Can devs make something new and stop changing the old. [Merged]

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

People are very much over-reacting to this tweak, and some of the reasons given are quite interesting to display in a public manner.

Overreacting how? 

Seems like its the people on the other side that keep talking about body parts and projecting intent...

The question has been why did Anet remove content that didnt need to be removed because Watchknight MK I could have remained as it always has been - ie the Watchknight MK I, not MK II or if they want to make a MK III or a MK IV etc.

It isnt more complicated than that. I would argue the same in defense of any art that is changed or deleted for no reason with one exception and thats buttcapes. They can burn in hell.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

3 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Absolutely not the same thing.

And in that context the term "modern standard" is grossly overused and wrongly as well.
I can guarantee you that the majority of people overall would prefer the more sexualised character designs in just about every medium.

And those of us who don't particularly care for stuff like that (myself included) are in fact a very small minority.

quiet the contradictions here. "modern standards" IS the go to excuse to change things from something that was visually titillating or appealing to something less or rather outright removing it. and in that context it IS the same as censoring.

[Lahmia.2193]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Overreacting how? 

Seems like its the people on the other side that keep talking about body parts and projecting intent...

The question has been why did Anet remove content that didnt need to be removed because Watchknight MK I could have remained as it always has been - ie the Watchknight MK I, not MK II or if they want to make a MK III or a MK IV etc.

It isnt more complicated than that. I would argue the same in defense of any art that is changed or deleted for no reason with one exception and thats buttcapes. They can burn in hell.

 

The best thing they could have done was update the in story models to the mk III, introduce a new mk III tonic and kept the old tonic as it is.

[flarezi.9381]

Overly sexualized robot curves and boobs were funny and fun because its a ROBOT, new model is boring and plain like all robots usually are. But these sexy robots were female creation, Scarlet's ultimate weapon. Making then sexy as to confuse enemies for no reason. Thats funny. Also - even big boobs and shapes of body are normal and these features of human body has been always perfectly normal and interesting since dawn of human history. There is no logical explanation to censor robot boobs. I as a woman find this boob-hate disgusting. 😏😇

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Overreacting how? 

Seems like its the people on the other side that keep talking about body parts and projecting intent...

The question has been why did Anet remove content that didnt need to be removed because Watchknight MK I could have remained as it always has been - ie the Watchknight MK I, not MK II or if they want to make a MK III or a MK IV etc.

It isnt more complicated than that. I would argue the same in defense of any art that is changed or deleted for no reason with one exception and thats buttcapes. They can burn in hell.

If you think the new Mark 1 watchknight is completely indistinguishable from the mark 2, you should check your eyes. They are distinct from one another lol.

As everybody apparently ignored, somebody I've talked to about this mentioned that perhaps they did it because of the upcoming steam release, because the watchknight mark 1 did appear to have nipples(or an area looking like such) on the breasts, and thus tweaked it because that'd trigger something.

2 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

You've taken missing the point to an art form.

I'm talking overall. I've seen everything from "SCREECH POLITICS" to literally "This shames women with large breasts." Here, reddit, etc. It's one thing for people to bring up the question why. It's another for other people to go about acting as if there is some deep reason or that anet is going to go rampage through art assets.

OMG, they changed an art asset that has barely been used during an update which also updated and changed other art assets (the starter world bosses). I honestly wonder if more time was spent by people complaining about this change then that was used by devs to make the change.

1 minute ago, Lahmia.2193 said:

 

The best thing they could have done was update the in story models to the mk III, introduce a new mk III tonic and kept the old tonic as it is.

And that wouldn't make any sense. The mark 2 models get introduced later on, and the enemy watchknight model is likely tied to the tonic. So they tweaked the enemy model to the same one as the marionette, so the tonic one also gets changed. Making a mark 3 for the season 1 re-release would be weird. Yes, they could've kept the original model as a prototype variant, but the new one fits the intended role and theme of what it was built for in universe.

I really wonder why people are so attached to the old model. It wasn't bad, but it's not this important lol.

2 minutes ago, flarezi.9381 said:

Overly sexualized robot curves and boobs were funny and fun because its a ROBOT, new model is boring and plain like all robots usually are. But these sexy robots were female creation, Scarlet's ultimate weapon. Making then sexy as to confuse enemies for no reason. Thats funny. Also - even big boobs and shapes of body are normal and these features of human body has been always perfectly normal and interesting since dawn of human history. There is no logical explanation to censor robot boobs. I as a woman find this boob-hate disgusting. 😏😇

I mean, "sexy to confuse enemies" flies straight in the opposite direction of Scarlet transforming them into horrific twisted nightmares to murder and maim.

