twisted marionette is virtually unwinnable for a casual group

[Jokuc.3478]

19 minutes ago, xianvar.6075 said:

Other factors (ping for example) also play into it. In general the conclusion should not be "git gud"

It kind of is a git gud scenario though. The majority of decent players will probably not have any issues killing their boss nor defending their lanes once everyone get familiar with the fights. The problem occurs when little Timmy who doesn't know what CC is fails to hold his lane and doesn't use his dodge on the platform, punishing everyone in the group. When I played the Marionette yesterday, despite succeeding 3 times, the majority of runs I did failed because a few people messed up. I saw someone else in this thread say this is "bad design". I don't agree with this. It's just a matter of making sure everyone in the group knows what to do and kicking little Timmy out of the squad.

About ping, I'm sure this can be an issue for some but if you make your encounters easier because some people have 300 ms ping you are really prioritizing the wrong thing.

[zealex.9410]

33 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The difficulty of this fight is not as impacted by powercreep, though. It mostly lies in plain numbers. The fact that public instance with average players are having significantly easier time than full squads of pre-screened players of above-average competence each (well, unless it's a full scourge squad, ofc - those generally have it easy either way)  clearly shows that it's the numbers that are way more important than competence here.

You think to highly of random squads made in lfg.

[Boogiepop Void.6473]

3 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

You think to highly of random squads made in lfg.

My point is again that a large part of the issues here aren't even player quality, just empty platforms.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Boogiepop Void.6473

[Astralporing.1957]

9 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

You think to highly of random squads made in lfg.

You assume way too much about squads i was in.

[Dante.1763]

15 hours ago, radda.8920 said:

 

the problem is that by making the game super easy , arena has also scared a significant part of the community, many HM pve players AND pvp players left the game .

I stayed because I love the atmosphere of this franchise for 16 years but frankly between the nerf of  HOT, the end  of raids,  meta events which no longer have any challenge and being reduced to following a spam 1 bus, the pvp which does not evolve ... it is complicated.

suddenly it feels good this kind of event like the marionette, I finally feel a little adrenaline in game. What I had not felt for years in gw2.

 

I hope to see lots of content like this in cantha but I have little hope seeing the negative feedback at the slightest difficulty, it's exhausting especially when you see the potential of this game

And thats why the first post i made in the thread had a suggestion that would please both crowds.

 

part 1.) Leave the squad version untouched, maybe minor nerfs OR mechanic adjustments(No more 5 platforms unless they can fix the platform bug). id lean for mechanic adjustments over nerfs for this one.

 

AND

 

Part 2.) Make the public version permanent: Either on a timer that only interferes with world bosses like the Fire elemental. OR alternating with the other mission in Eye Of the North. Making any adjustments that are needed so that average players can do the event.

 

Regardless imo the rewards need to be increased, either through allowing mobs to drop loot, or giving the items to craft the different colored ascended backpacks.

 

As to the rest of your post thats where things differ. Ive lost more friends and guildies to the difficulty of HOT(out of a 50 man guild, 2 of us still play, of those that stopped 10 only login for story related events now, they still havent finished HOT, they skipped it.), than i have to the lack of difficulty.

 

IF difficult content brought anet money they would never have shifted away from making it. I know if they go back to making content on HOT level again in the open world i probably will drop the game. Its not that i cant do the content, but rather its un enjoyable for me to do the content. I enjoy raids/fractals due them being content i dont have to do if i dont want to.

 

If they dont make the public marionette stay permanently then i have a feeling this content will be dead in less than a month or two. Theres even less reason to go back once the achievements are done than there is in raids or fractals.

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Twice in public instance. Twice success (with 1 fail in the first run, but the following lanes covered).

 

Public instances are already organizing and using squad commanders per lane to acquire the minimum/ideal number of players per lane.

 

The difficulty is fine. As players gain more experience, they will know which lanes to got to and which champions they can take or not. As well as lanes moving over to help, once the debuff has run out, to deal with the more challenging later wardens.

 

Here are some pointers and notes:

- if you are going down often during lane phase -> get better or improve your build, or both. There is nearly no reason to go down in lane phase, with maybe getting spiked 1nce or so

There can be a lot of damage flying around towards the end. Bring some self sustain beyond your personal heal skill. Better if it is group sustain, like Vigorous Shouts for warrior players.

