NO Downstate should STAY permanently. - [Merged]

[Widmo.3186]

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Seryi.7936 said:

@"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:You serious? You can't think WHY this would not be as big of a problem in PvP? Could it be because PvP is contained to 5v5 people in a match? Could it be the lack of minstrel revive bots? I wonder /sSounds to me like an issue with those overperforming builds and certain stat combinations, then, not an issue with down state... which has been part of the design doc of the game since well before the first beta tests and which everyone has either accepted or, better, learned to use to their advantage. If people are

so

above the skill level of these people getting downed constantly, they can secure the kill or use the downed body to their benefit by punishing revive attempts. Especially if your build is optimized for 1vX and you know how to play.

And if you're dealing with more numbers than just 5 (which you won't win against if they're even remotely near your skill level... not even equal, just not asleep at the keyboard), then why do you believe you deserve to win in that encounter? Like it or not, downed state is a part of the dynamics and flow of the game's combat, and has been designed as such since the beginning. And like it or not, in a game mode such as WvW, there is always a point when numbers trump individual skill; the game mode will never achieve complete parity between skill levels, builds, or server populations. Nor should it, since many of the proposed "solutions" to these issues will simply result in even more issues than they fix.

I'm very glad people like you are not a game designer, nor in charge of any balance passes, if your suggestions are anything to go by.

just a little reminder. before, when HOT got released. they got rid of one particular mechanic that started to make downstate problematic.=> celerity would speed up stomps. NOT ANYMORE. (slowness did decrease stomp speed too which made rev op on the ground. thats why they scrapped this mechanic............................)for the sake of consistency, they also removed lots of indepth mechanic such as cipple reducing dash range and swiftness increasing them.same for bloc skill duration (but not for all skills mind you. scrapper hammer bloc still get influenced by celerity, and it's a GOOD thing.)but they still didn't addressed downstate consistency itself.

Wow, hey folks, look, someone that ACTUALLY played the game, noticed whats going on and made some thoughts. Better make screenshots, its like a rare pokemon, he might be gone soon for good.

[Jaruselka.5943]

@Threather.9354 said:Also some downstate autoattacks do little too much damage while others feel like they do nothing.

cough cough engi cough

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@Shiyo.3578 said:Downing the same 5 people 3v8 multiple times then eventually running out of cds and having to retreat, with zero kills to show for it, feels pretty bad.

I don't think downstate belongs in WvW.

Could you may be try a little harder?

[Fueki.4753]

@Ubi.4136 said:As much as a lot of us would like to see downstate removed

I'm pretty sure you are just few handful of people repeating themselves over and over.Your numbers probably amount to next to nothing compared to the entire playerbase.

And you people nearly always forget to suggest nerfs to finishing, in order to make up for your suggested nerfs to revives.

[Seryi.7936]

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:downstate IS A PVE mechanic. ported to pvp and wvw as a core feature of the game when it should only be a helping tool for pve players.right, it give more depth to PvP but also make bunker builds even more cancerous.It sounds like you got outskilled.

And no, Downed State has been a core mechanic of the entire game's combat flow since the beginning... regardless of game mode. As was stated many, many times before release, during beta tests, etc.

@Widmo.3186 said:PS: Have you tried doing 1vX or even like 3v3 fights or something during downstate week? Did you notice how dynamic this game gets when you dont have to care about bunch of lying (half)corpses?Yes, I have, on each No Downstate Week. It made the combat more fast paced, it didn't necessarily increase the quality of fights... and you traded some overperforming builds for others.

It isn't going away. The best thing they could do is tweak it, such as reducing how many times players can be resurrected in a short period. But no matter how many times you post about how it makes the game tangibly worse, has no place in PvP/WvW, etcetera... ArenaNet is the one with the data. For years, that data has said that downed state is integral to the balance and flow of combat, and here to stay. More, making the same thread over and over again on the forums doesn't change the fact the majority of players couldn't care less.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

I prefer having downed state.

/notsigned.

