Should Fractals be more Intuitive at Lower Levels?

[Game of Bones.8975]

Take any random Initiate level Fractal and five players who haven't heard anything about how to defeat it and what are the chances they will be successful?

I've been more active on that scene recently and playing "follow-the-leader."

How do a group of noobs learn when the trial-and-error usually ends in error and frustration?

[yoni.7015]

Basically in low fractals it is just damage.

[kharmin.7683]

My small, casual group hasn't gotten past level 7. However, it has been trial/error (and a little help from wiki) but we've enjoyed the content when we're in the mood to do Fractals. I don't see a need for them to be more intuitive.

[Danikat.8537]

How do players figure out anything in the game? When I've done Fractals where everyone in the group is new to it working out what to do comes down to a combination of listening to what the NPCs or instructions tell you and experimenting with what's around. Exploring until you find the right direction to go, using anything which is interactable and watching to see what happens, and killing enemies as and when you come across them. Plus discussing your findings with the group so you can put the pieces together.

Some Fractals do take much longer that way (for me Snowblind always takes ages with an inexperienced group, especially since I can never seem to remember it correctly) but that's part of the challenge of any RPG. Most games have those things which are easy once you know exactly what to do, where the challenge comes from working out how to use the tools available to you in the right way.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

Somebody figured it out. Therefore figuring it out is doable. Early fractals are forgiving so that you can make mistakes and learn. If some players don't want to figure them out in play, let them use Youtube. Leave what little figuring out the game provides for those who want to figure it out.

[Friday.7864]

I had no idea what to do in some fractals when I was starting out.So I watched a video guide on the daily fractals each time there was a new one on the list.That or get someone to explain it to you, plenty of ppl are willing to help.

Or suffer trying to figure it out yourself. Later on at higher tiers the stuff you can facetank and skip in T1 will kill you and possibly your entire party, just a heads up.

[Lexi.1398]

I think the sheer majority of problems with intuitiveness in fractals comes down to a lack of experiences in general which teach basic game mechanics. Like how everyone who knows what CC is constantly complains where the simple act of breaking a defiance bar fails and x boss doesn't die, the game doesnt teach it at all. On that note, there are multiple defiance based mechanics in fractals which a CC tutorial or something could take care of. I don't think there are too many things which aren't intuitive, ofc, i have the option for interactable object names always on which helps a little bit. The least intuitive fractal IMO actualy has fairly solid combat in how attacks and mechanics are telegraphed (apart from CC), but twilight oasis is not intuitve in directions...xD But i also played a lot of games, so i know that if touching a thing is an option, then its probably something i need to touch to progress, and if something looks interesting it is more likely to be a choice based on mechanics than just a pretty environment.

Things i wish were more intuitve:orbs on shattered observatory, the ball itself needs a telegraph in its direction and not just a circle on the ground (a circle which you may not even see in the case of the cliffs part).the very first ice wall on snowblind. i think a fire strength bar would contribute to both the importance of killing ice elementals (already well indicated as theyre the only dudes who get swords on their head), and the importance of gathering wood.the fire sheild on the boss of volcanic needs a much better indicator for how it is destroyed, and honestly IMO could probably do with an actual mechanic for destruction instead of just hitting it (but that isn't really related to this thread).i think the swampland bloomhunger fight is pretty intuitve as is, but i see loads of players not standing in the light in t1 so i think something is wrong. perhaps a simple announcement like "follow the light" or something could help?jade maw needs like big red text saying "you are targetted for [the attack you need to use a skill to reflect]" whenever you're targeted, or words to those effect, but like volcanic boss it's another thing where i think honestly the entire fight needs revamped and making it more intuitive comes with it. maybe a proper miniboss that uses the mechanic but instead of downing the player as punishment, can't be damaged until it's successfully reflected? idk.

nothing else stands out to me massively.

[Blocki.4931]

I've just recently gone through some tier 1s again and I have to say if I didn't already know about most of them I would have had 0 idea what to do. It's never explained, you have to figure it out yourself and that is just plain awful.

[Cuks.8241]

Not everything needs to be explained. Figuring out stuff is part of games.