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

- if you are struggling with any of the first 3 wardens -> get better or improve your build, ideally both

- wardens become increasingly difficult. if you are a weaker player, try to take a spot in lane 1 or 2

- bring cc, it increases damage done to broken champions

Every build should bring CC in this event.

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

- have 1 ranged option, or be prepared to dodge a lot of melee cleave against some wardens

Can confirm. Had to do Warden 4 on Lane 5 (Lane 4 failed) and I was using Axe/Axe + Hammer. Instantly regretted it. Didn't need range on Warden 2 though. Everyone should know which Wardens need to have a range set to play against and be ready to swap before heading for the portal.

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

- the debuff you receive after killing a warden usually expires before 5 lanes have passed. This allows 1 lane to shift over to another and help out. Use this for example to deal with the final warden and have the fight succeed (be prepared to have all the minion rush through the lane though)

- aoe skills CAN reach other platforms. For example, using a Signet of Undeath on your platform will resurrect any adjacent platform player in the effect range

Didn't know that debuff went away. Good to know.

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

- don't forget the regulator. Happens quite often after killing the champion, remember you are not done

- use the special action command to support other lanes, potentially saving it for a rally

Please rez your friends people.

 

Also please stagger your entries into the portals to ensure you get spread out enough.

[LyraOrpheo.8450]

21 hours ago, coollizzylou.9387 said:

Now, let me just preface this with saying that i do expect this to get better as the community adjusts to the new content and a widely accepted strategy is developed. That being said, I just finished attempting the twisted marionette several times. it's a really fun boss fight! i like it a lot! But as a person trying to lead it in the LFG for the community, it's virtually unwinnable with a disorganized or semi-organized squad.

 

here are the things that made it impossible:

1. the small number of available players in one squad (50) is simply not enough to complete the boss fight unless the group is hyper-organized: players must split the squad exactly ten to each lane to ensure the reasonable possibility of victory. Even with locked subgroups and many requests in text chat for players to stay in the lane their subgroup coincides with, this simply does not happen.
2. the wardens are nearly impossible to kill within the time limit, let alone the chain: because the amount of squad members are so limited, the maximum available players per platform is two. Oftentimes, these two players would not be able to duo a champion in the allotted time in the best conditions. The problem is compounded by the need to dodge attacks from the marionette and address mechanics from the warden. Additionally, if there are not the full 10 people in the lane, players will have to fight the boss solo. this can be extreamly frustrating as a heal focused character is almost guaranteed to be unable to kill the warden, while even the most skilled damage focused character will most likely be killed. And even if the warden is killed, the chain must also be destroyed. the time limit is simply too short for two players of varying skill and gear to do. For instance, I was playing my heal firebrand, and was put on a platform with another heal firebrand. We were only able to kill the warden because other players on a neighboring platform were able to use AoEs to assist us. We were not able to destroy the chain.
3. platform assignment will sometimes not fill a platform, leading to an automatic fail: this is probably the most frustrating thing about the marionette as it is. Because the players are so limited, whatever system that decides which players go on which platform is ineffective. As such, it is not uncommon for a platform to simply never have a player in it, leading to an automatic, unavoidable failure of the attempt. This in turns leads to confusion and frustration that is very hard to manage as a commander.

 

TLDR: there is simply not enough room for error for a semi-organized squad of casual players, largely stemming from the fact that there is a maximum of 50 players available. if the twisted marionette is superposed to be for only the most try-hard of players, then I'm sure it is very enjoyable for them. But for the rest of the community, it's practically impossible.

Maybe that's part of the point, I'm impressed it can be attempted at all in a casual group, for most games this kind of same content you have to definitively guild up and coordinate. I dont think this is so difficult only the tryhards are catered, you gotta know two basic rules here:

1) Match normal numbers to Roman numerals up to 5 and go with the result

2) How blue/breakbars work

3) Watch a youtube tutorial before you try to "wing" this and frustrate a commander

 

oops I said two instead of three, clearly I can't count and therefore I too fail the basic IQ test attempting the Marionette entails 

[radda.8920]

1 hour ago, Dante.1763 said:

And thats why the first post i made in the thread had a suggestion that would please both crowds.

