Condi Meta? Don't think so.

[Arheundel.6451]

@Abyssisis.3971 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:I’m currently using a condi soul beast with Axe/dagger and dagger/torch, as bigo said, shortbow is utter trash. And when I’m zerging, I use a burn guard, as that’s always fun.

Shortbow is far from being trash and conid ranger is viable now more than before thx to direct dmg nerf....so condi ranger is viable ...the OP is wrong.

Shortbow wasn’t viable before the balance patch and it also saw nerfs so it’s not viable now. I fought a trapper Druid using a shortbow inside an enemy camp and the guards were more of a threat than the player, thats how trash the weapon is.

Your anecdotal experience does not count as evidence, I fought and beaten all rangers SB or core using exactly trapper druid after the patch, it's a matter of gameplay and personal skill..guess the druid you defeated was as good as the core/sb I fought

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

So far while roaming on EU I've met:Condi Thief/Daredevil/Deadeye, Condi Mesmer/Mirage(still broken after all this nerfs that it's hilarious at this point), Condi Revenant/Herald(dominant condi roamer), Condi Core Engi, Condi Weaver, Condi Guardian/Dragonhunter/Firebrand, Condi Trap Ranger, Condi Core Necro(ewww can smell the nerfs already), Power Daredevil(evasion spammers as usual <3), Power Chronomancer, Power Warrior/Berserker/Spellbreaker(yay, still 8k+ dmg on 3k+ armor, another hilarious class), Power Soulbeast(sustain need nerfs~), Power Reaper, Power Elementalist/Weaver(FA), Power Dragonhunter, Power Holosmith/Scrapper.Mostly I've been meeting condi revs, mirages and deadeyes, less often rest of condi package together with power build representatives.Even in zerg fights you'll see a lot of these classes which is hilarious on its own, dire and trailblazer gives too much sustain with that damage.People may write "BrInG cOnDi ClEaNsE oR uSe ReSiStAnCe!", but I think they're kinda forgetting that some classes have chain-like condi application (apply 1 condi and get 5 more from traits/runes/sigils for free!) which kinda makes it hard to cleanse the most dangerous one and Resistance isn't available to everyone 24/7... XD

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

from what i saw on EU, it's rather condispam everywhere.

[Shroud.2307]

@KrHome.1920 said:Condi scourge is dead outside of the zerg and even in the zerg I'd be not surprised if the next meta will be wells power scourge.

Condi engineer is weak as it has always been.

I actually disagree on both of these. Granted if you take everything in to consideration; average WvW player isn't very good, meta still adjusting, I haven't fought many genuinely good players, etc. then yes, I suppose they're not amazing.

Still, I've had a lot of success with condition Holosmith both pre and post patch. It actually seems to be doing better post patch because my Burns last for-freaking-ever ( 36 seconds. The cooldown comes off before the first stack of Burn even wears off ) and I had to swap to full Trailblazer which I wasn't using before so my other conditions stick longer. I swapped to TB from Dire because pre patch I already had 100% Burn duration just from runes, traits, food and 2 pieces of TB. Post patch with the nerf to Incendiary Powder I needed to go full TB to maintain my 100% Burn duration.I use x3 Elixirs and have pretty solid condition cleanse as well as high condition application uptime. So far the only thing I can't seem to beat is boonbeast likely because of the broken Rugged Growth. I've killed multiple Eternal Life DM/BM Necros, mind you the fight takes a very long time, I can still eventually wear them down, and nothing else has been much of a problem.I'm not making any claims that condition Holo is super good or anything but, I disagree that it's weak anyway. If you strictly meant core condition Engi then yeah, it's still not great.

I avoided playing Scourge for a very long time because the spec never appealed to me. I still don't love it but, I picked it up post patch and I've been enjoying it quite a bit. Although a full condition build still isn't very good in zergs, I'm finding it to be pretty okay roaming/small scale. My condition output is absolutely sickening to the point I've won more than a few fights without fully knowing what I was even doing because I'm still not completely used to Scourge.Although it still has pretty bad self Barrier application and is very weak to high ranged pressure, I think my mid/melee range pressure is more than enough defense.

I was also doing some PvP 2v2s with Carrion Holosmith and had similar results to what I have in WvW. The only things I had pretty much 0 impact on was FB + Necro duos, Water Weavers and actual good condition Revenants. Otherwise I found it to be quite decent. I got paired with a support Firebrand one match and went 3 - 0 against a core Eternal Life Necro and condition Mirage too.

Anyway though I do think neither condi Scourge nor condi Holo are great I also think neither are weak. I actually thing I'll be a Scourge main for a while!

