Is anyone really looking forward to...more Aurene?

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

18 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

Joko. Lazarus.

Both "build up" for far lesser amount of time, and both specifically villains from the get go. That comparision is flawed.

 

I would not find your "ideal" ending anywhere close any sort of semblance ideal by any stretch of imagination anyway, that suggestion consist of basically "throw away everything you built-up storywise from everything past vanilla storyline, beause some people don't like that one particular character". It is just a bad idea.

 

15 hours ago, Yggranya.5201 said:

If the only way to be free from slavery to one creature or another is the destruction of Tyria

Not going to happen, not after 9 years of game lifecycle.

[Imba.9451]

1 minute ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Both "build up" for far lesser amount of time, and both specifically villains from the get go. That comparision is flawed.

 

You forget GW1. Taking that into account, the argument is much less flawed than you try to make it.

1 minute ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

I would not find your "ideal" ending anywhere close any sort of semblance ideal by any stretch of imagination anyway, that suggestion consist of basically "throw away everything you built-up storywise from everything past vanilla storyline, beause some people don't like that one particular character". It is just a bad idea.

That's just polemic. People simply point out the flaws in Aurene.

Also, killing off a character doesn't equal "Throwing buildup away". Thats something you got very, very wrong about storytelling.

Sometimes death IS the payoff for buildup, because it is either the natural conclusion (Eddard, Song of Ice and Fire) or a way to kickstart a chain of events for another story to be told.

Simply 1-upping the threat like in DBZ, in order to always have something stronger to fight will cause dissonance with the player.

 

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

39 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

You forget GW1. Taking that into account, the argument is much less flawed than you try to make it.

No it isn't, and no I didn't. Whole buildup of Lazarus in GW1 is a handfull of marginal side quests in eotn, where you meet a White Mantle Executor bearing aspect of lazarus and not liking the idea of dying when lazarus reforms, asking player to help them get rid of this "curse". All we get from it is that there is one mursaat that managed to survive extinction of their race, and that in the end - fate of that one particular mursaat is unknown. This is nowhere near of "setup" compared to setting up mystery and the egg in LWS2, getting that egg to safety in HoT, setting up that this egg is going to be key against EDs, then protecting and raising the hatchling through LWS3, interacting with elder brother of that hatchling, and saving it again in PoF, all the way to the ascension arc of LWS4, with important character development through IBS.

As for Joko - Joko didn't wasn't "set up" in GW1, Joko had his whole mini-arc in GW1, with movement of the world concluding this arc. We see effects of that conclusion in PoF and LWS4, where we get to interact with this villain again.

And again both are villains from the get go. Therefore meant to be defeated at one point or another, and killing them of is one way to defeat a villain once and for all. And you are trying to equal that to character that was key to GW2 story development from mid-LWS2, that is supposed to be very important gear in cosmic wheel of whole setting of the game. So yes, that argument is very flawed.

 

53 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

That's just polemic. People simply point out the flaws in Aurene.

Also, killing off a character doesn't equal "Throwing buildup away". Thats something you got very, very wrong about storytelling.

Sometimes death IS the payoff for buildup, because it is either the natural conclusion (Eddard, Song of Ice and Fire) or a way to kickstart a chain of events for another story to be told.

And here you are pretty much ignoring whole context of character we speak about in here. You are doing exact thing you accuse me of doing.

In this particular case of Aurene, if we go with just your suggestion of "ideal ending" - Aurene Dies. We have years of setup that Aurene is necessary for the All to stay in balance, and for life on tyria to be sutainable. You just don't simply kill Aurene off. Even if Aurene do go crazy, which would be throwing away setup of LWS4E6 of her "being first of her kind" (specifically Benevolent ED that does not go mad due to overload of different kinds of magic), but even if she does go mad, her death equals very quick spiral of destruction of whole setting the game is in - it could work in some mediums, but it is not going to work in 9 year old MMORPG that is supposed to have "it's best years ahead of it" (Colin's words here).

Now had you said that "ideal ending" would be that we manage to find way to balance the All without use of any sentient being doing it for us, and Aurene dies to make it possible, I would say I don't like that sort of ending but I would not be arguing against it. But you did not say that. You said that "ideal ending" of eod is just Aurene dying. Which couldn't be further from truth.

 

1 hour ago, Imba.9451 said:

Simply 1-upping the threat like in DBZ, in order to always have something stronger to fight will cause dissonance with the player.

There is no 1-upping involved for a long time now. The stakes have plateaued after the peak of Kralk attempting to devour the mists itself. After that threat got managed we got back to "just" trying to mantain the balance of the All. Primordus and Jormag may have been two ED's instead of one, but they didn't try to devour very fabric of reality, so they are already less stakes than Kralk in LWS4.

And IBS being flawed and all have already showed, that it is possible to build a stakes with Aurene in the picture - by Aurene forcing herself out of the picture in a way that fits her character well. Bonus points for solution to the issue being much more complex than just smacking each dragon with our all-mighty powerhouse of an ED.

GW2 does not need stronger enemies to fight, all it needs is Aurene to have valid reasons to not interfere in whatever is current fight commander undertakes.

[Imba.9451]

1 minute ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

No it isn't, and no I didn't. Whole buildup of Lazarus in GW1 is a handfull of marginal side quests in eotn, where you meet a White Mantle Executor bearing aspect of lazarus and not liking the idea of dying when lazarus reforms, asking player to help them get rid of this "curse". All we get from it is that there is one mursaat that managed to survive extinction of their race, and that in the end - fate of that one particular mursaat is unknown. This is nowhere near of "setup" compared to setting up mystery and the egg in LWS2, getting that egg to safety in HoT, setting up that this egg is going to be key against EDs, then protecting and raising the hatchling through LWS3, interacting with elder brother of that hatchling, and saving it again in PoF, all the way to the ascension arc of LWS4, with important character development through IBS.

