Condi is overtuned in smal scale and at same time usless in zergs.

[Arheundel.6451]

Again the same thread.....

A ) Skilled player is full power burst and relies on dodge/mind games/positioning to win

B ) Unskilled player is full condition, full trailblazer or dire, relies on stats and broken mechanics to win fights he would normally lose

/thread

[Dawdler.8521]

@Arheundel.6451 said:Again the same thread.....

A ) Skilled player is full power burst and relies on dodge/mind games/positioning to win

B ) Unskilled player is full condition, full trailblazer or dire, relies on stats and broken mechanics to win fights he would normally lose

/threadUnskilled player is supposed to always roll over and die while the skilled player place arrowcarts over him for the lolz because unskilled players arent allowed to find ways to kill skilled players.

I assume that's what you're trying to say.

[hobotnicax.7918]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:Video shows how broken Elixir S is and has been carrying engies for years. You should had lost the fight, you got outplayed, yet you were carried by one broken af skill.So are you saying... I'm carried by skills giving me sustain even against other sustain condi build? The chock! The horror! Wait that's exactly what I've been saying condi builds need to compete. Got to love people coming into a thread and attacking a video instead of the argument.

Whatever floats your boat. Any type of extreme condi damage is for weak players. Elixir S is for extremely week players.

[Dawdler.8521]

@hobotnicax.7918 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:Video shows how broken Elixir S is and has been carrying engies for years. You should had lost the fight, you got outplayed, yet you were carried by one broken af skill.So are you saying... I'm carried by skills giving me sustain even against other sustain condi build? The chock! The horror! Wait that's exactly what I've been saying condi builds need to compete. Got to love people coming into a thread and attacking a video instead of the argument.

Whatever floats your boat. Any type of extreme condi damage is for weak players. Elixir S is for extremely week players.And I acknowledge I am an extremely weak player.

So a power build would have done it better without needing elixir S?

Well then... case and point once again.

[TheOneWhoSighs.7513]

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@"TheOneWhoSighs.7513" said:

Pure zerkers hasn't been a WvW viable set in like, ever. Outside of meme builds or standing on castle walls and literally never fighting people on the ground. Well, I shouldn't say "ever". Before HoT there was a time where the common man ran zerkers. The game has power creeped far, far beyond that now.

Full (or mostly) zerk is perfectly fine on classes with medium or high health pool, especially if you pair it with something like dura rune, and far superior to full viper on most if not all classes.I hate fighting condi tanks as much as anyone else, but removing dire/tb would kill most condi builds and i don't think that's desireable (unless cleanses get nerfed heavily, but then it wouldn't be as easy to facetank condis and even more players would cry).Just walk away from builds that are not going to die even if they facetank skills, luckily most of them are not very good at chasing (and this applies to all overly tanky builds - power and condi).

Yeah, there's always exceptions. After I posted that, I was actually thinking about how I run full zerkers on my rev when I'm in the zerg. But that's in a zerg.

The only other classes I could think to safely run full zerk on are Engineer & Warrior. Though I feel like on both you're risking being blown the fuck up. Thankfully, you have panic buttons.

As for removing dire/tb, yeah no. I'm not a fan of removing stat sets. It's just silly. If you want to hit at the tankiness of conditions, introduce a 3rd stat it needs to maximize damage. Though in doing that you'd need to compensate condition builds by giving them some of their burstiness again. Kinda miss deathly chill being 3 stacks of bleeding.

As for the lack of viability of vipers, meh. What builds can even take advantage of both power & conditions. The only one I could think of is a mixed Mirage/Chrono. But Mirage having 1 dodge firmly puts that in a trashcan. As well, you'd still be choosing to spend clones on either your power or your condition shatter. Maybe you could do something with Reaper, but. Ehhh.

Viper is too conflicted at its core. Condition builds are so fundamentally different from power builds that there's very little overlap in abilities on most classes. And on the ones where there is overlap, it's either in zergs (where there's too much condition cleanse for it to make sense) or on builds that are so thoroughly nerfed only masochists still play them.

[Choppy.4183]

@"TheOneWhoSighs.7513" said:Pure zerkers hasn't been a WvW viable set in like, ever. Outside of meme builds or standing on castle walls and literally never fighting people on the ground. Well, I shouldn't say "ever". Before HoT there was a time where the common man ran zerkers. The game has power creeped far, far beyond that now.

This just isn't true. Both about how common it was for people to wear all zerk pre-HoT and about it being non-viable since. If someone can be successful running marauders, they can be successful running zerk. Which stat combo is optimal has always been about the build, the player, and the circumstances of the fight.