[DeadlySynz.3471]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"DeusVolt.4307" said:nice, while i see Burnbrands, scourges, core necros and condi revs everywhere. This post is easily the dumbest i've read so far lol. thanks for the laugh

In all fairness, NA seems to be a bit behind in the meta. But yes, this pretty much sums up EU currently.

Not only that, it seems that primarily the posters are coming from a small group/roaming point of view. This is why it makes me think that there needs to be a separate forum all together for roaming and small scale completely absent from medium to large scale which WvW is primarily about.

If there was new player to the game or someone that hasn't even played Gw2 at all but was interested in large scale PvP and they came to these forums, they'd be under the impression that WvW is dominated by Rangers, thieves, Holo's and mirages. Why do these classes even come up with anything to do with WvW meta?

[bigo.9037]

Well to be fair roaming is actually an important part of wvw if all 3 servers are trying to win.

The blob cares about t3 towers and keeps and even camps.

How do you get that? Defending dolyaks.

How do you prevent other servers from reaching t3 camps towers and keeps? Kill dolyaks and cap their camps and KEEP their camps for as long as possible. If no supply is run, you're never getting t3.And if you can't get your keeps/towers t3, they will be capped easily by blobs.

So in that sense, roaming is actually a very important part. The only problem is that most matchups aren't decided by skill, but by who has the most players and most coverage through day and night.

[Shroud.2307]

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"DeusVolt.4307" said:nice, while i see Burnbrands, scourges, core necros and condi revs everywhere. This post is easily the dumbest i've read so far lol. thanks for the laugh

In all fairness, NA seems to be a bit behind in the meta. But yes, this pretty much sums up EU currently.

Not only that, it seems that primarily the posters are coming from a small group/roaming point of view. This is why it makes me think that there needs to be a separate forum all together for roaming and small scale completely absent from medium to large scale which WvW is primarily about.

If there was new player to the game or someone that hasn't even played Gw2 at all but was interested in large scale PvP and they came to these forums, they'd be under the impression that WvW is dominated by Rangers, thieves, Holo's and mirages. Why do these classes even come up with anything to do with WvW meta?

I think a lot of times when people say something is very strong or weak it's entirely on perspective. Like if you're thinking about blue cars while you're driving, you're probably going to notice a lot more blue cars. Just like while roaming or zerging if you're thinking about how many people are playing bunkers or condition or power, etc., you're going to notice more of those.

I feel like the meta has shifted towards bunkers but some say it's condition and others say it's power. Maybe I think it's bunker because I often play glass/full glass builds and I feel like everyone is a tank now because I can't do as much damage as I used to.

I've played on both NA and EU and I played on EU for half a year on over a dozen servers. In my experience NA and EU are roughly the same with noticeable but minor differences. But it's also just that - my experience.

Too many people mistake their experiences for facts instead of taking it with a grain of salt and I think that's what makes some of these threads confusing. I'm on NA and one tier apart from OP but have had an entirely different experience, I just don't think one week is enough to determine if what I've seen will be the norm yet.

[Bezerker.2379]

@bigo.9037 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@bigo.9037 said:

@monkcrabswamp.9315 said:A lot of people are still testing their builds. My guild has been discussing going condi but that's in the stages of testing, and in the meantime we're running with whatever our guildies already know and trying to wring more performance out of them.

Give it a bit more time before you start going 'see, the meta hasn't changed after all'. (I'm NA, btw.)

See when it comes to roaming you really have to be realistic about it when it comes to condi. What specs can actually pull off condi playstyle? Mesmers can.. guardian / fb can do burnspam.. necros.. revenants?

condi weaver?condi warrior?condi engineer?condi thief?

All of those classes were or are run as condi builds in the past and/or now. Especially condi weaver which was even played last meta. That's on top of the classes you mentioned.

@bigo.9037 said:That's all I can think of. Everything else doesn't really have a proper condi setup. I tried ranger. I've probably spent about 20 hours before patch, and 5 after patch trying to think of ways to get it to work. It doesn't. Risk is high, reward is low. Why should I bother trying to land 5 abilities because my AA chain applies 0 condi, half of the skills in 900 range, other half in melee just to get a 2k condi tick that gets cleansed away with a single weapon swap, when I can just press 3 buttons on power build and deal 20k dmg in 1.5 seconds from 1200 range?

Have you even tried running a condi weapon as ranger? Last time I checked, shortbow does have condi on it's autos, as well as access to bleeding and poison. Burning from utility skills and Torch. I would love to see you deal 20k damage in 1.5 seconds to a target with toughness that's not afk.

Stop assuming your power damage will remain the same between full glass power builds and condi builds stacked with toughness.

@bigo.9037 said:That's the problem with condi. Sigil of cleansing makes it impossible to deal dmg ESPECIALLY when certain classes' condi traits and skills have been neglected since 2012.

