CURB THE BOON UPTIME IN YOUR GAME!!

[Arheundel.6451]

The balance in this game is a joke! You introduce a dodge mechanic and nobody cares, they just facetank the world on their permaboon builds!  Everything is boring AF to play against, not even on full skinny glass cannon build you can down these clown builds.. We started with a single stack of might on crit every 5s....and now people go around with 25 might, perma quickness, superspeed, perma protection, perma regeneration.....everything is an absolute joke.....100% braindead gameplay. Let's not even start on all this block, block, invulnerability for days...rotating distortion.....how did I end up here from GW1? The gameplay in GW2 is more imbalanced than a P2W Korean MMO nobody ever heard about!

Edited March 12, 2023 by Arheundel.6451

[ventress.4879]

32 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

The balance in this game is a joke! You introduce a dodge mechanic and nobody cares, they just facetank the world on their permaboon builds!  Everything is boring AF to play against, not even on full skinny glass cannon build you can down these clown builds.. We started with a single stack of might on crit every 5s....and now people go around with 25 might, perma quickness, superspeed, perma protection, perma regeneration.....everything is an absolute joke.....100% braindead gameplay. Let's not even start on all this block, block, invulnerability for days...rotating distortion.....how did I end up here from GW1? The gameplay in GW2 is more imbalanced than a P2W Korean MMO nobody ever heard about!

Generally speaking you are right but that is where some creativety can get involved. 

One of my most favourite things to do in WvW is to pull people off walls or out of a Zerg with Temporal Curtain and then Gravity Well them twice if you can time Continuum Split right.

For something like sPvP I think straight up leaving an unfair fight can be most broken thing to do. Most classes have a way to teleport or move quickly so you have plenty of options. This is one of the reason necro can be so strong. 

[Dadnir.5038]

Ironically I think it's the pleas for "complexity" and the will to have short windows of "burst" that led us to this.

As a result the devs have favored bringing in quantity over quality. Instead of having singular skills that provide a long duration boon, we got a score of skills providing many short duration boons that the player chain to get long duration. And the drawback is that such approach lead to an increasingly high need for boon hate effects which are rare if not inexistent on most professions.

At this point the solution isn't to curb the boon uptime but to either reduce the number of boon sources or provide every single profession with ways to remove boons on their foes.

 

[Edu.6984]

(Comment bellow considering a wvw perspective only)

 

Boons, condis and cleanses should be more scarce. 

 

There are way too many condi sources, condi on evade, condi on weapon swap, some skills that can apply 4+ condi with 1 hit... To balance the condi  creep anet also created way too many condi removal, a sigil that removes 3 condis on swap, a rune that doubles your condi removal, etc... Both need to be toned down together. 

 

 

 

 

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

4 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

The balance in this game is a joke! You introduce a dodge mechanic and nobody cares, they just facetank the world on their permaboon builds!  Everything is boring AF to play against, not even on full skinny glass cannon build you can down these clown builds.. We started with a single stack of might on crit every 5s....and now people go around with 25 might, perma quickness, superspeed, perma protection, perma regeneration.....everything is an absolute joke.....100% braindead gameplay. Let's not even start on all this block, block, invulnerability for days...rotating distortion.....how did I end up here from GW1? The gameplay in GW2 is more imbalanced than a P2W Korean MMO nobody ever heard about!

I'm not sure what mode you mean. They nerfed boon generation several times. Yes there are Herald who can generate Might a long time and don't care so much about duration.

 

In general they wanted to generate with invulnerability and unblockable skills a more dynamic game play.

Yes the gameplay is still a mess because with each expansion a complete new vision for the game was but into the elite specs.

 

The current game has from the game mechanic little to do with GW1

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

There needs to be more mass boon removal, yet they keep nerfing if...

[Dorian.8542]

5 hours ago, Edu.6984 said:

(Comment bellow considering a wvw perspective only)

 

Boons, condis and cleanses should be more scarce. 

 

There are way too many condi sources, condi on evade, condi on weapon swap, some skills that can apply 4+ condi with 1 hit... To balance the condi  creep anet also created way too many condi removal, a sigil that removes 3 condis on swap, a rune that doubles your condi removal, etc... Both need to be toned down together. 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure if you remember the HoT days of "zerker is the only option". granted boon meta is a thing, but we don't want to go back to PDPS only.

[Beddo.1907]

I have no idea which mode you are talking about.