You forget raids.

But additionally, having too much of a single aspect of a story will get tedious as well - especially if it results in an all-powerfull being.

1 minute ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

As for Joko - Joko didn't wasn't "set up" in GW1, Joko had his whole mini-arc in GW1, with movement of the world concluding this arc. We see effects of that conclusion in PoF and LWS4, where we get to interact with this villain again.

And again both are villains from the get go. Therefore meant to be defeated at one point or another, and killing them of is one way to defeat a villain once and for all. And you are trying to equal that to character that was key to GW2 story development from mid-LWS2, that is supposed to be very important gear in cosmic wheel of whole setting of the game.

Joko is a major character in the lore of the game, wether you like it or not. He was around ALOT longer than aurene, did more things than Aurene, had more impact on the world than aurene, hence:

1 minute ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

So yes, that argument is very flawed.

It really isn't.

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

 

And here you are pretty much ignoring whole context of character we speak about in here. You are doing exact thing you accuse me of doing.

I fail to see how. Care to elaborate?

1 minute ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

In this particular case of Aurene, if we go with just your suggestion of "ideal ending" - Aurene Dies. We have years of setup that Aurene is necessary for the All to stay in balance, and for life on tyria to be sutainable.

That does not mean Aurene has to be alive in the end for this balance to happen. Thats your interpretation of it.

 

1 minute ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

You just don't simply kill Aurene off.

Based on your wishes maybe. But your or my wishes do not mean anything. What matters is good writing and coherence. And that can be achieved in multible ways. You liking Aurene does not contribute to this in the slightest.

1 minute ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

 

Even if Aurene do go crazy, which would be throwing away setup of LWS4E6 of her "being first of her kind" (specifically Benevolent ED that does not go mad due to overload of different kinds of magic), but even if she does go mad, her death equals very quick spiral of destruction of whole setting the game is in - it could work in some mediums, but it is not going to work in 9 year old MMORPG that is supposed to have "it's best years ahead of it" (Colin's words here).

I am no fan of the Aurene going crazy idea either, dor the exact points you made. It would not fit the narrative setup.

Her getting killed by other reasons however, or her sacrificing herself for the balance (wich is poorly explained and basically the equivalent to a mcguffin at this point) is a whole nother story.

Also, GW2 havin ""it's best years ahead of it" is no reason for Aurene to live. Better having a strong sendoff to a character than having her ability to basically end every conflict in existance that is hold back by her unwillingness to interfere overshadow ANY resemblance of tension.

1 minute ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Now had you said that "ideal ending" would be that we manage to find way to balance the All without use of any sentient being doing it for us, and Aurene dies to make it possible, I would say I don't like that sort of ending but I would not be arguing against it.

I never said anything in particular about my ideal ending, as far as I remember. In fact, we seem to be able to reach some common ground as it turns out.

1 minute ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

But you did not say that. You said that "ideal ending" of eod is just Aurene dying.

Yes, and you put words in my mouth for how this plays out. Aurene living is a detriment to GW2's story, hence she needs to die. That this needs to happen in a cohesive way is self-explanatory. You wouldn't assume me suggesting a pink unicorn appearing out of nowehere to stab her to death either. I hope.

1 minute ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Which couldn't be further from truth.

No. Aurene is too powerful. That alone is enough to have her die ion order to feel any tension again, without 1-upping the stakes. Also, she is a bad character and combines many tropes.

1 minute ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

 

There is no 1-upping involved for a long time now.

But it has to, if Aurene stays alive.

1 minute ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

The stakes have plateaued after the peak of Kralk attempting to devour the mists itself. After that threat got managed we got back to "just" trying to mantain the balance of the All. Primordus and Jormag may have been two ED's instead of one, but they didn't try to devour very fabric of reality, so they are already less stakes than Kralk in LWS4.

Yes, and the only reason they were allowed to do so is because of Aurene sitting on her kitten and doing nothing for a long time. Because the writers knew, she is too freaking powerful.

1 minute ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

And IBS being flawed and all have already showed, that it is possible to build a stakes with Aurene in the picture - by Aurene forcing herself out of the picture in a way that fits her character well.

Does it? A scheming dragon that certainly is up to no good with aurene sitting around is the epitomy of the "This is fine" meme.

1 minute ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Bonus points for solution to the issue being much more complex than just smacking each dragon with our all-mighty powerhouse of an ED.

Well, the solution wasn't that far away from that. We smacked the dragons with friendship-beams while Aurene ganked their healing supply.

1 minute ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

GW2 does not need stronger enemies to fight, all it needs is Aurene to have valid reasons to not interfere in whatever is current fight commander undertakes.

And those reason seem forced. Anet wants bothe: They want to have a character that is caring and supportive and that everyone loves without her earning it by doing something. Because if she did anything, nothing could stop her. Thus the writers need to come up with shallow reason for her sitting on her kitten.

 

Aurene is the worst character of GW2 with ease.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

Just now, Imba.9451 said:

You forget raids.

ah right, the bit of foreshadow hidden in the one only mode where the target audience is not going to care about story foreshadowing.

That ain't setup, that's foreshadowing, and even if we count that in, Lazarus has no setup comparatively to aurene post-IBS, and Joko, while faring slightly better is still nowhere close enough.

2 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

But additionally, having too much of a single aspect of a story will get tedious as well - especially if it results in an all-powerfull being.