If you can out cleanse a condi build with a 3 condi cleanse per 10 seconds, you deserve to win. I doubt a proper condi build applies that few condis, at least mine don't.

EDIT:small FYI, and I know both games modes are different, take a look at the pvp boards. Then take a look what people there are talking about. Pvp comes rather close to roaming with only lacking the ability to have more player incoming (which is rather big, granted).

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@bigo.9037 said:

@monkcrabswamp.9315 said:A lot of people are still testing their builds. My guild has been discussing going condi but that's in the stages of testing, and in the meantime we're running with whatever our guildies already know and trying to wring more performance out of them.

Give it a bit more time before you start going 'see, the meta hasn't changed after all'. (I'm NA, btw.)

See when it comes to roaming you really have to be realistic about it when it comes to condi. What specs can actually pull off condi playstyle? Mesmers can.. guardian / fb can do burnspam.. necros.. revenants?

condi weaver?condi warrior?condi engineer?condi thief?

All of those classes were or are run as condi builds in the past and/or now. Especially condi weaver which was even played last meta. That's on top of the classes you mentioned.

@bigo.9037 said:That's all I can think of. Everything else doesn't really have a proper condi setup. I tried ranger. I've probably spent about 20 hours before patch, and 5 after patch trying to think of ways to get it to work. It doesn't. Risk is high, reward is low. Why should I bother trying to land 5 abilities because my AA chain applies 0 condi, half of the skills in 900 range, other half in melee just to get a 2k condi tick that gets cleansed away with a single weapon swap, when I can just press 3 buttons on power build and deal 20k dmg in 1.5 seconds from 1200 range?

Have you even tried running a condi weapon as ranger? Last time I checked, shortbow does have condi on it's autos, as well as access to bleeding and poison. Burning from utility skills and Torch. I would love to see you deal 20k damage in 1.5 seconds to a target with toughness that's not afk.

Stop assuming your power damage will remain the same between full glass power builds and condi builds stacked with toughness.

@bigo.9037 said:That's the problem with condi. Sigil of cleansing makes it impossible to deal dmg ESPECIALLY when certain classes' condi traits and skills have been neglected since 2012.

If you can out cleanse a condi build with a 3 condi cleanse per 10 seconds, you deserve to win. I doubt a proper condi build applies that few condis, at least mine don't.

EDIT:small FYI, and I know both games modes are different, take a look at the pvp boards. Then take a look what people there are talking about. Pvp comes rather close to roaming with only lacking the ability to have more player incoming (which is rather big, granted).

Okay don't try to educate me on my main classes weapon skills when you clearly haven't even bothered trying to play it, and then tell ME if I have even looked at shortbow.

YOU try shortbow. It's the biggest joke in all of gw2 it has the lowest dmg ever and is terrible for kiting. The autos deal essentially 0 dmg because they are reduced by 50% if enemy is facing you, which is like 75% of the time you're fighting them or more. The poison? 0 dmg. Daze is nice, but useless unless you run druid so you can chain those together with ancient seeds. I've done my kitten research, so stop thinking you can school me on my own class that you have never touched except look at some skill descriptions.

Condi ranger sucks. Period. It has a chance in spvp because of nodes, but in open world it is worthless. Same in 2v2.

Not for nothing but my short bow bleeds do 1200 per auto from side or back. It's not as shitty as you think

[bigo.9037]

@Bezerker.2379 said:

@bigo.9037 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@bigo.9037 said:

@monkcrabswamp.9315 said:A lot of people are still testing their builds. My guild has been discussing going condi but that's in the stages of testing, and in the meantime we're running with whatever our guildies already know and trying to wring more performance out of them.

Give it a bit more time before you start going 'see, the meta hasn't changed after all'. (I'm NA, btw.)

See when it comes to roaming you really have to be realistic about it when it comes to condi. What specs can actually pull off condi playstyle? Mesmers can.. guardian / fb can do burnspam.. necros.. revenants?

condi weaver?condi warrior?condi engineer?condi thief?

All of those classes were or are run as condi builds in the past and/or now. Especially condi weaver which was even played last meta. That's on top of the classes you mentioned.

@bigo.9037 said:That's all I can think of. Everything else doesn't really have a proper condi setup. I tried ranger. I've probably spent about 20 hours before patch, and 5 after patch trying to think of ways to get it to work. It doesn't. Risk is high, reward is low. Why should I bother trying to land 5 abilities because my AA chain applies 0 condi, half of the skills in 900 range, other half in melee just to get a 2k condi tick that gets cleansed away with a single weapon swap, when I can just press 3 buttons on power build and deal 20k dmg in 1.5 seconds from 1200 range?