 

 

[kharmin.7683]

13 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Protip to Anet: People only play FFXIV for the lewd outfits and mods. If you make this game into FFXIV, while also removing al the lewd outfits, you're no longer going to attract the FFXIV crowd you so desperately want.

See also: Blade and Soul

[Syvaris Laskaris.5247]

Are there really people trying to use Steam release as an excuse for this? Have you people spent 5 minutes on Steam? 

Some of the most "iconic" female designs in the last 5 years in video games are a giant vampire woman with big milkers and a blindfolded robot with her thighs and butt constantly revealed and you think Steam is worried about robo-breasts.

[Gibson.4036]

As much as I personally prefer the updated model, I do understand the reaction against current devs being dismissive of prior design.

I felt it acutely with the reveal that a dev had chosen to make an engineer weapon strong enough to make kits irrelevant because he doesn’t like using kits. This is kind of arrogance toward earlier game designers and players who have enjoyed their work was startling.

No, the game shouldn’t stay stuck in old design, but with something as significant as phasing out kits for engineer there should be thoughtful intent and respect for what’s gone before. Knee jerk personal reference shouldn’t come into it.

[Kalavier.1097]

20 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

As much as I personally prefer the updated model, I do understand the reaction against current devs being dismissive of prior design.

And where is it said they are being dismissive of the old design? It's like people claiming the change was done for "political reasons".

They changed the marionette. They applied that new model to the watchknights. This model change was built back when they re-released the marionette.

To me, the question is much more "Why is a person mad about this" then not. Some people seem to be mad about changing older models in general. Some people seem mad because of the physical changes.

According to That_shaman,

The original model was remade and reduced the file size of the model.

[Tazer.2157]

5 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Historically... we didn't see women in battle.  Also something to note is there are historic instances of men fighting in wars without wearing any pants, or even wearing anything at all.  You've got to admire the stones on the guys who charged into battle with a sword, shield, and quite literally nothing else.  The pants-less versions worked in sword fights because it is very easy to retract the legs and present the point to an opponent.  So long as they were trained not to keep a leg forward, they were fairly safe to wear only upper-body armor.

The example that I like to go to is Bull Fighters.  Bull fighters, even the few women who do it, fight an animal that weighs half a ton wearing ceremonial garments.  If history were a little different, we could have bull fighters wearing little to nothing at all.  Largely because full plate mail does nothing against an animal that weighs 1000 pounds.  Compare this to the size of the creatures we fight in GW2, and you'll realize that old-timey knight armor would offer no protection against something like a Karka or a Golem.  

The men's armor at least looks like something they would wear to battle but the female version of the winged armor set, conjurer armor, tribal armor, diviner armor and luminescent armor looks like something you would see an exotic dancer wear.  

[Kozumi.5816]

9 hours ago, Tazer.2157 said:

They should also make the female armors more realistic IMO. No woman would go into combat with something like a winged armor. All armors with exposed thighs or bellies should be redone. The ornate guild armor and the Devout armor are on point and something we would realistically see women wear in battle. 

also remove dragons and magic wtf that doesn't exist irl!!!!

[Tazer.2157]

Just now, Kozumi.5816 said:

also remove dragons and magic wtf that doesn't exist irl!!!!

Dragons and magic do not sexualize women. The robot in this case was clearly made with overblown proportions of the female body. You do not see male robots in the game that were made in a similar way. Anyways, it doesn't matter what you or I think. This is a direction the entire video game industry in the West has taken which I think its a change for the better.  

[Gibson.4036]

14 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

And where is it said they are being dismissive of the old design? It's like people claiming the change was done for "political reasons".

They changed the marionette. They applied that new model to the watchknights. This model change was built back when they re-released the marionette.

To me, the question is much more "Why is a person mad about this" then not. Some people seem to be mad about changing older models in general. Some people seem mad because of the physical changes.

According to That_shaman,

The original model was remade and reduced the file size of the model.

I’m saying I understand people feeling that way. I personally find the watchknight change to be an improvement. The leaked chat does indicate that there is at least some lack of respect for previous designs.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

[Voyant.1327]

These are times we live in. For better or worse we're in a period where companies are expected to push this form of censorship from outside pressures. Primarily in fear of backlash by consumers for not being progressive enough. Everyday there is an article or company with negativity bc of this.

