Permanent stealth inside objectives needs counterplay, please.

[Bristingr.5034]

2 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

 

Trapped? they can't run up the same stairs as you?

 

Bugs should be reported, or are you trying to exploit stuff?

 

The number of players that try to run out the front gate (which obviously won't let them) is more than I can count vs. the ones that try and leave by stairs.

 

Pretty sure that bug's been reported ages ago. So a little bit of both.

[Spirit Ritulist.9315]

On 6/7/2021 at 3:05 AM, Fueki.4753 said:

But gw2efficiency statistics literally mean nothing.

It's not even be slightly reflective of the games population.

It's a no-brainer to dismiss that site's data when considering the game's health.

 

Did you fail statistics or are you still in high school and haven't reached it yet? 

 

While it's true that smaller sample sizes result in sampling errors when trying to figure the true percentage (think 10 coin flips and you get 6 heads and 4 tails. That doesn't mean heads is 60% chance) gw2efficeny is our best source of data of people who are *actually* playing this game (you can check achievement statistics too. 144k people have finished the first chapter of icebrood saga which is 150k players who've logged in, in the last 2 years thats not the actual population playing game, but it is a sizeable amount). That 11 million number thrown around earlier I find extremely dubious. How many of those are alt accounts? The only number I would consider to be wrong is the rev number. Because rev is locked behind HoT and while the majority of people on GW2 efficency are people who've bought the expansions, we don't see the numbers of actual free to play players. You are throwing out the sample data of 300,000 players because you don't like it? Or because it goes against your argument?

 

It takes a real certain type of person to just say "you're wrong and all of this data is also wrong and I don't have to prove myself". 

 

So lets use the wayback machine (a machine that caches old website pages).  Using the wayback machine the earliest version of the player statistics we can find is Nov 19th 2019. Is a year and a half good enough for you? Heres the difference between 2019-today for Profession characters

 

Class         -       2019       -    2021

Guard               12.38%   -    12.60%

Warrior           12.11%  -   11.91%

Necromancer  11.71% -   11.91%

Ranger             11.70%  -   11.75%

Mesmer           11.52%  -   11.31%

Elementalist    11.21%  -   10.98%

Thief                  11.02%  -  10.89%

Rev                     9.49%    -   9.82%

Engineer            8.86%   -   8.83%

 

Playtime hours match this same trend as well I'll post thief's here if you want but rest you can see for yourself  2019: 10.18%   2021: 9.90%     this means that there are less thiefs today, than there were 2 years ago.  

 

However if all of this is still not good enough for you I can link a player run census back in 2018 which near perfectly mirrors the results we see in 2019.  I'm a big data analytics guy and it really annoys me when people just ignore the data given to them because it doesn't fit into their argument. 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Spirit Ritulist.9315

[Fueki.4753]

20 minutes ago, Spirit Ritulist.9315 said:

Did you fail statistics or are you still in high school and haven't reached it yet?

Do you fail to see that gw2efficiency only has data from people who actively bothered to register of whom most are people interested in being efficient at the game?

It has hardly any from casuals who care nothing for efficiency nor to register there.

 

Thus, it's at best a vertical slice of the higher end players, with hardly any data from the biggest bulk of the playerbase that didn't bother to register.

 

It ought to be obvious why it's not viable to use as a representative for the entire playerbase.

 

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Spirit Ritulist.9315]

1 minute ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Do you fail to see that gw2efficiency only, has data from people who actively bothered to register of whom mostly are people interested in being efficient at the game?

It has hardly any from casuals who care nothing for efficiency nor to register there.

 

Thus, it's at best a vertical slice of the higher end players, with hardly any data from the biggest bulk of the playerbase that didn't bother to register.

 

It ought to be obvious, why it's not viable to use as a representative for the entire playerbase.

 

 

I don't personally feel people use gw2efficeny for that, but perhaps I am an outlier. I don't think you actually understand what this website is used for. Or why people even use it.

