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Thieves ruin WvW

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  • TorQ.7041TorQ.7041 Member ✭✭✭

    @geist.4126 said:

    @TorQ.7041 said:

    @gebrechen.5643 said:
    Options:

    • delete the ability to undo reveal
    • set revealed to 5s
    • make stealth cost 50% of your energy

    choose one ore all of the above and apply patch.

    So you basically want to go up to them and killed them very easily in 2 hits. Then it's no longer op. Maybe they should also Nerf the defense mechanic of all other professions except the one you play. Blocks for guard, shroud for necro, clones for mes etc.

    Then once every thing else dies from you because they have zero defense then there is balance.

    None of those mentioned things destroys the class. Thieves still have a by far greater toolkit for escape than other classes around and they don't have to sacrifice anything for it - they can even run full berserker gear - which no other build can.

    Neither of what you said is true. A core thief and daredevil that's not deadeye has the mobility to escape yes, but it doesn't have the damage output. Dagger auto attack is 500dmg... And 1k crit. Sword thief is 1k auto and 2.5k crit. So we can count that out.

    Only a deadeye has that dmg out put you are so annoyed about.

    Then realized that the mobility of a deadeye is basically zero if he wants to use his intiative to shoot u. At Max a deadeye has 15 initiative. 3 round burst cost 6. It basically needs to shoot 2x 3 round bursts to get deaths judgement to get u. If u dodge any of the 2 rounds he doesn't get deaths judgement.

    If u can teleport to him and aoe he is basically dead. I can attest to this because I ve done it alot on guardian on rev and core thief...I am certain mes can teleport and aoe which I assume you are because of your icon.

    The other 1 shot build is with dagger. Which I admit I also agree is stuipd. But it means it has no steal to teleport to stab u. It had to walk over to u and stand behind u to do it. As long as u don't stand still it's very unlikely he can get u.

    But non of this actually makes sense to u because in your mind there is only 1 thing and that's hate.

    Make a deadeye and go full zerk n see. U will mostly die as many times u kill ppl.

    Secondly. One shot mes similar if not even better disengage. It can one shot u from stealth. With high evade, clones, stealth and teleport. It's auto attack is 4k 5k 7k and it's one shot burst even if it misses it's mark is still 10k.

  • Etterwyn.5263Etterwyn.5263 Member ✭✭✭

    @googel.3278 said:
    assassins and mesmers are the ultimate abomination to the game.

    So nothing has changed since GW1 then. =)

    WvW™ - where you find more Red Rings of Death than an Xbox repair facility.

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2018

    What we need is stealth decay.
    The main problems with stealth is that they can be spammed, stacked, and the longer it lasts, the wider the area in which a thief can be becomes. The larger this area, the harder it is predict where the thief may be.

    After 1-2 seconds of receiving stealth, it should decay from fully invisible to partially visible.

    If this stealth decay is introduced, stealth could last way longer, but no longer be stackable.

    While under decayed stealth, stealth attacks still work, it's still not possible to target them, player-controlled AI and NPCs still ignore them (except maybe those of elite or higher NPC rank), but at least you can see better where they are to hit them with AoEs and cleaves, and manually aimed projectiles.

    Then, the full invisibility would reset while receiving stealth from skills that give stealth to self, but not when granted stealth by someone else, or by getting stealth from a skill combo. Those would only give decayed stealth while already under stealth.
    Stealth from others and from a combo field would only give full invisibility if it's obtained while not under stealth.

    This would even allow increasing stealth durations a whole lot, since the period of full invisibility would be controlled and limited to the start of the duration, so it would even be possible to have an elite thief signet that gives passive decayed stealth for 3s every 3s, and can be activated to gain full invisibility and become unrevealable for 2s.

  • juno.1840juno.1840 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2018

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    What we need is stealth decay.
    The main problems with stealth is that they can be spammed, stacked, and the longer it lasts, the wider the area in which a thief can be becomes. The larger this area, the harder it is predict where the thief may be.

    Or cap it at a maximum duration like 2 seconds. If stealth is meant to be a combat mechanic, then there's no need to have a long duration. It becomes a mechanism to (1) break targeting, (2) gain position for attacks of opportunity, (3) use special stealth attack skills.

    Combine the short duration with "unstackable" (so it cannot be reapplied while active) and pretty much all problems with stealth go away.

    Finally rename the skill "vanish".

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    @TorQ.7041 said:
    Make a deadeye and go full zerk n see. U will mostly die as many times u kill ppl.

    Secondly. One shot mes similar if not even better disengage. It can one shot u from stealth. With high evade, clones, stealth and teleport. It's auto attack is 4k 5k 7k and it's one shot burst even if it misses it's mark is still 10k.

    I played thief the whole weekend. Marauder gear, berserker/assassin trinkets. And I did exactly that with a d/d build. For five to six kills I did one time. The skill cap for this is between making coffee and sitting down in a chair if you can read your skill description and are not hunted by a larger group.