The period we're in is just a modern version of puritanical behavior. Next decade might end up like the 60s for all we know. Its futile to fight the prevailing current at this stage. You'll only be met with backlash as its not considered socially acceptable.

So yeah robots being too attractive has collectively been decided as an important issue to this society. I'm sure GW2 got plenty of complaints about it or just that it bothered enough. You can disagree but your voice will be in the minority at this point in time.

Personally I think all of it is silly all around no matter where you stand on this,

All n all its harmless pixels on a screen either way. 

But I do hate when voice actors change so that is one I'll agree on, but again same concept of social pressure of an ideology applies here.

In a perfect world both options would be available with a (check here for legacy version) option. Ideally one that only affects the individual users visuals. So those who liked curved robots or those who like more linear robots have both. (And a parental option to force pg versions would be ideal imo, always thought games should have a kid friendly mode)

But for some reason this topic is divisive vs. People just accepting others preferences. 

[Kozumi.5816]

4 minutes ago, Tazer.2157 said:

Dragons and magic do not sexualize women. The robot in this case was clearly made with overblown proportions of the female body. You do not see male robots in the game that were made in a similar way. Anyways, it doesn't matter what you or I think. This is a direction the entire video game industry in the West has taken which I think its a change for the better.  

FFXIV is the most popular MMO in the world and has the most sexualized women with the most revealing outfits.

"For the better", if you hate money, sure! These companies absolutely do not hate money.

Enjoy bleeding money while turning women into fruit.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[Syvaris Laskaris.5247]

11 minutes ago, Tazer.2157 said:

The men's armor at least looks like something they would wear to battle but the female version of the winged armor set, conjurer armor, tribal armor, diviner armor and luminescent armor looks like something you would see an exotic dancer wear.  

And half the male light armor looks like clown suits or party attire, where exactly is the problem? Light armor has to have sets that match Mesmer which has a masquerade theme, an exotic dancer is probably the closest equivalent for Elona'a inspirations.

[Tazer.2157]

4 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

FFXIV is the most popular MMO.in the world and has the most sexualized women with the most revealing outfits.

"For the better", if you hate money, sure! These companies absolutely do not hate money.

FF is popular for a lot of reasons and not just skimpy outfits. This change is unavoidable.  I mean no one with the right mind who works at Anet  is going to oppose such a change.  And you can be sure there won't be opposition when a proposal comes in to change the revealing female outfits. 

I can also see FFXIV and every other games making similar changes in the future. 

That said,  I can think of so many other changes that would make the game better  and I find it silly that this change was something of a priority.  

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

6 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

It's a fair point, especially if it's not the same specific Marionette from season 1.

Thus it begs the question, Why didn't they update the model and keep the original design?
Hence this thread  pretty much.

Do the new design choices also affect other Twisted enemies in other content like Fractals?
I've not checked myself but it would be strange if they didn't.

So far, from what I've been able to find, four things have not been affected:

• All three related Miniatures
• The Marionette corpse in Lornar's Pass
• The Marionette in The Departing
• Assault Knights in Nightmare Fractal CM

Humorously, MAMA was altered despite being a different model (retextured like Assault Knights). All other Watchknights, even in The Departing, was altered.

So yeah, it was actually consistent before they updated the models with this release. It was this release that made it inconsistent, ironies of ironies.

9 hours ago, Tazer.2157 said:

They should also make the female armors more realistic IMO. No woman would go into combat with something like a winged armor. All armors with exposed thighs or bellies should be redone. The ornate guild armor and the Devout armor are on point and something we would realistically see women wear in battle. 

You wanna know true historical realistic male armor? Here you go:

Spoiler

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-272b1a860dc443d408c719899a0a5f34-pjlqhttps://preview.redd.it/yxiccbg603581.jpg?auto=webp&s=cccc67b336a1b77ed3982d0405fcf8d86bc2ddfb

When we've had armor like this in reality, I 1000% believe there'd be boob armor or exposed thighs and bellies in reality if women were on the battlefield regularly.

 

The only reason why boob armor isn't historical is because women didn't fight, not because it would be impractical as armor (I mean, it would be, but that wouldn't stop people).

Edited July 21, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

39 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

And where is it said they are being dismissive of the old design? It's like people claiming the change was done for "political reasons".

