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Mystic Coin Scarcity Problem - [Merged]

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  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cleopatra.4068 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    The implication there is a 'shortage' of MC's is rather nonsensical. There CAN'T be a shortage of items you get for FREE over time. Maybe you don't get as many as you want when you want them ... but that certainly is not honest to say that's a 'shortage'.

    When the demand exceeds the supply, that is a shortage. Not getting as many as you want when you want them is literally the definition of a shortage.

    If you look at GW2BLTC, the auction-house "demand" (buy orders) exceeds the "supply" (standing sell orders) on nearly any item that's not priced into the gutter. The reason for that is really simple: you actually have to have the item in hand to sell it, whereas a buy order is just a speculative position.

    Based on the trading post data as best as I can read it, Mystic Coins don't seem to be bottlenecking the overall crafting rate of Legendaries, so there's no shortage of the commodity itself.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    I'm surprised people still use the Recipe to get their clovers I have at least two full stacks just from doing PvP and WvW dailies and reward tracks.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I'm surprised people still use the Recipe to get their clovers I have at least two full stacks just from doing PvP and WvW dailies and reward tracks.

    I do that and get it from the login but it depends. I still use the recipe especially for the last few clovers just because I feel like finishing it faster. Sometimes it is because I started making some other compoents and I wanted to finish the whole thing during that session.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yes, it seems that availability of Oranges was indeed severely limited at some point.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Maikimaik.1974Maikimaik.1974 Member ✭✭✭

    @Joote.4081 said:
    Never mind mystic coins, where are the oranges? I have scoured the map for those juicy treats for months and never found one. Have they removed oranges as they did with snowflakes?

    The wiki is a great place to start looking for a specific item.
    Oranges aren't harvestable and only drop from specific bags, Snowflakes are only available during Wintersday.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:
    It's not "scarcity" if thousands of the things are available for just a few coppers above the sell-it-now price.

    If you're wealthy enough, few things are truly scarce. This has nothing to do with overall scarcity of said resource.

    Something given to every account for logging in may not qualify as scarce.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashen.2907 said:
    Something given to every account for logging in may not qualify as scarce.

    Or it may, depending on the rate.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:
    Something given to every account for logging in may not qualify as scarce.

    Or it may, depending on the rate.

    Ok. Say you need about 250 Mystic Coins for a gen 1 legendary (77 clovers, and you're making them the hard way), 500 for a gen 2 (250 coins + 77 clovers).

    You get 20 Mystic Coins a month without doing anything. Plus another 1-3 a month for just doing the Mystic Forger daily when it comes up (takes ten seconds, you can just shovel any ol' trash into the Forge to get the free coin).

    That's around 250 coins a year for daily logins, no farming.

    Selecting Mystic Clovers from the Day 28 Chest will also give you about 77 Clovers after a year, just daily logins, no farming. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chest_of_Loyalty

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @ASP.8093 said:
    Ok. Say you need about 250 Mystic Coins for a gen 1 legendary (77 clovers, and you're making them the hard way), 500 for a gen 2 (250 coins + 77 clovers).

    You get 20 Mystic Coins a month without doing anything. Plus another 1-3 a month for just doing the Mystic Forger daily when it comes up (takes ten seconds, you can just shovel any ol' trash into the Forge to get the free coin).

    That's around 250 coins a year for daily logins, no farming.

    Selecting Mystic Clovers from the Day 28 Chest will also give you about 77 Clovers after a year, just daily logins, no farming. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chest_of_Loyalty

    And for some people that do less than one legendary a year it may be enough. For those that work a little bit faster than that however...
    (hint: if the rate at which we're obtaining MCs was sufficient for those people that have an use for them, MCs would not be increasing in price).

    Also, one thing you missed is that not everyone logs in every day. And those that do, are more likely to work on legendaries faster.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    If what is 'scarce' depends on the individual's rate of consumption, that's not a problem Anet needs to solve to begin with. No argument based on the point of 'subjective scarcity' will be a compelling reason to make certain materials more widely available. If you can't get enough MC's in the timeframe you want them with the methods available, that's not a game problem.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    If what is 'scarce' depends on the individual's rate of consumption, that's not a problem Anet needs to solve to begin with. No argument based on the point of 'subjective scarcity' will be a compelling reason to make certain materials more widely available. If you can't get enough MC's in the timeframe you want them with the methods available, that's not a game problem.