[ArchonWing.9480]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@"ArchonWing.9480" said:Also on a side note Elixir S+superspeed is probably enough on its own to get out of a jam, but U usually > C. I would not rely on C to save my life since a CC is gg but you can still use cleansing sigils, while there is no sigil that gives stab or stunbreak. Ofc I run Bulwark because I am too lazy to switch vs bigger group, but meh; won't tell people how to play their toons. I'd rather nitpick pointless whatifs in videos instead.

Elixir U is like, mandatory in every build for me now. It's one of those skills that has become so stacked it can work with pretty much any stat/trait alignment and still be extremely beneficial to have. Spectral Walk, "Shake It Off!" and Shadow Step are some of the other skills in the game that are just so versatile and stacked with strong effects that they become oppressive to other skills by almost always being a better choice.

Also, I think Elixir C is a good choice in smaller fights but becomes worse the larger the scale of the fight because like you said, all it takes is one CC and it's gg.

This is a different topic to the thread subject entirely, but what ever.

Well, C is useful vs immobolize spam because it converts into resistance but I think you should still pack stability somewhere else regardless. Contemplation of Purity from the Guardian is very good for similar reasons though it's also a stunbreak. I generally consider these things when running troll builds like speed rune guardian or stealth gyro/superspeed scrapper. xD

And yea this is a little off topic but ya know, probably more productive then internet psychoanalysis.

[Riba.3271]

@Doug.4930 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@Threather.9354 said:Terrible idea, downstate is perfectly fine, maybe they could tune down ress speed a tiny bit to make ress skills like IoL and banner more dominant.

Don't play a game for rewards.

On summits stream it was funny how he thought downstate was stupid and didn't even try to rally/heal himself up whenever it happened. This is how I imagine you no downstate lovers, you give up already before you're actually dead. If your issue is that enemy resses downs you make too easy, then ask for ress speed nerfs, not removal of downstate. Also some downstate autoattacks do little too much damage while others feel like they do nothing.

Yes but actually no. Because us no downstate lovers are usually in downstate getting cleaved by a group 2-3 times our size. Which is one of the biggest problems with downstate. If you go into downstate against a larger group GG you're dead 99% of the time. If you go into downstate while fighting for the larger group then GG you get revived 99% of the time.

Thats the problem.Which still indicate two things:

1) It is a problem with numbers, which will always be there regardless of downed state or no. If you keep fighting a group 2-3 times your size and dont win, you need more people.

Yes exactly the group 2-3 times bigger should win the fight without downstate. Downstate just acts as another boon for the larger group while being a hindrance to the smaller. Why should the larger group get more of an advantage on top of the already present numbers advantage?

As much as I would like downstate deleted I could be open to compromise such as some of the changes you suggested.

Its still hindrance for bigger group having to ress their players, especially if fully dead. Everyone goes down sometimes,especially with this stealth guild objective camping meta.. They already catered to the unadapting big crybabies with stupid balance changes such as claim buff, making siege obsolete and several times faster upgrade times and look at state of WvW rn: All skilled players, guilds and commanders that played more than a few hours a day are long gone. Imagine catering to people that just want to have easy time and just wanna have gank people so they have to spend 15 min to get back from walls you closed before going for ruining someone elses fun.

There are other balance changes that need to be done, downstate is not the reason you're not having fun, its the fact that every server is reliant on those 1-2 popular commanders for numbers to have social fun because frankly the enjoyable gameplay is gone in both macro and micro sense. The terrible balance also reduces amount of small groups and solo roamers that you could have equally numbered fights against instead of crying for balance where you can still do something to groups 2-3 times bigger than you.

WvW doesn't need to be dumbed done anymore, it is already at terrible state, there is no logic behind why every objective requires same amount of dolyaks other than some 30 sec learning comfort, existance of siege that blocks every other siege and why balance needed to be changed so defenders win any insuing fight while attackers have to run in circles openfield waiting for them to come out. And yes, I know the people on strong servers are smirking reading this comment but its just reality for equally strong groups, just look at your guild raids and how they instantly hop map as soon as a group that give them a decent fight focuses on defending their objectives

What I am saying is that they should just fix the gamemode so theres more groups to fight and you don't have to keep bashing your head to that only massive enemy group that just happened to log in and asking for balance to complement that.