[Dante.1763]

@Cuks.8241 said:Not everything needs to be explained. Figuring out stuff is part of games.

i agree mostly, but if i wouldnt have had someone to explain the fractals back when i first started i would have been incredibly lost. Same with raids. Theres a middle ground that can be achieved but eh.

[Blocki.4931]

@Cuks.8241 said:Not everything needs to be explained. Figuring out stuff is part of games.

You can give basic instructions that don't leave people clueless, they're still left figuring out what or how to best do it. Just dumping people in and giving extremely cryptic directions just doesn't speak for the game anymore. That was 2012 approach at creating dungeons showing its face in many of the early fractals.

[Game of Bones.8975]

That's one problem I've found with GW2...good content is hid behind the "find it out yourself" argument.

Such as when it comes down to something that people really want everyone to know, (IE dealing with CC and the break-bar) and in comes in the complaint that there are too many noobs who are clueless and should really learn the basics of the game.

I want to be a productive member of any group, but I can't be until I learn and I'm not learning if I constantly die.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Like with most pve content in mmos, it comes down to experience and understanding how the game works. When a new fractal is released, veteran players can usually figure it out in a couple hours or less at T4 difficulty. If you show the same fractal to someone brand new to the game, it might take them all day just to finish it in T1. You just have to learn what to pay attention to. What is the encounter? Is there an objective listed? Are there NPCs or other enemies/objects to interact with? Do you have a special action ability? Does the boss have a breakbar, phases, or other important mechanics? If you generally know how group combat works, and know your class well, you can usually learn the fights pretty quickly.

[Cyninja.2954]

@"Game of Bones.8975" said:That's one problem I've found with GW2...good content is hid behind the "find it out yourself" argument.

Such as when it comes down to something that people really want everyone to know, (IE dealing with CC and the break-bar) and in comes in the complaint that there are too many noobs who are clueless and should really learn the basics of the game.

I want to be a productive member of any group, but I can't be until I learn and I'm not learning if I constantly die.

To be honest though: the story and a ton of content added to the game over the last 2 years is screaming at players how to deal with break bars (the blue bar below the health bar of enemies). If players aren't paying attention, there is not much the developer can add to help. There has to be some minor interest and awareness coming from the player too.

As far as fractals are concerned, those with mechanics (like swamp and the whisps) have those explained in the event window in the top right, otherwise it's just run somewhere and see what happens. Fractals overall are not that big as that one could get lost. Trial and error will lead to success, just as with dungeons. For anyone who is challenged by basic MMORPG behavior and design, there are guide videos outside of the game.

[Khisanth.2948]

@"Game of Bones.8975" said:That's one problem I've found with GW2...good content is hid behind the "find it out yourself" argument.

Such as when it comes down to something that people really want everyone to know, (IE dealing with CC and the break-bar) and in comes in the complaint that there are too many noobs who are clueless and should really learn the basics of the game.

Learning stuff is something everyone has to do from when they are born until pretty much until they die. Games are not exempt from that. As for the defiance bar ... all it takes is a single thought "hey what does that blue bar that sometimes pop up mean?" ...

I want to be a productive member of any group, but I can't be until I learn and I'm not learning if I constantly die.

At this point in the game's life pretty much all content has been documented in some form or another. Much of it is conveniently all in one spot on the wiki.

Since you don't want to figure it out yourself you should be using those resources. What is wrong with the existing information?

[Ayrilana.1396]

I disagree that anything needs to be done. Coddling players even further than they are now will make the player skill situation even worse. We got to where we are now because Anet removed any challenge whenever a group of people complained on the forums or reddit. It's gotten to the point that if you feel challenged, just complain, and Anet will remove it for you.

[Asum.4960]

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:I disagree that anything needs to be done. Coddling players even further than they are now will make the player skill situation even worse. We got to where we are now because Anet removed any challenge whenever a group of people complained on the forums or reddit. It's gotten to the point that if you feel challenged, just complain, and Anet will remove it for you.

It's such a strange development in gaming. That first time playing when a new Fractal comes out, getting to figure it out and learn it is the most exciting part for me.

