 minutes ago, Abyssisis.3971 said:

 

This is....

[Andy.5981]

It's at times like this that I feel really sorry for all the people in the music/graphic/programming/story departments at Anet who keep coming out with some amazing work only to have the balance team come up with stuf like this. It's like have a Ferrari with a steering wheel made of monkey poo.

[anduriell.6280]

3 minutes ago, Andy.5981 said:

It's at times like this that I feel really sorry for all the people in the music/graphic/programming/story departments at Anet who keep coming out with some amazing work only to have the balance team come up with stuf like this. It's like have a Ferrari with a steering wheel made of monkey poo.

It is not the balance team but the designer of the elites, there is so much you can do with number and unplayed can not be fixed with those. It needs a full rework, the concept is all wrong and brings nothing to the table.

the same as Druid needs a soft reboot because no numbers fungling will fix it back. And now with no unique buffs it lost its spot in the only game mode which you see some play.

but instead they keep nerfing the soulbeast because they cannot fix the disaster that unplayed is just with numbers. 

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

4 hours ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

P.S. Create more low intensity builds!!!! Stop basing things off of a benchmark that nooo one carrrees abbbooouuut pllleeeeaaassseee.

If nobody cared about benchmarks, then why is there a discord for help involving benchmarks and high end DPS/support that has well over 4k members? LI builds are great for those who can't put in the time to play well or for those who are physically or mentally impaired, but the higher intensity builds can give better results if you know them well.

[BumboJumbo.1308]

31 minutes ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

If nobody cared about benchmarks, then why is there a discord for help involving benchmarks and high end DPS/support that has well over 4k members? LI builds are great for those who can't put in the time to play well or for those who are physically or mentally impaired, but the higher intensity builds can give better results if you know them well.

99% of the player base can't achieve those numbers, it uses all utility skills to output the most damage the class can achieve, and it uses an unnecessary amount of both brain power and mechanical understanding to cycle through the damage skills.

For years the community has been creating benchmark builds and advertising them as builds for people to play, even though the above mentioned reasons make benchmark builds not ideal for players who want to chillax. 

I have no idea how or why people think that 20k+ damage by using a minimal amount of skills to achieve that number is bad. And on top of that the large selection of free utility is deemed bad or worse than a benchmark build. 

Also, what is this obsession with labeling low intensity builds as "for those that physically or mentally impaired"? Why is something made easier in terms of utility and damage looked upon as for people that are disadvantaged in the real world? You'd never say that harder is better and simplicity is worse in any scenario in the real world but now you would here?

If people want to live in a fantasy world claiming that benchmark builds are better than low intensity builds because complexity achieves more results than simplicity then you do you. I prefer not to live in such a fantasy in the practical world.

[Gorem.8104]

8 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Not at all.

You can go to snowcrows.com and compare & contrast benchmarks.

Soulbeast Power is currently benching around 34.5k, whilst other pure DPS is benching around 38k - 41k. Then you have certain other things that are pumping out like permanent Quickness & Alacrity, and they are still benching around 36k+ despite being a Support class.

This nerf to OWP is just unwarranted and unneeded. If anything, Soulbeast needed a buff.

I get the "idea" behind better normalizing its sustained damage output to be a bit higher, while lowering the top burst damage on OWP, but the way they did it will be an overall significant downgrade to its general DPS output.

I get the difference between sustained damage output and burst damage output, in relation to actual boss mechanics. Sometimes a Soulbeast who benches 34.5k could actually be dealing more damage vs. a certain boss than a 41k benchmark class who achieves that 41k through sustained damage output with no real burst, when the boss only allows for DPSing different certain phases that favors the rhythm of the Soulbeast burst. I get it. But if that is the case, let it be the case. That burst is all the Soulbeast has going for it, and it's ok to let the burst class be good vs. certain bosses that favor that rhythm and to let the sustained DPS class be good at other bosses, who favor sustained DPS.

What I DO NOT GET is this "idea" behind making all classes the same so everything is the same so people can play whatever they want. Look, the reason why a game like Smash Bros is fun, is because every character is different. Over the course of investing years of play into a game like this, it is actually fun to go on the journey of learning how new characters work. If every character was a mirror character that did the same thing, let's say you turn on Street Fighter and every character is Ryu and only Ryu, the game would be boring. Arenanet needs to dial back the power creep and eliminate this philosophy of making everything do the same thing. It's making the game boring and too easy. Even in competitive modes like pvp, this design philosophy is destorying our classic job roles and making the game bland, because everything does the same thing.