Have you even tried running a condi weapon as ranger? Last time I checked, shortbow does have condi on it's autos, as well as access to bleeding and poison. Burning from utility skills and Torch. I would love to see you deal 20k damage in 1.5 seconds to a target with toughness that's not afk.

Stop assuming your power damage will remain the same between full glass power builds and condi builds stacked with toughness.

@bigo.9037 said:That's the problem with condi. Sigil of cleansing makes it impossible to deal dmg ESPECIALLY when certain classes' condi traits and skills have been neglected since 2012.

If you can out cleanse a condi build with a 3 condi cleanse per 10 seconds, you deserve to win. I doubt a proper condi build applies that few condis, at least mine don't.

EDIT:small FYI, and I know both games modes are different, take a look at the pvp boards. Then take a look what people there are talking about. Pvp comes rather close to roaming with only lacking the ability to have more player incoming (which is rather big, granted).

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@bigo.9037 said:

@monkcrabswamp.9315 said:A lot of people are still testing their builds. My guild has been discussing going condi but that's in the stages of testing, and in the meantime we're running with whatever our guildies already know and trying to wring more performance out of them.

Give it a bit more time before you start going 'see, the meta hasn't changed after all'. (I'm NA, btw.)

See when it comes to roaming you really have to be realistic about it when it comes to condi. What specs can actually pull off condi playstyle? Mesmers can.. guardian / fb can do burnspam.. necros.. revenants?

condi weaver?condi warrior?condi engineer?condi thief?

All of those classes were or are run as condi builds in the past and/or now. Especially condi weaver which was even played last meta. That's on top of the classes you mentioned.

@bigo.9037 said:That's all I can think of. Everything else doesn't really have a proper condi setup. I tried ranger. I've probably spent about 20 hours before patch, and 5 after patch trying to think of ways to get it to work. It doesn't. Risk is high, reward is low. Why should I bother trying to land 5 abilities because my AA chain applies 0 condi, half of the skills in 900 range, other half in melee just to get a 2k condi tick that gets cleansed away with a single weapon swap, when I can just press 3 buttons on power build and deal 20k dmg in 1.5 seconds from 1200 range?

Have you even tried running a condi weapon as ranger? Last time I checked, shortbow does have condi on it's autos, as well as access to bleeding and poison. Burning from utility skills and Torch. I would love to see you deal 20k damage in 1.5 seconds to a target with toughness that's not afk.

Stop assuming your power damage will remain the same between full glass power builds and condi builds stacked with toughness.

@bigo.9037 said:That's the problem with condi. Sigil of cleansing makes it impossible to deal dmg ESPECIALLY when certain classes' condi traits and skills have been neglected since 2012.

If you can out cleanse a condi build with a 3 condi cleanse per 10 seconds, you deserve to win. I doubt a proper condi build applies that few condis, at least mine don't.

EDIT:small FYI, and I know both games modes are different, take a look at the pvp boards. Then take a look what people there are talking about. Pvp comes rather close to roaming with only lacking the ability to have more player incoming (which is rather big, granted).

Okay don't try to educate me on my main classes weapon skills when you clearly haven't even bothered trying to play it, and then tell ME if I have even looked at shortbow.

YOU try shortbow. It's the biggest joke in all of gw2 it has the lowest dmg ever and is terrible for kiting. The autos deal essentially 0 dmg because they are reduced by 50% if enemy is facing you, which is like 75% of the time you're fighting them or more. The poison? 0 dmg. Daze is nice, but useless unless you run druid so you can chain those together with ancient seeds. I've done my kitten research, so stop thinking you can school me on my own class that you have never touched except look at some skill descriptions.

Condi ranger sucks. Period. It has a chance in spvp because of nodes, but in open world it is worthless. Same in 2v2.

Not for nothing but my short bow bleeds do 1200 per auto from side or back. It's not as kitten as you think

Is that with sharpening stone? And how many times do you have to hit target for it to tick 1200?

Also again, I don't care what your bleed ticks are if you're attacking from the back.That's like saying "yea dude I just did an awesome 1v10. They were afk, but it doesn't matter I still won!"

If target is not even facing you then you can't come and tell me your build works.

SOO many people change their build and then they test it in wvw by running around with like 4 other pugs only taking on groups smaller and weaker than them and because they are "winning" they think their build is amazing "Wow look how I pinned him down! This build is amazing". Yea. Try doing that to competent players fighting you with even numbers and then come talk to me about your build.

[sneakytails.5629]

This is not about how many condition builds are currently running around NA or EU, its about condition builds not having to play by the same rules in gearing, (Trailblazer, Dire) and the fact that condition damage bypasses armor and toughness ,which power builds have to sacrifice for, and condition builds do not.