    You are the one trying to base the scarcity around individual availability, and not a general one. One person being able to buy enough MCs for their need is (unlike what you claimed earlier) not a sign that there's no scarcity. Scarcity is when the overall demand is greater than supply (and when an increase in demand cannot be met with increase in supply, because there's some sort of limit on that) - and that's what is happening with MCs. The price keeps going up, because for years the supply cannot catch up with demand.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    If what is 'scarce' depends on the individual's rate of consumption, that's not a problem Anet needs to solve to begin with. No argument based on the point of 'subjective scarcity' will be a compelling reason to make certain materials more widely available. If you can't get enough MC's in the timeframe you want them with the methods available, that's not a game problem.

    You are the one trying to base the scarcity around individual availability, and not a general one.

    No, that's not true because I'm not making ANY point based on scarcity either way so ...

    One person being able to buy enough MCs for their need is (unlike what you claimed earlier) not a sign that there's no scarcity. Scarcity is when the overall demand is greater than supply (and when an increase in demand cannot be met with increase in supply, because there's some sort of limit on that) - and that's what is happening with MCs. The price keeps going up, because for years the supply cannot catch up with demand.

    OK ... it doesn't matter what your definition of scarcity is because something being scarce that we have multiple ways to obtain means scarcity isn't a problem.

    I get it ... try to show MC's are "scarce", and hope Anet jumps in with a 'Doric Lake' solution to MC's .. RIGHT? Unfortunately, that approach doesn't make sense because I'm pretty sure Anet didn't forget they literally give MC's away for free to everyone. Put it this way, the solution to your 'scarce' MC's already exists ... doing the things you need to do to get them.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cleopatra.4068 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    The implication there is a 'shortage' of MC's is rather nonsensical. There CAN'T be a shortage of items you get for FREE over time. Maybe you don't get as many as you want when you want them ... but that certainly is not honest to say that's a 'shortage'.

    When the demand exceeds the supply, that is a shortage. Not getting as many as you want when you want them is literally the definition of a shortage.

    So you can't get as many as you want off the TP?

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    And for some people that do less than one legendary a year it may be enough. For those that work a little bit faster than that however...
    (hint: if the rate at which we're obtaining MCs was sufficient for those people that have an use for them, MCs would not be increasing in price).

    Also, one thing you missed is that not everyone logs in every day. And those that do, are more likely to work on legendaries faster.

    Well, the people who want to make five legendaries a year can go play the game for more than five minutes a day, then. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Mystic Coins are the only part of legendary crafting that hasn't fallen in value over the years. The overall price of legendaries on the TP, or even other Mystic-Coin-guzzlers like Infinite Light, emphatically hasn't skyrocketed, even as the average player's income seems to have increased quite a bit.

    The way that MC acquisition is front-loaded makes this arrangement good for casual players who want a bit of gold to play with, the free sources of MCs and Clovers are sufficient for someone who wants to make a Legendary as a long-term goal to get those components without having to care about TP prices, and if the people who want to be swimming in bling end up subsidizing the first group a bit by buying MCs at 2g10s instead of 1g20s, I am 100% fine with that, it's fine, I absolutely do not care.

  • Doggie.3184Doggie.3184 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    I farmed in-game for all the Thief-useable Legendaries I like, but if people rather farm RL for shiny weapons then go for it... I used to hold onto my coins in case they gave Thief a new one I'd want like Frostfang but I keep getting so many clovers from random things over time like tracks that it seemed pointless and sold'em all.
    Besides, I think gem2gold converters make my gold2gem prices cheaper? So wew if so.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @WindBlade.8749 said:
    Yea and now legendary are worthless

    If they were indeed worthless, people would not be pursuing them as much as they do. So, perhaps you are mistaken. Or you misunderstand where their worth lies.

    If they were worthless they'd end up like all those items that are somehow placed on TP for less than vendor cost causing you to be unable to sell them. :<

  • Cleopatra.4068Cleopatra.4068 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cleopatra.4068 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    The implication there is a 'shortage' of MC's is rather nonsensical. There CAN'T be a shortage of items you get for FREE over time. Maybe you don't get as many as you want when you want them ... but that certainly is not honest to say that's a 'shortage'.

    When the demand exceeds the supply, that is a shortage.