[Edu.6984]

6 hours ago, Dorian.8542 said:

I'm not sure if you remember the HoT days of "zerker is the only option". granted boon meta is a thing, but we don't want to go back to PDPS only.

 

For zergs power was the way to go, because condi sources did not scale as well as condi cleanses for groups, but for roaming condi was still a super strong. Even with those problems, the balance was way better than now. 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

8 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

I have no idea which mode you are talking about.

It's PVP/WvW.  He mentions downing one build with another.  

[Dawdler.8521]

Ever since HoT Anet has doubled, quadrupled and octupled down on boon generation and passive AoE skills. Before we had to coordinate buffing and blasting combo fields now every class just vomits out perma boons on the run.

I fail to see why Anet would ever change their mind.

[TwiceDead.1963]

I agree but it won't happen. Gaem too Haerrd2blast.

[zicaB.1794]

That's not a problem for my perma stealth/evade/teleport/daze/blindness thief 

[Alcatraznc.3869]

Having played a certain P2W Korean MMO, at least in GW2 when you get CC you have the ability to break out of it but you also have a boon to avoid getting CC unlike the said MMO where PvP is all about who can CC the other first and then you auto win because stunbreak or stability doesnt exist.

 

That being said, I do agree that this game needs more boon removal, both in PvE and WvW (idk PvP )

[Zaret.1450]

On 3/12/2023 at 10:15 AM, Arheundel.6451 said:

The balance in this game is a joke! You introduce a dodge mechanic and nobody cares, they just facetank the world on their permaboon builds!  Everything is boring AF to play against, not even on full skinny glass cannon build you can down these clown builds.. We started with a single stack of might on crit every 5s....and now people go around with 25 might, perma quickness, superspeed, perma protection, perma regeneration.....everything is an absolute joke.....100% braindead gameplay. Let's not even start on all this block, block, invulnerability for days...rotating distortion.....how did I end up here from GW1? The gameplay in GW2 is more imbalanced than a P2W Korean MMO nobody ever heard about!

If it werent for celestial stats id probably disagree more, but it is true that some builds have an easy time getting a ton of boons with that.

Even then, people usually need to be carefull of their own boons, whether you have stab or not is very important as almost anyone will have good cc skills to make your life impossible, some need to keep using certain mecanics, like ele with combo fields, to maintain boons and be able to fight.

Willbender, thief, those kind of fast oneshot builds are another entirely different case, i mean, willbender has a huge amount of blocks being a guard and also a ton of movement, you need to corrupt him, cc and use condis till he has nothing else to survive, wich is.... difficult, but if he plays bad (cof cof me, cof cof, im learning) then he dies pretty easily, while thief... i cant win against it unless i load him with condis like a truck and pray, but i see others being able to kill them, maybe with too much dificulty.

As for boon balls in zergs... well they have 2 guys full focused on boon/cleanse/healing, they need to stack correcly and then theyre unstoppable, unless another zergs puts 4 corruptions and bursts in a second, i mean i think boons, while some classes are plenty braindead(now less as fb was nerfed several times for example), are also rewarding in, if you play them well youre unstoppable or need another boon monsyer to face them, but if you play right against them, boon rip and corrupts, then its something doable

[Xenesis.6389]

Boons are a problem? you don't say....

No one listened about it for years, and they won't for a few more, if ever.

Oh and Anet, when's that "boon application/removal review" you twice stated six months ago is gonna happen?

Never I would presume....

🍿

[Dreams.3128]

I'm still trying to fathom WHY they keep nerfing boon removal. I legitmately do not understand Anet's reasoning for deleting the problem for all of this mass boon generation outside of the fact scourge provided too much of it at the time. Which, if that was the case, they could've done a better job with making sure that boon generation and boon removal was equaled out between each other, instead of allowing boon generation to run rampant.

[Sandzibar.5134]

7 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Oh and Anet, when's that "boon application/removal review" you twice stated six months ago is gonna happen?

 

I too would like to know what is happening with this.

 

 

 

 

[the krytan assassin.9235]

27 minutes ago, Dreams.3128 said:

I'm still trying to fathom WHY they keep nerfing boon removal. I legitmately do not understand Anet's reasoning for deleting the problem for all of this mass boon generation outside of the fact scourge provided too much of it at the time. Which, if that was the case, they could've done a better job with making sure that boon generation and boon removal was equaled out between each other, instead of allowing boon generation to run rampant.

Boon rip has been incredibly powerful for a long time (just like boon support). I agree that boon support needs a nerf, but boon rip should be nerfed alongside it. 