 

However that does not explain why the player census (done on the subreddit) matches these results. What does efficiency have to do with deciding to play a class. And you're also making the assumption that everyone who signs up to this website does so the minute they started playing this game.  What do they join this website realize being a thief is inefficient and then delete their thief? 

 

There is absolutely not a single thing connected between playing efficiently and playing certain classes. Even if we assumed it was connected you would still be wrong. Power shortbow thief, flamethrower engineer are some of the most efficient classes you could possibly play in all of PvE capable of tagging the most mobs. Lootstick guardian use to be the best till it got nerfed because it was too good. Additionally warrior should not be this high if we are talking efficency, its bad in nearly every mode. 

[Evenge.4067]

On 6/7/2021 at 4:01 PM, adammantium.8031 said:

 

It was never a good idea to give thieves the ability to portal others. Remove it please.

^This

[Rodril.1385]

Hello.

Bumping this topic, because after recent personal combo fields/aoes overhaul I've noticed we cannot put more than one painter trap per person anymore (or was it always like this?). At attempt to place second, first immediately disappears. Portal-masters are even more opressive now. Some of them even use tank gear while hiding inside objectives and almost don't use stealth, running around at half-light speed and laughing at us. I point at you, thieves. Keeps with high LOS potential are too hard to defend against this approach.

I admit, i don't feel WvW plagued by this mechanic, but once you meet guy like this, only option to save sanity is to give up and leave.

 

I just ask for one simple change to make objectives defendible in this case:

 - make portals destructible (low amount of HP: up to 3k), demand 4 seconds channel time to use it, once portal destroyed, all existing channels are interrupted.

 

I think, it would make sense, as it does not nerf any stat of neither thief nor mesmer, but gives defenders reason to stay and defend, even if they cannot catch opressor. Also would make more sense in terms of sneakiness of this tactic.

[Dawdler.8521]

53 minutes ago, Rodril.1385 said:

Bumping this topic, because after recent personal combo fields/aoes overhaul I've noticed we cannot put more than one painter trap per person anymore (or was it always like this?). At attempt to place second, first immediately disappears.

It has always worked like that.

[Xenesis.6389]

lmao those gwefficiency class stats, so useless for an argument for wvw.

16 million gw2 accounts, only about 341k accounts on gwefficiency, mostly people who care abotu efficiency and bragging about their account value.

Way back in the day it we were told about 30-40% of the playerbase play wvw.

Obviously some classes are better for pvp or pve.

Just basing off the percentages would you really say warrior is the second most played class in wvw? lol more like near the bottom of the list. Meanwhile eng listed as bottom of the list while every single zerg operates with like a quarter of their numbers as scrappers.

Useless numbers.

[kash.9213]

2 hours ago, Rodril.1385 said:

Hello.

Bumping this topic, because after recent personal combo fields/aoes overhaul I've noticed we cannot put more than one painter trap per person anymore (or was it always like this?). At attempt to place second, first immediately disappears. Portal-masters are even more opressive now. Some of them even use tank gear while hiding inside objectives and almost don't use stealth, running around at half-light speed and laughing at us. I point at you, thieves. Keeps with high LOS potential are too hard to defend against this approach.

I admit, i don't feel WvW plagued by this mechanic, but once you meet guy like this, only option to save sanity is to give up and leave.

 

I just ask for one simple change to make objectives defendible in this case:

 - make portals destructible (low amount of HP: up to 3k), demand 4 seconds channel time to use it, once portal destroyed, all existing channels are interrupted.

 

I think, it would make sense, as it does not nerf any stat of neither thief nor mesmer, but gives defenders reason to stay and defend, even if they cannot catch opressor. Also would make more sense in terms of sneakiness of this tactic.

- I don't know what's changed about that.

- I would be okay with giving the portal a Health Bar if it wasn't too low. Keep in mind there are people who use Shadow Portal and other Preparations up close to set up plays. 