Similarly, the condi vs power gripes have been a common forum feature since launch. It used to be about how condi builds weren't viable at all in competitive play. Then condis got a bunch of love and the familiar "condi is way overtuned and hard carries bads" became the thing, coupled with the conceit that truly skilled players ran power (ideally zerk, but that eventually softened to include marauders as equal). That latter conceit was largely dropped except by diehard old timer power players, leaving just the "condi carries bads" with the acknowledgement that they have little value in larger fights.

Here's the thing though, it's mostly nonsense. It definitely doesn't feel good to lose a fight to someone who's clearly less skilled but seemingly carried by their build, but that's not unique to condi builds. Ranger lb, thief stealth/mobility, and lately nade engi (when in groups) all offer similar opportunities, and like condi builds, that doesn't mean people using those things are necessarily bad or carried by something broken.

The indignation of losing fights to someone perceived as being less skilled is the origin of every nerf thread since launch, whether based in fact or not. It's usually just an l2p issue though.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Gotejjeken.1267 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Condi need

time

to work. There is a reason dire/trailblazer is basicly the only viable condi option thats competetive with power.

You say that as if Trailblazer/Dire doesn't give you max/near max condition damage.

There's literally only 2 condition stats you care about. Condition damage & expertise. The fact that you only need 2 stats to maximize your damage in and of itself is why condi sets often end up tankier than power sets.Except, there is 4 stats you have to care about. In addition to that, you need vitality to survive enemy conditions and power damage because it take a

long

time for conditions to ramp up and tick (especially when the enemy keep cleansing). You also need toughness, because it take a

long

time for conditions to ramp up and tick (especially against someone that has roflstomp power damage and the capability of knocking 5000+ hp off on every other attack so you have to be on your toes).

That was the point.

Do you know why soldier gear isnt considered viable over marauder?

Basicly the same reason viper isnt considered viable over dire/trailblazer, just in reverse (and thats even with additional power damage on top of condition damage).

Would WvW be a happier place without 4 stat gear? For sure but you know what...

that include marauder

.

Just gonna go on a limb and say you've never met a good condi SB in WvW if you think conditions need time to work lol. I can build one, as many cleanses as one would want, stability, 20k HP, 3k toughness, nearly 2k condi damage....

I don't run this often because it's actually pretty broken. People complain about immobs but have no idea how fast you can die to condi spam. Not intelligent application mind you, just spamming condi with insane defensive stats.

I'm picking on SB here as I've mained ranger since launch, but condi spam applies to a LOT of other classes as well. Sure Rev and trap DH need to be 'close' so you can kind of kite them, but what about pistol thief? Running all that defensive nonsense and a ton of stealth / ports? Yeah that's working great.

Last time I met a condi ranger that wasnt a immobeast/immodruid (which usually doesnt build for that much damage, just slow sustain) was yesterday. He was trying to take a sentry. I lost 10% hp at most while he got roflstomped. The other 90%+ of rangers running about run power.

Last time I met a

good

(well at the very least dangerous) condi SB was probably almost a year ago.

You lost a lot more than 10% HP there. Also the SB overcommitted and used daggers, both of which makes it about 10X as harder to down you--you don't use daggers, you use axe for the chill. Anyway, now I know you're being facetious.

[TheOneWhoSighs.7513]

@Choppy.4183 said:

@"TheOneWhoSighs.7513" said:Pure zerkers hasn't been a WvW viable set in like, ever. Outside of meme builds or standing on castle walls and literally never fighting people on the ground. Well, I shouldn't say "ever". Before HoT there was a time where the common man ran zerkers. The game has power creeped far, far beyond that now.

This just isn't true. Both about how common it was for people to wear all zerk pre-HoT and about it being non-viable since. If someone can be successful running marauders, they can be successful running zerk. Which stat combo is optimal has always been about the build, the player, and the circumstances of the fight.

It was pretty damn common. Even front line guardian builds often ran full zerk. With maybe a mix of sentinels/soldiers if they weren't as confident in their ability to press buttons.That's not even touching front line warriors that used to be a common thing, running zerkers and smashing people with their hammers.

Now the core runs minstrels and took on a full support role.