 

part 1.) Leave the squad version untouched, maybe minor nerfs OR mechanic adjustments(No more 5 platforms unless they can fix the platform bug). id lean for mechanic adjustments over nerfs for this one.

 

AND

 

Part 2.) Make the public version permanent: Either on a timer that only interferes with world bosses like the Fire elemental. OR alternating with the other mission in Eye Of the North. Making any adjustments that are needed so that average players can do the event.

 

Regardless imo the rewards need to be increased, either through allowing mobs to drop loot, or giving the items to craft the different colored ascended backpacks.

 

As to the rest of your post thats where things differ. Ive lost more friends and guildies to the difficulty of HOT(out of a 50 man guild, 2 of us still play, of those that stopped 10 only login for story related events now, they still havent finished HOT, they skipped it.), than i have to the lack of difficulty.

 

IF difficult content brought anet money they would never have shifted away from making it. I know if they go back to making content on HOT level again in the open world i probably will drop the game. Its not that i cant do the content, but rather its un enjoyable for me to do the content. I enjoy raids/fractals due them being content i dont have to do if i dont want to.

 

If they dont make the public marionette stay permanently then i have a feeling this content will be dead in less than a month or two. Theres even less reason to go back once the achievements are done than there is in raids or fractals.

 

 

it's a shame, HOT was perfection, I have never seen such fun content on a pve mmo, best memories in game.

The game finally asked to think, to adapt, to change your build, to play with the others AND not beside the others, to coordinate, kitten what a masterpiece. And HM pve players (mainly gw1 ones) left the game long before HOT as they couldn't handle LS1 months and months .... so of course you didn't notice that during hot .

 

if cantha is close to HOT it will be a great expansion worthy of guild wars. If it is suitable for the spe grind spam 1, it will be an annoying disaster.

Edited July 14, 2021 by radda.8920

[Dante.1763]

20 minutes ago, radda.8920 said:

 

it's a shame, HOT was perfection, I have never seen such fun content on a pve mmo, best memories in game.

The game finally asked to think, to adapt, to change your build, to play with the others AND not beside the others, to coordinate, kitten what a masterpiece. And HM pve players (mainly gw1 ones) left the game long before HOT as they couldn't handle hv1 months and months .... so of course you didn't notice that during hot .

 

if cantha is close to HOT it will be a great expansion worthy of guild wars. If it is suitable for the spe grind spam 1, it will be an annoying disaster.

Close to maybe, but not at the level of HOT would be great to see. A difficulty above pre nerf Orr, but below HOT would be nice to have and i do hope thats what Cantha is at. I am a hard mode player from GW1 by the way, i liked that system alot more. optional difficulty increase that was challenging(if you didnt cheese it, which you could easily), while providing improved drop rates. You could get the same items from regular play, but it would take a bit longer...or just solo farm things like i did. Mmm solo UW ecto farming, miss those days sometimes.

 

I havent adapted my build or thought at all during this event. I run a raid build though, and it works for all content.  Dodge aoe circles, cc champions. ezpz.

 

The difficulty is to the mechanics being buggy, and not being able to carry for those players who cant or dont want to play at similiar level.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Dante.1763

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

people not pulling the mob over the mines. Because stupid

people not cc'ing the champs.

 

The usual. People not listen, people not reading. Because in open world they can just wing it.

[Nata.9812]

OK. This marionete is becoming quite boring.

Today I joined a raid and commander said he wanted to know my gear/build. I pinged it and he kicked me out without any explanation.

I was playing as meta necromancer full geared. Above all, although I am not a pro player, I always killed the boss in my platform even when I was alone.

That is what this event is now.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Nata.9812

[Shadows Creed.3902]

So i think the marionette was a cool thing to bring back but since public is only here for a week; within literally prob a month it going to be hardly done content.  Getting 50 people in a squad to wait for 50 to get on is going to be hard in prime times let alone off hours.

 

Based on what i have seen my advice is:

1.  remove 1 panel make it 4 vs 5 it all seems to be an issue of the 5 panels.

2. keep the public but put it every other hour with dragonstorm.

[LuRkEr.9462]

I've won it 3 times in random public event so didn't seem to bad. (Had 1 loss in public day 1)

Won it 1 time so far in a fixed squad that was organized.

 

Marionette really comes down to each individual player having a head on their shoulders.

