NO Downstate should STAY permanently. - [Merged]

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:i can already see people shouting at duelists because they get downed by their opponents and give them points...but the real issue would be a group of friends accross 2 servers with one downing repeatedly the other group and another one revivng them as fast as possible so you get to farm points, XP or whatever this would give you.thus arenanet will never give any reward for simply downing someone.

If you think this doesn't already happen with finishes and just wait till OOC to let buddies rez and swap sides to get points/abuse the system I got a lack of war in Ba Sing Se to sell you...

[Helicity.3416]

My take away is: the people who like downstate are the people who run around with buddies to res them.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

@Helicity.3416 said:My take away is: the people who like downstate are the people who run around with buddies to res them.

But but but but but THINK OF THE COMPLEXITY of COMBAT SITUATIONS that down state brings!!! You're just not skilled enough to save survival CDs for finishing me while my friends resurrect!! /s

[ASP.8093]

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@Helicity.3416 said:My take away is: the people who like downstate are the people who run around with buddies to res them.

But but but but but THINK OF THE COMPLEXITY of COMBAT SITUATIONS that down state brings!!! You're just not skilled enough to save survival CDs for finishing me while my friends resurrect!! /s

Honestly, I think that would be fine if a tanky player with a single stability cooldown couldn't rub someone back to health faster than you can stomp them if you take even half a second to do anything at all before you mash F.

[Sobx.1758]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:No downstate exposes all the bad players that can’t assess complex game mechanics and interactions.

True, it exposed pretty well all of the zerg hugging players that need to be saved by downstate safety net when they fail at actual fights. :D

[Seryi.7936]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@scerevisiae.1972 said:very very few people actually like it.

(only about 70% of the people but lets totally live in the magical land of opposite truth)

I rarely post, but I just needed to chime in for emphasis. If there's anything glancing at the forums proves, it's that there's good reasons why the average poster

isn't

in charge of game design nor balance decisions. Very,

very

good reasons.@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:Content like this is not hard to make for yourself if you actually try to fight outnumbered. This situation is not uncommon at ALL and is hardly worth filming if not for all the 'no downstate' discussion.This same situation can happen in PvP to a lesser extent, yet the complaints about down state are much, much less frequent there in spite of being overall a far more competitive environment. I wonder why none of the top percentile complains about it? I mean, it's such a carry for bad players, right?

[Seryi.7936]

@hobotnicax.7918 said:The problem is that downed state provides too big of a crutch.It's a good idea for PVE and sPvP, but not for WvW.... Also nothing worse than fighting 1v2/3 and downing 1 guy for him to be insta res'd and you're left there holding your dck which is now limp cause you have all of your skills on cooldown. But wait, there's more! The guy you downed can still damage you, a lot of the time for more than when he was alive and standing.The same situation happens quite often in PvP and yet you say that down state is just fine in that environment. Sounds less like an issue with downed state to me, more like an issue with builds... and with an expectation that you should be able to win grossly outnumbered. If the players are even remotely close in skill (not equal, you just need to not be a total bot), you won't be killing them 1v3 or 10v40, and this change will still result in you losing battles.

Somehow I cast serious doubt on all these claims that opponents are so much worse than these pro players, and yet said player who is far more skilled can't secure a single kill, or use the downed player as an advantage. Especially given all the builds quite capable of 1vX. Maybe that's just the crux of the issue. Maybe there's no way to succeed in true parity across skill levels in a game that is notoriously known as BUILD WARS.

[serialkicker.5274]

I'm not a WvWer, but what about a mechanic where if you get downed once and rezzed, a cooldown of one minute or whatever kicks in and if you get downed in that time again, you instantly die? Kinda middle ground I suppose.

[Luclinraider.2317]

All of the esports scene and the competitive pro's from WoW arena who gave GW2 a go at launch all said down state needs to be removed in order for GW2 pvp to be competitive or move forward.Anet refused to admit their mistakes and sealed GW2 fate with regard to PvP.Even 8 years laters I still see the weekly post begging for downed state to be removed from WvW and SPvP....but the PvP community is long gone and all that's left are bots and new players who leave after a month lol.Really sad because the games combat is fantastic, but their failure to admit their mistakes and remove downed state and rally from PvP has been the biggest thing working against pvp from the start.Sucks when you're your own greatest enemy lol.

