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Analytics should not drive the direction of the game...

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  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I didn't respond to the OP, I responded to this:

    @Rasimir.6239 said:
    The numbers are able to show what people enjoy, as well as what people see rewarding.

    I'm still waiting for someone to show me what those numbers that show player enjoyment are.

    First of all you are ignoring the context of that sentence, which was a reply to somebody claiming that numbers only show what content is rewarding.

    As an example of numbers showing something different, take me: I play a lot of dungeons, both with friends but more often pugging via lfg. I've finished every last dungeon-related achievement and collection years ago, and dungeon tokens pile up in my wallet without me spending them on anything (and to an amount that doesn't make sense to save up if I had a specific use for them in mind). What do those numbers show? Certainly not that I play dungeons because of the rewards. Of course it's a guess that I might play them because I enjoy them, but it's probably the most likely explanation there is, given the circumstances.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:
    But the point is that data can be taken as a meassure of overall enjoyment. But its more complex than high number x means high enjoyment. And maybe thats why you dont seem to get it and we fail to provide meaningful examples.

    Maybe. I still believe the only way to get some "enjoyment analytics" is by either polling the community directly, forum posts or responses on social media and it's not something that can be done by statistics gathered in-game. Those can show popularity, but popularity and enjoyment can be very very different.

    Popularity and rewards can be very different, too. Judging from my friends list, SAB is very popular right now, although the people in question have already finished all the achievements and collections available in their difficulty of choice. That's certainly not a metric of SAB being rewarding, but just popular.

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    People seem to be arguing that Anet only uses one, specific set of data for their analytics. I'm sure that they gather a lot more than they could possibly use.

    Well said. The art isn't gathering numbers, it's knowing how to use them.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    I don't think you understand analytics, there is no such thing as 'enjoyment analytics' and in fact it's being used as a strawman argument in this thread.

    I do not think you understood the argument then. It was a very simple question: can analytics/data (objective data as you said) be used to measure enjoyment?
    Since there is no such thing as "enjoyment analytics" I guess your answer is a no.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rasimir.6239 said:
    What do those numbers show?

    From a statistics viewpoint? Nothing much. Look at it this way: how many players do what you do, and how many players farm Silverwastes RIBA daily? I guess if the numbers showed more people playing dungeons, we'd have more dungeons right? Isn't that the point? To offer content that the highest number of players, or the highest percentage of the playerbase plays.

    Certainly not that I play dungeons because of the rewards. Of course it's a guess that I might play them because I enjoy them, but it's probably the most likely explanation there is, given the circumstances.

    Tell me, do you like playing in Tangled Depths (your favorite map) more than running Ascalonian Catacombs (since you enjoy running dungeons), or the other way around? How would you tell Arenanet which of these you like more? Is there even a way to quantify "enjoyment"?

    Popularity and rewards can be very different, too. Judging from my friends list, SAB is very popular right now, although the people in question have already finished all the achievements and collections available in their difficulty of choice. That's certainly not a metric of SAB being rewarding, but just popular.

    Yes indeed.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    I don't think you understand analytics, there is no such thing as 'enjoyment analytics' and in fact it's being used as a strawman argument in this thread.

    I do not think you understood the argument then. It was a very simple question: can analytics/data (objective data as you said) be used to measure enjoyment?
    Since there is no such thing as "enjoyment analytics" I guess your answer is a no.

    analytics are not used to measure enjoyment, its a measure of data that can be used to infer enjoyment. , as i've said the use of 'enjoyment' as an analytic measurement is a strawman arguement. analytics can however objectively measure how attractive content is to players, and its obvious that you can make conclusions as per the examples I gave. If people enjoy content then they will play it.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    If people enjoy content then they will play it.

    Right, so the most enjoyable part of this game is moving around the Silverwastes doing chest runs. Good to know

  • @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    If people enjoy content then they will play it.

    Right, so the most enjoyable part of this game is moving around the Silverwastes doing chest runs. Good to know

    We're talking analytics, not arithmetic. Just because a can lead to b does in no way imply that any specific variety of b is proof of the involvement of a.

    i use analytics to help design banking portals, i know what it is.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2020

    interesting, maybe you need to lookup analytic platforms, i cant help you if you don't know what you don't know.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    i use analytics to help design banking portals, i know what it is.

    On a more serious tone. Since you use analytics, care to answer the question asked in the previous page, which exactly type of analytics/data can be used to tell if one piece of content is more enjoyable than another. I never got an answer to that but since you know about them you might have an answer. All I got was "quick achievement completion"

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2020

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    interesting, maybe you need to lookup analytic platforms, i cant help you if you don't know what you don't know.

    Well since you know about analytic platforms you can give an example of data used to identify if @Rasimir.6239 likes Ascalonian Catacombs or Tangled Depths more.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    i use analytics to help design banking portals, i know what it is.

    On a more serious tone. Since you use analytics, care to answer the question asked in the previous page, which exactly type of analytics/data can be used to tell if one piece of content is more enjoyable than another. I never got an answer to that but since you know about them you might have an answer. All I got was "quick achievement completion"

    Tbh the only way i could see that kind of data being gathered is through surveys(which they do send out sometimes.)

    Me having(for example) a few PVP and Raid achievements doesnt mean i enjoy those modes. Me having almost all the achievements in the story doesnt mean anything either. So if they are just using that data....oof...but i doubt thats all they use. I wouldnt be surprised if they can track which maps have the most players, what maps are played the most, what activities get done on those maps the most etc.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2020

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    On a more serious tone. Since you use analytics, care to answer the question asked in the previous page, which exactly type of analytics/data can be used to tell if one piece of content is more enjoyable than another. I never got an answer to that but since you know about them you might have an answer. All I got was "quick achievement completion"

    Tbh the only way i could see that kind of data being gathered is through surveys(which they do send out sometimes.)

    Me having(for example) a few PVP and Raid achievements doesnt mean i enjoy those modes. Me having almost all the achievements in the story doesnt mean anything either. So if they are just using that data....oof...but i doubt thats all they use.

    I know, and I said so multiple times already. But there are so many gurus on these forums that claim to know so much about analytics that disagree with that. And when asked to provide which type of data can do the same job as a survey/poll or reading social media/forums, they simply vanish.

    I wouldnt be surprised if they can track which maps have the most players, what maps are played the most, what activities get done on those maps the most etc.