Mechanics: Players have to actually do the mechanic of the fight (hit from behind, mines, etc) 

DPS: Can't be having the 1k auto attack dps players in the group else RNG hits and a few of those get put on 1 platform.  By no means does this take raid dps, it can easily be done with each player doing 5k+ dps but that means they need to hit more buttons 😛 

 

Overall I think its a fun fight, is it disappointing to lose because of bad players? Yes, but we haven't really had that since the early days of Drakkar.

[Ryuk.6840]

Maybe in each boss there a group of undead/ghost/people already dead/future self/rats/birds guiding their younglings to safety/hologramm-guess from Tamh , that will show you the "future" (next 4-5 sec), but in the end everything don't make it in time and  die .

And each time you complete the boss , it will get harder and harder to see them ? 😛

Edited July 15, 2021 by Ryuk.6840

[Ayrilana.1396]

Well it seems that public instances are getting more consistent as I've done four in a row without a failure.  All that was needed was time.

 

Hopefully Anet reverses their position and keeps public mode.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Ayrilana.1396

[Bristingr.5034]

10 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

Well it seems that public instances are getting more consistent as I've done four in a row without a failure.  All that was needed was time.

 

Hopefully Anet reverses their position and keeps public mode.

Failed 2 today so far.

[Nata.9812]

Maybe I am unlucky then because I joined 2 public instances today just to see if we can complete it. The 2 attempts weren´t able to pass from the 1st boss... no kidding.

[Cynder.2509]

7 hours ago, Nata.9812 said:

OK. This marionete is becoming quite boring.

Today I joined a raid and commander said he wanted to know my gear/build. I pinged it and he kicked me out without any explanation.

I was playing as meta necromancer full geared. Above all, although I am not a pro player, I always killed the boss in my platform even when I was alone.

That is what this event is now.

Well, what kind of necro were you? People tend to hate necros a lot as well as rangers (if on noob bearbow) as this was rooted in the good old dungeon "elitism" 
If you were a meta scourge it's no problem but core necro, MM (minion mancer, old term from gw1) or "power" reaper (dps on that sucks and you should go to snowcrows instead of metabattle in that case) you're kinda f*cked. 
I've seen however screenshots of full scourge squads for easy win.
Example:

It's true that a lot of vets have left the game due to content drought and a bunch of new players joined but it would be better that we veterans are less toxic to the new players and actually explain stuff properly than just throwing insults around and telling them to quit (seen my fair share of that over all the years) 

[Poormany.4507]

I really doubt a large amount of players will be able to do this in a week, especially considering the platform issues that need to be fixed, after which it will most likely be dead content. It would be really nice if the public version were made permanent, or even a regular open world boss.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Poormany.4507

[Cynder.2509]

As an update: I've done 9 publics so far (Couldn't do it every time as life got in the way, sorry) and 7 of them were sucessfull. The one squad thing I joined was a pure flame and kickfest that failed due to everyone getting discouraged, kicked being told to kill themself and leaving. 

[Image.8630]

Been trying to finish Marionette Deregulator AP since the 1st run of the Marionette and #5 always fails since never enough ppl to kill all those copies.  Guess another AP that will never get completed. ☹️ 

[Ayrilana.1396]

4 minutes ago, Image.8630 said:

Been trying to finish Marionette Deregulator AP since the 1st run of the Marionette and #5 always fails since never enough ppl to kill all those copies.  Guess another AP that will never get completed. ☹️ 

Depending on how far the bar has progressed, you can always send some from other lanes to help who do not have the debuff. 

[dodgerrule.8739]

I did it on the launch day. This launch day and the previous one.
 

People have to learn the mechanics. Nowadays you deal 3 times the damage then basic attacks did back when this was actually released. 
 

people just need to not afk and leech during the fight like allot of them do. There’s not enough room for that when most of the community can’t defeat champs solo.

Edited July 17, 2021 by dodgerrule.8739
Adding information

[Xanadrine.4352]

I really wish they would make the public version permanent also, I cant be alone in this? we need more inclusive things like this for the regular players. I think Anet is making a big mistake remove marionette from public. Can we get a petition to keep both in game? 

Edited July 17, 2021 by Zuldari.3940

[PauloTex.9280]

No need for overstatements. Marionette was a complete faillure. Many others and I tried it 6 times in a row and it failled over stupid concept and design flaws.