Let us not forget that Chess is a better game than Checkers, because the pieces in Chess all do different things. This makes the game way more fun on the journey to master it, as well as creates a much larger margin of difference between new players and master players. <- This is what people want. In Checkers, the game is dull because all the pieces do the same thing and due to this, there is little difference between a new player and a master. There is so little difference actually, that a master Checker player will only beat a new Checker player while having a few pieces left on his board. But in Chess, the master can absolutely destroy the amateur while losing few pieces at all. This is because the pieces in Chess all do different things, which provides way way more counterplay and room for psychological stimulation.

Sometimes less is more. Arenanet needs to remember this when it comes to gaming, and dial back on the power creep. The game was better when each class had individuality and a reason to take the journey to play each class so you could experience those individualities.

 

 

Thanks for the response, and essentially, this is just sad. 
From the moment I saw them say "Bring the player not the class" I knew that meant a downward spiral with what has always been a major draw to this game, class diversity and its combat. Removing unique buffs is such a step in the wrong direction, as I did always find One wolf pack fun to use. Now, its a dps downgrade to take as I saw earlier math in this thread that we will be doing over 500% less with it. 

 

Or they just want us all to re-roll to Firebrand or Mechanist. 

[Buzzbugs.1236]

Are they nerfing Healer druid's healing on allies down -30%? Why? So we can gain celestial energy faster? I prefer the 50% extra healing on allies. I never had a problem gaining celestial energy even in PvP.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Buzzbugs.1236

[Rysdude.3824]

5 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

 

Thanks for the response, and essentially, this is just sad. 
From the moment I saw them say "Bring the player not the class" I knew that meant a downward spiral with what has always been a major draw to this game, class diversity and its combat. Removing unique buffs is such a step in the wrong direction, as I did always find One wolf pack fun to use. Now, its a dps downgrade to take as I saw earlier math in this thread that we will be doing over 500% less with it. 

 

Or they just want us all to re-roll to Firebrand or Mechanist. 

I never understood why profession/spec unique skills were a bad thing? When all professions can do all things then it gets boring (imo)

[Gorem.8104]

18 minutes ago, Rysdude.3824 said:

I never understood why profession/spec unique skills were a bad thing? When all professions can do all things then it gets boring (imo)

Well, reading something interesting, it is interesting how the apparent lead balance dev balances based on class bias, 2k hours as FB and he designed Mechanist. Other classes need to be made boring compared apparently. 

[Endaris.1452]

Hot theory why they completely cut down on OWP:

With the GotL nerf on druid, the druid spec itself no longer contributes anything in terms of boons if you can source the Might from elsewhere and everything else except for healing is in nature magic and WH5.

Meaning for an offensive support build you would no longer have any reason to use a druid but could instead use a soulbeast bringing stance share aka a unique class specific buff.

Might gen could still work with quickdrawing WH5, frost spirit and if necessary jungle stalker. Or just stuff a rifle Holo into the group to compensate for the potentially lacking might gen.

With Moa Stance and 3 spirits you can run a viper/ritualist mix and krait runes that brings you to 33% BD and 46% condi duration (96% for bleeding) that you could run with shortbow on flanking bosses which might bench 20k+ while sharing OWP+Moa Stance and giving Alac, Fury, Might and Swiftness just based on flanking shortbow AA being busted.

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

4 hours ago, Endaris.1452 said:

 

Hot theory why they completely cut down on OWP:

 

Potentially.

But I think a more realistic explanation is: “One Wolf Pack is making power builds too strong and we don’t want them to be an option”. Seeing how their past slew of balance patches have continuously gutted power damage across the board.

[Box of Ants.5609]

They cut down OWP because a player in the Discord suggested it. That's literally the reason. You can read it for yourself in the logs.

Of course, that player also suggested that Soulbeast was in a fine place overall and explained that if OWP was nerfed, the specialization would need other buffs to compensate. Of course, that didn't happen - instead, ANet doubled down by nerfing LotP as well.

[Jimbru.6014]

What they're doing to the elite specs in this patch is a good example of why so many rangers (including my main) still play the same basic core power LB/GS bowpet build that we've been playing ever since the earliest days of the game. There's no point playing anything else because you spend all the time and gold to unlock a new spec and set up a build, then Anet comes along and changes it for no good reason.

[Sirius.4510]

One thing to consider - if you drop Leader of the Pack for Oppressive Superiority, you'll get a personal DPS boost that might at least partially offset this, and given OWP is getting such a heavy nerf anyway, it may not affect group DPS as much anymore. I am guessing this will make greatsword the preferred build for pSLB since it doesn't lean so heavily on OWP procs for damage.