    Of course they do, back in the beta weekend event they posted "Heat maps" that showed where most players were during the beta. Bright colors meant lots of players were at one place, no colors at all meant there were no players in that area. Popularity is very easy to track with proper data, and they do have that kind of data and have shown that they do. It's when it comes to enjoyment and quality that no such data can measure it properly, other than actual community interaction.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    i use analytics to help design banking portals, i know what it is.

    On a more serious tone. Since you use analytics, care to answer the question asked in the previous page, which exactly type of analytics/data can be used to tell if one piece of content is more enjoyable than another. I never got an answer to that but since you know about them you might have an answer. All I got was "quick achievement completion"

    You need to understand the principles involved. Here's a started for 10 if you want to do research.

    https://www.gartner.com/reviews/market/analytics-business-intelligence-platforms

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Etria.3642Etria.3642 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Someone said above that if you have completed all the achievements from SAB yet are still spending time there that it shows you enjoy the content.

    Or you could be farming this limited time opportunity. Glitched weapon prices are bound to go back up after the festival. You also have chances to get orange and blue weapon crates to sell. And there are the weekly rewards. And guild decorations from the fancy furniture coins.

    I personally enjoy spending time in SAB but I am outnumbered in guild by those doing it for mercenary reasons.

    That said, analytics probably form the foundation for polls, to confirm choices.

  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    If people enjoy content then they will play it.

    Right, so the most enjoyable part of this game is moving around the Silverwastes doing chest runs. Good to know

    We're talking analytics, not arithmetic. Just because a can lead to b does in no way imply that any specific variety of b is proof of the involvement of a.

    i use analytics to help design banking portals, i know what it is.

    Sorry if you took it personal, but if you re-read you'll notice that I posted in reply to another person (just included your quote that they replied to for context).

  • Inculpatus cedo.9234Inculpatus cedo.9234 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not sure why there is an argument. It is surely known that the Developers don't only rely on analytics, but a plethora of data/feedback/suggestions/research, to drive the direction of content released.

  • Rukia.4802Rukia.4802 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2020

    @kurfu.5623 said:
    Using Asmongold as a reference to back your arguments totally invalidates whatever point you were trying to make. That guy is an AH.

    Analytics are a valid measure of how many people are participating in the various content available.

    Can you give me any good reason not to listen to asmongold?
    He knows everything about WoW and is pretty knowledgeable on the topic.
    If you don't like his twitch persona thats fine but don't spew bs. You should actually watch the video instead of getting triggered immediately and claiming the OP point invalid, thats pretty childish.

    Here is the original if you want to actually focus on the point of the thread but its much longer

    Analytics alone are terrible and don't tell you much out of context. You need to know what your players think of the content and listen to feedback. Blizzard ignoring feedback and only going by metrics is why the game sucks today.

    GW2 need list:
    GW1 Assassin elite spec
    Option to hide party/squad nameplate
    Particle effect slider/ability to turn friendly player effects off

  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    On a more serious tone. Since you use analytics, care to answer the question asked in the previous page, which exactly type of analytics/data can be used to tell if one piece of content is more enjoyable than another. I never got an answer to that but since you know about them you might have an answer. All I got was "quick achievement completion"

    Tbh the only way i could see that kind of data being gathered is through surveys(which they do send out sometimes.)

    Me having(for example) a few PVP and Raid achievements doesnt mean i enjoy those modes. Me having almost all the achievements in the story doesnt mean anything either. So if they are just using that data....oof...but i doubt thats all they use.

    I know, and I said so multiple times already. But there are so many gurus on these forums that claim to know so much about analytics that disagree with that. And when asked to provide which type of data can do the same job as a survey/poll or reading social media/forums, they simply vanish.

    I think what is happening here, is mostly miscommunication, rather than disagreement. If you're reading carefully enough, no one is actually saying enjoyment is measured by analytical data, rather that analytical data backs up whether people are enjoying themselves, or hint at enjoyment. (Edit: Although reading back, I did phrase it terribly at one point, saying analytical data does show enjoyment but not 100%, by which I didn't mean show as in prove , but more show as in hint at or shine a light on.)

    I wouldnt be surprised if they can track which maps have the most players, what maps are played the most, what activities get done on those maps the most etc.

    Of course they do, back in the beta weekend event they posted "Heat maps" that showed where most players were during the beta. Bright colors meant lots of players were at one place, no colors at all meant there were no players in that area. Popularity is very easy to track with proper data, and they do have that kind of data and have shown that they do. It's when it comes to enjoyment and quality that no such data can measure it properly, other than actual community interaction.

    In fact, enjoyment isn't perfectly measured by social media surveys and the like either. People are incredibly biased and easily influenced. One time they have one favourite, and the other time another. Often enough the newest thing (or one of those newer things). And getting behind the meaning and reading what the community is really saying is a whole job in and of itself. The same way quality and enjoyment also don't always go hand in hand either. A game can be of the highest quality but simply not be enjoying to a person at all.

    (to talk a bit about WoW, maybe WoW was never that good to begin with, and game metrics have little to do with it. :p)

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2020

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    If someone is doing something that is completely optional, why wouldn't we assume that they are experiencing some level of "enjoyment".

    Because enjoyment tied to the content is not the only reason someone might be doing the content. They might dislike the content but be there for the rewards. They might not care about the content, but be there because people they play with are doing that. They might be doing some achievements. The reasons are not limited to one. It's not always so easy to see why content is popular.
    For example, Tarir, while relatively popular, has nowhere close to the popularity of the old Multiloot. In this specific case, we can compare those two examples and can realize easily why one was more popular than the other - it was all about the one thing that was different (no, not enjoyment - rewards). Unfortunately, such comparisons can be hard to come by when all we can compare something with is some different content. There are way too many factors that differ between such cases, so it's usually not so easy to pinpoint the reason (or, the combination of reasons) why one case is popular and other isn't.

    The alternative, that they are experiencing no enjoyment, demands we consider whether they are masochistic, addicted or in some way experiencing a compromised ability to consent or calculate self interest. In the context of gaming, we have to face that possibly.

    Self interest other than enjoyment is very often the case, though. So, how exactly can you tell the difference?

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 27, 2020

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    If someone is doing something that is completely optional, why wouldn't we assume that they are experiencing some level of "enjoyment". The alternative, that they are experiencing no enjoyment, demands we consider whether they are masochistic, addicted or in some way experiencing a compromised ability to consent or calculate self interest. In the context of gaming, we have to face that possibly.

    I hate pvp/wvw but do it for the AP. I dont enjoy my time there at all. Saddly, i need that 4k+ AP thats locked behind competitive modes.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    KFC greatly outperforms Popeyes.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashen.2907 said:
    KFC greatly outperforms Popeyes.