- At least now they should be locked into one build, unless I'm doing something wrong after that recent change because I can't lay down Pitfall and switch to another build that has it anymore, it will become a dud and I have to reapply it. 

[koben.2654]

i think every class does have at least one reveal so the counter play is there but giving even more portals was too much thief's ports should either be nerfed to only a self port period AND cd/visuals/audio added or removed

one solution to teef portals would just simply match them to the way mesmer portals are 
make the skill timer only go on CD once you finish the portal 
make the teef portal have a visual and audial component 
and cause a thief is not a mesmer, the thieves prepared protal is something only they themselves can use ... they cant take anyone with them. so at least if you have a thief camper if they solo a keep/tower they deserve the cap. 

you can both HEAR and SEE a the mesmer portal , lay all your traps on and around it you can see the purple faded glow on the ground and then when its active a dark GLOWING purple .... 
you dont get any visual clue with the teef portal that i have seen other than when you are using it you see a small waft of smoke around you like you blasted a smoke field 

you can not do this /very well/ with the teef portal unless you are on the same team and even then sometimes its still hard to see 

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, koben.2654 said:

i think every class does have at least one reveal so the counter play is there but giving even more portals was too much thief's ports should either be nerfed to only a self port period AND cd/visuals/audio added or removed

one solution to teef portals would just simply match them to the way mesmer portals are 
make the skill timer only go on CD once you finish the portal 
make the teef portal have a visual and audial component 
and cause a thief is not a mesmer, the thieves prepared protal is something only they themselves can use ... they cant take anyone with them. so at least if you have a thief camper if they solo a keep/tower they deserve the cap. 

you can both HEAR and SEE a the mesmer portal , lay all your traps on and around it you can see the purple faded glow on the ground and then when its active a dark GLOWING purple .... 
you dont get any visual clue with the teef portal that i have seen other than when you are using it you see a small waft of smoke around you like you blasted a smoke field 

you can not do this /very well/ with the teef portal unless you are on the same team and even then sometimes its still hard to see 

In the spirit of matching the engineer where all skills are basicly random due to either kitten design or procs, IMO the thief teleport should have a 50% chance of leaving half the body of the person who entered behind.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

In the spirit of matching the engineer where all skills are basicly random due to either kitten design or procs, IMO the thief teleport should have a 50% chance of leaving half the body of the person who entered behind.

50% chance to perma ban thief player on cast would be better solution for the problem IMO, this way we would remove the problem of sneaking within keeps and also make overall WvW much healthier place without that class.

[kash.9213]

58 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

50% chance to perma ban thief player on cast would be better solution for the problem IMO, this way we would remove the problem of sneaking within keeps and also make overall WvW much healthier place without that class.

People should be able to sneak around in keeps if they weren't fished out. The portal is alright and fun to use in a fight if you like setting up plays. The access to stealth that can be staggered and stacked together, which is kind of more accessible in structures with npcs and walls to work off of, should be reduced. Or you can wait for a whole class, most of whom don't bother with any of that, to be scrapped like you're asking because they were mean to you or whatever. 

Edited October 1, 2021 by kash.9213

[Boh.4568]

I agree about thief portals, but sneaking in is OK, as long as when you exit stealth you are immediately located by the NPCs and you get a revealed debuff that lasts as long as you're inside the keep/tower/castle, with the obligatory red dot on the map.

If despite all this no one comes to look for you, you are free to sleep inside the keep and try to kill the lord alone.

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 6/6/2021 at 6:14 AM, Rodril.1385 said:

Hello.

I'm playing for almost two years, mostly WvW, yet i have not found any counterplay for enemy thieves sitting in towers, aside of bringing entire blob to smoke them out.

If i'm just missing that, please enlighten me, otherwise, i propose two suggestions:

- make shields siege periodically reveal stealthed enemies around in short radius (240p);

- make warclaw's "Sniff" ability to mark stealthed enemies as well.