I am not exactly sure what kind of a "single aspect of a story" you are refering in here to here, but the only issue with an all-powerfull being present in the story is how you play around it.

3 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

Joko is a major character in the lore of the game, wether you like it or not. He was around ALOT longer than aurene, did more things than Aurene, had more impact on the world than aurene, hence:

And still JOKO IS A VILLAIN. You keep ignoring that. (And a villain with not even half the set-up)

10 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

I never said anything in particular about my ideal ending, as far as I remember. In fact, we seem to be able to reach some common ground as it turns out.

I rechecked, and you are indeed correct in here, the poster who made the claim of "ideal ending" was Bristingr.5034 and I confused your response to Sajuuk's response to his claim as same person defending the idea. You have my apology in here for that.

So now I will address the parts of your response that with that in mind makes sense to be still addresed, in no particular order 😉

13 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

Her getting killed by other reasons however, or her sacrificing herself for the balance (wich is poorly explained and basically the equivalent to a mcguffin at this point) is a whole nother story.

I would disaggree with "the balance" being poorly explained mcguffin - we know that there is a certain amoung of "ambient" magic levels that is good for life. We do know that EDs remove magic from the ecosystem by devouring it, and then slowly release it back and 6 of them seems to be fairly close to optimal amount for the task. We also knwo that no ambient magic means no life, and that too much of it, is equivalent of trying to living in highly irradiated area. We know that removing more than 2 from the list of 6 in quick succession means that whole system get's sent into spiral of doom (we are still on track of that spiral at the ending of IBS) We know that we need something, to do the work of balancing ambient magic levels across the globe, and we have strong indication that Aurene is not going to be enough.

Therefore there is alot of explaining needing to be done to try to fit aurene's death into that premise without universe going boom.

20 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

I fail to see how. Care to elaborate?

Aurene at the end of IBS, going crazy and needing to be killed off, is throwing away all of the setup she had over the years. Brining in what "can" be achieved with killing of characters in different settings, is not relevant to that. Hence you were doing very fancy polemics there.

22 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

Also, GW2 havin ""it's best years ahead of it" is no reason for Aurene to live.

It is a reason for tyria to not get get out of hand on the whole balance of magic thing. And at the current point of story, aurene getting killed would only lead to that.

24 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

Aurene living is a detriment to GW2's story, hence she needs to die.

For the moment being Aurene living is necessary for GW2 story to have any semblance of sense, and she could be easilly sidelined post EoD.

25 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

No. Aurene is too powerful. That alone is enough to have her die ion order to feel any tension again, without 1-upping the stakes. Also, she is a bad character and combines many tropes.

And yet, since she got into her "too powerfull" state we already had an arc (tho deeply flawed) that did manage tension, while actually stepping down a notch on threat level, as explained in my previous post. And tension can be easilly mantained by simply Aurene not having a point to interfere (i.e. whichever is the conflict commander is engaging, it does not threaten the magical balance, even if commander died)

29 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

Yes, and the only reason they were allowed to do so is because of Aurene sitting on her kitten and doing nothing for a long time. Because the writers knew, she is too freaking powerful.

They were allowed to do so, because Aurene has alot of personal reasons to not try to engage right away. Bonus points for brute force being no solution to the issue - no matter hwo powerfull aurene was, without deus ex machina of "I ignore other ED's weaknesses" she would be unable to win a fight against either jormag, nor primordus. They had to get brought to similar level and forced to confront each other. And even if Aurene didn't have her personal issues (trying to figure out "how to her job", and how to resolve the jormag-primordy situation without sending the whole system out of whack, just to name a few) the best we could count on would be army of prismatic minions doing DRM's for us (or with us).

33 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

Does it? A scheming dragon that certainly is up to no good with aurene sitting around is the epitomy of the "This is fine" meme.

Only if you didn't pay attention to why Aurene sits most of it out.....

34 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

Well, the solution wasn't that far away from that. We smacked the dragons with friendship-beams while Aurene ganked their healing supply.

Mechanics of the fight aside, what we did storywise in there. was bringing both of ED's into same "power" level with controling local ley siphons, and then forced disconnect between them and their champions, so that they have no other choice than to engage each other directly. Aurene role in this was luring them in, and controling flow of magic within vincinity of the fight to ensure we reach our goals. It still took Jormag and primordus engaging each other head-on to end any of them.

38 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

And those reason seem forced. Anet wants bothe: They want to have a character that is caring and supportive and that everyone loves without her earning it by doing something. Because if she did anything, nothing could stop her. Thus the writers need to come up with shallow reason for her sitting on her kitten.

Depending on exact bit of story those reasos may be made to seem forced, but could also be written to be perfectly reasonable. The ones in IBS I find about fine - Aurene had no point in trying to fight either of ED's head on, and her presence anywhere forced escalation of conflict, hence she sat in her lair, while sending away her minions followers to deal with protection of innocents, until she finds solution to her dillema. In the end, she decides, that there can be no balance with jormag and primordus around. and that's exact moment when she get's personally involved.

 

And even if we assume that Aurene is never going to let commander die, it does not mean she is going to personally intervene to make sure commander never fails - after all she has her duties of balancing magic levels in whole world to uphold, do you really think she will have time to engage everytime commander tries to bite more then can chew? I would say that best we can hope for in cases of commander being in immediate loss of life, would be her pulling commander out, scolding them for being reckless, and letting them away.

Also, there is alot of stories AN could be telling where "stakes" and tension has nothing to do with either commander livelyhood, nor global balance of magic. In which sotries even trying to get aurene involved would be actually forced.

[EdwinLi.1284]

I do wonder when the Elder Dragon story ends, how will each character retire from being part of the new story Saga set after the Elder Dragon Saga if they all live.