    Not getting as many as you want when you want them is literally the definition of a shortage.

    Neither of these things are the definition of shortage. MC are available, on the TP at market prices OR over time, for FREE if you need them. Even if those options don't fulfill your own self-defined criteria for reasonable access to MC's, that's certainly no reason to claim we have a shortage to justify the idea Anet needs to appease people with more access to MC's.

    No 're-defining' of established language can hid the fact that every one of these MC threads is simply a complaint about the price of MC's in a fair market by people who aren't patient enough to collect them via login rewards or content that gives them as rewards.

    Shortage: noun, a situation in which there is less of something than people want or need

    Literally the definition. In the dictionary. I’m redefining nothing.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Cleopatra.4068 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cleopatra.4068 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    The implication there is a 'shortage' of MC's is rather nonsensical. There CAN'T be a shortage of items you get for FREE over time. Maybe you don't get as many as you want when you want them ... but that certainly is not honest to say that's a 'shortage'.

    When the demand exceeds the supply, that is a shortage.

    Not getting as many as you want when you want them is literally the definition of a shortage.

    Neither of these things are the definition of shortage. MC are available, on the TP at market prices OR over time, for FREE if you need them. Even if those options don't fulfill your own self-defined criteria for reasonable access to MC's, that's certainly no reason to claim we have a shortage to justify the idea Anet needs to appease people with more access to MC's.

    No 're-defining' of established language can hid the fact that every one of these MC threads is simply a complaint about the price of MC's in a fair market by people who aren't patient enough to collect them via login rewards or content that gives them as rewards.

    Shortage: noun, a situation in which there is less of something than people want or need

    Literally the definition. In the dictionary. I’m redefining nothing.

    OK ... and there isn't less MC's that people want or need .. you just have to get them by doing the things that already exist to obtain them. There literally CAN'T be a shortage of something that is readily available for anyone to purchase from a market at market value.

    I mean, what even makes you think the situation with MC's it's not intentional or favourable to how the game works in the first place? Do you believe that pulling a definition of shortage from a dictionary is a compelling argument for changing the game? I don't think it is. I think what IS compelling is the fact that the things that need to be in the game so people can get MC's ARE ALREADY in the game.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • The "grey market" is chalk full of posts where people are trying to buy as many stacks of MC as they can. I can only assume this is fueling any "shortage" people are talking about and it's hard to give a good guess as to why this is happening.

    My best guess is that people could be stocking up on coins for the release of the next expansion, either for use or to put back onto the market at a higher price (surely there will be increased demand once EoD drops). This is purely speculation though so take it with a grain of salt.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Cleopatra.4068 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cleopatra.4068 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    The implication there is a 'shortage' of MC's is rather nonsensical. There CAN'T be a shortage of items you get for FREE over time. Maybe you don't get as many as you want when you want them ... but that certainly is not honest to say that's a 'shortage'.

    When the demand exceeds the supply, that is a shortage.

    Not getting as many as you want when you want them is literally the definition of a shortage.

    Neither of these things are the definition of shortage. MC are available, on the TP at market prices OR over time, for FREE if you need them. Even if those options don't fulfill your own self-defined criteria for reasonable access to MC's, that's certainly no reason to claim we have a shortage to justify the idea Anet needs to appease people with more access to MC's.

    No 're-defining' of established language can hid the fact that every one of these MC threads is simply a complaint about the price of MC's in a fair market by people who aren't patient enough to collect them via login rewards or content that gives them as rewards.

    Shortage: noun, a situation in which there is less of something than people want or need

    Literally the definition. In the dictionary. I’m redefining nothing.

    And yet the TP isn't running out of mystic coins...

    The issue isn't the definition but your incorrect usage of the term.

    https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/146202/economics/shortages/

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    MC part of legendary is 600g~700g of the total cost of 2500g~3000g... if u farmed 2000g why is more 600g so a big problem?

    -- Atlantean Sword --
    The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts..." [Points to sword] "This you can trust."

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    If what is 'scarce' depends on the individual's rate of consumption, that's not a problem Anet needs to solve to begin with. No argument based on the point of 'subjective scarcity' will be a compelling reason to make certain materials more widely available. If you can't get enough MC's in the timeframe you want them with the methods available, that's not a game problem.

    You are the one trying to base the scarcity around individual availability, and not a general one.

    No, that's not true because I'm not making ANY point based on scarcity either way so ...