    Especially if you're not a fan of spinach.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    On a more serious tone. Since you use analytics, care to answer the question asked in the previous page, which exactly type of analytics/data can be used to tell if one piece of content is more enjoyable than another. I never got an answer to that but since you know about them you might have an answer. All I got was "quick achievement completion"

    Tbh the only way i could see that kind of data being gathered is through surveys(which they do send out sometimes.)

    Me having(for example) a few PVP and Raid achievements doesnt mean i enjoy those modes. Me having almost all the achievements in the story doesnt mean anything either. So if they are just using that data....oof...but i doubt thats all they use.

    I know, and I said so multiple times already. But there are so many gurus on these forums that claim to know so much about analytics that disagree with that. And when asked to provide which type of data can do the same job as a survey/poll or reading social media/forums, they simply vanish.

    I think what is happening here, is mostly miscommunication, rather than disagreement. If you're reading carefully enough, no one is actually saying enjoyment is measured by analytical data, rather that analytical data backs up whether people are enjoying themselves, or hint at enjoyment. (Edit: Although reading back, I did phrase it terribly at one point, saying analytical data does show enjoyment but not 100%, by which I didn't mean show as in prove , but more show as in hint at or shine a light on.)

    I wouldnt be surprised if they can track which maps have the most players, what maps are played the most, what activities get done on those maps the most etc.

    Of course they do, back in the beta weekend event they posted "Heat maps" that showed where most players were during the beta. Bright colors meant lots of players were at one place, no colors at all meant there were no players in that area. Popularity is very easy to track with proper data, and they do have that kind of data and have shown that they do. It's when it comes to enjoyment and quality that no such data can measure it properly, other than actual community interaction.

    In fact, enjoyment isn't perfectly measured by social media surveys and the like either. People are incredibly biased and easily influenced. One time they have one favourite, and the other time another. Often enough the newest thing (or one of those newer things). And getting behind the meaning and reading what the community is really saying is a whole job in and of itself. The same way quality and enjoyment also don't always go hand in hand either. A game can be of the highest quality but simply not be enjoying to a person at all.

    (to talk a bit about WoW, maybe WoW was never that good to begin with, and game metrics have little to do with it. :p)

    Personally I think the miscommunication has more to do with people interpreting disagreement with someone as a war with them. It's quite easily noticable in most of the raid post for example where a vocal minority polarize the topic.

    Their also a topic recently about someone getting banned for two weeks and when other people didn't like their idea of being able to pay of the ban he cursed then to hell in some hindu variant

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    If someone is doing something that is completely optional, why wouldn't we assume that they are experiencing some level of "enjoyment".

    Because enjoyment tied to the content is not the only reason someone might be doing the content. They might dislike the content but be there for the rewards. They might not care about the content, but be there because people they play with are doing that. They might be doing some achievements. The reasons are not limited to one. It's not always so easy to see why content is popular.
    For example, Tarir, while relatively popular, has nowhere close to the popularity of the old Multiloot. In this specific case, we can compare those two examples and can realize easily why one was more popular than the other - it was all about the one thing that was different (no, not enjoyment - rewards). Unfortunately, such comparisons can be hard to come by when all we can compare something with is some different content. There are way too many factors that differ between such cases, so it's usually not so easy to pinpoint the reason (or, the combination of reasons) why one case is popular and other isn't.

    The alternative, that they are experiencing no enjoyment, demands we consider whether they are masochistic, addicted or in some way experiencing a compromised ability to consent or calculate self interest. In the context of gaming, we have to face that possibly.

    Self interest other than enjoyment is very often the case, though. So, how exactly can you tell the difference?

    I understand what you are saying but reject the distinction you seem to be making between self interest and enjoyment and rewards and enjoyment. Again, why wouldn't someone spending time in a zone they don't "enjoy" (this term is being used by many because it is vague and resists an objective and global description) be taken to mean that they "enjoy" rewards more than "enjoyable" game play?

    Imo, most everyone here, including you, has been somewhat right. However, many refuse to accept their value finding profile as their own and would rather blame the game or analytics for showing that they are compelled by or prioritize rewards. A company that sells into our reptile brain deserves to be put under a microscope (imo, Arenanet agressivelly sells into our reptile brains) but we also need to be willing to inspect and take responsibility for our own reptile brain. Please forgive me if this lands as criticism, I do not intend it as criticism but as a wake up call, but anyone claiming that they need to do something they don't enjoy in this game has given control to their reptile brains. The reptile brain loves rewards and is designed to pump happy chemicals when we get them.

    This thread started with someone mad at analytics for showing the studio people other than them and has been filled with people mad at analytics for showing the studio themselves.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    If someone is doing something that is completely optional, why wouldn't we assume that they are experiencing some level of "enjoyment".

    Because enjoyment tied to the content is not the only reason someone might be doing the content. They might dislike the content but be there for the rewards. They might not care about the content, but be there because people they play with are doing that. They might be doing some achievements. The reasons are not limited to one. It's not always so easy to see why content is popular.
    For example, Tarir, while relatively popular, has nowhere close to the popularity of the old Multiloot. In this specific case, we can compare those two examples and can realize easily why one was more popular than the other - it was all about the one thing that was different (no, not enjoyment - rewards). Unfortunately, such comparisons can be hard to come by when all we can compare something with is some different content. There are way too many factors that differ between such cases, so it's usually not so easy to pinpoint the reason (or, the combination of reasons) why one case is popular and other isn't.

    The alternative, that they are experiencing no enjoyment, demands we consider whether they are masochistic, addicted or in some way experiencing a compromised ability to consent or calculate self interest. In the context of gaming, we have to face that possibly.

    Self interest other than enjoyment is very often the case, though. So, how exactly can you tell the difference?

    I understand what you are saying but reject the distinction you seem to be making between self interest and enjoyment and rewards and enjoyment. Again, why wouldn't someone spending time in a zone they don't "enjoy" (this term is being used by many because it is vague and resists an objective and global description) be taken to mean that they "enjoy" rewards more than "enjoyable" game play?

    You again missed the point. Yes, if we know that someone does not enjoy the zone/instance/content, and yet spends time there, we can reason out that in that specific case their desire for the rewards coming from that content is greater than their dislike of said content. We would not necessarily know how that person would have reacted in another zone with another set of rewards though.
    Which is beside the point, by the way. Point being that the "analytics data" tells us that the person is visiting the zone, but it's not necessarily telling us why. And here the distinction becomes very important. The knowledge about why players frequent a certain content is important to developers, because it tells them how to design future stuff. If they make light of that distinction you think is unimportant, it is very likely they might next time concentrate on exactly the wrong parts, delivering the things that were disliked and cutting back on those that were liked. And yes, analytics might give them the data on what went wrong eventually, after they'd have time to compare notes on a lot of zones/instances, but by that time they might have ended up with a lot of failures.