Its never been a level playing field. Its beyond obvious at this point.

[bigo.9037]

@sneakytails.5629 said:This is not about how many condition builds are currently running around NA or EU, its about condition builds not having to play by the same rules in gearing, (Trailblazer, Dire) and the fact that condition damage bypasses armor and toughness ,which power builds have to sacrifice for, and condition builds do not.

Its never been a level playing field. Its beyond obvious at this point.

That is very true. Conditions should need a 2nd stat to deal dmg. Why should power require 3, but condi only needs one? Doesn't make any sense.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@bigo.9037 said:

@sneakytails.5629 said:This is not about how many condition builds are currently running around NA or EU, its about condition builds not having to play by the same rules in gearing, (Trailblazer, Dire) and the fact that condition damage bypasses armor and toughness ,which power builds have to sacrifice for, and condition builds do not.

Its never been a level playing field. Its beyond obvious at this point.

That is very true. Conditions should need a 2nd stat to deal dmg. Why should power require 3, but condi only needs one? Doesn't make any sense.

Well, to be 100% correct there are 2. Expertise will increase condi damage via duration increases. However in WvW where cleanses are frequent you won't get much mileage out of it especially since you can spec for you main damage condition and easily get +80% duration without investment into expertise (50% from runes, 30% from sigils).

[God.2708]

I feel like a lot of people miss that pure condi damage deals very similar damage levels to pure soldiers armor. The only difference of course is that one can be cleansed before it deals its full damage and the other is mitigated by armor. Whether you feel those are equal playing fields is debatable. But saying that condi requires 1 stat and power requires 3 is not really factually true. Power has the ability to sacrifice defenses for more burst to end fights quicker, and conditions have the ability to spec more into duration and defensive stats to encourage extended engages in their favor.

If you were to tell me small fights greatly favor conditions builds I'd say that makes sense. Condition builds are generally not as mobile (cough mirage) and so investing in tankiness and favoring extends fights should give them an edge in something like a 1v1. So long as the builds have reliable tells rather than crouching traits hidden conditions bullshit going on that's fair. Power trades that for being much stronger when utilized with something like surprise and/or outnumbering scenarios giving you the opportunity to clean someone up and get out before they can fight back.

Large scale fights favoring conditions just tells me everyone hopped on the bandwagon and no one's really bothered to try to deal with it. If I were faced down with a pure condi group and knew I always would be dealing with such things I'd just slap condi reduction food and anti-toxin runes on my entire group. Anyone saying conditions would still win out over that is delusional. It will balance out and I likely think it will end up in a nice space where both condi and power builds are sought out in a large scale groups. Now, both of those may end up being scourges which will be the real dampener, but that's a different issue.

[Mokk.2397]

The patch did NOTHING to fix the issues that has plagued this game for the last year and a half . NOTHING . Excessive boon share , Excessive CC , Excessive stealth , Excessive auto evades. It didn't nerf the classes that needed the nerfing the most. All are still just as strong as before. All it did was neuter the only thing that kept the Condi in check and made the Meta at least some what fight able . Power builds ! . Now we have that same meta AGAIN but with condi . The same classes dominating the playing field . But now theirs NO mitigation of damage. Toughness is completely useless now. 3K of armour and it does nothing . A completely wasted attribute.Stability is completely useless for a single player now . The mount was the ONLY thing that made the imbalance of stability to CCs at least moderately tolerable . Now That is gone.W.T.F ANET are you intentionally trying to drive players away?

[Cyninja.2954]

@God.2708 said:I feel like a lot of people miss that pure condi damage deals very similar damage levels to pure soldiers armor. The only difference of course is that one can be cleansed before it deals its full damage and the other is mitigated by armor. Whether you feel those are equal playing feels is debatable. But saying that condi requires 1 stat and power requires 3 is not really factually true. Power has the ability to sacrifice defenses for more burst to end fights quicker, and conditions have the ability to spec more into duration and defensive stats to encourage extended engages in their favor.

Pure condi damage produces similar levels of damage as soldier gear WHILE bypassing armor/toughness and while being able to get cleansed.

Side issue which many miss but which is becoming more apparent currently is: most condi builds currently provide a ton more non damaging conditions (cripple, chill, immob, etc) over their power counterparts. That's what actually needs addressing,

@God.2708 said:Large scale fights favoring conditions just tells me everyone hopped on the bandwagon and no one's really bothered to try to deal with it. If I were faced down with a pure condi group and knew I always would be dealing with such things I'd just slap condi reduction food and anti-toxin runes on my entire group. Anyone saying conditions would still win out over that is delusional. It will balance out and I likely think it will end up in a nice space where both condi and power builds are sought out in a large scale groups. Now, both of those may end up being scourges which will be the real dampener, but that's a different issue.