    Fair enough, i misread. It wasn't you, it was someone else.

    One person being able to buy enough MCs for their need is (unlike what you claimed earlier) not a sign that there's no scarcity. Scarcity is when the overall demand is greater than supply (and when an increase in demand cannot be met with increase in supply, because there's some sort of limit on that) - and that's what is happening with MCs. The price keeps going up, because for years the supply cannot catch up with demand.

    OK ... it doesn't matter what your definition of scarcity is because something being scarce that we have multiple ways to obtain means scarcity isn't a problem.

    Sure, scarcity may not be a problem to some people, but it doesn't make it disappear. Like we already agreed upon, "subjective scarcity" arguments are worthless - and if they are worthless, they are so in both directions.

    I get it ... try to show MC's are "scarce", and hope Anet jumps in with a 'Doric Lake' solution to MC's .. RIGHT? Unfortunately, that approach doesn't make sense because I'm pretty sure Anet didn't forget they literally give MC's away for free to everyone.

    Well, them giving away MCs "for free" to everyone did not prevent them from introducing quite a number of other sources for them during the years. So, obviously, they already felt there was some problem with supply when they were doing that. And yet, even after that, the price keeps going up. Which means supply still didn't catch up with demand.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Doggie.3184 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @WindBlade.8749 said:
    Yea and now legendary are worthless

    If they were indeed worthless, people would not be pursuing them as much as they do. So, perhaps you are mistaken. Or you misunderstand where their worth lies.

    If they were worthless they'd end up like all those items that are somehow placed on TP for less than vendor cost causing you to be unable to sell them. :<

    Indeed. But apparently something worth over 1000g is still considered worthless by some people.

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    MC part of legendary is 600g~700g of the total cost of 2500g~3000g... if u farmed 2000g why is more 600g so a big problem?

    I remember the time when people complained that making legendaries straight out buyable (or even buyable to the large degree) makes them less legendary. Now, apparently, it's the very price tag that makes them worth that name. How the times have changed.

    Also, if i think that MC price is a problem, why should i think about aggravating that problem even more by feeding the sellers?

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Pacificterror.7805 said:
    The "grey market" is chalk full of posts where people are trying to buy as many stacks of MC as they can. I can only assume this is fueling any "shortage" people are talking about and it's hard to give a good guess as to why this is happening.

    Yes, i believe that at this moment a large part of demand for MCs that is fueling the increase of its price has nothing to do with legendary crafting at all, but a lot to do with it being a de facto second currency. This can be seen by the fact that introducing a lot of sources of clovers did not impact prices of MCs in the slightest.

    My best guess is that people could be stocking up on coins for the release of the next expansion, either for use or to put back onto the market at a higher price (surely there will be increased demand once EoD drops). This is purely speculation though so take it with a grain of salt.

    It's not as much about speculation as it is about longterm investment in stable commodity, and using MCs to circumvent gold cap on mailing for players that deal with off-TP trading.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    (split the post into 3 parts, as each addresses a separate argument)

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    The implication there is a 'shortage' of MC's is rather nonsensical. There CAN'T be a shortage of items you get for FREE over time.

    People that are suffering in a hospital near me due to shortage of oxygen would probably disagree with you.

    Notice: i'm not comparing their problem with problem of people having issues with lack of MCs, obviously. I'm just bringing it up to show that your argument is false.

    In short: there can be a shortage of something even if some people are still able to buy as much as they want of it. And there can be a shortage of something even if you receive some amount of it for free over time.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @LuRkEr.9462 said:
    Yea, buying Mystic clovers with fractal currency will save you a ton of coins... but really only applicable if you don't need fractal currency anymore.

    But to buy clovers with fractal corrency you spend coins too

  • @Cuks.8241 said:
    You're assuming mystic coins are the only source of clovers. I don't think it has ever been cheaper to craft or buy a legendary.

    Are you insane? The MC price's never been higher, i remember buying mystic weapons for my HoT elite's weapons collections for 10Goldish, i am trying to make the dragonhunter longbow and the mystic bow IS FREAKING 99 GOLD, it is insane.

  • Zaxares.5419Zaxares.5419 Member ✭✭✭

    @AquaBR.9250 said:

    @Cuks.8241 said:
    You're assuming mystic coins are the only source of clovers. I don't think it has ever been cheaper to craft or buy a legendary.