Unfortunately there aren't any elites that can replace OWP for DPS builds. Strength of the Pack just gives boons you'll already have in group content (mostly might).

[Lazze.9870]

On 6/24/2022 at 8:25 PM, Beddo.1907 said:

We got PvP and WvW buffs that (surprise surprise) do nothing since CA has way too big downtime and the pet takes boons and healing, making ranger a DOWN SIDE to the squad.

Avatar still has a 10second cooldown in WvW, that's low enough to work around. The issue is the lack of utility other supports have.

Lingering Light change is good. Carrying over outgoing healing when not in the avatar is exactly what it needed, plus the much needed buff to Natural Mender.

Staff needs more love. A complete rework of #2 to something like guardian staff #2 would be great for wvw. 

Overall positive to the druid changes. Most of everything else is meh, especially outside of pve. The spotter change is terrible and straight up lazy.

[Beddo.1907]

13 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

Avatar still has a 10second cooldown in WvW, that's low enough to work around. The issue is the lack of utility other supports have.

Lingering Light change is good. Carrying over outgoing healing when not in the avatar is exactly what it needed, plus the much needed buff to Natural Mender.

Staff needs more love. A complete rework of #2 to something like guardian staff #2 would be great for wvw. 

Overall positive to the druid changes. Most of everything else is meh, especially outside of pve. The spotter change is terrible and straight up lazy.

It's 10s if you get CA juice. It shouldn't be a problem after the trait change but I'd rather see the numbers before being sure. Overall druid healing options are quite low outside of CA. (staff 3 is way too good of a escape tool to be used only for healing)

I 100% agree with staff needing love. If 2 wasn't a projectile it would actually help when zergs "walk over eachother" and if it was applied to multiple enemies it would be quite effective (bonus points if each wisp did damage to enemies that touch it). 4 would probably be fine with a defensive boon or two. 5 just needs to be larger and that would already enough.

I understand what they wanted to do with spotter, but pulsing fury IS a lazy way to add a new trait effect, especially with the storm spirit already doing exactly the same job (they could have at least added some secondary personal effect).

 

[BatelGeuce.3591]

Balancing in this game is just a huge joke. I've been maining ranger for about 6 years now and while I might not have agreed with some changes they did in the past, I mostly understood why they did it.

 

I don't know what THIS is, but it's not balancing. The most fitting word I can think of is lazy. Funny thing is that ranger is not the only one getting "wrecked" by it, but of course the beloved nercomancer and guardian only get tiny scratches (or even buffs lmao).

 

They took the very few unique skills or traits that ranger has and they made them mediocre. Spotter and spirits will basically be worthless. I won't call the druid changes a "buff" untill I see how the build works after the spirit changes.

 

God kitten, this used to be my comfort game but I guess I don't get to have anything nice in my life lmao.

[Zorby.8236]

On 6/25/2022 at 4:45 PM, Abyssisis.3971 said:

Apparently more changes are coming… it wouldn’t surprise me if they hold off until it’s rangers time for professional balance update so they can use these untamed changes as the patch and say they have done something rather than release it when it’s ready, that way they can do bare minimum.

One wolf pack used to be on a 60s cooldown, anet nerfed it to 80s claiming soulbeasts were doing too much damage, mind you our “too much damage” was still far short of other classes damage output. 🤦‍♂️

 

I've heard this before. The infamous 16 bullet points.

[Patsoor.6425]

On 6/25/2022 at 6:23 AM, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

I think overall the balance patch is fine. Druid becomes more different in that you either go might generation if might is lacking in party or more healing if might can be easily achieved by others. 

Soulbeast was and probably still will be super strong for its dps and massive support from its one-of-a-kind utility from moa stance, dolyak stance, vulture, and wolf stance. 

And then you have untamed which got a buff from the spirit rework. Now untamed can output alacrity with no boon duration.

Though untamed probably still won't see much use depending if the spirits act the same exact way as it does now. Easily killable, annoying reposition, meh boon uptime(when activated, not passive), annoying creation time. 

Wdym slb was & probably stil will be superstrong? it is not bad, & thats it.
We were not superstrong, (definitly not after last nerf we got) and now they even made it worse.
Only in some encounters (where there are short burst phases like Adina, KC or Xera) powerSLB can be top or near top (always other classes that can just get the edge over a powerSLB if they are good.
In almost any other case we are not even near top dps.
We can't even bring alacspirits bc of the traitline is useless in power.

Untamed dps wise is something I don't even want to talk about this garbage spec.
The only use so far for untamed is  heal,res,alac, with cc cooldown trait you can use search& resque & nature spirit really fast if needed.