Gaming used be be about getting to play new content, getting to figure out new things, getting to be able to access out of game resources, getting to play with other players etc., and then getting some sort of reward was a nice bonus at the end of it.Now is seems the mindset to everything for a lot of people is that they "have to", Have to play new content, have to figure things out, have to check out resources, have to play with other players, so they then finally can get some sort of reward as main goal after the chore of gaming is done.And everything has to be made easier and easier, simpler and simpler, to lessen that "chore" of actually figuring out and playing the game before the reward is gained.

From Swampland with enemies being ghostly and invulnerable unless they come in contact with the wisps, for which you really only have to look around once to realise what's going on, to Snowblind where you have to collect firefood to keep up a bonfire and keep Ice Elementals from diving into the fire to melt and extinguish it - it's really quite self-explanatory if one observes the environment. How could that be any more intuitive?Even less immediately obvious things like the Legendary Imbued Shaman Shield I'm pretty sure can just be hovered over in his buff bar to learn that attacks strip stacks of the shield and how many are left.

But just like when visiting a new city, if you just follow someone around who is experienced with the place without paying attention yourself, you will never learn where to go on your own.You do have to pay attention and be willing to learn, and if there's anything you get stuck on anyway, there are always fantastic resources like the wiki to call on - making sure no one gets left behind who doesn't want to.

I really don't want games to simplify everything until they are essentially just full of straight corridors with giant red arrows and prompts pointing the way, so gods forbid no one accidentally gets turned around in boredom and walks back in the wrong direction away from the reward.Which unfortunately is how a lot of content already feels like.

Now I'm not saying that's what you, OP, are asking for in this case but how do people learn new content such as this?Look at it, analyse it, play it, enjoy it!That's the best part of gaming. Once everything in known and easy and you can just walk through it with all that's left to gain being the reward at the end, that's imo when the fun start's to be slowly over (unless one adopts an efficiency chasing mindset).

[Dante.1763]

@Asum.4960 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:I disagree that anything needs to be done. Coddling players even further than they are now will make the player skill situation even worse. We got to where we are now because Anet removed any challenge whenever a group of people complained on the forums or reddit. It's gotten to the point that if you feel challenged, just complain, and Anet will remove it for you.

It's such a strange development in gaming. That first time playing when a new Fractal comes out,

getting

to figure it out and learn it is the most exciting part for me.

Gaming used be be about

getting

to play new content,

getting

to figure out new things,

getting

to be able to access out of game resources,

getting

to play with other players etc., and then getting some sort of reward was a nice bonus at the end of it.Now is seems the mindset to everything for a lot of people is that they "have to",

Have to

play new content,

have to

figure things out,

have to

check out resources,

have to

play with other players, so they then finally can get some sort of

reward

as main goal after the chore of gaming is done.And everything has to be made easier and easier, simpler and simpler, to lessen that "chore" of actually figuring out and playing the game before the reward is gained.

Every game ive ever played from the time i was 6 had a tutorial of some sort, some where pretty basic showing only the basic controls but the best ones IMO where the ones that explained new mechanics whenever they where added. "Getting" to play the content was always a joy, but knowing how to do the content before i went and did it even if it was a vague concept was even better.

You are right though, gaming has become a chore of a sort. Games put rewards behind hours and hours of grind, not even fun grind most times and its not even just MMOs that are guilty of it. I can pick up a game released in the early 2000s, decide i want a thing in that game, and go get that thing within an hour or two. GW2 is awful for doing such things as well. If content(Whatever content) is enjoyable from the start i wont call it a grind. Pve? Not a grind. Raids? A grind.

Not everyone learns the same either, some learn by doing, some by watching, reading etc. Why get upset or annoyed that players want information put to them in a way they can learn effectively?

@Asum.4960 said:

But just like when visiting a new city, if you just follow someone around who is experienced with the place without paying attention yourself, you will never learn where to go on your own.

Yea no. I learn best by following someone around for a bit when it comes to new cities, they are mazes of roads, its far to easy to get lost, and that leads to panic, ill avoid that thanks. Again not everyone learns the same.

@Asum.4960 said:You do have to pay attention and be willing to learn, and if there's anything you get stuck on anyway, there are always fantastic resources like the wiki to call on - making sure no one gets left behind who doesn't want to.