Similarly, the condi vs power gripes have been a common forum feature since launch. It used to be about how condi builds weren't viable at all in competitive play. Then condis got a bunch of love and the familiar "condi is way overtuned and hard carries bads" became the thing, coupled with the conceit that truly skilled players ran power (ideally zerk, but that eventually softened to include marauders as equal). That latter conceit was largely dropped except by diehard old timer power players, leaving just the "condi carries bads" with the acknowledgement that they have little value in larger fights.Here's the thing though, it's mostly nonsense. It definitely doesn't feel good to lose a fight to someone who's clearly less skilled but seemingly carried by their build, but that's not unique to condi builds. Ranger lb, thief stealth/mobility, and lately nade engi (when in groups) all offer similar opportunities, and like condi builds, that doesn't mean people using those things are necessarily bad or carried by something broken.

The indignation of losing fights to someone perceived as being less skilled is the origin of every nerf thread since launch, whether based in fact or not. It's usually just an l2p issue though.

I don't think conditions carry bad players. I also don't agree that they're bad in larger scale. I mean, would you run a crap ton of condition cleanses if conditions didn't do shit in large scale combat? The answer is pretty firmly "no".

It's just that in an actually organized group, at this point in time in the game, you can out cleanse condition builds. But you still gotta bring the shit. The moment you don't bring a condition cleansing scrapper/tempest, is the moment conditions suddenly wreck your whole squad.

This is the thing about power creep. It's deceptive. We've all been pigeonholed into playing this game in a very specific manner in order to deal with the power creep, and people now think the power creep that is condition spam doesn't exist because we managed to find a way to metagame it.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Gotejjeken.1267 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Gotejjeken.1267 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Condi need

time

to work. There is a reason dire/trailblazer is basicly the only viable condi option thats competetive with power.

You say that as if Trailblazer/Dire doesn't give you max/near max condition damage.

There's literally only 2 condition stats you care about. Condition damage & expertise. The fact that you only need 2 stats to maximize your damage in and of itself is why condi sets often end up tankier than power sets.Except, there is 4 stats you have to care about. In addition to that, you need vitality to survive enemy conditions and power damage because it take a

long

time for conditions to ramp up and tick (especially when the enemy keep cleansing). You also need toughness, because it take a

long

time for conditions to ramp up and tick (especially against someone that has roflstomp power damage and the capability of knocking 5000+ hp off on every other attack so you have to be on your toes).

That was the point.

Do you know why soldier gear isnt considered viable over marauder?

Basicly the same reason viper isnt considered viable over dire/trailblazer, just in reverse (and thats even with additional power damage on top of condition damage).

Would WvW be a happier place without 4 stat gear? For sure but you know what...

that include marauder

.

Just gonna go on a limb and say you've never met a good condi SB in WvW if you think conditions need time to work lol. I can build one, as many cleanses as one would want, stability, 20k HP, 3k toughness, nearly 2k condi damage....

I don't run this often because it's actually pretty broken. People complain about immobs but have no idea how fast you can die to condi spam. Not intelligent application mind you, just spamming condi with insane defensive stats.

I'm picking on SB here as I've mained ranger since launch, but condi spam applies to a LOT of other classes as well. Sure Rev and trap DH need to be 'close' so you can kind of kite them, but what about pistol thief? Running all that defensive nonsense and a ton of stealth / ports? Yeah that's working great.

Last time I met a condi ranger that wasnt a immobeast/immodruid (which usually doesnt build for that much damage, just slow sustain) was yesterday. He was trying to take a sentry. I lost 10% hp at most while he got roflstomped. The other 90%+ of rangers running about run power.

Last time I met a

good

(well at the very least dangerous) condi SB was probably almost a year ago.

You lost a lot more than 10% HP there. Also the SB overcommitted and used daggers, both of which makes it about 10X as harder to down you--you don't use daggers, you use axe for the chill. Anyway, now I know you're being facetious.In case you missed it, I mentioned different fights. 10% had nothing to do with the clip.

[Quench.7091]

Condi does get weird. I'm most familiar with engineer, so I'll use that as an example. So much condi cleanse was added to this class, because originally we had to spec into alchemy and use a healing turret in every build. Now the engineer has options, because of the condi cleanse arms race. Several abilities have been upgraded and traits have been moved around.

Every time I give myself protection, I remove a condi. I get 1 protection every time I use my heal. I get protection through Reconstruction Field 3x in a pulse. I get protection when I'm disabled. I convert 2 condi every 1.75 minutes with the alchemy line. I have an elixir gun that cleanses up to 7 conditions off of other players and 2 conditions off of myself, depending on if I use the light field + blast combo. I have an optional gyro that removes conditions in a pulse around me. The support specs we can be uses a the med kit that pulses additional 4 condi cleanse.

There are options I don't see used, but are overusing condition removal. One removes 14 condition removal in an AoE and is only on core engineer via the Med Pack Drop toolbelt ability. The other is Elixir C, which comes with up to 15 condi conversions. These things strip so much condi that they're usually overkill and other cleanse choices are usually better.