They changed the marionette. They applied that new model to the watchknights. This model change was built back when they re-released the marionette.

To me, the question is much more "Why is a person mad about this" then not. Some people seem to be mad about changing older models in general. Some people seem mad because of the physical changes.

According to That_shaman,

The original model was remade and reduced the file size of the model.

Fun fact, though, is that the original model is still in the game.

Remaking it didn't reduce the file size of the model, it added an extra model. Just go into The Departing (before ArenaNet "fixes"that too).

24 minutes ago, Tazer.2157 said:

Dragons and magic do not sexualize women. The robot in this case was clearly made with overblown proportions of the female body. You do not see male robots in the game that were made in a similar way. Anyways, it doesn't matter what you or I think. This is a direction the entire video game industry in the West has taken which I think its a change for the better.  

You joking? Those jade mechs are buffed as heck male robots. 😄

Edited July 21, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kozumi.5816]

13 minutes ago, Tazer.2157 said:

I can also see FFXIV and every other games making similar changes in the future. 

sure, if they want to lose their entire player base overnight

 

[Zebulous.2934]

5 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

They changed a singular model. It's not like they've gone and erased the star-born outfit from the game, or the light armor which the top is basically a bra. Or removed Profane armor. So there explicitly isn't censoring being done because "OMG too adult looking."

People are very much over-reacting to this tweak, and some of the reasons given are quite interesting to display in a public manner.

You are not correct. The Elegant Canthan outfit was changed.  Underwear was painted onto the female version about two weeks after it was released. I assume the underwear was added because many of us were dyeing the leggings to match our skin-tone.  Very much "OMG too adult looking."  

Edit: kinda silly though, if you considered the leggings to be nudity it would have been Barbie-doll anatomy.  Though it still has a nice butt under the skirt.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Zebulous.2934

[Farohna.6247]

I liked the old design, I like the new one.  Human attributes on a robot serve no function other than to appeal to the eye.  I'm curious how many would freak out if they had a well endowed male robot and they did a reduction.  Would you feel emasculated that they were chopping off body parts?  It's not the first time of a reduction in gaming...Lara Croft anyone?  Should they have left the robots design alone, probably.  A strange use of resources, yes.  Will the new ones reduce the numbers of fantasies for those who dream of robots....

[Zebulous.2934]

49 minutes ago, Tazer.2157 said:

Dragons and magic do not sexualize women. The robot in this case was clearly made with overblown proportions of the female body. You do not see male robots in the game that were made in a similar way. Anyways, it doesn't matter what you or I think. This is a direction the entire video game industry in the West has taken which I think its a change for the better.  

Ah you mean like the direction taken by Western comic books?
Yet what do we see? Manga sales in the United States completely eclipse comic book sales in the United States. 
Japan and Korea do not care about western ideals, and apparently neither do the majority of U.S. consumers.
Follow the money, the money doesn't lie. 
Edit:
People say all sorts of things, but their purchase history is where you find the truth.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Zebulous.2934

[Farohna.6247]

3 minutes ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

Ah you mean like the direction taken by Western comic books?
Yet what do we see? Manga sales in the United States completely eclipse comic book sales in the United States. 
Japan and Korea do not care about western ideals, and apparently neither do the majority of U.S. consumers.
Follow the money, the money doesn't lie. 
Edit:
People say all sorts of things, but their purchase history is where you find the truth.

The coveted 18 to 25 year old male is the target audience for most of these depending on genre.  Super hero, many manga and anime types, and video games...so yes they are absolutely designed to fulfill the wants of that age bracket.  Nothing wrong with that.  Some have toned it down to appeal to a larger market, including a younger audience or more mature one.  

[Zebulous.2934]

2 minutes ago, Farohna.6247 said:

The coveted 18 to 25 year old male is the target audience for most of these depending on genre.  Super hero, many manga and anime types, and video games...so yes they are absolutely designed to fulfill the wants of that age bracket.  Nothing wrong with that.  Some have toned it down to appeal to a larger market, including a younger audience or more mature one.  

Comic book sales for Marvel and D.C. are at all time lows, I really think they are failing to appeal to their target audience.  I really thought western comics shared the same 18 to 25 year old target audience.  Twenty years ago, when I would see manga it was all shojo, and grouped in with visual novels that catered to teen girls, My little sisters certainly bought enough of the stuff at the time.