There are barely any viable builds that provide neither of them. Nerfing boonsupport while keeping the current state of boonrip will just result in boonrip classes becoming more dominant & WvW meta becomes a complete pirate ship all over again. 

 

Boon uptime has been steadily nerfed in PvP and WvW over the last couple of months and therefore boonrip definitely deserved to get nerfed aswell.

[Dreams.3128]

43 minutes ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Boon rip has been incredibly powerful for a long time (just like boon support). I agree that boon support needs a nerf, but boon rip should be nerfed alongside it. 

There are barely any viable builds that provide neither of them. Nerfing boonsupport while keeping the current state of boonrip will just result in boonrip classes becoming more dominant & WvW meta becomes a complete pirate ship all over again. 

 

Boon uptime has been steadily nerfed in PvP and WvW over the last couple of months and therefore boonrip definitely deserved to get nerfed aswell.

Which is understandable if boon uptime is getting nerfed, makes sense that you would want to balance the boon generation and boon rip, so one doesn't overpower the other. However, my thing is now, and maybe I am simply not seeing it, it seems like there is actual more boon generation now than there is boon rip once classes like Necro/Mes/Warrior started  getting their specs/weapons/skills nerfed to where they don't generate as much boonrip as they once did.

[Burnfall.9573]

On 3/12/2023 at 7:29 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Ironically I think it's the pleas for "complexity" and the will to have short windows of "burst" that led us to this.

As a result the devs have favored bringing in quantity over quality. Instead of having singular skills that provide a long duration boon, we got a score of skills providing many short duration boons that the player chain to get long duration. And the drawback is that such approach lead to an increasingly high need for boon hate effects which are rare if not inexistent on most professions.

At this point the solution isn't to curb the boon uptime but to either reduce the number of boon sources or provide every single profession with ways to remove boons on their foes.

 

well said

[Bazsi.2734]

I kind of agree, when everyone has every boon all the time, they become meaningless. We could roll the effects of every boon into baseline and remove the boon system... and nothing would change in Raid/WvW/open world content.
Most DPS builds can maintain 2-3 boons on an entire subgroup without even trying. This is dumb.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

On 3/15/2023 at 7:57 AM, Dreams.3128 said:

Which is understandable if boon uptime is getting nerfed, makes sense that you would want to balance the boon generation and boon rip, so one doesn't overpower the other. However, my thing is now, and maybe I am simply not seeing it, it seems like there is actual more boon generation now than there is boon rip once classes like Necro/Mes/Warrior started  getting their specs/weapons/skills nerfed to where they don't generate as much boonrip as they once did.

 

Boon removal, is dependent on the existence of boons. Can't rip any boons, if there are no boons to remove...so when boons get nerfed, boon removal is by proxy also nerfed. And so by further nerfing boon removal, you introduce an non-linear asymmetry to the dynamic they have together.

 

February 2020

In 2020, the effectiveness of nearly all skills, was sliced down significantly...anywhere from 50% or more. So boons that lasted 10 seconds, getting tuned down to last 1-3 seconds. If they were producing 5-6 stacks, they were tuned down to produce 1-2 stacks. Boon Removals in this patch were also cut down...But mostly in the form of deteriorating the strongest boon removal classes that exist : Necromancer. Spiteful Spirit, Corrupt Boon, Unholy Feast...and the general gutting of Scourge, lead to boons having their strongest competitor rendered ineffective. This gutting kind of continued for 2 years afterward, with the removal of 10 man target cap, and the persistent nerfing to boon removal abilities further pushed these classes out of favor to use.

 

Now...Scourge was indeed an annoying class to fight against back then. Having all the conditions on you in the game was not very fun when all the scourge had to do was sit on node and spam 4 buttons. But even though this build and class was that annoying to fight, they were integral to the balance AGAINST boons in the game, and they kept those classes in check to some degree. The effects of those changes...well their hard to parametrize meaningfully. The game became more tolerable without scourge bullying everyone, but at the same time, folks wouldn't pick up on the importance of their role in the game until much later when other boon removal options kept getting nerfed too, other class alternatives like Warrior Bubble for instance, seeing heavy nerfs...