If you have to change your entire setup only to accommodate only for condi, that's like saying the last meta was not power meta, you could have easily simply run double support guard groups. Because thats where we are at right now: 1 support guard and 1 condi cleanser per squad group to compete.

The condi reduction food is nice, and helps jack squat, just like standing in a bomb of 20 power damage dealers makes no difference to the amount of toughness you have (hence why damage dealers ran full berserker last meta). If 5-10 players hit you with their conditions, you will die unless cleansed. It makes no difference if they have only condi damage as stat with heavy toughness and it makes no difference if you have -60% condi duration.

[Eramonster.2718]

Condi scourge seems to work, need a few to make a difference.

Don't see any roaming scourge/necros, so no comments on that. Hardly see any or notable Mirage roaming after the patch. Few roaming bunker condi rev (battle of endurance), same feeling fighting againsts the old gyro scrapper.

[nthmetal.9652]

@Cyninja.2954 said:The condi reduction food is nice, and helps jack squat, just like standing in a bomb of 20 power damage dealers makes no difference to the amount of toughness you have (hence why damage dealers ran full berserker last meta). If 5-10 players hit you with their conditions, you will die unless cleansed. It makes no difference if they have only condi damage as stat with heavy toughness and it makes no difference if you have -60% condi duration.

... and vice versa. What I see happening is: The amount of CC is pretty insane. Every zerg we face (and our own, too, really) brings tons of CC. Maybe it's because ppl who do it, focus on it, since it doesn't deal damage anymore anyway. And if you get CCd not even the biggest cleansing will save you.

[God.2708]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

If you have to change your entire setup only to accommodate only for condi, that's like saying the last meta was not power meta, you could have easily simply run double support guard groups. Because thats where we are at right now: 1 support guard and 1 condi cleanser per squad group to compete.

The condi reduction food is nice, and helps jack squat, just like standing in a bomb of 20 power damage dealers makes no difference to the amount of toughness you have (hence why damage dealers ran full berserker last meta). If 5-10 players hit you with their conditions, you will die unless cleansed. It makes no difference if they have only condi damage as stat with heavy toughness and it makes no difference if you have -60% condi duration.

I didn't say you would have to. I said if I knew everyone was going to do condi I would kneejerk the other way in response. You CAN in fact stand in a 20 man condi bomb with 20 of your guys in all anti-toxin runes and straight tank it. There are plenty of pulsing condition removals and zero cast time condi clears that would render a pure condi bomb totally ineffectual. Resistance fields are also a thing. It takes time to adapt and people are use to playing against a power meta and the skill focuses that entails.

Damage dealers didn't run berserker because it is a power meta. They ran berserker because it was pirateship. The meta is about about minimizing how much you get hit and if you aren't getting hit why would you invest in defenses? The new meta is warping that paradigm and people are thinking anything that means your entire squad not running full berserkers aside from the lone FB is clearly the death of power and it is silly.

[Cyninja.2954]

@God.2708 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

If you have to change your entire setup only to accommodate only for condi, that's like saying the last meta was not power meta, you could have easily simply run double support guard groups. Because thats where we are at right now: 1 support guard and 1 condi cleanser per squad group to compete.

The condi reduction food is nice, and helps jack squat, just like standing in a bomb of 20 power damage dealers makes no difference to the amount of toughness you have (hence why damage dealers ran full berserker last meta). If 5-10 players hit you with their conditions, you will die unless cleansed. It makes no difference if they have only condi damage as stat with heavy toughness and it makes no difference if you have -60% condi duration.

I didn't say you would have to. I said if I knew everyone was going to do condi I would kneejerk the other way in response. You CAN in fact stand in a 20 man condi bomb with 20 of your guys in all anti-toxin runes and straight tank it. There are plenty of pulsing condition removals and zero cast time condi clears that would render a pure condi bomb totally ineffectual. Resistance fields are also a thing. It takes time to adapt and people are use to playing against a power meta and the skill focuses that entails.

Yes, good luck with that. The internal WvW guild group composition we currently have is running 3 firebrands (for overall support and stab), 3 dedicated condi cleanse builds (scrapper and elementalists) and 2 support warriors (with again heavy condi manage) for a 15 man setup. All that just to sustain against an organized spike of an opposing 15 player squad with half condi and half power builds. You have not eaten a spike condi bomb from 10+ players if you assume you can simply tank it without cleanse. Oh and FYI, that setup barely covers the condi bomb atm (from approximately 4-5 organized spiking players) since many condi cleanses were reduced last patch (for whatever reason) as was healing .