    Are you insane? The MC price's never been higher, i remember buying mystic weapons for my HoT elite's weapons collections for 10Goldish, i am trying to make the dragonhunter longbow and the mystic bow IS FREAKING 99 GOLD, it is insane.

    They probably means they're getting their clovers from other sources, most likely either from PvP/WvW reward tracks (doable, but pretty slow), or just hardcore grinding in Drizzlewood Coast (they come from the final chests of the various Legion repeatable achieves).

  • Rihar.3465Rihar.3465 Member ✭✭✭

    @Khisanth.2948 said:
    That comparison doesn't work at all since the coins can be obtained without paying anyone for it AND without negatively affecting anyone else.
    That comparison becomes even worse when considering the fact that not having the insulin can lead to death while coins are for luxury items.

    This comparison works in terms of monopoly regulations and market analogy, and taking it too literal and moreover discussing healthcare and possible deaths is kinda strange for me. It's out of topic. The coins can be obtained from many sources, as well as from crafting mystic clovers, that's true.

    But again, this is purely in-game market problem and a matter of in-game economics balance between the amount of coins players can obtain simply by playing (daily rewards, anomaly, fractals etc), the amount they can buy on TP by playing and earning gold, and the amount players throw into the Mystic Toilet (=mystic coins sink).

    While you still get the same amount of coins from daily rewards (in example), the price according to GW2BLTC is increasing linearly. It is fine if we assume that the cost increasing is proportional to in-game gold inflation.

    And my opinion is that it is ANet responsibility to keep this valuable currency safe for the sake of our game experience, since GW2 is not EVE Online, and GW2 market is simplified as hell.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Rihar.3465 said:
    While you still get the same amount of coins from daily rewards (in example), the price according to GW2BLTC is increasing linearly. It is fine if we assume that the cost increasing is proportional to in-game gold inflation.

    Well, it is not. The trend of MC price increase has nothing to do with overall market trends, and in general the game is doing a great job in preventing inflation. MCs are an exception here.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • I don’t get your point. People that have money generally play more and are of higher skill level. Either that or they convert gems to gold. But for a casual person a legendary is a big task that takes a long time. I hate using the forge myself, but it’s the only way I get clovers in a timeley fashion so I can maybe make a legendary in a month. I have played for eight years and do fractal cms daily, so why should I be timegated and limited when I earn gold daily by doing the top tier content? It’s like saying let’s give people who play less a legendary in the same time.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    (split the post into 3 parts, as each addresses a separate argument)

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    The implication there is a 'shortage' of MC's is rather nonsensical. There CAN'T be a shortage of items you get for FREE over time.

    People that are suffering in a hospital near me due to shortage of oxygen would probably disagree with you.

    Notice: i'm not comparing their problem with problem of people having issues with lack of MCs, obviously. I'm just bringing it up to show that your argument is false.

    In short: there can be a shortage of something even if some people are still able to buy as much as they want of it. And there can be a shortage of something even if you receive some amount of it for free over time.

    No, their isn't a shortage of oxygen. It's in all the air we breathe. Anyways, my argument isn't false because there is no shortage of MC's ... if you want them, go buy them.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    If what is 'scarce' depends on the individual's rate of consumption, that's not a problem Anet needs to solve to begin with. No argument based on the point of 'subjective scarcity' will be a compelling reason to make certain materials more widely available. If you can't get enough MC's in the timeframe you want them with the methods available, that's not a game problem.

    You are the one trying to base the scarcity around individual availability, and not a general one.

    No, that's not true because I'm not making ANY point based on scarcity either way so ...

    Fair enough, i misread. It wasn't you, it was someone else.

    One person being able to buy enough MCs for their need is (unlike what you claimed earlier) not a sign that there's no scarcity. Scarcity is when the overall demand is greater than supply (and when an increase in demand cannot be met with increase in supply, because there's some sort of limit on that) - and that's what is happening with MCs. The price keeps going up, because for years the supply cannot catch up with demand.

    OK ... it doesn't matter what your definition of scarcity is because something being scarce that we have multiple ways to obtain means scarcity isn't a problem.

    Sure, scarcity may not be a problem to some people, but it doesn't make it disappear. Like we already agreed upon, "subjective scarcity" arguments are worthless - and if they are worthless, they are so in both directions.