At this point my best guess they may use the conditions certain characters are going through as the reason.

Aurene probably going to stay in Core Tyria region to help manage and rebuild the core regions, Elona, and Cantha now that the Elder Dragons are no longer threat to the world.

Braham may retire due to side effects from when he was corrupted now showing so he may no long be able to fight long term. Thus retiring for a life less focused on fighting and more home settling.

Taimi and Gorrik may retire so they can focus on researching a solution for Taimi's condition while becoming a publisher for a new book containing knowledge they learned during their time with the Commander.

 

Rytlock may return to the Charr homeland to resolve unfinished personal things he felt needed to be finished after being gone for so long now that his life long mission to end the Elder Dragon threat is over.

 

Kasmeer and Marjory may retire to focus on their careers they are establishing now but Kasmeer may return once in a while due to her position as a political representitves of Kryta now.

It will also be a bit interesting to see how the Commander will handle a new journey in the new storyline now that his/her old friends and allies are no longer journeying with him/her.

Edited August 31, 2021 by EdwinLi.1284

[Imba.9451]

2 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

ah right, the bit of foreshadow hidden in the one only mode where the target audience is not going to care about story foreshadowing.

But it's still there. And some people cared. The amount of people caring does not define wether it`s good or bad.

2 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

That ain't setup, that's foreshadowing, and even if we count that in, Lazarus has no setup comparatively to aurene post-IBS, and Joko, while faring slightly better is still nowhere close enough.

I am not exactly sure what kind of a "single aspect of a story" you are refering in here to here, but the only issue with an all-powerfull being present in the story is how you play around it.

With single aspect of a story, I mean Aurene here, Aurene there. Unless a character is really likeable, this gets tedious. And even if a character is likeable, being exposed to this character for a long amount of time will eventually wear interest down.

2 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

And still JOKO IS A VILLAIN. You keep ignoring that. (And a villain with not even half the set-up)

Villain or not, a setup ending in an unsatisfying conclusion does feel... well, unsatisfactory.

2 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

I rechecked, and you are indeed correct in here, the poster who made the claim of "ideal ending" was Bristingr.5034 and I confused your response to Sajuuk's response to his claim as same person defending the idea. You have my apology in here for that.

So now I will address the parts of your response that with that in mind makes sense to be still addresed, in no particular order 😉

kitten happens, np.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

I would disaggree with "the balance" being poorly explained mcguffin - we know that there is a certain amoung of "ambient" magic levels that is good for life. We do know that EDs remove magic from the ecosystem by devouring it, and then slowly release it back and 6 of them seems to be fairly close to optimal amount for the task. We also knwo that no ambient magic means no life, and that too much of it, is equivalent of trying to living in highly irradiated area. We know that removing more than 2 from the list of 6 in quick succession means that whole system get's sent into spiral of doom (we are still on track of that spiral at the ending of IBS) We know that we need something, to do the work of balancing ambient magic levels across the globe, and we have strong indication that Aurene is not going to be enough.

Therefore there is alot of explaining needing to be done to try to fit aurene's death into that premise without universe going boom.

Thats the problem though, the balance and magic is a very soft magic system. Wich is not inherently bad, but need to be handled carefully to not throw in some Deus Ex Machina and say "A wizard did it!". I am not saying that it can't be handled well. It surely could. I simply do not trust ANet on this regard.

2 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Aurene at the end of IBS, going crazy and needing to be killed off, is throwing away all of the setup she had over the years. Brining in what "can" be achieved with killing of characters in different settings, is not relevant to that. Hence you were doing very fancy polemics there.

But I never suggested Aurene going crazy, or did I? Hence I wasn't doing polemics there.

2 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

It is a reason for tyria to not get get out of hand on the whole balance of magic thing. And at the current point of story, aurene getting killed would only lead to that.

For the moment being Aurene living is necessary for GW2 story to have any semblance of sense, and she could be easilly sidelined post EoD.

For the moment, yes. I agree on this. But a solution has to be found, and basically having an all-mighty elder dragon who you just need to call does not help to create any tension with whatever threat comes after the ED's.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

And yet, since she got into her "too powerfull" state we already had an arc (tho deeply flawed) that did manage tension, while actually stepping down a notch on threat level, as explained in my previous post. And tension can be easilly mantained by simply Aurene not having a point to interfere (i.e. whichever is the conflict commander is engaging, it does not threaten the magical balance, even if commander died)

I would disagree, I felt like her holding back was incredibly forced. But this may also be because of how poorly IBS was handled.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Only if you didn't pay attention to why Aurene sits most of it out.....

I did, and I explained already: I think her behaviour felt forced. It was clear, that Jormag wasn't up to any good. Her hesitation actually conflicts the character that was established up to that point.

2 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Mechanics of the fight aside, what we did storywise in there. was bringing both of ED's into same "power" level with controling local ley siphons, and then forced disconnect between them and their champions, so that they have no other choice than to engage each other directly. Aurene role in this was luring them in, and controling flow of magic within vincinity of the fight to ensure we reach our goals. It still took Jormag and primordus engaging each other head-on to end any of them.

True, but it's still the brute force method: Killing them.

2 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Depending on exact bit of story those reasos may be made to seem forced, but could also be written to be perfectly reasonable. The ones in IBS I find about fine - Aurene had no point in trying to fight either of ED's head on, and her presence anywhere forced escalation of conflict, hence she sat in her lair, while sending away her minions followers to deal with protection of innocents, until she finds solution to her dillema. In the end, she decides, that there can be no balance with jormag and primordus around. and that's exact moment when she get's personally involved.