 

New Balance Philosophy 2022

The recent balance philosophy has it's own set of issues... related to homogenizing and making more available the access to boons in an effort to "diversify" the PVE meta...we see things like Elementalist getting Alacrity...others gaining new ability to perma 12 Might and Fury now... There's a very long list of changes with the intent on trying to make these classes the same in terms of boon output, in an effort to make them the same...that balance philosophy has a name or slogan that I can't remember but it was something like "play what you want" referring to the property that all classes should have a spec capable of doing one of the roles in raids, that of being a Healing boon support, DPS Boon Support, DPS...so if class X had a 30k DPS spec, and a boon support spec that can put out perma fury, might, quickness, alacrity, then classes ABCD should also have a 30kDPS build, and a spec that can output perma fury, might, quickness, and alacrity too. That way if you were playing a Druid Ranger or something...and Raid Party said they were looking for a DPS...then you can simply change specs, and boom you were a viable DPS choice for that raid party...hence the whole idea of that philosophy : "play any class you want you will get accepted into groups."

 

Anyway...As a result, boon output shot up and was a double edge sword...as it made some traits and specs that were once borderline unusable and worthless, useable. The bad news: boon removal was an afterthought to those changes, and so you have tons of boons, but barely any boon removal in the game, since none of it was really "put back" from 2020.

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

17 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Boon removal, is dependent on the existence of boons. Can't rip any boons, if there are no boons to remove...so when boons get nerfed, boon removal is by proxy also nerfed. And so by further nerfing boon removal, you introduce an non-linear asymmetry to the dynamic they have together.

 

February 2020

In 2020, the effectiveness of nearly all skills, was sliced down significantly...anywhere from 50% or more. So boons that lasted 10 seconds, getting tuned down to last 1-3 seconds. If they were producing 5-6 stacks, they were tuned down to produce 1-2 stacks. Boon Removals in this patch were also cut down...But mostly in the form of deteriorating the strongest boon removal classes that exist : Necromancer. Spiteful Spirit, Corrupt Boon, Unholy Feast...and the general gutting of Scourge, lead to boons having their strongest competitor rendered ineffective. This gutting kind of continued for 2 years afterward, with the removal of 10 man target cap, and the persistent nerfing to boon removal abilities further pushed these classes out of favor to use.

 

Now...Scourge was indeed an annoying class to fight against back then. Having all the conditions on you in the game was not very fun when all the scourge had to do was sit on node and spam 4 buttons. But even though this build and class was that annoying to fight, they were integral to the balance AGAINST boons in the game, and they kept those classes in check to some degree. The effects of those changes...well their hard to parametrize meaningfully. The game became more tolerable without scourge bullying everyone, but at the same time, folks wouldn't pick up on the importance of their role in the game until much later when other boon removal options kept getting nerfed too, other class alternatives like Warrior Bubble for instance, seeing heavy nerfs...

 

New Balance Philosophy 2022

The recent balance philosophy has it's own set of issues... related to homogenizing and making more available the access to boons in an effort to "diversify" the PVE meta...we see things like Elementalist getting Alacrity...others gaining new ability to perma 12 Might and Fury now... There's a very long list of changes with the intent on trying to make these classes the same in terms of boon output, in an effort to make them the same...that balance philosophy has a name or slogan that I can't remember but it was something like "play what you want" referring to the property that all classes should have a spec capable of doing one of the roles in raids, that of being a Healing boon support, DPS Boon Support, DPS...so if class X had a 30k DPS spec, and a boon support spec that can put out perma fury, might, quickness, alacrity, then classes ABCD should also have a 30kDPS build, and a spec that can output perma fury, might, quickness, and alacrity too. That way if you were playing a Druid Ranger or something...and Raid Party said they were looking for a DPS...then you can simply change specs, and boom you were a viable DPS choice for that raid party...hence the whole idea of that philosophy : "play any class you want you will get accepted into groups."

 

Anyway...As a result, boon output shot up and was a double edge sword...as it made some traits and specs that were once borderline unusable and worthless, useable. The bad news: boon removal was an afterthought to those changes, and so you have tons of boons, but barely any boon removal in the game, since none of it was really "put back" from 2020.

 

The nerfing of boon removal even continued with the WoD nerf in WvW.

[Coldtart.4785]

On 3/14/2023 at 2:02 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Ever since HoT Anet has doubled, quadrupled and octupled down on boon generation and passive AoE skills. Before we had to coordinate buffing and blasting combo fields now every class just vomits out perma boons on the run.

I fail to see why Anet would ever change their mind.

It all started when raids were added. Stacking every kind of boon quickly became standard in raids and the entire game has revolved around being able to spam every kind of boon ever since. You can trace just about every bad design decision made since HoT released to the existence of raids.