You can't make a meta build for engineer without having some condi cleanse options in PvP. This class is addicted to it and has been for years. Experimenting outside of condi cleanse is a dangerous game most of the time, which stifles a lot of choices engineers could make. If condi cleanse was more optional, build diversity for this class would improve.

[Salt Mode.3780]

If condi required the same stats as power condi will always lose the matchup cuz power will always win. One is instant dmg vs rev up dmg. The only issue with condi is how absurd you can stack condis at such a quick rate, but nerfing it and making the initial stacks reduce wont solve the problem for condi users because with how many condi cleanse there is the game it will take forever to rev up the damage and by then it can just be cleansed off and you will need to stack again.

[Junkpile.7439]

To be fair enemies are often stupid in smallscale fights. Skilled but stupid. Funny how they winning a fight easily with their revenants and soulbests, but when one go down they try to ress while standing in wells and plaquelands. B)

[lare.5129]

yes, it is. You can you secret power biuld and be top 1.

[Arheundel.6451]

Power builds doing huge dmg, die as fast as they kill, risk=rewardCondi builds do now burst dmg but don't die nearly as fast as they can kill, can do multiple mistakes like eating burst several times and still come on top, zero risk=reward

[Voltekka.2375]

@hobotnicax.7918 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:Video shows how broken Elixir S is and has been carrying engies for years. You should had lost the fight, you got outplayed, yet you were carried by one broken af skill.So are you saying... I'm carried by skills giving me sustain even against other sustain condi build? The chock! The horror! Wait that's exactly what I've been saying condi builds need to compete. Got to love people coming into a thread and attacking a video instead of the argument.

Whatever floats your boat. Any type of extreme condi damage is for weak players. Elixir S is for extremely week players.

Cause, apparently, playing immortal boonbeast means skill.Riiiiight.

[hobotnicax.7918]

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:Video shows how broken Elixir S is and has been carrying engies for years. You should had lost the fight, you got outplayed, yet you were carried by one broken af skill.So are you saying... I'm carried by skills giving me sustain even against other sustain condi build? The chock! The horror! Wait that's exactly what I've been saying condi builds need to compete. Got to love people coming into a thread and attacking a video instead of the argument.

Whatever floats your boat. Any type of extreme condi damage is for weak players. Elixir S is for extremely week players.

Cause, apparently, playing immortal boonbeast means skill.Riiiiight.

You don't even know what a boonbeast is it seems. Try again, maybe next time.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

Sadly, nothing will be done with condies or any other unbalanced kitten in this game.If you have any achies to do, do it before EoD hits, after all, it won't be playable in the slightest.Current balance is "terrible" to write nicely, it's better than what was 2015-2020 and barely "acceptable", but still long way to fix it.

[Lighter.5631]

@Sansar.1302 said:Condi is overtuned in smal scale and at same time usless in zergs.How can this be fixed?

it's not condi overtuned, it's the stats trailblazer and dire, but as wvw shares gear with pve, you will never get rid of them.pve needs them for open world, because they can't balance class properly for open world, so they just make op stats so shift away the attention.

also, thief.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Junkpile.7439 said:Stealth is best way handle condis. Enemy can't see you so they can't apply condis.

just aoe the ground :bleep_bloop: AOE EVERYTHING!

:P

[Dawdler.8521]

@Lighter.5631 said:

@Sansar.1302 said:Condi is overtuned in smal scale and at same time usless in zergs.How can this be fixed?

it's not condi overtuned, it's the stats trailblazer and dire, but as wvw shares gear with pve, you will never get rid of them.pve needs them for open world, because they can't balance class properly for open world, so they just make op stats so shift away the attention.

also, thief.Still, I'd be more than happy to delete 4 stat trailblazers if you also delete minstrels, marauders and the rest of them.

Maybe that'll even improve zerging as a bonus.