Anet, please stop balancing the combat around people that are constantly outnumbered. Make the gamemode fun between equally numbered groups again. Fix siege vs siege balance close to pre-HoT state so these guys that are outnumbered can slow down and sometimes repel the bigger groups.

[Justine.6351]

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:Nice. I'd do this, and sit in towers to collect those sweet reward tracks, and pips. Peek over the wall, repair it, and sit in smc s'more for some RP with the Lord Commander.

D:

And this is EXACTLY what would happen.

Not everyone who would do this would be willing to sit in towers... More people than you realize would jump on this given the opportunity. For solo roaming its already this scenario anyhow since as doug pointed out, being in downed state against more players is a delayed death sentence. It would give them something and if enough people started rolling this way it could become a standard. And the training wheels would still be there for people who need the downed state like new players or players who just arn't the greatest.

I would actually just make the buff 100% across the board on buffing,100% mf100% wvw exp100% reward track+10 pipsDouble champ bagsand makes it for the week.

People talk about wanting more rewards in wvw, ok then give them hardmode wvw as an option.

[nthmetal.9652]

@"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:You serious? You can't think WHY this would not be as big of a problem in PvP? Could it be because PvP is contained to 5v5 people in a match? Could it be the lack of minstrel revive bots? I wonder /s

You seem to be under the misconception, that minstrel support in mass-group combat is so that you have "revive bots". This is not the case, and maybe as a PvP player, which I must assume you are, you are not aware of the effect of greater numbers and the imbalance between offense and defense in the game, as this imbalance does not exist / exist as strongly in a 5 vs 5 match.

Attacks in GW2 stack indefinitely for all practical purposes. It does not matter, how many players target a single target, all their attacks will have an effect on that target. Damaging conditions stack indefinitely.Cleanses help, but are typically on a much much higher cooldown than the abilities to dish out damaging conditions. Helpful boons have a limit to which they can be stacked, typically 1 (and stack duration) or 25. Or they cannot be stacked at all, like superspeed.Just imagine you could not stack burn. What would happen to this game?Just imagine only a certain amount of direct damage attacks could affect a specific target in a given period of time. Just imagine only 5 or 10 attacks could, and anyone else, who would also target the same target would simply get no effect at all. Just imagine what would happen.

Stuns and immbolization can be chained to achieve a total lockdown, over quite a long number of seconds. Way more than the few seconds of stability and invulnerability you can get. I have seen immoilizations, that were chained together so nicely, that players can't move for well over 10 seconds. I have seen stuns and dazed, that lock out players for well over 10 seconds from firing skills. These thing happen in mass combat, when things go awry.

That is the reason why you take minstrel. Not for the situation when things work out perfectly, then you can survive ez on full zerker, but for the moments, when things do not work out.

And since in 5 vs 5 you will not encounter situations, where more than 5 attacks hit one target at the very same moment, you will not encounter the same kind of problems as in mass battle combat. You will very rarely even encounter situations where 5 enemy players group up on one target!So you will not encounter the same kind of solution. It is not "minstrel revive bots", it is the effects of the underlying mechanics, which play out very differently in 5 vs 5 than in the 20 vs 20 or even more, which are common in WvW.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

@nthmetal.9652 said:

@"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:You serious? You can't think WHY this would not be as big of a problem in PvP? Could it be because PvP is contained to 5v5 people in a match? Could it be the lack of minstrel revive bots? I wonder /s

You seem to be under the misconception, that minstrel support in mass-group combat is so that you have "revive bots". This is not the case, and maybe as a PvP player, which I must assume you are, you are not aware of the effect of greater numbers and the imbalance between offense and defense in the game, as this imbalance does not exist / exist as strongly in a 5 vs 5 match.

Attacks in GW2 stack indefinitely for all practical purposes. It does not matter, how many players target a single target, all their attacks will have an effect on that target. Damaging conditions stack indefinitely.Cleanses help, but are typically on a much much higher cooldown than the abilities to dish out damaging conditions. Helpful boons have a limit to which they can be stacked, typically 1 (and stack duration) or 25. Or they cannot be stacked at all, like superspeed.Just imagine you could not stack burn. What would happen to this game?Just imagine only a certain amount of direct damage attacks could affect a specific target in a given period of time. Just imagine only 5 or 10 attacks could, and anyone else, who would also target the same target would simply get no effect at all. Just imagine what would happen.