Like I said, maybe it's because of how poorly IBS was executed, but I feel like, while it does make sense how you described it, the game did a bad job to convey this in an engaging way.

2 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

 

And even if we assume that Aurene is never going to let commander die, it does not mean she is going to personally intervene to make sure commander never fails - after all she has her duties of balancing magic levels in whole world to uphold, do you really think she will have time to engage everytime commander tries to bite more then can chew? I would say that best we can hope for in cases of commander being in immediate loss of life, would be her pulling commander out, scolding them for being reckless, and letting them away.

That would downplay the player character however, just for the sake of keeping cohesion for aurene somehow intact. Wich is a direction I do not want the game to be going. Aurene is young and should not be handed the mentor-status this easily.

2 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Also, there is alot of stories AN could be telling where "stakes" and tension has nothing to do with either commander livelyhood, nor global balance of magic. In which sotries even trying to get aurene involved would be actually forced.

Personal hardships for certain characters can make for decent stories, but a real "threat" can not be established without getting Aurene out of the way. Well, maybe a civil war, as Aurene would not want to take sides, but nothing that the races of Tyria would have to face together, unless it is something much more powerful than aurene, further establishing story-powercreep.

 

I am fine with a very serious threat that is objectively less powerfull than elder dragons, but in order for it to create stakes and tension, there must not be any ways to easily deal with them. (Skritt-Mega-Hivemind, a man can dream.)

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

15 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

But it's still there. And some people cared. The amount of people caring does not define wether it`s good or bad.

To be precise here, I did that remark on raids, not to paint them as bad or sth, but a bit very well hidden - an excuse to why I tend to forget about details of it 😉 Most I remember at any point from raids story is "white mantle foreshadow", and "White Mantle founder backstory"...

 

43 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

But I never suggested Aurene going crazy, or did I? Hence I wasn't doing polemics there.

You did not said it out right, but you were critiquing the criticism of that statement, and if you take correction on me confusing people when I made the statement, and fix the "you" to "them", then your response does give off that feeling 😉 

 

Also my definitions may be rusty, but wasn;t "polemics" just a very fancy word for discussion/argument/debate? 🤔

 

17 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

With single aspect of a story, I mean Aurene here, Aurene there. Unless a character is really likeable, this gets tedious. And even if a character is likeable, being exposed to this character for a long amount of time will eventually wear interest down.

Ok, I see your point here, fair enough.

 

51 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

Villain or not, a setup ending in an unsatisfying conclusion does feel... well, unsatisfactory.

Ah I see that was your angle with bringing those two up. I was thinking you were trying to bring them as example of "long setup, just to be killed off".

So now that I understand the point you were trying to made there: just because AN was ready to sacrifice satisfactory send off, just o be dealt with gw1 loose threads, does not mean they will make same mistake on the character they nurtured from hatchling within this story, and thought important enough, to have whole number of legendaries just after her (amulet, and gen3 weps), not to mention collectors statue promoted alongside EoD preorder.

 

18 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

True, but it's still the brute force method: Killing them.

Well, yes, but not through aurene's might, but through their own. Aurene only served as catalyst to force the engagement on even terms.

19 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

Like I said, maybe it's because of how poorly IBS was executed, but I feel like, while it does make sense how you described it, the game did a bad job to convey this in an engaging way.

I do agree that the setup of the dragonstorm map was done pretty poorly in-game. Especially how quickly the plan has formed after conclusion was made that they need to be dealt with. Also....

 

23 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

I would disagree, I felt like her holding back was incredibly forced. But this may also be because of how poorly IBS was handled.

Well perception may vary between people, for me it made perfect sense. My perception here could be affected, by: me having less than usuall spare time or will to overthink it (I am overall much less invested in game story than I used to be since that mess of a writing called LWS4E5: All or Nothing) and by the fact that I sort of got to work on big chunks of IBS kind of late. I only started drizzlewood while DRMs were already rolling and I think we were 4 factions deep before I got to those. So my playing "sessions" there were like: prologue, break from LWS content, all of bjora, another break from LWS content, Visions of the past, long break from LWS content, No Quarter -> half of champions, daily DRMs, Champions: Balance, daily DRMs, Champions: Judgement. I could see that reception of certain events could differ for people that did story as it released, and for people that did whole IBS back-to-back.

 

I agree that Champions was wildly mishandled, and I dislike how loss of another pair of EDs impact upon the all was not even aknowledged until Taimi and Gorrik dialogues during LWS rerun achievements progression.

32 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

That would downplay the player character however, just for the sake of keeping cohesion for aurene somehow intact. Wich is a direction I do not want the game to be going. Aurene is young and should not be handed the mentor-status this easily.

Well I didn't mean scolding in terms of "mentor-status" but more of scolding your boss gives to you when you are overconfident because you happen to be assistant of that particular boss. And even that scenario was assuming that Aurene would be able to pull commander out from danger situation - she seemed unable to intervene with the injury at the end of shadow in the Ice.

36 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

Personal hardships for certain characters can make for decent stories, but a real "threat" can not be established without getting Aurene out of the way. Well, maybe a civil war, as Aurene would not want to take sides, but nothing that the races of Tyria would have to face together, unless it is something much more powerful than aurene, further establishing story-powercreep.

Personally once ED story arc is finished I would love to return to the scopes of story that does not involve the "whole world has unite against this threat". And I think I am not alone in the sentiment of being mildly tired of always having "whole world or more" at stake. And once you get threats that are not world-enders, entities like aurene, can be easilly sidelined without their integrity suffering.