[MLinni.6109]

Yeah, just most of the people I play with in WvW really really hate no downstate. The weekly no downstate post is mainly a circlejerk ofpeople running spike power builds. About 70-80% of our guilds absolutely hated the even one week experience.I can just hope ANET will never cave in to those repetitive posts. Else we'll have another Amazon who thought there was a demandfor New World being a forced PvP game.

[Sceinna.3561]

I've asked for this almost 10 years ago when I still played. It's been 6 years since I last played GW2 now. Not because of the game, just don't have time for gaming in general, sadly enough.

Downed state is something only zergs and PVE benefit from, in PvP it plays a huge role too ofc, but in WvW it ruins a lot of fights.

I remember 1v10 fights where I had to down a guy so many times he instantly died. Downed once is fine, if you go downed twice within a minute you should stay down. The penalty isn't harsh enough.

• Laela Blackbird

[hobotnicax.7918]

@Seryi.7936 said:

@"hobotnicax.7918" said:The problem is that downed state provides too big of a crutch.It's a good idea for PVE and sPvP, but not for WvW.... Also nothing worse than fighting 1v2/3 and downing 1 guy for him to be insta res'd and you're left there holding your dck which is now limp cause you have all of your skills on cooldown. But wait, there's more! The guy you downed can still damage you, a lot of the time for more than when he was alive and standing.The same situation happens quite often in PvP and yet you say that down state is just fine in that environment. Sounds less like an issue with downed state to me, more like an issue with builds... and with an expectation that you should be able to win grossly outnumbered. If the players are even remotely close in skill (not equal, you just need to not be a total bot), you won't be killing them 1v3 or 10v40, and this change will still result in you losing battles.

Somehow I cast serious doubt on all these claims that opponents are so much worse than these pro players, and yet said player who is far more skilled can't secure a single kill, or use the downed player as an advantage. Especially given all the builds quite capable of 1vX. Maybe that's just the crux of the issue. Maybe there's no way to succeed in true parity across skill levels in a game that is notoriously known as BUILD WARS.

Yeah, in sPvP it's fine, cause in a case of 1v3 there isn't an option of more than 2 extra players jumping in your fights as is in WvW where you can go from a "fair" 1v3 vs baddies to a 1v6-7 after you spend so much time trying to finish off downies that get ressed over and over again, and also there's no NPCs on capture points that also deal dmg and cc you as well. So no, downed state in WvW is not fine, it's a crutch plain and simple.I find it hilarious that you try to defend it, are you really that oblivious to how un-fun downed state has been in WvW?I wonder why Anet adds such events then... I wonder why Anet added stomp to mounts when they were introduced. And I wonder how many tears were directed at Anet so they finally folded and removed that feature.When you're down, you're down - you lost, it's over, that's how it should be.

Removing downed state as it is right now, or at least nerfing it to baseline 10k hp and no skills you can use is how you start REAL balance. People won't run as much in full glass anymore and the thrill of when you're down = you lost, would benefit WvW and perhaps also encourage sub par players to getting better and not relying so much on getting carried by others when they go down.

[Emberheart.8426]

@hobotnicax.7918 said:

@Seryi.7936 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:The problem is that downed state provides too big of a crutch.It's a good idea for PVE and sPvP, but not for WvW.... Also nothing worse than fighting 1v2/3 and downing 1 guy for him to be insta res'd and you're left there holding your dck which is now limp cause you have all of your skills on cooldown. But wait, there's more! The guy you downed can still damage you, a lot of the time for more than when he was alive and standing.The same situation happens quite often in PvP and yet you say that down state is just fine in that environment. Sounds less like an issue with downed state to me, more like an issue with builds... and with an expectation that you should be able to win grossly outnumbered. If the players are even remotely close in skill (not equal, you just need to not be a total bot), you won't be killing them 1v3 or 10v40, and this change will still result in you losing battles.

Somehow I cast serious doubt on all these claims that opponents are so much worse than these pro players, and yet said player who is far more skilled can't secure a single kill, or use the downed player as an advantage. Especially given all the builds quite capable of 1vX. Maybe that's just the crux of the issue. Maybe there's no way to succeed in true parity across skill levels in a game that is notoriously known as BUILD WARS.