 

Unfortunately stealth/teleport mechanic became too out of hand: even if you find thief you probably won't outrun them. Moreover if they wear ministrel/trailblazer gear, killing them might be just impossible. In general, situation, when 10 people know about thief in tower, but unable to do anything is nothing, but dull.

 

Wouldn't mind Sniff having the ability to detect stealth, shouldn't reveal mind you but should detect during the ping. When first introduced that was a common mindset people had that it would do based on the early tool tip.

 

So +1 from me there. 

[Telgum.6071]

On 10/1/2021 at 9:54 PM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

50% chance to perma ban thief player on cast would be better solution for the problem IMO, this way we would remove the problem of sneaking within keeps and also make overall WvW much healthier place without that class.

You are such a good joker, keep it up.

[Jitters.9401]

On 6/6/2021 at 9:43 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Except that its marked that last 30s, not revealed. Revealed last 3 seconds. A marked thief just stealths again every 3s and because they got so many teleports they are easily a second or two away from you once they reappear. Every time they appear you got maybe a second to hit them, which is little difference from not being revealed.

 

Revealed is barely an annoyance.

 

Ceterum autem censeo Thief esse delendam.

I play a thief. and I was just chain revealed. I fail to see how being chain deprived of my ability to stealth is fair. I wish it showed the reveal in the combat log since I was going 1v1 with a guardian and I am unaware of how they can chain reveal someone multiple times... and it was no 3 second thing. it was far longer.

 

I also believe there is a reveal hack/bug. I was at the north west corner of Stone Mist (just outside the wall and we owned it) when a player I had been fighting almost at the sentry on the bridge by Anz.... somehow revealed me from that insane distance, and that is not the only time I have been revealed when my opponent is around 3000 game feet/meters away. 

 

Three Things...

(1) There should be a cooldown before you can be revealed again to make it fair play. 

(2) The combat log should show reveal and where it came from.

(3) I only stealth with Shadow Refuge... Blinding Powder... and a 3 second stealth with the Withdraw heal. so being chain revealed is way too ridiculous. There should be a cool down before you can be revealed again. 

[Leaa.2943]

4 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

You are such a good joker, keep it up.

Ok this will be fun. I am a scout on my server who spend roughly 2-6 hours doing this everyday, every month, every year for 9 years. I can tell you that no there is no real counter to find a thief inside of a keep. Yes there is the traps. The trap that you can place 1 per person. So now imagine me in the fire/air/earth keep on red border. Getting a thief in to any keep on red border is so kittening infuriating that i can not even begin to tell you how dumb it is. Adding to that, the fact that you can also hide under the floor and inside of walls is not making it much better.

 

Ok so again the one trap. in the fire/air/earth keep cowers roughly um 0.1 percent of the keep. So i can stand there with my trap hoping for the thief to step in to it. Meahwhile the thief is on the other side of the keep in which is not visible to me at all. 

 

Ok so i scratch my hair how do i do this. I call in chat, people come and start to place traps. This are roamers some thiefs them self and some god kitten good at it. So now we have 15 traps who covers maybe 1.5 percent of the keep and people also standing, running and watching everywere. And sometimes a thief do jump in to a trap now the hunt begin because you have a few second to get it before the mark is gone. and consider we are not gonna be on that one single spot where the thief steps in to a trap so now we all run around throwing damage everywere in that area, meanwhile the thief is now on another level of the keep and watching you go around. 

 

This can go on for hours. Litterally hours. And i dare you to call me a joke because i know exactly what to do and how to do it but the amount of free space for the thief to hide and stealth is just huge.on red border. 

On Alpineborder, it is easier because the keep have more visibillity and is lighther and less hiding spots. Getting a thief on Alpine can be done in 15-20 min on red border there was one time a thief in Earth keep was in it for 5 hours. With abusing the under the floor, inside the walls and as DE next to permastealth when needed all that kitten together with 4 levels of a keep you are not gonna have a fun time..