    I get it ... try to show MC's are "scarce", and hope Anet jumps in with a 'Doric Lake' solution to MC's .. RIGHT? Unfortunately, that approach doesn't make sense because I'm pretty sure Anet didn't forget they literally give MC's away for free to everyone.

    Well, them giving away MCs "for free" to everyone did not prevent them from introducing quite a number of other sources for them during the years. So, obviously, they already felt there was some problem with supply when they were doing that. And yet, even after that, the price keeps going up. Which means supply still didn't catch up with demand.

    Except the price has nothing to do with it. Those extra sources weren't added because of the price because they weren't expensive when they were added. They were added because MC's were hard to get. Now they aren't hard to get. It's the same thing with Doric Lake. The solutions for 'scarcity' or whatever you want to call it are solved.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cleopatra.4068 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cleopatra.4068 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    The implication there is a 'shortage' of MC's is rather nonsensical. There CAN'T be a shortage of items you get for FREE over time. Maybe you don't get as many as you want when you want them ... but that certainly is not honest to say that's a 'shortage'.

    When the demand exceeds the supply, that is a shortage.

    Not getting as many as you want when you want them is literally the definition of a shortage.

    Neither of these things are the definition of shortage. MC are available, on the TP at market prices OR over time, for FREE if you need them. Even if those options don't fulfill your own self-defined criteria for reasonable access to MC's, that's certainly no reason to claim we have a shortage to justify the idea Anet needs to appease people with more access to MC's.

    No 're-defining' of established language can hid the fact that every one of these MC threads is simply a complaint about the price of MC's in a fair market by people who aren't patient enough to collect them via login rewards or content that gives them as rewards.

    Shortage: noun, a situation in which there is less of something than people want or need

    Literally the definition. In the dictionary. I’m redefining nothing.

    short·age
    /ˈSHôrdij/
    noun
    noun: shortage; plural noun: shortages

    a state or situation in which something needed cannot be obtained in sufficient amounts.
    

    As of this posting, there are 29,322 mystic coins in the BLTC. How many do you need? How many do you want? These 29,322 are easily obtainable for 2g16s17c each right now. Anyone can purchase gems, convert to gold and then buy mystic coins. If 29,322 people purchased one mystic coin right now, then there would be a scarcity. Players who want or need MC for whatever reason can obtain them, either from the BLTC or by logging on as has been detailed in previous posts.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Those extra sources weren't added because of the price because they weren't expensive when they were added.

    All of those sources were added after MCs price started its trek up, and after first voices of concern appeared. Not before.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    (split the post into 3 parts, as each addresses a separate argument)

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    The implication there is a 'shortage' of MC's is rather nonsensical. There CAN'T be a shortage of items you get for FREE over time.

    People that are suffering in a hospital near me due to shortage of oxygen would probably disagree with you.

    Notice: i'm not comparing their problem with problem of people having issues with lack of MCs, obviously. I'm just bringing it up to show that your argument is false.

    In short: there can be a shortage of something even if some people are still able to buy as much as they want of it. And there can be a shortage of something even if you receive some amount of it for free over time.

    You're misusing the term just as Cleopatra did; especially with your analogy (there's a difference between one's ability to process oxygen to sustain their life and the supply of oxygen in the world). There are many ways to acquire mystic coins in the game as well as ways to bypass needing some or all of them them if going for legendaries as you have many ways to acquire mystic clovers as well. There isn't a shortage of supply of mystic coins.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @ASP.8093 said:
    The way that MC acquisition is front-loaded makes this arrangement good for casual players who want a bit of gold to play with, the free sources of MCs and Clovers are sufficient for someone who wants to make a Legendary as a long-term goal to get those components without having to care about TP prices, and if the people who want to be swimming in bling end up subsidizing the first group a bit by buying MCs at 2g10s instead of 1g20s, I am 100% fine with that, it's fine, I absolutely do not care.

    I like that a lot as well! I have a friend that just started recently, we basically just started HoT, and since he'll probably never use MCs for anything, at least he can sell it for gold to get whatever he wants from TP. Cause all MCs are ever used for are legendaries and some skins, guild upgrades, etc., so it's not something new players would immediately need or even want. MC price only ever affects people who play this game for longer.

    EDIT: What if Anet introduces a second source of account bound MCs and they function the same as not account bound ones? What would happen? That way the non account bound ones price stays the same, while account bound ones increase the "supply" in a "non destructive" way? Idk...