@God.2708 said:Damage dealers didn't run berserker because it is a power meta. They ran berserker because it was pirateship. The meta is about about minimizing how much you get hit and if you aren't getting hit why would you invest in defenses? The new meta is warping that paradigm and people are thinking anything that means your entire squad not running full berserkers aside from the lone FB is clearly the death of power and it is silly.

What are you talking about, pirateship hasn't been meta on EU in over 1-2 years... the meta was ranged spike -> melee ball the entire time while scourges had their insane personal area damage. 0_0

If this is NA meta, sure, in a different thread on the same subject it's been rather obvious that NA is still trying to make power work. Let's give it some time.

[God.2708]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

If you have to change your entire setup only to accommodate only for condi, that's like saying the last meta was not power meta, you could have easily simply run double support guard groups. Because thats where we are at right now: 1 support guard and 1 condi cleanser per squad group to compete.

The condi reduction food is nice, and helps jack squat, just like standing in a bomb of 20 power damage dealers makes no difference to the amount of toughness you have (hence why damage dealers ran full berserker last meta). If 5-10 players hit you with their conditions, you will die unless cleansed. It makes no difference if they have only condi damage as stat with heavy toughness and it makes no difference if you have -60% condi duration.

I didn't say you would have to. I said if I knew everyone was going to do condi I would kneejerk the other way in response. You CAN in fact stand in a 20 man condi bomb with 20 of your guys in all anti-toxin runes and straight tank it. There are plenty of pulsing condition removals and zero cast time condi clears that would render a pure condi bomb totally ineffectual. Resistance fields are also a thing. It takes time to adapt and people are use to playing against a power meta and the skill focuses that entails.

Yes, good luck with that. The internal WvW guild group composition we currently have is running 3 firebrands (for overall support and stab), 3 dedicated condi cleanse builds (scrapper and elementalists) and 2 support warriors (with again heavy condi manage) for a 15 man setup. All that just to sustain against an organized spike of an opposing 15 player squad with half condi and half power builds. You have not eaten a spike condi bomb from 10+ players if you assume you can simply tank it without cleanse. Oh and FYI, that setup barely covers the condi bomb atm (from approximately 4-5 organized spiking players) since many condi cleanses were reduced last patch (for whatever reason) as was healing .

@God.2708 said:Damage dealers didn't run berserker because it is a power meta. They ran berserker because it was pirateship. The meta is about about minimizing how much you get hit and if you aren't getting hit why would you invest in defenses? The new meta is warping that paradigm and people are thinking anything that means your entire squad not running full berserkers aside from the lone FB is clearly the death of power and it is silly.

What are you talking about, pirateship hasn't been meta on EU in over 1-2 years... the meta was ranged spike -> melee ball the entire time while scourges had their insane personal area damage. 0_0

If this is NA meta, sure, in a different thread on the same subject it's been rather obvious that NA is still trying to make power work. Let's give it some time.

I'm... not sure we have the same definition of pirateship then. If you are waiting for a ranged spike (and not pushing till your ranged spike succeeds, yes that is what most EU groups do I've played with a few and watched many others) you are pirateshiping. Trying to broadside your opponent and then move in to board. The melee is cleaner than it was when pirateship terminology first emerged, where pushing into melee at all was suicidal due to stab getting insta obliterated by stacked statics and the like, but it still follows very much the same pattern. Not referencing GvG of course. 15s haven't been pirateship based for a while, I'll toast to that.

I'm also not sure why you think I'm not cleansing.

[Aeolus.3615]

I don’t understand this condi meta groups, even a spirit weapon stacked from several fb and basted counter this meta... not even talking about classes that can be more didicated to condi cleanse.

[Cyninja.2954]

@God.2708 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

If you have to change your entire setup only to accommodate only for condi, that's like saying the last meta was not power meta, you could have easily simply run double support guard groups. Because thats where we are at right now: 1 support guard and 1 condi cleanser per squad group to compete.

The condi reduction food is nice, and helps jack squat, just like standing in a bomb of 20 power damage dealers makes no difference to the amount of toughness you have (hence why damage dealers ran full berserker last meta). If 5-10 players hit you with their conditions, you will die unless cleansed. It makes no difference if they have only condi damage as stat with heavy toughness and it makes no difference if you have -60% condi duration.

I didn't say you would have to. I said if I knew everyone was going to do condi I would kneejerk the other way in response. You CAN in fact stand in a 20 man condi bomb with 20 of your guys in all anti-toxin runes and straight tank it. There are plenty of pulsing condition removals and zero cast time condi clears that would render a pure condi bomb totally ineffectual. Resistance fields are also a thing. It takes time to adapt and people are use to playing against a power meta and the skill focuses that entails.