 

So please don't try and tell that it is fine. It is not. And you have never found a thief in a few minutes who knows what he/she is doing inside of the keeps on the red border. If you claim that, the joke is on you.

[Dawdler.8521]

7 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

 and it was no 3 second thing. it was far longer.

Revealed as a consequence of breaking stealth last 3 seconds.

So prove it.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

All these solutions are too complicated and mostly unnecessary. A simpler path is to just add Sentries inside of all objectives (say one per camp and tower, several per keep and a bunch scattered around SMC), so a skilled Mesmer or Thief can still kill them and hide but it gives players a chance to find them in the mean time.

 

The main counteragument is this would affect blob fights in the larger objectives, but stealth pushes are almost never used outside of SMC anyway, they're mostly an objectiveless tactic since structures tend to offer much of the same protections as stealth does in open-field where theres nothing to circle around, and alternatives such as Portals would still be viable, if not even more viable than they are now.

 

Also, remove Watchtower since it wouldn't be needed anymore with such a change. Enemies could break down a wall and snipe the Sentry to disable the "watchtower" effect until its revived by an OOC player.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Deedrick.4372]

Why not just remove stealth from the game, then systematically remove everything else that any one complains is to hard. Lets boil it down to a click game. No one will be disadvantaged, and when some one complains still (and they will,) just make WvW a place where anyone can come stand and get free loot so no one is bothered by mechanics that are easy to overcome, but even easier to kitten about on the forums.

[Strider Pj.2193]

2 hours ago, Deedrick.4372 said:

Why not just remove stealth from the game, then systematically remove everything else that any one complains is to hard. Lets boil it down to a click game. No one will be disadvantaged, and when some one complains still (and they will,) just make WvW a place where anyone can come stand and get free loot so no one is bothered by mechanics that are easy to overcome, but even easier to kitten about on the forums.

We wouldn’t want to cut down on the variety of content in the WvW section of the forum though..

[Telgum.6071]

16 hours ago, Leaa.2943 said:

Ok this will be fun. I am a scout on my server who spend roughly 2-6 hours doing this everyday, every month, every year for 9 years. I can tell you that no there is no real counter to find a thief inside of a keep. Yes there is the traps. The trap that you can place 1 per person. So now imagine me in the fire/air/earth keep on red border. Getting a thief in to any keep on red border is so kittening infuriating that i can not even begin to tell you how dumb it is. Adding to that, the fact that you can also hide under the floor and inside of walls is not making it much better.

 

Ok so again the one trap. in the fire/air/earth keep cowers roughly um 0.1 percent of the keep. So i can stand there with my trap hoping for the thief to step in to it. Meahwhile the thief is on the other side of the keep in which is not visible to me at all. 

 

Ok so i scratch my hair how do i do this. I call in chat, people come and start to place traps. This are roamers some thiefs them self and some god kitten good at it. So now we have 15 traps who covers maybe 1.5 percent of the keep and people also standing, running and watching everywere. And sometimes a thief do jump in to a trap now the hunt begin because you have a few second to get it before the mark is gone. and consider we are not gonna be on that one single spot where the thief steps in to a trap so now we all run around throwing damage everywere in that area, meanwhile the thief is now on another level of the keep and watching you go around. 

 

This can go on for hours. Litterally hours. And i dare you to call me a joke because i know exactly what to do and how to do it but the amount of free space for the thief to hide and stealth is just huge.on red border. 

On Alpineborder, it is easier because the keep have more visibillity and is lighther and less hiding spots. Getting a thief on Alpine can be done in 15-20 min on red border there was one time a thief in Earth keep was in it for 5 hours. With abusing the under the floor, inside the walls and as DE next to permastealth when needed all that kitten together with 4 levels of a keep you are not gonna have a fun time..