Yeah, in sPvP it's fine, cause in a case of 1v3 there isn't an option of more than 2 extra players jumping in your fights as is in WvW where you can go from a "fair" 1v3 vs baddies to a 1v6-7 after you spend so much time trying to finish off downies that get ressed over and over again, and also there's no NPCs on capture points that also deal dmg and cc you as well. So no, downed state in WvW is not fine, it's a crutch plain and simple.I find it hilarious that you try to defend it, are you really that oblivious to how un-fun downed state has been in WvW?I wonder why Anet adds such events then... I wonder why Anet added stomp to mounts when they were introduced. And I wonder how many tears were directed at Anet so they finally folded and removed that feature.When you're down, you're down - you lost, it's over, that's how it should be.

Removing downed state as it is right now, or at least nerfing it to baseline 10k hp and no skills you can use is how you start REAL balance. People won't run as much in full glass anymore and the thrill of when you're down = you lost, would benefit WvW and perhaps also encourage sub par players to getting better and not relying so much on getting carried by others when they go down.

You mean zerg classes won't run glass as often. Rangers and thieves will still run glass and will suddenly be much more powerful than before. There will be no balance unless Anet make huge changes.

[Teratus.2859]

I'd much rather deal with boon ball squads than constantly have to deal with gankers and one shot troll builds.

I agree downstate in it's current form could use some work in WvW (Personally I think Anet should cap your downed penalty so you only get downstate once per battle) but getting rid of it entirely would be so much worse for the game.I don't mind the occasional No Downstate weekends or weeks but if the change became permanent I and many others would never go to WvW again.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Luclinraider.2317 said:All of the esports scene and the competitive pro's from WoW arena who gave GW2 a go at launch all said down state needs to be removed in order for GW2 pvp to be competitive or move forward.Anet refused to admit their mistakes and sealed GW2 fate with regard to PvP.Even 8 years laters I still see the weekly post begging for downed state to be removed from WvW and SPvP....but the PvP community is long gone and all that's left are bots and new players who leave after a month lol.Really sad because the games combat is fantastic, but their failure to admit their mistakes and remove downed state and rally from PvP has been the biggest thing working against pvp from the start.Sucks when you're your own greatest enemy lol.

Competitive Pro's from WoW. You are funny.

You realize that even WoW's competitive scene always was and has been minuscule, when compared to the games player base, right? For a game with at it's peak over 12 million players, the numbers their PvP branch got where terrible. WoW never broke the top 200 reward money wise, those places go to non MMO esports games exclusively.

We can pretend that downstate is to blame, or face reality and accept 1 simple fact: there has not ever been a single successful MMORPG with a huge esports scene, and that has hardly to do with downstate or not and much more with the incompatible designs required to make a game successful in either. Might there ever be a successful esports MMORPG? Sure, maybe some developer will find the magic formula for it, but if and when they do, it will be something completely different from what we have seen so far.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

@"Luclinraider.2317" said:All of the esports scene and the competitive pro's from WoW arena who gave GW2 a go at launch all said down state needs to be removed in order for GW2 pvp to be competitive or move forward.Anet refused to admit their mistakes and sealed GW2 fate with regard to PvP.Even 8 years laters I still see the weekly post begging for downed state to be removed from WvW and SPvP....but the PvP community is long gone and all that's left are bots and new players who leave after a month lol.Really sad because the games combat is fantastic, but their failure to admit their mistakes and remove downed state and rally from PvP has been the biggest thing working against pvp from the start.Sucks when you're your own greatest enemy lol.

Ah yes, pro in wood fighting? Did they remove the possibility of making macro's in WoW yet?I haven't seen any posts "begging for downed state to be removed" before event happened.The biggest mistake that A-net has made that sealed e-sport was HoT and it's elite specializations, which were broken af compared to core, it's like jumping out from your swimming pool at your home into pacific ocean.Another problem was/is visual clutter on screen that some classes produce/d and also combat is far too chaotic and confusing(too much stuff).Downed state still adds depth to combat, you like it or not. People that cry about not being able to 1v10 should think and ask themselves "Why I even attack enemy group when I'm alone? Why should I win it in the first place?". The moment you think that you can go all-in into this kind of fights and get away from them/get some kills is the moment that shows how arrogant and cocky players have become because of bad balance(aka broken builds allowing such cheese).It's YOU that goes WILLINGLY into such fights and expect win, stop blaming it on mechanic, change your mentality.Also, stop comparing GW2 to WoW. WoW was once "great game", because it was first of it's kind and that's it, currently WoW is just an empty corpse that is being kept alive by fans that still are willing to pay for very poor product. The only thing that could WoW offer is lore, which is already so-so at most, everything else is just a joke compared to GW2, ESO(you could even say that it's WoW, but much better), FFXIV, BDO and many others.