Stuns and immbolization can be chained to achieve a total lockdown, over quite a long number of seconds. Way more than the few seconds of stability and invulnerability you can get. I have seen immoilizations, that were chained together so nicely, that players can't move for well over 10 seconds. I have seen stuns and dazed, that lock out players for well over 10 seconds from firing skills. These thing happen in mass combat, when things go awry.

That is the reason why you take minstrel. Not for the situation when things work out perfectly, then you can survive ez on full zerker, but for the moments, when things do not work out.

And since in 5 vs 5 you will not encounter situations, where more than 5 attacks hit one target at the very same moment, you will not encounter the same kind of problems as in mass battle combat. You will very rarely even encounter situations where 5 enemy players group up on one target!So you will not encounter the same kind of solution. It is not "minstrel revive bots", it is the effects of the underlying mechanics, which play out very differently in 5 vs 5 than in the 20 vs 20 or even more, which are common in WvW.

If you actually believe any of that, then why are 4/6 meta builds minstrel now and never before since minstrel existed. Everything you said applies to WVW since forever. I never even said people went minstrel specifically to revive? But surely it's obvious to everyone that a build with over 3k armor and heals/cleanses is better at reviving than a power or condition build.

People go minstrel because going power is dead for most classes (part of the problem is NOT ENOUGH CLEAVE TO DEAL WITH DOWNS unless you're a reaper) and going condition is countered by minstrel builds.

[nthmetal.9652]

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:People go minstrel because going power is dead for most classes (part of the problem is NOT ENOUGH CLEAVE TO DEAL WITH DOWNS unless you're a reaper) and going condition is countered by minstrel builds.

Except that isn't true at all. The problem isn't that there is not enough Power builds going on in WvW. The reason we have setups, where parties are 3/5 support and 2/5 damage (which usually is power, too, not condi) is that otherwise the power spikes of the opposition kill you instantly.

The effect of power is not too low, I can assure you.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

@nthmetal.9652 said:

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:People go minstrel because going power is dead for most classes (part of the problem is NOT ENOUGH CLEAVE TO DEAL WITH DOWNS unless you're a reaper) and going condition is countered by minstrel builds.

Except that isn't true at all. The problem isn't that there is not enough Power builds going on in WvW. The reason we have setups, where parties are 3/5 support and 2/5 damage (which usually is power, too, not condi) is that otherwise the power spikes of the opposition kill you instantly.

The effect of power is not too low, I can assure you.

Right, because when something is shaved 30-40% no one notices any changes I guess, still effective! /s. I'll tell you something, power was FAR more effective in 2016 to early 2020 and we did not see this level of minstrel supports out there. Please explain? OP power damage = everyone goes minstrel in your world right?

[God.2708]

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@nthmetal.9652 said:

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:People go minstrel because going power is dead for most classes (part of the problem is NOT ENOUGH CLEAVE TO DEAL WITH DOWNS unless you're a reaper) and going condition is countered by minstrel builds.

Except that isn't true at all. The problem isn't that there is not enough Power builds going on in WvW. The reason we have setups, where parties are 3/5 support and 2/5 damage (which usually is power, too, not condi) is that otherwise the power spikes of the opposition kill you instantly.

The effect of power is not too low, I can assure you.

Right, because when something is shaved 30-40% no one notices any changes I guess, still effective! /s. I'll tell you something, power was FAR more effective in 2016 to early 2020 and we did not see this level of minstrel supports out there. Please explain? OP power damage = everyone goes minstrel in your world right?

OP power damage = fewer minstrel classes because going minstrel is pointless since the damage overwhelms the support anyway. Then you reduce damage and people add minstrel classes so players survive longer up to the point damage is reduced so much that you have to take away minstrel classes in order to actually kill anyone (and instead add in heal/damage hybrids). We are still on the left side of the bell curve of damage being insane <-> nonexistent.

[Critical Delay.9184]

Agreed. No down state was pretty nice to have, and it was fun while it lasted. Hope they decide to implement it as a permanent feature in the future.