Reading by learning is only way. Some concepts arent explained well in text. For example my mother who plays this game far more than i do has issues understanding core mechanics(breakbar for isntance) because theres nothing in game that explains them and what effects them. I had to spend -hours- demonstrating on bosses what the effects of CC are on bosses and the benefits of breaking that bar before she finally understood. Had i not done that she wouldnt have learned.

[Asum.4960]

@Dante.1763 said:Yea no. I learn best by following someone around for a bit when it comes to new cities, they are mazes of roads, its far to easy to get lost, and that leads to panic, ill avoid that thanks. Again not everyone learns the same.

Absolutely, but that wasn't my point, was it?Having someone experienced around surely is great, but one still has to pay attention themselves to learn.Many people, especially in gaming, put their brain in "cruise control" when following around an experienced player and don't analyse why or what they are doing themselves along the way, and the next time they are in the content without that player they still have no idea what they are doing.

@Dante.1763 said:Reading by learning is only way. Some concepts arent explained well in text. For example my mother who plays this game far more than i do has issues understanding core mechanics(breakbar for isntance) because theres nothing in game that explains them and what effects them. I had to spend -hours- demonstrating on bosses what the effects of CC are on bosses and the benefits of breaking that bar before she finally understood. Had i not done that she wouldnt have learned.

I absolutely agree with better tutorialisation of core game mechanics like Break Bars.Now I don't think the concept of a bar being depleted by disabling skills is that complex of a system, but the game simply never forces anyone to engage with and learn it outside of hardcore content.Generally in open world and Story breakbars are optional since the content is easy enough where players can just ignore fundamental mechanics such as this one and just brute force through it without learning anything, other than having read about Breakbars somewhere. The practical element is missing because it's too optional due to lack of difficulty in the majority of content to a point where it's simply ignored.Although to Anet's credit, they are trying recently like with the latest Darkrime Delves Visions of the Past Episode to enforce breakbars a lot more.

As for people not being able to learn well by text, absolutely. But the wiki and guides is just the backup for people who can't learn by doing by just playing the game (or for those who wish to prepare slightly beforehand), which is certainly already possible.

[Westenev.5289]

T1 Fractals aren't the problem; it's an entry level instance that people need to succeed to feel confident enough to move up to teir 2 and beyond.

[Algreg.3629]

apart from Thaumanova, I cannot think of any fractal mechanic that cannot be figured out quickly.

[Nephalem.8921]

With proper builds everything dies so fast in t1 that you dont have to do any mechanics. The SO ball mechanic also scales so you dont even have to use the SAK. Its so easy in t1 and 2 that most people only start realizing some mechanics in t3 or 4.Players doing normal SO dont even use the Sak most of the time. The arrow indicator also has to be a joke for the ball. In t1 the impacts are so close together that most can be reached with rp walk.Most of the mechanics dont exist in t1 like the retal in reworked weapon test or knockback on harpies.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@"Game of Bones.8975" said:Take any random Initiate level Fractal and five players who haven't heard anything about how to defeat it and what are the chances they will be successful?

I've been more active on that scene recently and playing "follow-the-leader."

How do a group of noobs learn when the trial-and-error usually ends in error and frustration?

Intuitive? Where in this game is anything intuitive? Forget Fractals, how many times over the years have we walked into a personal story / LW story encounter and took a bit to figure out what the mechanics were, and how to win?

I'm not advocating for full on hand-holding or anything, but there is a middle ground, but I find it way too many situations ANET just expects players to already know what they should do.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:Intuitive? Where in this game is anything intuitive? Forget Fractals, how many times over the years have we walked into a personal story / LW story encounter and took a bit to figure out what the mechanics were, and how to win?

Not even once? Maybe like 10-20sec during the pof endboss where you had to stay in a circle.

[Danikat.8537]

I don't think they expect you to already know what to do, but I think they expect it to take a bit of time to figure out, like you said. Maybe intuitive isn't the right word for it, but I definitely wouldn't want to see anything in the game which isn't obvious the very first time you ever see it to be dumbed down until it is.

A game where everything can be beaten without ever having to stop and think about how to do it sounds (literally) mind-numbingly boring.