[Lighter.5631]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@"Sansar.1302" said:Condi is overtuned in smal scale and at same time usless in zergs.How can this be fixed?

it's not condi overtuned, it's the stats trailblazer and dire, but as wvw shares gear with pve, you will never get rid of them.pve needs them for open world, because they can't balance class properly for open world, so they just make op stats so shift away the attention.

also, thief.Still, I'd be more than happy to delete 4 stat trailblazers if you also delete minstrels, marauders and the rest of them.

delete minstrel for? it is a support stat that does no damage, why would you bring this to the discussion of damage and sustain.you are just making excuses for nothing.

oh yea? you wanna delete marauder? that's not even comparable to dire and trailblazer, tell me what are you smoking.i'm fine tho, delete marauder, as long as you delete carrion and rabid.people mostly running marauder because noobs like you abuse dire and traiblazer or runs perma stealth thief anyway.

oh and also dire isnt 4 stats, i'm not sure why you keep mentioning "4 stats", dire isnt dodging the bullet.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Condi needs the condition damage coefficients reduced in PvP and WvW.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Lighter.5631 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@"Sansar.1302" said:Condi is overtuned in smal scale and at same time usless in zergs.How can this be fixed?

it's not condi overtuned, it's the stats trailblazer and dire, but as wvw shares gear with pve, you will never get rid of them.pve needs them for open world, because they can't balance class properly for open world, so they just make op stats so shift away the attention.

also, thief.Still, I'd be more than happy to delete 4 stat trailblazers if you also delete minstrels, marauders and the rest of them.

delete minstrel for? it is a support stat that does no damage, why would you bring this to the discussion of damage and sustain.you are just making excuses for nothing.

oh yea? you wanna delete marauder? that's not even comparable to dire and trailblazer, tell me what are you smoking.i'm fine tho, delete marauder, as long as you delete carrion and rabid.people mostly running marauder because noobs like you abuse dire and traiblazer or runs perma stealth thief anyway.

oh and also dire isnt 4 stats, i'm not sure why you keep mentioning "4 stats", dire isnt dodging the bullet.Which shows the bias since all 4 stat gear has been major powercreep since their introduction - minstrel

BY FAR

the worst offender.

people mostly running marauder because noobs like you abuse dire and traiblazerCounterpoint - people mostly run trailblazers because noobs like you abuse marauder.

[TheOneWhoSighs.7513]

4 stat gear isn't power creep. It's literally just streamlined stats. If they didn't release 4 stat gear, they would've just released more 3 stat gear to cover the gaps.They released 4 stat gear almost as a kindness, since it generally gets what you want as a player stat wise, without needing to min/max "Oh I need X on my helmet, Y on my shoulders, Z on my backpiece".

Y'all are literally arguing over 1 tree in a vast forest of things actually responsible for power creep. Like how conditions completely ignore your toughness stat, meaning the only ways for a player to mitigate condition damage is more vitality & more condition cleanses. Funnily this means swapping out pieces of marauder for Valkyrie or Barbarian would actually make you stronger against condition builds.

At any rate, the problems in the game don't boil down to "4 stat gear OP", it boils down to "Why did the devs think it was a good idea to give Necros even more corruption?" "Why did the devs make it so that every class spams out boons at an insane rate?" "Why did the devs make it so Mesmer gets to reuse its whole kit a 2nd time?" "Why is tempest able to become damn near unkillable while providing tons of cleanses and boons to allies?" "Who thought stealth gyro was a good idea?"

[Zyreva.1078]

@"TheOneWhoSighs.7513" said:4 stat gear isn't power creep. It's literally just streamlined stats. If they didn't release 4 stat gear, they would've just released more 3 stat gear to cover the gaps.They released 4 stat gear almost as a kindness, since it generally gets what you want as a player stat wise, without needing to min/max "Oh I need X on my helmet, Y on my shoulders, Z on my backpiece".

Actually it is more the opposite and min/maxing requires the use of 4-stat gear, because you will always end up with better overall stats than with 3-stat gear (unless it is a very specialized build, eg. full zerk for maximum dmg). It is not possible to replicate 4-stat gear by mixing 3-stat gear.

Y'all are literally arguing over 1 tree in a vast forest of things actually responsible for power creep. Like how conditions completely ignore your toughness stat, meaning the only ways for a player to mitigate condition damage is more vitality & more condition cleanses. Funnily this means swapping out pieces of marauder for Valkyrie or Barbarian would actually make you stronger against condition builds.

Condis ignore toughness, because toughness would be (even more) op otherwise. Vitality does not mitigate damage. It increases time to kill (regardless of incoming dmg type - it is not better vs condis than vs power), but - unlike toughness and healing power - does not increase sustain in the long run. Therefor valk or barbarian would not be better vs condis than marauder, because you lose too much dmg for marginal gains, nor are condis the main reason, why marauder is commonly used. It is picked, because there are no demolisher stats in WvW (which i'm very glad about), and other 4-stat combinations offer much less dmg for most builds and 3-stat is simply worse overall.The stat that would be the closest to a "condi counter stat" is healing power, tho generally stats are not the way to go when it comes to countering condis. Which is fine, because there is cleansing. Lot's of it. Which provides much stronger defense than stats anyway.