[Sugar Min.5834]

Ok if ANet wants to remove no-down state, give us an alternative to use our finisher skills other than just pvp. And maybe give more professions an instant revive skill on allies.

[Luclinraider.2317]

@diomache.9246 said:

@Luclinraider.2317 said:All of the esports scene and the competitive pro's from WoW arena who gave GW2 a go at launch all said down state needs to be removed in order for GW2 pvp to be competitive or move forward.Anet refused to admit their mistakes and sealed GW2 fate with regard to PvP.Even 8 years laters I still see the weekly post begging for downed state to be removed from WvW and SPvP....but the PvP community is long gone and all that's left are bots and new players who leave after a month lol.Really sad because the games combat is fantastic, but their failure to admit their mistakes and remove downed state and rally from PvP has been the biggest thing working against pvp from the start.Sucks when you're your own greatest enemy lol.

WoW Arena was never competitive and neither balanced and isn't even comparable to GW2 PvP. Why the heck would someone from another game that doesn't even play it should be listened to?

I'm not sure why you assume I don't play GW2 just because I also play WoW.....oh...and I also play FF14, BDO, EQ1, EQ2 and am on and off with a ton of other non MMO games like BF1, LoL, Tarkov etc....

Was there a law passed that we can only play one game? I must have missed the memo lol.

[Bristingr.5034]

I absolutely HATE no downed state week in WvW. I literally don't bother playing the mode/game when it's in effect. If it was permanent, I'd leave WvW completely.

[urd.8306]

@"Luclinraider.2317" said:>Was there a law passed that we can only play one game? I must have missed the memo lol.

Maybe you just stop trying to argue over "but other pros think" in the near future because they have no clue about GW2 at all and so the whole argument is invalid.

[Naxos.2503]

Just pointing that out : If you remove downstate, what you'll create is a super boonball meta. Where essentially zergs will focus on heals and retal, and let their opponent kill themselves. I dont see how this breaks boonball at all.

[ledernierrempart.6871]

@Naxos.2503 said:Just pointing that out : If you remove downstate, what you'll create is a super boonball meta. Where essentially zergs will focus on heals and retal, and let their opponent kill themselves. I dont see how this breaks boonball at all.

wait, isn't it already the case?

[Naxos.2503]

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:Just pointing that out : If you remove downstate, what you'll create is a super boonball meta. Where essentially zergs will focus on heals and retal, and let their opponent kill themselves. I dont see how this breaks boonball at all.

wait, isn't it already the case?

Yes. I dont see a reason to make this worse.

[Luclinraider.2317]

@diomache.9246 said:

@"Luclinraider.2317" said:>Was there a law passed that we can only play one game? I must have missed the memo lol.

Maybe you just stop trying to argue over "but other pros think" in the near future because they have no clue about GW2 at all and so the whole argument is invalid.

However, companies do take what professional gamers and streamers say into consideration in order to make their game better.Even the GW2 pros when they were trying to build an esports scene were telling them things like the builds are too tanky, and multiple GW2 pro's stated that downed state hurts competitive PvP due to rally. Instead Anet just did what they pleased and look what happened, their esports scene died.

Meanwhile there are games like WoW which has had the biggest competitive scene in MMO's for around 10 years now and is still going strong with their Arena scene.

This doesn't mean WoW's arena is perfect. But they have kept it alive by listening to players. And here we are...stuck with Anet...who just does what they please, and then sits there with a shocked pikachu face every time their ideas go up in smoke over and over again. What a shock!

[Dawdler.8521]

@Luclinraider.2317 said:This doesn't mean WoW's arena is perfect.You're right, it doesnt have downedstate.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

@Naxos.2503 said:

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:Just pointing that out : If you remove downstate, what you'll create is a super boonball meta. Where essentially zergs will focus on heals and retal, and let their opponent kill themselves. I dont see how this breaks boonball at all.

wait, isn't it already the case?

Yes. I dont see a reason to make this worse.

It's just both ways with you people lol. No down state makes stealth burst classes OP but we'll also somehow get a more bunker meta! Please, during no down state comped zergs were constantly clouded to death by pugs so I don't know where this theory comes from.

More bunker boonball than we have now is literally impossible unless we'll get minstrel revs and necros too.