 

39 minutes ago, Imba.9451 said:

I am fine with a very serious threat that is objectively less powerfull than elder dragons, but in order for it to create stakes and tension, there must not be any ways to easily deal with them. (Skritt-Mega-Hivemind, a man can dream.)

I agree here - as a matter of fact I was already refering to this, sort of - I see alot of potential for stories where the sheer power of our self-raised overlord is not simply applicable (or where her conviction to primarily protect and heal stops her from acting)

 

Anyway to wrap the whole thing up: I do think that after EoD, we will see Aurene back out from story, be it by her duties to the world forcing her to distance herself from mortal affairs, or her sacrifice to make the new balancing mechanism work, but I highly doubt the latter, since that would deny us pay off on kralks words "she is the first of a new kind". And I definitelly don't see her just going crazy and needing to be killed as any acceptable ending to EoD.

 

PS. sorry for misorder of quotes, we reached fragmentation here high enough for me to keep getting confused on "which part of the post I stopped at xD

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

On 8/2/2021 at 2:15 PM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

I love Aurene. She has her flaws but she is not even 5y old. Give her some room to grow. 

 

Braham. Yeah..... 

 

Taimi had her deus ex machina moment but that was a long time ago. I think she's OK currently. 

 

Marjory and kasmeer. 

Can you guys just get married? I like the 2 lovebirds but after such a long time, maybe a next step in the relationship is needed.

 

Rytlock.... It never clicked for me with him. 

I guess showing emotions is a good thing but it rather have a bog standard old War Veteran who teaches you how to get kitten done. 

 

That's why I love Canach. 

He gets kitten done. He is useful. 

 

Canach is the opposite of Braham for me. 

 

I've been in love with Canach ever since PoF. Dude gets some of the best dialogue there is - not to mention the voice acting is stellar all around.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

10 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

I do wonder when the Elder Dragon story ends, how will each character retire from being part of the new story Saga set after the Elder Dragon Saga if they all live.

At this point my best guess they may use the conditions certain characters are going through as the reason.

Aurene probably going to stay in Core Tyria region to help manage and rebuild the core regions, Elona, and Cantha now that the Elder Dragons are no longer threat to the world.

Braham may retire due to side effects from when he was corrupted now showing so he may no long be able to fight long term. Thus retiring for a life less focused on fighting and more home settling.

Taimi and Gorrik may retire so they can focus on researching a solution for Taimi's condition while becoming a publisher for a new book containing knowledge they learned during their time with the Commander.

 

Rytlock may return to the Charr homeland to resolve unfinished personal things he felt needed to be finished after being gone for so long now that his life long mission to end the Elder Dragon threat is over.

 

Kasmeer and Marjory may retire to focus on their careers they are establishing now but Kasmeer may return once in a while due to her position as a political representitves of Kryta now.

It will also be a bit interesting to see how the Commander will handle a new journey in the new storyline now that his/her old friends and allies are no longer journeying with him/her.

Why do all the previous existing characters need to be retired/replaced?  That sounds pretty lame.

[Imba.9451]

20 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

To be precise here, I did that remark on raids, not to paint them as bad or sth, but a bit very well hidden - an excuse to why I tend to forget about details of it 😉 Most I remember at any point from raids story is "white mantle foreshadow", and "White Mantle founder backstory"...

While I agree, the story was hidden to most players, the teased events were interesting. But raid stories are a whole nother ebast to tackle. I myself only read them up back them, because I never did raids until recently.

20 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

 

You did not said it out right, but you were critiquing the criticism of that statement, and if you take correction on me confusing people when I made the statement, and fix the "you" to "them", then your response does give off that feeling 😉 

That was never my intention. I usually put into words what I mean, and if I don't, I do not have anything particular in mind.

 

20 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Also my definitions may be rusty, but wasn;t "polemics" just a very fancy word for discussion/argument/debate? 🤔

I don't know if the word is used differently in english, but in german it is used when someone make an undifferentiated claim, tries to downplay a complex situation into one simple factor or creates strawmen.

 

20 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

 

 

 

Ah I see that was your angle with bringing those two up. I was thinking you were trying to bring them as example of "long setup, just to be killed off".

So now that I understand the point you were trying to made there: just because AN was ready to sacrifice satisfactory send off, just o be dealt with gw1 loose threads, does not mean they will make same mistake on the character they nurtured from hatchling within this story, and thought important enough, to have whole number of legendaries just after her (amulet, and gen3 weps), not to mention collectors statue promoted alongside EoD preorder.

I do not consider a sendoff as a mistake by itself. Just a rushed sendoff to close loose threads.

Also, her legendary weapons might hold more meaning if she dies. Same for the statue.

20 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

 

Well I didn't mean scolding in terms of "mentor-status" but more of scolding your boss gives to you when you are overconfident because you happen to be assistant of that particular boss. And even that scenario was assuming that Aurene would be able to pull commander out from danger situation - she seemed unable to intervene with the injury at the end of shadow in the Ice.

Well, she COULD have intervened the moment we found out that Bangar wanted to bring Jormag into the equation. But she didn't. Despite everyone knowing that Bangars plan probably wasn't very smart and would endanger pretty much everyone.

Generally, Jormags whole theme of manipulation was handled rather poorly and resulted in nothing anyway. Another wasted opportunity.

20 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Personally once ED story arc is finished I would love to return to the scopes of story that does not involve the "whole world has unite against this threat". And I think I am not alone in the sentiment of being mildly tired of always having "whole world or more" at stake. And once you get threats that are not world-enders, entities like aurene, can be easilly sidelined without their integrity suffering.

I disagree here, because sidelining her means she is still there for potentially re-draftig her into the story when it's convenient.