Yes, good luck with that. The internal WvW guild group composition we currently have is running 3 firebrands (for overall support and stab), 3 dedicated condi cleanse builds (scrapper and elementalists) and 2 support warriors (with again heavy condi manage) for a 15 man setup. All that just to sustain against an organized spike of an opposing 15 player squad with half condi and half power builds. You have not eaten a spike condi bomb from 10+ players if you assume you can simply tank it without cleanse. Oh and FYI, that setup barely covers the condi bomb atm (from approximately 4-5 organized spiking players) since many condi cleanses were reduced last patch (for whatever reason) as was healing .

@God.2708 said:Damage dealers didn't run berserker because it is a power meta. They ran berserker because it was pirateship. The meta is about about minimizing how much you get hit and if you aren't getting hit why would you invest in defenses? The new meta is warping that paradigm and people are thinking anything that means your entire squad not running full berserkers aside from the lone FB is clearly the death of power and it is silly.

What are you talking about, pirateship hasn't been meta on EU in over 1-2 years... the meta was ranged spike -> melee ball the entire time while scourges had their insane personal area damage. 0_0

If this is NA meta, sure, in a different thread on the same subject it's been rather obvious that NA is still trying to make power work. Let's give it some time.

I'm... not sure we have the same definition of pirateship then. If you are waiting for a ranged spike (and not pushing till your ranged spike succeeds, yes that is what most EU groups do I've played with a few and watched many others) you are pirateshiping. Trying to broadside your opponent and then move in to board. The melee is cleaner than it was when pirateship terminology first emerged, where pushing into melee at all was suicidal due to stab getting insta obliterated by stacked statics and the like, but it still follows very much the same pattern. Not referencing GvG of course. 15s haven't been pirateship based for a while, I'll toast to that.

I'm also not sure why you think I'm not cleansing.

Exactly, the current meta involves getting downs or primraly bainting the enemies bomb, then moving in and melee push down the rest. Which was literally suicide during shipping until you decimated the enemy far enough. The last meta involved baiting the enemies spike, then pushing with your own spike strait into melee range while self sustaining. That's not pirate-shipping, that's ranged spike with melee ball.

Simple:

@God.2708 said:You CAN in fact stand in a 20 man condi bomb with 20 of your guys in all anti-toxin runes and straight tank it.

If you are cleansing, you don't need those reductions, on the contrary, if your cleanse is sufficient, those are wasted stats. If you are not cleansing, those reduction won't save you against damage from x players. Just as 2k toughness won't save you against a spike of x amount of power damage players.

Condi reduction works in small scale to counter condi builds without dedicating to hard to cleanse when trying to out damage the condi player for a fast win. They are meaningless in big scale fights where the condis will kill you unless cleansed. If you have x stacks of condis doing 200k damage over their entire duration, it's rather worthless to reduce those condis to 80k, you're still dead in the same of initial ticks.

EDIT: don't assume condition duration decrease is the same as condition damage reduction, because it is not. It might have the same effect over the entire cycle of the condition, but it certainly does not have the same effect on the first 2-3 ticks.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Yes, good luck with that. The internal WvW guild group composition we currently have is running 3 firebrands (for overall support and stab), 3 dedicated condi cleanse builds (scrapper and elementalists) and 2 support warriors (with again heavy condi manage) for a 15 man setup. All that just to sustain against an organized spike of an opposing 15 player squad with half condi and half power builds. You have not eaten a spike condi bomb from 10+ players if you assume you can simply tank it without cleanse. Oh and FYI, that setup barely covers the condi bomb atm (from approximately 4-5 organized spiking players) since many condi cleanses were reduced last patch (for whatever reason) as was healing ."All that?"

Hm... So its roughly (ignoring less spellbreakers):

1 fb (heal, stab), 1 scrapper (heal, cleanse), 1 spellbreaker (cleanse, bubble) + 2 dps to form a 5 man party.

But... thats... the exact same meta as prepatch?

[God.2708]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Condi reduction works in small scale to counter condi builds without dedicating to hard to cleanse when trying to out damage the condi player for a fast win. They are meaningless in big scale fights where the condis will kill you unless cleansed. If you have x stacks of condis doing 200k damage over their entire duration, it's rather worthless to reduce those condis to 80k, you're still dead in the same of initial ticks.

EDIT: don't assume condition duration decrease is the same as condition damage reduction, because it is not. It might have the same effect over the entire cycle of the condition, but it certainly does not have the same effect on the first 2-3 ticks.

Are we forgetting the sixth effect of anti-toxin runes?

[bluberblasen.9684]

@"DeusVolt.4307" said:nice, while i see Burnbrands, scourges, core necros and condi revs everywhere. This post is easily the dumbest i've read so far lol. thanks for the laugh

let me add high sustain weaver than i agree with you.