    Notice also, that if someone is interested in the rewards, but not the zone/instance, then while you might say they are experiencing some level of "enjoyment", that enjoyment is not tied to the zone/instance at all. Move the rewards somewhere else, and that person will move as well.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 28, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    If someone is doing something that is completely optional, why wouldn't we assume that they are experiencing some level of "enjoyment".

    Because enjoyment tied to the content is not the only reason someone might be doing the content. They might dislike the content but be there for the rewards. They might not care about the content, but be there because people they play with are doing that. They might be doing some achievements. The reasons are not limited to one. It's not always so easy to see why content is popular.
    For example, Tarir, while relatively popular, has nowhere close to the popularity of the old Multiloot. In this specific case, we can compare those two examples and can realize easily why one was more popular than the other - it was all about the one thing that was different (no, not enjoyment - rewards). Unfortunately, such comparisons can be hard to come by when all we can compare something with is some different content. There are way too many factors that differ between such cases, so it's usually not so easy to pinpoint the reason (or, the combination of reasons) why one case is popular and other isn't.

    The alternative, that they are experiencing no enjoyment, demands we consider whether they are masochistic, addicted or in some way experiencing a compromised ability to consent or calculate self interest. In the context of gaming, we have to face that possibly.

    Self interest other than enjoyment is very often the case, though. So, how exactly can you tell the difference?

    I understand what you are saying but reject the distinction you seem to be making between self interest and enjoyment and rewards and enjoyment. Again, why wouldn't someone spending time in a zone they don't "enjoy" (this term is being used by many because it is vague and resists an objective and global description) be taken to mean that they "enjoy" rewards more than "enjoyable" game play?

    You again missed the point. Yes, if we know that someone does not enjoy the zone/instance/content, and yet spends time there, we can reason out that in that specific case their desire for the rewards coming from that content is greater than their dislike of said content. We would not necessarily know how that person would have reacted in another zone with another set of rewards though.
    Which is beside the point, by the way. Point being that the "analytics data" tells us that the person is visiting the zone, but it's not necessarily telling us why. And here the distinction becomes very important. The knowledge about why players frequent a certain content is important to developers, because it tells them how to design future stuff. If they make light of that distinction you think is unimportant, it is very likely they might next time concentrate on exactly the wrong parts, delivering the things that were disliked and cutting back on those that were liked. And yes, analytics might give them the data on what went wrong eventually, after they'd have time to compare notes on a lot of zones/instances, but by that time they might have ended up with a lot of failures.

    Notice also, that if someone is interested in the rewards, but not the zone/instance, then while you might say they are experiencing some level of "enjoyment", that enjoyment is not tied to the zone/instance at all. Move the rewards somewhere else, and that person will move as well.

    An astute deduction!

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    If someone is doing something that is completely optional, why wouldn't we assume that they are experiencing some level of "enjoyment".

    Because enjoyment tied to the content is not the only reason someone might be doing the content. They might dislike the content but be there for the rewards. They might not care about the content, but be there because people they play with are doing that. They might be doing some achievements. The reasons are not limited to one. It's not always so easy to see why content is popular.
    For example, Tarir, while relatively popular, has nowhere close to the popularity of the old Multiloot. In this specific case, we can compare those two examples and can realize easily why one was more popular than the other - it was all about the one thing that was different (no, not enjoyment - rewards). Unfortunately, such comparisons can be hard to come by when all we can compare something with is some different content. There are way too many factors that differ between such cases, so it's usually not so easy to pinpoint the reason (or, the combination of reasons) why one case is popular and other isn't.

    The alternative, that they are experiencing no enjoyment, demands we consider whether they are masochistic, addicted or in some way experiencing a compromised ability to consent or calculate self interest. In the context of gaming, we have to face that possibly.

    Self interest other than enjoyment is very often the case, though. So, how exactly can you tell the difference?

    I understand what you are saying but reject the distinction you seem to be making between self interest and enjoyment and rewards and enjoyment. Again, why wouldn't someone spending time in a zone they don't "enjoy" (this term is being used by many because it is vague and resists an objective and global description) be taken to mean that they "enjoy" rewards more than "enjoyable" game play?

    Imo, most everyone here, including you, has been somewhat right. However, many refuse to accept their value finding profile as their own and would rather blame the game or analytics for showing that they are compelled by or prioritize rewards. A company that sells into our reptile brain deserves to be put under a microscope (imo, Arenanet agressivelly sells into our reptile brains) but we also need to be willing to inspect and take responsibility for our own reptile brain. Please forgive me if this lands as criticism, I do not intend it as criticism but as a wake up call, but anyone claiming that they need to do something they don't enjoy in this game has given control to their reptile brains. The reptile brain loves rewards and is designed to pump happy chemicals when we get them.

    This thread started with someone mad at analytics for showing the studio people other than them and has been filled with people mad at analytics for showing the studio themselves.

    I am not really mad at analytics all I said is that it shouldn't drive the direction of the game. But I agree wholeheartedly with your inference on the "reptilian" brain of doing things you don't enjoy for rewards instead of fun. It's my primary reason for making this post. Its also why I never have and never will repeat farm Bjora Meta or Domain of Istan. I prefer getting gold the harder way, the fun way, the one that has more action than clicking stuff on the mystic forge or mindlessly pressing 1 on a meta event.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    On a more serious tone. Since you use analytics, care to answer the question asked in the previous page, which exactly type of analytics/data can be used to tell if one piece of content is more enjoyable than another. I never got an answer to that but since you know about them you might have an answer. All I got was "quick achievement completion"

    Tbh the only way i could see that kind of data being gathered is through surveys(which they do send out sometimes.)

    Me having(for example) a few PVP and Raid achievements doesnt mean i enjoy those modes. Me having almost all the achievements in the story doesnt mean anything either. So if they are just using that data....oof...but i doubt thats all they use.

    I know, and I said so multiple times already. But there are so many gurus on these forums that claim to know so much about analytics that disagree with that. And when asked to provide which type of data can do the same job as a survey/poll or reading social media/forums, they simply vanish.