But aside from that, this is exactly my point: I want relatable villains, not eldritch abominations that end reality. Or at least not always. Sometimes it makes sense, if the game is set up for it, like Bloodborne. But not as a simple 1-up.

20 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

 

I agree here - as a matter of fact I was already refering to this, sort of - I see alot of potential for stories where the sheer power of our self-raised overlord is not simply applicable (or where her conviction to primarily protect and heal stops her from acting)

My favorite thing still would be the EoD antagonist to be the equivalent of our commander - a person who just became kitten due to the stuff he or she has done.

20 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

 

Anyway to wrap the whole thing up: I do think that after EoD, we will see Aurene back out from story, be it by her duties to the world forcing her to distance herself from mortal affairs, or her sacrifice to make the new balancing mechanism work, but I highly doubt the latter, since that would deny us pay off on kralks words "she is the first of a new kind". And I definitelly don't see her just going crazy and needing to be killed as any acceptable ending to EoD.

I  guess less Aurene is something and better than nothing, no matter how exactly this comes to be. Because as a plotdevive, she destroys tension, and as a character, she is basically Jesus.

 

[EdwinLi.1284]

On 8/31/2021 at 8:16 PM, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Why do all the previous existing characters need to be retired/replaced?  That sounds pretty lame.

because their journey has ended.

Every journey has its end and for Dragon's Watch, that journey ends once the Elder Dragon story ends. It is fitting that they may feel it is time for them to move on to their own personal things and personal life pursuits once the very goal they started adventuring with the commander has been achieved. 

However, they can always return in the new Storyline once in a while as a way to either bring them slowly back into the story as main characters again or just to cameo once in a while. There is no need to slap them into the new storyline suddenly when their reason for forming Dragon's watch has been achieved since it will make it feel as if their entire life centers around being the commander's companion and they have no personal life needs themselves.

Edited September 6, 2021 by EdwinLi.1284

[Mik.3401]

I don’t look forward to more of her, the very concept of us raising a dragon and bonding with it is so lame and uninspired. To me dragons are all about their own business rather than helping little humans in their affairs. 
it’s just a naive and family friendly story telling

[DaZeeHero.5210]

Aurene was cuter as a baby but I think maybe she should  grow even more and ascend to a higher plane as part of the plan to make the world no longer need elder dragons.

That way she's not directly involved in everything but still not "gone" so to speak, just watching from the mists or wherever.

Also Taimi should get cured but then leave active dragons watch duty becuase she gets a  prestigious academic job among her people, an honor and source of resources for her research she obviously wont turn down.

She could then pop up now and then in story to help us with SCIENCE stuff and maybe even join us on an adventure now and then, but leave room to meet new characters.

Edited September 20, 2021 by DaZeeHero.5210

[genjonah.1253]

On 8/2/2021 at 6:48 AM, Dante.1763 said:

Which, would make you the villian. The "Pact Commander" who we play as through the story isnt our character, so what we would do doesnt matter much. They are the force for good in the game.

 

Which is why most people who do roleplay, myself included, disregard the entire story. It isnt our characters story. Amana Firehide never killed Zhaitan, the pact commander did. My Priory Arcanist, Ember Wandertooth never went into Mordremoths mind, the pact commander did.

 

Once you remove your character from the story and play it as if you are playing someone elses it gets alot better. They cant cover all the choices players want to make in game.

My character is a part of the Reformed Margonites 😛

[DaZeeHero.5210]

It's our characters story when we play the story missions. if we roleplay outside them, it's an alternate universe version out of necessity. since there cannot be hundreds of thousands of alternate pact commanders at once. however the best way to handle it is simply never to bring up a "pact commander" in roleplay or if it comes up at all, everyone has a different rumor of what they look like.

 

"I hear the commander is a 10 foot tall charr with teeth the size of dinner plates" "Oh yeah I hear the commander is a human woman barely 5 feet tall!" "Oh yeah, the commander is definitely an Asura, who else would be smart enough?"

[quaniesan.8497]

The name "Aurene" ....  Lol.  It's like they got this name from  thebump.com  on the top 100 popular girl's name. 

Just a few season back, she was still chirping .  Now she talks like your mom looking your report card.   

She's whatever.  I don't mind her.   It's hard not to notice that she's something endearing among Anet lore writers. They try really hard to shove on us the message "she's our baby".  So much so that her character arc is very one-dimensional.   But I would say that this narrative strategy might backfire because the audience might grow sick of it. 

 

Off topic for abit, I noted that there is this.... underlying passive feminist aggressiveness in gw2 story telling.   

If you haven't noticed:  The girls' casts are prominent:   Aurene - the Jesus  elder dragon. Taimi - girl, super genius just shy of being Scarlet.  And speaking of  Scarlet - even a female villian is a Mary sue.  Caithe - your cool lone wolf heroine. Kas/jory - the female adults in the room.  Jennah - your majesty the queen with surprising super power, who led her boy by the nose. That's just to name a few. And super on-the-nose multiple lesbian relationships. 

 

The boys:   braham - he's a guy, so he's gotta be childish, hothead and annoying.  Rytlock, he's a guy, but he's a cat, so we'll give him break but he shouldn't get much major screentime.  Logan - your mother-approved boy:   willing to abandon his guild and endanger the entire world so he could answer to his girl.        The rest of the boys: they are all annoying asuras. 

Very empowering, Anet

 

Regardless, i typically tried my best to not get these kind of storytelling with agenda gets to me,  I just focus getting past  the stories asap so I can resume my daily grind routines and pvp.   If I could be honest, Anet story telling is very one-dimensional for the most part.  Plotwists typically just make you go "oh?" at best.  You don't get the kind of  Imperial vs. the stormcloaks arguments,  for example.   I'm sure there are people being perfectly fine with things, well I won't try to convince them the otherwise.