[Junkpile.7439]

Maybe add new game mode without downed state. Players who like lame downed state could keep playing wvw.

[nthmetal.9652]

If your enemies know how to pull and burstdamage properly, it's like there is no downstate anyways, so I'm against that suggestion.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:And this is why Battle Maul used to finish downs.

Anet, bring back Battle Maul finish and ignore the care bears.

No thanks, battle maul finishing downs made being outnumbered even worse than downed state does. My god, that made roaming completely unfun.

Tbh tho, I can't really fault a zergling replying to this saying "just don't go down then" considering that's basically what roamers are saying to zerglings regarding no downed state.

If they changed down state so you get one res per 60s and if you go down again you skip downed state and die, that would be fair enough of a middle ground for me I think.

[ledernierrempart.6871]

@"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:Ah yes, pro in wood fighting? Did they remove the possibility of making macro's in WoW yet?I haven't seen any posts "begging for downed state to be removed" before event happened.The biggest mistake that A-net has made that sealed e-sport was HoT and it's elite specializations, which were broken af compared to core, it's like jumping out from your swimming pool at your home into pacific ocean.Another problem was/is visual clutter on screen that some classes produce/d and also combat is far too chaotic and confusing(too much stuff).Downed state still adds depth to combat, you like it or not. People that cry about not being able to 1v10 should think and ask themselves "Why I even attack enemy group when I'm alone? Why should I win it in the first place?". The moment you think that you can go all-in into this kind of fights and get away from them/get some kills is the moment that shows how arrogant and cocky players have become because of bad balance(aka broken builds allowing such cheese).It's YOU that goes WILLINGLY into such fights and expect win, stop blaming it on mechanic, change your mentality.Also, stop comparing GW2 to WoW. WoW was once "great game", because it was first of it's kind and that's it, currently WoW is just an empty corpse that is being kept alive by fans that still are willing to pay for very poor product. The only thing that could WoW offer is lore, which is already so-so at most, everything else is just a joke compared to GW2, ESO(you could even say that it's WoW, but much better), FFXIV, BDO and many others.

no but he may be right afterall. i do find downstate adds some dpeth in pvp as it is wsmall scale and always the same number of players on each side. getting downed can prevent a point or objective capture.but there is several problems to it that never got resolved completely.downstate on some class are way better than others. bunker builds was even more a thing back then and with HOT than now. downing one bunker was time consuming and him getting revived back because of rally bot was just plain unfun.in every competitive game with a downstate mechanic, the downed player can move toward help but can't use skills and CANT HEAL HIMSELFgw2 is the only game i know with a downsate that can revive itself, dps, use CC. and worst, with a rally bot PvE mechanic. helps when facing mobs that downed you. frustrating in PvP. totally unfair in WvW.

when HOT launched arenanet tried to force e sport on gw2. it didn't go well and it died.

I haven't seen any posts "begging for downed state to be removed" before event happened.

2 reasons, the last big (nerf) balance changes WvW got made dealing with downed even more problematic than it was before.and with the no downstate event we just realised that the game would have been so much better without it (or with a different version of it.)

i am sure there was similar posts on the forum when the first no downstate event came out. but this time the recent WvW balance changes pushed more players toward the no downsate preference.

It's YOU that goes WILLINGLY into such fights and expect win, stop blaming it on mechanic, change your mentality.

thats how we like to play. hunt players and challenge ourselves in a mass PvP environment. but it is hard when the mechanic themselves are agianst you and push you to play with numbers instead of skill.yes, skill. overcoming difficulty, learning how to master a build, play smart to counter your enemy... but this doesn't matter if you can easily destroy your enemy just by being more numerous. with more AOE and buff than them. the game does not push you to improve but to either find the most cheesy/op build possible to get carried by it or to get in a big group and turn off your brain.

but you know, skill isn't just being better at button smashing at the right moment. it is also map awarness, build mastering, build creation (simply copying builds from metabattle is lazy.), counter, placement.sadly some builds out there are either spam all the buttons (elem cough cough..) or apply all possible buffs and hit 2 with longbow (DH cough cough, soulbeast coughcough...) thus beign skilled often means being able to abuse a cheesy build to win instead of winning a balanced fight( like 1v1 with both playing none bunker core warriors.)