    I think what is happening here, is mostly miscommunication, rather than disagreement. If you're reading carefully enough, no one is actually saying enjoyment is measured by analytical data, rather that analytical data backs up whether people are enjoying themselves, or hint at enjoyment. (Edit: Although reading back, I did phrase it terribly at one point, saying analytical data does show enjoyment but not 100%, by which I didn't mean show as in prove , but more show as in hint at or shine a light on.)

    I wouldnt be surprised if they can track which maps have the most players, what maps are played the most, what activities get done on those maps the most etc.

    Of course they do, back in the beta weekend event they posted "Heat maps" that showed where most players were during the beta. Bright colors meant lots of players were at one place, no colors at all meant there were no players in that area. Popularity is very easy to track with proper data, and they do have that kind of data and have shown that they do. It's when it comes to enjoyment and quality that no such data can measure it properly, other than actual community interaction.

    In fact, enjoyment isn't perfectly measured by social media surveys and the like either. People are incredibly biased and easily influenced. One time they have one favourite, and the other time another. Often enough the newest thing (or one of those newer things). And getting behind the meaning and reading what the community is really saying is a whole job in and of itself. The same way quality and enjoyment also don't always go hand in hand either. A game can be of the highest quality but simply not be enjoying to a person at all.

    (to talk a bit about WoW, maybe WoW was never that good to begin with, and game metrics have little to do with it. :p)

    Personally I think the miscommunication has more to do with people interpreting disagreement with someone as a war with them. It's quite easily noticable in most of the raid post for example where a vocal minority polarize the topic.

    Their also a topic recently about someone getting banned for two weeks and when other people didn't like their idea of being able to pay of the ban he cursed then to hell in some hindu variant

    The topic has violently shifted to raids, which is not at all what I wanted to get at; in terms of the war about raiding, the hostility here is coming to people claiming things are too hard when they've never even seen them. In terms of the analytics, you have the die hard robot humanoids attacking the flesh and boned about what's actually fun and what isn't.

    The question that keeps coming up is "Does analytics actually show what's fun or what isn't or is it simply showing something else?" And my answer is that it's showing something else.

    My whole post went from something I intended for GD but turned to raids.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    If someone is doing something that is completely optional, why wouldn't we assume that they are experiencing some level of "enjoyment". The alternative, that they are experiencing no enjoyment, demands we consider whether they are masochistic, addicted or in some way experiencing a compromised ability to consent or calculate self interest. In the context of gaming, we have to face that possibly.

    I hate pvp/wvw but do it for the AP. I dont enjoy my time there at all. Saddly, i need that 4k+ AP thats locked behind competitive modes.

    I had a similar mindset in terms of WvW. I never cared at all about winning the tower-defense thing. All I wanted was to go to big brawls against other masses of players. I hated having nights without seeing enemies which is the main reason I don't WvW anymore.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2020

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    maybe this helps

    https://www.datanami.com/2019/08/29/data-analytics-streamlines-gaming-industry-heres-how/

    "Enhancing Game Design
    Data analytics also helps gaming companies boost game design. Building interactive and complex scenarios for games requires a large stock of creativity, but it also needs a proper understanding of what works well for the audience. Here’s where data analytics can lend a helping hand.

    For instance, analytics helps companies detect problematic gameplay moments for users. Indeed, data can show that some levels might be too dull, some might be too challenging, and some might simply contain bugs that don’t let users move forward.

    By the way, this is what happened to King Digital Entertainment. This famous game developer once bumped into an unforeseen problem with its most popular game, Candy Crush Saga. Users were massively abandoning level 65, reasons unknown. With 725 levels in total, for Candy Crush Saga such a tendency was quite a trouble. King turned to data analysts to reveal that most people were abandoning because of a particular gaming element that didn’t let users make it past level 65. After certain magic in the development department, the element was deleted, and user retention got moving again."

    not only is analytics necessary, it can be critical to long term success. Guess that answers OP. /thread.

    That's Candy Crush, a mobile game in which you swipe on your phone screen with one thumb. We're playing a game with much much more complexity in mechanics, scenery, and overall design than some mobile board game on a timer.

    Also the approach taken by Candy Crush does not answer raiding in gw2 because people who are arguing that raiding is too hard have never actually tried raiding. Whereas in candy crush people actually did encounter level 65. Hence why they nerfed level 65 in candy crush but they haven't nerfed raids in gw2.

    This is what it means to think like a game designer. It's a very in-depth mentality as to why you want to take an approach. I am into game dev so I know what I am talking about. ;)

    If we're strictly speaking about analytics here, the statistics have to answer "has said player done raids, if never, why?" An experienced producer has to answer questions like these. And that's where the strikes popped up from.

    From a standpoint here strictly speaking out of experience, the level designers of raids have taken a very careful approach to not make them difficult. In fact I can 100% guarantee that if we're taking an experienced player that can dodge roll out of orange circles and can learn how to do the mechanics; with the right amount of healing and group composition raids are on the medium scale. If anything, t3 Fractals are actually a lot harder than raids as a whole, as hard as it is to believe, I actually have a lot more trouble doing fractals than I do raiding.

    While you assume I'm seeking some sort of answer, I'm not, and neither are the people who have actually raided, because as raiders who actually have experienced the raids and beaten them we don't even have questions to begin with. I'm just enjoying the fruits of critical thinking and analysis. I'm actually not here to get scolded for my point of view either, so I retaliate when an attack feels insidiously motivated.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The fact is there are tons of people probably more than you think who can, and probably have tried raids but found they were not something they enjoyed. I am one such player who did the first wing and found it to be a hallow experience of what raiding elsewhere was and is. I also found that I didn't like the environment and to be honest I doubt they could entice me enough to really be gung-hoe about it.

    I play every mode outside of raids, and nothing will probably alter that path as it stands now (It looks like raids are going the way of dungeons, and that strikes/visions will be their fractal like replacement.) Now to put into perspective when dungeons were canned I was PISSED I was so mad, and I hated fractals for taking away the experience that I liked within dungeons. Over time I've let it go and honestly fractals are a good substitute and are much like Mythic + in a lot of ways if we compare to WoW. So they have done this once before and as they have yet to confirm whether or not they will survive, but have confirmed fractals will I will say that its telling. Silence can be way more deafening than words and their lack of word on what their plans with raids are much like how dungeons went until fractals took off.