Edited September 21, 2021 by quaniesan.8497

[DaZeeHero.5210]

Isn't there some shadiness about queen Jenna that implies logan was magically compelled to help her but wont tell anyone because aside from the occasional shady behavior she has been a good queen for the humans and made good leadership decisions?

 

We could do with some more good male characters in the story for sure. no one likes mary sues of any gender, and when they are all of one gender it makes it even worse.

 

Braham is a norn. Norn have a tendency to be thickheaded but steadfast allies, add his angst over his mom being killed by a plant monster and all that.

 

Would definitely like to see another good male supporting cast or 2, preferably human, so you cant say "But rhytlock is a cat"

[Bookah pls.9352]

I don't really mind Aurene, it's the voice i can't stand.

 

Nothing against the voice actor or anything, i just find the voice of Aurene to be so wrongly cast, i burst out laughing first time she spoke. It's a voice i'd expect for one of the female human gods or something  not really a dragon.

[DemonCrypto.6792]

i don't mind aurene, but her arc is done, so i would like if possible becomming a background storie, where she can do stuff by herself.

With that the commandant our character could go back to is adventuring root, reducing the scale ,making the last dragon as a kreeping presence like a strom, natural disaster , who scare the world around it.
Making you the personne taking on little thing (at human scale)  and aurene in the background taking the big things (but still letting some trace of her doing, not like icebrood) and little by little build up to greater things for you character to do.
separation of  you and aurene ,i think would be really benefitial because aurene is a macguffin and a deus ex machina, to not redo a dragonstorm (that was the most strange and worst way to kill two of the best antagonist of  the game), and doing so will let the storie breath because we wouldn't have a "big win bouton" at hand. 

[genjonah.1253]

I wonder how they’ll have her interact with Kuunavang- a dragon that is much older, much wiser, and now, much LESS powerful

[Gibson.4036]

I lost connection to her when she got large enough to sit around all the time in front of a pool and essentially turn into a quest dispenser.

I liked her before that, and was even emotionally affected by her apparent death.

I remember conversation questioning the use of the elder dragons back before GW2 launch. It’s really hard to be engaged when your villain is essentially a force of nature. The scope is so large. I never really cared about Zhaitan or defeating him.

The turning of the Sylvari made the fight against Mordy more interesting because it brought things back down to a mortal level.

Balthazar was so “Imma crazy God” I didn’t have much connection with him either, but crazy, nasty Joko was fun to fight and defeat.

The more relatable, more human like the villain, the more fun.

Aurene fits similarly in that I can relate to this young, playful dragon. I was moved by Vlasts recorded messages. The closer Aurene gets to divine force, so to speak, the harder it is to relate.

One other thing that might help is some conflict between the commander and Aurene. An argument, something they struggle over and through would help the relationship have more depth.

Braham’s pouting and grumbling at the commander made a wonderful arc to the affectionate message left on the transmitter. I was totally frustrated with him during his sulk, but that was the entire point and setup for his change later.

[Blur.3465]

I like Aurene. She is ok and she had a lot of development. From little hatchling, to 'teenager' and then young adult. She has history, is connected with Glint and Kralky and we had a nice journey with her.
What annoys me are all other characters. I don't like a single one! Braham, Taimi, Kasmeer, Marjory, Rytlock...just no, no please...let's get some new characters in x_x 

I have to admit, though, my favorite episodes are "Long Live the Lich" and "All or Nothing". These two had a lot of interesting things going on and I seriously hope for more serious twists/events like that.
I am just sad that we killed Palawa Joko so soon... 😞 he was my favorite villain and had so much potential to keep cooking things up for the Commander. 
In episode "All or Nothing", the shock factor was insanely good, the entire episode has that beautiful yet tragic feel to it and I feel it's one of the best episodes they've ever done. Story kept me captivated and I just couldn't get over myself when I experienced that ending. Music also adds to it, it's just so precious!

Anyway, I sure as heck hope that EoD embraces a more serious approach with storytelling; that means no annoying childish voices and not too much Taimi. 
I'd also like if we as Commanders didn't have much influence in Cantha, more like...starting off from 0 there and just surviving...if you know what I mean? 

Edited October 11, 2021 by Blur.3465

[Gibson.4036]

On 10/11/2021 at 11:47 AM, Blur.3465 said:

I'd also like if we as Commanders didn't have much influence in Cantha, more like...starting off from 0 there and just surviving...if you know what I mean? 

This would be a really nice shift in the story. Commander shows up, and Canthans are like, "Who are you?"

It'd be a nice reset from the position our characters have been placed in where at this point everyone should be greeting us with "What can I do for you?"

It'd be even more awesome if they could manage to write it that the commander gets to deal with the next threat without most people even realizing they did. So at the end, there's the satisfaction of having saved the world, but the bittersweetness of still being just another foreigner to most people in Cantha.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Gibson.4036

[witcher.3197]

On 8/2/2021 at 12:56 PM, Tyncale.1629 said:

I would love some new cast. Marjory and Kasmere, meh, Aurene, meh, Braham and Rytlock, yuck. Taimi, I do kinda like her but she gets old too. I am mostly fed up with the Commander though, he is such a goodie two-shoes. 

A new cast would do wonders for the story.

New areas of the world don't get to shine because we are always surrounded by the same people. It'd be nice for once if we got to hang out with a group of locals when we go to a place like Cantha, instead of sticking with the same old group all the time.

And of course it'd be easier for new players to get involved without having to catch up with a decade's worth of story.

Edited October 13, 2021 by witcher.3197