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    EDIT: What if Anet introduces a second source of account bound MCs and they function the same as not account bound ones? What would happen? That way the non account bound ones price stays the same, while account bound ones increase the "supply" in a "non destructive" way? Idk...

    Account bound ones would cause the prices to decrease about just the same. You can look at the dye prices as a result of birthday gifts as an indication of what would happen.

  • Mungo Zen.9364Mungo Zen.9364 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    While we can't deny the trend for MC to go up in value, it is hardly a scarcity issue, there are other more present factors.

    I will acknowledge first that yes, there are some players who have likely bought up huge amounts of MC but, leaving their motivations aside, I know of players who have bank value in many different tradable assets. Some players having large collections of a specific item is okay, as long as those items are still attainable by the average player. With the exception of those hoarding Infusions, there are very few items unattainable by the average player.

    I think it worth noting that the ability to farm Gold today is easier than it has ever been. I can farm hundreds of gold in a week relatively easily where 5 years ago I couldn't do that. There simply wasn't the content or 'value-creep' like we have seen with recent content releases, there were not as many efficient farms. If more players have access to more gold then it stands to reason that limited items would potentially gain in value.

    When we look at farmable items such as Tier Mats, the value has gone down as there is far more available than the need is within the player base. As one item gets cheaper and players have more gold, that gold can be used on items that have lower collection rates, such as MC. This is why people claim making a Legendary item is the same or cheaper cost than previously. They are looking at the whole picture of creating a legendary, not the specific cost for one component.

    Yes, MC are used for things other than Legendary items, but they are likely the primary use for them. Considering ANet made Trinkets and T2 legendries require more MC than other Leg items might tell us that they felt at the time that there were enough MC in the population to increase the cost required.

    I do trust that ANet will make good choices for the economy (thinking of the Spirit Shard and Infusions tweaks as a recent examples). While I understand the complaints I think understanding where MC fits into the ecosystem and economy is a helpful thing. Inflation happens, we know why it happened, and it isn't just cause some people bought a bunch of them and are holding the economy ransom.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    EDIT: What if Anet introduces a second source of account bound MCs and they function the same as not account bound ones? What would happen? That way the non account bound ones price stays the same, while account bound ones increase the "supply" in a "non destructive" way? Idk...

    Account bound ones would cause the prices to decrease about just the same. You can look at the dye prices as a result of birthday gifts as an indication of what would happen.

    I guess so, yeah. With increased amount of MCs, even account ones, people would have less need to buy and same thing.
    I don't know. There doesn't seem to be a system that would please everyone so people will just have to buy them or wait them out from rewards. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

  • borgs.6103borgs.6103 Member ✭✭✭

    Did it not occur to you people who think there's a Mystic Coin scarcity problem that a lot of players, more so now than ever before, have faster ways to get the other ingredients of a legendary and that is creating a quicker demand for it?
    I mean, compare the prices of T6 mats years ago when MCs were cheap. Legendary ingredients just shifted in price. They more or less cost the same throughout the years. (Except the precursors got way cheaper) So same farming time, same cost. Just now, instead of the T6 mats having the bulk of the price, it's them blasted coins because there are a lot more people needing it faster than what the playerbase was used to.

    Check out the fable of the Boiling Frog.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Those extra sources weren't added because of the price because they weren't expensive when they were added.

    All of those sources were added after MCs price started its trek up, and after first voices of concern appeared. Not before.

    That doesn't change what I said. Sources are not added because of price, they are added because of availability. The fact remains ... MC are not 'scarce' because they are available in large quantities for anyone to purchase.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:
    Something given to every account for logging in may not qualify as scarce.

    Or it may, depending on the rate.

    Not sure that I can agree that something which is possessed by 100% of a group is scarce.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AquaBR.9250 said:

    @Cuks.8241 said:
    You're assuming mystic coins are the only source of clovers. I don't think it has ever been cheaper to craft or buy a legendary.

    Are you insane? The MC price's never been higher, i remember buying mystic weapons for my HoT elite's weapons collections for 10Goldish, i am trying to make the dragonhunter longbow and the mystic bow IS FREAKING 99 GOLD, it is insane.

    The poster is not insane. His point was the cost of crafting or buying a legendary is at its cheapest.