    Strikes are being done by lots of people it looks like, same with visions. From what I've "Heard" from my raider pals of whom I am happy to talk to about their woes but have little in common with most of the time it seems like its just the same ol'crowd. So this tells me strikes are not doing what they were initially intended to do, and they and visions are succesful on some margine. So I think that its a reasonable guess to aim to that they will do what fractals do; Offer that kind of gameplay for people with a different way of getting there. I honestly believe that it is the future and I empathize having been there once, and I Feel terrible it very well may be happening again but it seems to be the least played mode. Thats how it "seems" and I mean it might be that most groups just run silently into the night, and are not being used applicably because we don't know but I mean it just feels like its a small amount of the overall playerbase.

    TL;DR: If raiding is all you're here for, then you might wana move on as it very well could be going the way of dungeons. Many of my friends left and even I myself left for a long time after dungeons got axed. Maybe an extended break might get you out there and help you stretch your legs so to speak, and get the itch scratched. This game will never be built or focused going forward on raiding, its just not how this works. So I empathize but QQing into the sunset about it won't solve anything, the numbers likely will out-weigh anyones personal opinion. IF ITS LUCRATIVE and seems to preform well it will continue on, if It doesn't then it will be replaced with something that can carry on. The raids we have will be there, so at least there is that~

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    The fact is there are tons of people probably more than you think who can, and probably have tried raids but found they were not something they enjoyed. I am one such player who did the first wing and found it to be a hallow experience of what raiding elsewhere was and is. I also found that I didn't like the environment and to be honest I doubt they could entice me enough to really be gung-hoe about it.

    I play every mode outside of raids, and nothing will probably alter that path as it stands now (It looks like raids are going the way of dungeons, and that strikes/visions will be their fractal like replacement.) Now to put into perspective when dungeons were canned I was PISSED I was so mad, and I hated fractals for taking away the experience that I liked within dungeons. Over time I've let it go and honestly fractals are a good substitute and are much like Mythic + in a lot of ways if we compare to WoW. So they have done this once before and as they have yet to confirm whether or not they will survive, but have confirmed fractals will I will say that its telling. Silence can be way more deafening than words and their lack of word on what their plans with raids are much like how dungeons went until fractals took off.

    Strikes are being done by lots of people it looks like, same with visions. From what I've "Heard" from my raider pals of whom I am happy to talk to about their woes but have little in common with most of the time it seems like its just the same ol'crowd. So this tells me strikes are not doing what they were initially intended to do, and they and visions are succesful on some margine. So I think that its a reasonable guess to aim to that they will do what fractals do; Offer that kind of gameplay for people with a different way of getting there. I honestly believe that it is the future and I empathize having been there once, and I Feel terrible it very well may be happening again but it seems to be the least played mode. Thats how it "seems" and I mean it might be that most groups just run silently into the night, and are not being used applicably because we don't know but I mean it just feels like its a small amount of the overall playerbase.

    TL;DR: If raiding is all you're here for, then you might wana move on as it very well could be going the way of dungeons. Many of my friends left and even I myself left for a long time after dungeons got axed. Maybe an extended break might get you out there and help you stretch your legs so to speak, and get the itch scratched. This game will never be built or focused going forward on raiding, its just not how this works. So I empathize but QQing into the sunset about it won't solve anything, the numbers likely will out-weigh anyones personal opinion. IF ITS LUCRATIVE and seems to preform well it will continue on, if It doesn't then it will be replaced with something that can carry on. The raids we have will be there, so at least there is that~

    I agree, and that's why I'm playing Skyrim on expert mode. I never even touched it prior to making this post and I have been playing it for hours now. I love this game! My original post as a whole wasn't about raiding either way.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2020

    @TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

    @Seera.5916 said:

    An MMO aimed for the lower skilled players does not mean that the MMO is bad quality. It's just not designed for players looking for a challenge.

    >

    Except, that is never how GW2 was marketed in the first place. Yes, it was marketed to people who game more casually than others, but it was never marketed only to them. From the start they've told us that the game would have both easy and challenging content. In fact, at the start of the game dungeons were that challenging content, because they were a lot harder than they are now. Fractals of the Mists, back when it only went so far as level 50, was a lot harder than Fractals are now. Level 50 then was harder than level 100 now. This is what people always seem to forget when they talk about the demographic the game is aiming for. GW2 has, and was always supposed to have, both easy and challenging content. I truly believe that people complaining content is too difficult (except for people with disabilities) are the kind of people who just flat out refuse to improve and want everything handed to them as easy to swallow bits. Either that, or they have the wrong expectations based on faulty data.

    Imagine playing chess, or bowling, or virtually any board game where you demand that the ability to lose be removed out of the game. I'm sincerely worried by the catering to the lowest common denominator because games at heart have always had an element of pushing you to improve.

    We don't need to go off the far end of competitive atmospheres, but designing a game where you don't demand much of your players is going to end up with a game with high turnover and terrible shelf life because skill progression and bashing your head against an encounter until you manage to beat it is what gives most PvE content its longevity since it will always lack the spontaneity of PvP.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Which is beside the point, by the way. Point being that the "analytics data" tells us that the person is visiting the zone, but it's not necessarily telling us why.

    According to those that claim an extensive knowledge of analytics it does tell us why. There were about 3 pages in this topic discussing it, but were deleted when the topic was moved to the Raid sub forum. For some reason discussing whether analytics can tell us "why" a player is visiting a zone and if they find it enjoyable there, was deemed off topic in a thread about analytics.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2020

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    If someone is doing something that is completely optional, why wouldn't we assume that they are experiencing some level of "enjoyment". The alternative, that they are experiencing no enjoyment, demands we consider whether they are masochistic, addicted or in some way experiencing a compromised ability to consent or calculate self interest. In the context of gaming, we have to face that possibly.

    Maddoctor, your black and white fallacies, strawmen and imprecise language don't answer this question. Indeed, you may purposely avoiding answering the question. Why shouldn't we expect the average cognitively healthy player to understand their own value system? Why wouldn't someone farming Silverwastes show that they value farming efficiently? Are we all wrong about what we want or too weak to resist? Why isn't the time we spend doing something a real display of what we value?

    I think you are making an argument adapted from the saying; "Do as I say, not as I do."

    "Pay attention to what I say, not what I do."

    The reason for the time you spend farming for something is what gives it its value. If you're simply farming to get a silly skin and all you've been doing in game is ez mode content to get it, you rob yourself of any excitement.

    It's like you're just robbing a bank and there's no security guard there, all you do is walk in press a button the money dispenses itself in amounts of 2 dollars at a time and walk out with the money in hand. Then because you do it everyone else does too.