 

So please don't try and tell that it is fine. It is not. And you have never found a thief in a few minutes who knows what he/she is doing inside of the keeps on the red border. If you claim that, the joke is on you.

So what is the problem, thieves are good at hiding? That surely is so useful against classes that have better damage, better sustain, better utility and higher HP pool /s.

No offense, but if all the personal experiences of the player base would requiere inmediate actions from Anet, every single class of this game would have dissapear at this point. You don't have fun looking for thieves, I don't have fun chasing warriors who outrun everyone when they start losing the fight, guardians and their permanent stability+aegis spam or unkillable elementalist near structures thanks to their up to three invulnerability skills, not to mention the permanent boon + condition pressure. The main difference is, those three examples I gave to you have an actual impact balance on combat while hiding inside structures not. Best way to counter a hiding thief is looking where the enemies are moving to in order to get inside.

So please, spare me your personal experiences and don't talk about jokes while writing that essay.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

18 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

So what is the problem, thieves are good at hiding? That surely is so useful against classes that have better damage, better sustain, better utility and higher HP pool /s.

No offense, but if all the personal experiences of the player base would requiere inmediate actions from Anet, every single class of this game would have dissapear at this point. You don't have fun looking for thieves, I don't have fun chasing warriors who outrun everyone when they start losing the fight, guardians and their permanent stability+aegis spam or unkillable elementalist near structures thanks to their up to three invulnerability skills, not to mention the permanent boon + condition pressure. The main difference is, those three examples I gave to you have an actual impact balance on combat while hiding inside structures not. Best way to counter a hiding thief is looking where the enemies are moving to in order to get inside.

So please, spare me your personal experiences and don't talk about jokes while writing that essay.

I don't really understand you at this point. You don't have "problem" with chasing teefs, but you do have against Warriors, while Teefs > Warriors in mobility department 25/8 and they don't even have access to stealth, wth? You also mention Eles, while in reality they're dead the moment something is capable of doing burst between iframes and the amount of condies they produce isn't even comparable to condi Teefs in the slightest. Lastly Guardians which have almost 0 mobility skills compared to everything else in the game and is alive only thanks to boons and blocks most of the time, unless they commit into some bunker/support builds, but then they don't do much beside surviving.
All of the classes you have mentioned are pretty much fodder to Teefs, unless they outplay them af and either kill them or force them to run away(more likely).
You forgot to mention that Teef is now capable of porting inside people or providing stealth to Mesmers, while others on the list do not. 
Let's not forget about these lovely 18k+ Vaults spammers in zergs with perma stab.
Some real Bias is spitting through your post.

[Telgum.6071]

22 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I don't really understand you at this point. You don't have "problem" with chasing teefs, but you do have against Warriors, while Teefs > Warriors in mobility department 25/8 and they don't even have access to stealth, wth?

You don't understand because we are talking about scenarios where certain classes overperform, like warrior running away and thieves hiding inside structures, not how fast can a thief run. And btw thief can chase but never outrun warrior due to iniciative starve, thanks again to the rivers of salt of this forum

22 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

All of the classes you have mentioned are pretty much fodder to Teefs, unless they outplay them af and either kill them or force them to run away(more likely).

If you can't win against the average thief, then yes, you are pretty much a fodder against thieves. Is so fun to see people saying that thieves can eat warriors when spellbreakers can, at the same time, stop them from running thanks to MT while also eating the full thief HP with an axe/GS/hydromancy sigil combo.

22 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Let's not forget about these lovely 18k+ Vaults spammers in zergs with perma stab.

Thief doesn't have stability. I don't even remember thief having a single stability source. Good thing we can agree on something: zerg Firebrands are overpowered because of how full and competent they are due to both their healings/aegis and their stability spam.

22 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Some real Bias is spitting through your post.

Funny coming from someone who can't even write the word "thief" 😁. As usually, the trolling demigod being true and honest to his name.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Telgum.6071