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@Seryi.7936 said:Somehow I cast serious doubt on all these claims that opponents are so much worse than these pro players, and yet said player who is far more skilled can't secure a single kill, or use the downed player as an advantage. Especially given all the builds quite capable of 1vX. Maybe that's just the crux of the issue. Maybe there's no way to succeed in true parity across skill levels in a game that is notoriously known as BUILD WARS.

Exactly. I am average, at best. Love me some WvW but I am not kidding myself about my skill. But even I know how to confirm my kills/stomps.

@"serialkicker.5274" said:I'm not a WvWer, but what about a mechanic where if you get downed once and rezzed, a cooldown of one minute or whatever kicks in and if you get downed in that time again, you instantly die? Kinda middle ground I suppose.

It's already in there. The problem is it currently takes 4 downs in one minute to trigger it. That would be one of the EASIEST fixes for WvW, as it's just tweaking a number.

@"nthmetal.9652" said:If your enemies know how to pull and burstdamage properly, it's like there is no downstate anyways, so I'm against that suggestion.

And in the current "Firebranded Scourgelands" meta, that already happens most of the time anyway.

I swear all these 'remove downstate' requests are Zerker Build Theives, Eles, Warriors, and Rangers from PvE just looking to not have to get "gasp" a second set of armor for a different mode.

[nthmetal.9652]

@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:Tbh tho, I can't really fault a zergling replying to this saying "just don't go down then" considering that's basically what roamers are saying to zerglings regarding no downed state.

If they changed down state so you get one res per 60s and if you go down again you skip downed state and die, that would be fair enough of a middle ground for me I think.

Lol. Well, I am against custom-tailoring solutions for a game mode designed for mass-group battles, that cater to a subgroup. If anything, mechanics overall need to be abalyzed and revised so that the numbers game isn't as important anymore.Also, if downstate is altered, good luck adapting the profession traits and skills for WvW. That will be costly. Or the solution will be very half-assed.What would need to happen is, that all traits and skills that cater to downstate need to be reworked. Be it sigils, illusion of life, etc. There are quite some traits for warrior, that come to mind.And of course it still needs to work for PvE; sounds like a massive split. Yeah. No.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:And this is why Battle Maul used to finish downs.

Anet, bring back Battle Maul finish and ignore the care bears.

No thanks, battle maul finishing downs made being outnumbered even worse than downed state does. My god, that made roaming completely unfun.

Tbh tho, I can't really fault a zergling replying to this saying "just don't go down then" considering that's basically what roamers are saying to zerglings regarding no downed state.

If they changed down state so you get one res per 60s and if you go down again you skip downed state and die, that would be fair enough of a middle ground for me I think.

I would say that the middle ground is one res from downstate per 60s, after that its straight to defeated. I would say that to compensate they'd have to extend the invulnerability period a little bit. Res skills get thrown around and you may not be ready to react the moment you rally and could almost immediately go into defeated without a small bump in the invulnerability window.

[Sobx.1758]

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Yup! We're back to boon-ball squads...

Then fix that?

D:

Yes, by removing downstate :)

[Sobx.1758]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:And this is why Battle Maul used to finish downs.

Anet, bring back Battle Maul finish and ignore the care bears.

No thanks, battle maul finishing downs made being outnumbered even worse than downed state does. My god, that made roaming completely unfun.

Sure as hell helped with zergs though, and created a pseudo no downstate. Can't complain about maul finish and want no downstate at the same time mate.

...you kind of can though. Downstate helps the outnumbering side (more). The same outnumbering side can relegate additional players to mount stomp. I get what you're aiming for here ("you complain about the downstate, so keep maul finishers to get rid of downstate"), but pretty sure in reality both of these just additionally help outnumbering side more than it does the outnumbered one.

(yay, same thread every month! :D )