    Ever heard of that video game called let's count sand? I got the 1,000,000,000th grain achievement in that game. Fishing in wow is more exciting than farming silverwastes. Fishing in real life is more exciting than farming silverwastes. Making a beat on a desk with my hands is more exciting than farming silverwastes. The graveyard, a steam game, is more exciting and filled with heart thumping action than silverwastes farming. Okay maybe not, but the train simulator is 10x more exciting than silverwastes farming.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2020

    we try compare wow raid with gw2 raids?
    there is one big difference.
    So this is point from me, and keep then I collect achievements, not as pro, but do.
    I complete all wow raid, to close all achievements in that.
    Do I complete all raid in gw2 ? no, I don't complete all raids, and playing per 6+ years still not see some boses at all. Better do some leg weapon, or complete other achievement . wvw, pvp, fractals... SAB :)) and etc So I can go raid only if sure what we will do it.

    And now main difference explain: all raid what I complete in wow I do it after next patch, where 5 roleplay players clean 25. And never go current raid.
    In guildwarsall raid is "current". So I can't take 10 roleplay ptv players from guild and complete it. It is ok ? may be, may be not. But this is absolutely different vision of content.

  • @Aridon.8362 said:
    Ever heard of that video game called let's count sand?

    Is it that new one that came bundled with Telling People They're Having Fun the Wrong Way is a Bad Look? I think it's by the Goat Simulator people.

    The Commander will end you.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    The topic has violently shifted to raids, which is not at all what I wanted to get at; in terms of the war about raiding, the hostility here is coming to people claiming things are too hard when they've never even seen them.

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    Also the approach taken by Candy Crush does not answer raiding in gw2 because people who are arguing that raiding is too hard have never actually tried raiding.

    That's a common misconception - in reality there's quite a number of people on that side of raids argument that have done raids (and by "done raids" i don't mean once or twice, but many, many times over).

    Yes, we kitten well know what we're talking about.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    If someone is doing something that is completely optional, why wouldn't we assume that they are experiencing some level of "enjoyment". The alternative, that they are experiencing no enjoyment, demands we consider whether they are masochistic, addicted or in some way experiencing a compromised ability to consent or calculate self interest. In the context of gaming, we have to face that possibly.

    Maddoctor, your black and white fallacies, strawmen and imprecise language don't answer this question. Indeed, you may purposely avoiding answering the question. Why shouldn't we expect the average cognitively healthy player to understand their own value system? Why wouldn't someone farming Silverwastes show that they value farming efficiently? Are we all wrong about what we want or too weak to resist? Why isn't the time we spend doing something a real display of what we value?

    I think you are making an argument adapted from the saying; "Do as I say, not as I do."

    "Pay attention to what I say, not what I do."

    The reason for the time you spend farming for something is what gives it its value. If you're simply farming to get a silly skin and all you've been doing in game is ez mode content to get it, you rob yourself of any excitement.

    It's like you're just robbing a bank and there's no security guard there, all you do is walk in press a button the money dispenses itself in amounts of 2 dollars at a time and walk out with the money in hand. Then because you do it everyone else does too.

    Ever heard of that video game called let's count sand? I got the 1,000,000,000th grain achievement in that game. Fishing in wow is more exciting than farming silverwastes. Fishing in real life is more exciting than farming silverwastes. Making a beat on a desk with my hands is more exciting than farming silverwastes. The graveyard, a steam game, is more exciting and filled with heart thumping action than silverwastes farming. Okay maybe not, but the train simulator is 10x more exciting than silverwastes farming.

    You can't really tell other how they should have fun

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    The topic has violently shifted to raids, which is not at all what I wanted to get at; in terms of the war about raiding, the hostility here is coming to people claiming things are too hard when they've never even seen them.


    @Aridon.8362 said:
    Also the approach taken by Candy Crush does not answer raiding in gw2 because people who are arguing that raiding is too hard have never actually tried raiding.

    That's a common misconception - in reality there's quite a number of people on that side of raids argument that have done raids (and by "done raids" i don't mean once or twice, but many, many times over).

    Yes, we kitten well know what we're talking about.

    While I agree that it's ridiculous to assume non have raided, their have been lots of people who have made suggestions or comments which show they don't really know how raiding works ingame.

    They either have preconceived notions from other games or the fora.

    So to say they know what their talking about is an giant overstatement.

    Now this is true for almost all sides of this debate but it still bears mentioning.

  • XenoSpyro.1780XenoSpyro.1780 Member ✭✭✭

    @kurfu.5623 said:
    Using Asmongold as a reference to back your arguments totally invalidates whatever point you were trying to make. That guy is an AH.

    The irony is, you didn't provide anything really insightful or useful to this thread. So I assume everyone else can just write you off as white-noise.

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    It's a business though ... no one should forget that.

    Everytime I see a variation of "it's a business" or "companies only care about profit", I'm remind of older games where that wasn't true. I specifically think back to Sierra telling Gaben (or Gaben telling his crew, whichever it was) "Don't worry about how long it takes or how much it will cost, just try to make the best game possible."

    It's almost like you can place quality above profit and still come out fine. This is a lost art.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2020

    @XenoSpyro.1780 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    It's a business though ... no one should forget that.

    Everytime I see a variation of "it's a business" or "companies only care about profit", I'm remind of older games where that wasn't true. I specifically think back to Sierra telling Gaben (or Gaben telling his crew, whichever it was) "Don't worry about how long it takes or how much it will cost, just try to make the best game possible."

    It's almost like you can place quality above profit and still come out fine. This is a lost art.

    Hold on ... no one is saying companies only care about profits ... The point is that people don't seem to realize that first and foremost, the reason all this exists is for some entity to make money .. .it's not a charitable organization meant to appease their every whim. That quote you provide simply indicates that it wasn't the staffs job to worry about things OTHER than making a good game. It doesn't say anything about how that company ranked profits/quality or whatever.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:
    While I agree that it's ridiculous to assume non have raided, their have been lots of people who have made suggestions or comments which show they don't really know how raiding works ingame.

    They either have preconceived notions from other games or the fora.

    So to say they know what their talking about is an giant overstatement.

    Well, you're right - not everyone (on both sides) knows what they're talking about. That's not the reason however to claim that "people who are arguing that raiding is too hard have never actually tried raiding", when in fact many did try it, and a significant number went way beyond "just trying".

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    While I agree that it's ridiculous to assume non have raided, their have been lots of people who have made suggestions or comments which show they don't really know how raiding works ingame.

    They either have preconceived notions from other games or the fora.

    So to say they know what their talking about is an giant overstatement.