    Mystic coins are the only significant part that has risen in cost. The other parts have dropped

    Mystic weapons aren’t legendary.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    EDIT: What if Anet introduces a second source of account bound MCs and they function the same as not account bound ones? What would happen? That way the non account bound ones price stays the same, while account bound ones increase the "supply" in a "non destructive" way? Idk...

    How would you distribute those? Keeping in mind that spending 5 months to craft a legendary while spending a bit of effort apparently still too long and too much effort.

    Additionally you not see all the threads complaining about the game's lack of rewards? For every person complaining about the price of MCs there will be one complaining about account bound MCs being trash in the same way that other account bound items are trash. You could converted to other stuff and make gold that way but that is also true of other trash items. What has improved if you simply trade one group for the other?

    The game already generates an average of at least 200,000 coins per day from logins alone.
    290k register accounts on GW2E. 290,000 * 20/28 = 207,142
    I don't think GW2E represents 100% of the game's active population so it should be more. If you believe the opposite it could be less.

    Account bound coins also won't help with the supply because they are account bound. Would it help with demand? Maybe, maybe not. Being that much closer to being finished could also encourage people be more willing to buy a few just to finish it off. 1 person doing it wouldn't amount to much but many people doing it would end up with the opposite result instead. Can anyone actually predict the results? If so please provide sort of evidence.

    What might also help with supplies would be if people stopped making posts everyday claiming there is a shortage which discourages those 200k per day from being sold. Was the stupid toilet paper hoarding not enough of a lesson to teach people about this human behavior? People hoard stuff if you make them believe there is a shortage.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Khisanth.2948 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    EDIT: What if Anet introduces a second source of account bound MCs and they function the same as not account bound ones? What would happen? That way the non account bound ones price stays the same, while account bound ones increase the "supply" in a "non destructive" way? Idk...

    How would you distribute those? Keeping in mind that spending 5 months to craft a legendary while spending a bit of effort apparently still too long and too much effort.

    That new source should require putting in some effort, but be farmable without any timegating. Waiting is not effort.

    The game already generates an average of at least 200,000 coins per day from logins alone.
    290k register accounts on GW2E. 290,000 * 20/28 = 207,142
    I don't think GW2E represents 100% of the game's active population so it should be more. If you believe the opposite it could be less.

    First, most (or at least a lot) of gw2efficiency accounts are no longer active, and even those active are not all logging in every day. Second, the number of overall coins-per-day generation is (at least in theory) not a problem - that generation has always been greater than consumption, even before new sources for MCs and clovers were introduced. The problem is that most of created MCs are either never put into circulation, or are used for stuff other than crafting (as an investment, or as secondary currency for high-end trades). And that is partly caused by the perception that Anet is never going to touch them, and as such their prices will always keep rising. If people did not think MCs are 100% safe, a lot more would end up being sold on TP, and the price would almost certainly be lower.

    Account bound coins also won't help with the supply because they are account bound.

    If they could be farmed, that would help with lowering overall demand. And it would help with individual supply, because someone desperate for them could just go and farm them.

    Example: when i was making Nevermore, its price was probably at its highest in history, and one of the reasons for that was due to the price of elder wood then. So, i just decided to farm all the required wood on my own. And i was able to do so - i just used both the Orr spots, and kept rotating a ton of alts through them until i had enough. It took a lot of work (because Nevermore requires an absolutely insane amount of elder wood), but it could be done. With MCs there's no real option of doing something like that. It's either waiting for next timegated piece, or TP.
    Sure, if similar option would be available, most people would still decide to not put in the effort and just buy them off TP, but they would have a choice. Other than waiting while twiddling thumbs, i mean.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Abelisk.5148Abelisk.5148 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Salt Mode.3780 said:
    People seem forget that legendary items are a luxury not a necessity. It is glamour it is for looks it isn't needed for endgame content nor does it make you stronger. If you want it then farm for it, there are plenty ways to make gold now compared to making legendaries back then before HoT/PoF dropped.

    Legendary armor at least saves rune wasting/extracting. And as with all legendary items you save the need to craft or buy ascended equipment.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Do you remember the great "sigil of nullification" depression? Ah, fun times

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    Do you remember the great "sigil of nullification" depression? Ah, fun times

    At least that one eventually fixed itself - probably only because the demand was very short-term. No hope of this happening with MCs

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.