    Well, you're right - not everyone (on both sides) knows what they're talking about. That's not the reason however to claim that "people who are arguing that raiding is too hard have never actually tried raiding", when in fact many did try it, and a significant number went way beyond "just trying".

    We'll I completely agree, I just thought that countering an exaggeration with another exaggeration "we kitten well know..." is a little silly. :p

  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    maybe this helps

    https://www.datanami.com/2019/08/29/data-analytics-streamlines-gaming-industry-heres-how/

    "Enhancing Game Design
    Data analytics also helps gaming companies boost game design. Building interactive and complex scenarios for games requires a large stock of creativity, but it also needs a proper understanding of what works well for the audience. Here’s where data analytics can lend a helping hand.

    For instance, analytics helps companies detect problematic gameplay moments for users. Indeed, data can show that some levels might be too dull, some might be too challenging, and some might simply contain bugs that don’t let users move forward.

    By the way, this is what happened to King Digital Entertainment. This famous game developer once bumped into an unforeseen problem with its most popular game, Candy Crush Saga. Users were massively abandoning level 65, reasons unknown. With 725 levels in total, for Candy Crush Saga such a tendency was quite a trouble. King turned to data analysts to reveal that most people were abandoning because of a particular gaming element that didn’t let users make it past level 65. After certain magic in the development department, the element was deleted, and user retention got moving again."

    not only is analytics necessary, it can be critical to long term success. Guess that answers OP. /thread.

    That's Candy Crush, a mobile game in which you swipe on your phone screen with one thumb. We're playing a game with much much more complexity in mechanics, scenery, and overall design than some mobile board game on a timer.

    Also the approach taken by Candy Crush does not answer raiding in gw2 because people who are arguing that raiding is too hard have never actually tried raiding. Whereas in candy crush people actually did encounter level 65. Hence why they nerfed level 65 in candy crush but they haven't nerfed raids in gw2.

    That Candy crush game metrics don't clarify GW2 problems should be pretty obvious. That doesn't mean that analytics aren't an important tool in game design.

    I doubt there's any MMO developers out there not using analytics to alter the direction of their games.

    And most of the analytics, we won't hear about, as these complex analytical models are usually company secrets.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    If that were the case then why are people in the Aerodome saying its too easy.

    Mad top percentage people exist in every game.

    If the majority of raiders were simply failing to kill bosses ANET would clearly nerf raids.

    Arenanet once has stated that they want raids only to be beaten by few top percentage players, so they likely won't nerf them for accessibility.

    But as it turns out the raiders sitting AFK on the Aerodome do get past this barrier you can't get past.

    Have you ever thought that the people afki'ng in the Aerodrome might not all be raiders?

    There being actual people waiting in the aerodome and a lot of people actually having legendary armor means your significant number that went beyond "just trying" is actually insignificant.

    I'm pretty certain the number of people in the Aerodrome (who, as mentioned above, might not all be raiders) and the ones wearing legendary raid armour is pretty insignificant in comparison to the total number of players.

    Right, because not all players want to raid to begin with, it's not for everyone. Also people in the Aerodome are raiders. You can ask them for yourself individually (I can tell you because that's something I did personally).

    You asked every person in a given aerodrome instance individually? wow that's some serious dedication!

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 30, 2020

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    If that were the case then why are people in the Aerodome saying its too easy.

    Mad top percentage people exist in every game.

    If the majority of raiders were simply failing to kill bosses ANET would clearly nerf raids.

    Arenanet once has stated that they want raids only to be beaten by few top percentage players, so they likely won't nerf them for accessibility.

    But as it turns out the raiders sitting AFK on the Aerodome do get past this barrier you can't get past.

    Have you ever thought that the people afki'ng in the Aerodrome might not all be raiders?

    There being actual people waiting in the aerodome and a lot of people actually having legendary armor means your significant number that went beyond "just trying" is actually insignificant.

    I'm pretty certain the number of people in the Aerodrome (who, as mentioned above, might not all be raiders) and the ones wearing legendary raid armour is pretty insignificant in comparison to the total number of players.

    Right, because not all players want to raid to begin with, it's not for everyone. Also people in the Aerodome are raiders. You can ask them for yourself individually (I can tell you because that's something I did personally).

    And I can tell you for certain that not everyone afk'ing in the Aerodrome is a raider.
    That's because I also afk'ed there and I definitely am not a raider.

    But it's very dedicated from you to ask every single player, who regularly is in the aerodrome.
    Players, who supposedly were afk, answering you is quite a surprise though.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Which is beside the point, by the way. Point being that the "analytics data" tells us that the person is visiting the zone, but it's not necessarily telling us why.

    According to those that claim an extensive knowledge of analytics it does tell us why. There were about 3 pages in this topic discussing it, but were deleted when the topic was moved to the Raid sub forum. For some reason discussing whether analytics can tell us "why" a player is visiting a zone and if they find it enjoyable there, was deemed off topic in a thread about analytics.

    as was linked earlier.

    https://www.datanami.com/2019/08/29/data-analytics-streamlines-gaming-industry-heres-how/

    "Enhancing Game Design
    Data analytics also helps gaming companies boost game design. Building interactive and complex scenarios for games requires a large stock of creativity, but it also needs a proper understanding of what works well for the audience. Here’s where data analytics can lend a helping hand.

    For instance, analytics helps companies detect problematic gameplay moments for users. Indeed, data can show that some levels might be too dull, some might be too challenging, and some might simply contain bugs that don’t let users move forward.
    ...

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Which is beside the point, by the way. Point being that the "analytics data" tells us that the person is visiting the zone, but it's not necessarily telling us why.

    According to those that claim an extensive knowledge of analytics it does tell us why. There were about 3 pages in this topic discussing it, but were deleted when the topic was moved to the Raid sub forum. For some reason discussing whether analytics can tell us "why" a player is visiting a zone and if they find it enjoyable there, was deemed off topic in a thread about analytics.

    as was linked earlier.

    https://www.datanami.com/2019/08/29/data-analytics-streamlines-gaming-industry-heres-how/

    "Enhancing Game Design
    Data analytics also helps gaming companies boost game design. Building interactive and complex scenarios for games requires a large stock of creativity, but it also needs a proper understanding of what works well for the audience. Here’s where data analytics can lend a helping hand.

    For instance, analytics helps companies detect problematic gameplay moments for users. Indeed, data can show that some levels might be too dull, some might be too challenging, and some might simply contain bugs that don’t let users move forward.
    ...

    There is nothing there on subject of enjoyment in content but it's a good try :)