    Yes, mesmer is stupid at this too, but we talk thieves here. Feel free to post this into a mesmer thread.

    WSR is the only server where people call in /t for help when dueling.

  • TorQ.7041TorQ.7041 Member ✭✭✭

    @geist.4126 said:

    @TorQ.7041 said:
    I really have had zero problems when I play Holo rev thief or guard vs deadeye. If u can leap or teleport to a DE and aoe. They r basically dead.

    You shouldn't play vs. thieves that play with a steering wheel. Helps a lot.
    As already said. Longer reveal doesn't break thieves. Neither does a nerf for DE elite. Even if you do both thief will be top of the food chain in roaming. It's nice trying to derail this discussion every time your precious "no risc, high reward - class" gets called out, but it's getting old pretty fast.
    The fun part is that almost everything that really countered thieves has been nerfed in the last years, while thieves got a massive buff with the DE elite to their hardcounter (reveal)

    And saying "deadeye has no mobility" is utterly stupid. He doesn't lose any mobility as a rifle DE vs a dagger DE.

    Dude. Do you even know how thief works at all?

    Core thief gets mobility from acrobatics that give perma swiftness. Daredevil line gives perma swiftness and triple dodge. Each dodge gets extra distance.

    Deadeye has non of those things. I think you are thinking of shortbow. If you doing 2 3 round bursts from 15 intatiative that's 6x2=12. You have 3 intatiative. U can't possibly move into shortbow n run away. The best thing u can do is dodge roll into stealth.

    Longer reveal doesn't break core thief because it doesn't use stealth anyway. But it will kill deadeye because deadeye basically has no defense. As deadeye u are also in crouch skill 5. Meaning u can only roll to the side.

    Seriously man. Make one and play it before you comment. In the same way I made a one shot mes to see it's not prefect.

  • TorQ.7041TorQ.7041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2018

    @geist.4126 said:

    @TorQ.7041 said:
    I really have had zero problems when I play Holo rev thief or guard vs deadeye. If u can leap or teleport to a DE and aoe. They r basically dead.

    You shouldn't play vs. thieves that play with a steering wheel. Helps a lot.
    As already said. Longer reveal doesn't break thieves. Neither does a nerf for DE elite. Even if you do both thief will be top of the food chain in roaming. It's nice trying to derail this discussion every time your precious "no risc, high reward - class" gets called out, but it's getting old pretty fast.
    The fun part is that almost everything that really countered thieves has been nerfed in the last years, while thieves got a massive buff with the DE elite to their hardcounter (reveal)

    And saying "deadeye has no mobility" is utterly stupid. He doesn't lose any mobility as a rifle DE vs a dagger DE.

    Lol. Honestly everything that had countered thief has not been nerfed.

    And no it's not my spec. I actually play daredevil thief 90% of the time and I have had no problems with deadeye. A mesmer should also have zero problems if you know how to play.

    Let's just end this discussion. Because untill you actually go play it. You really have zero idea on what you are talking about.

    Can you even name one specific trait line and or skill that let's u get out of crouch position and to instead escape instantly? No u can't because it doesn't exist. Deadeye basically presses skill 3 and skill 2 after skill 5. It's fixed and immobile. And you can only get out of crouch and move after a 1 second delay. This means the instant u teleport and aoe. A DE has to leave because it will need to block all it's cool down.

    It also has only 1 Condi cleanse. U can go Condi mirage and mass clone. Ur clones will basically auto attack and kill it. Zero thinking required. Shorts on YouTube literally made a vid to show u u can make mass clones to auto condo attack.

    U can make a deadeye and go 1v1. I guarantee u. U will die alot. All except necro... Cos necro has has zero defense against deadeye..

  • TorQ.7041TorQ.7041 Member ✭✭✭

    @geist.4126 said:

    @TorQ.7041 said:
    Make a deadeye and go full zerk n see. U will mostly die as many times u kill ppl.

    Secondly. One shot mes similar if not even better disengage. It can one shot u from stealth. With high evade, clones, stealth and teleport. It's auto attack is 4k 5k 7k and it's one shot burst even if it misses it's mark is still 10k.

    I played thief the whole weekend. Marauder gear, berserker/assassin trinkets. And I did exactly that with a d/d build. For five to six kills I did one time. The skill cap for this is between making coffee and sitting down in a chair if you can read your skill description and are not hunted by a larger group.

    Yes, mesmer is stupid at this too, but we talk thieves here. Feel free to post this into a mesmer thread.

    I seriously doubt u did. Since u believe the mobility of a deadeye is the same as daredevil. In no world is it even remotely close. That's why it's not on meta as meta builds in pvp.

  • @juno.1840 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    What we need is stealth decay.
    The main problems with stealth is that they can be spammed, stacked, and the longer it lasts, the wider the area in which a thief can be becomes. The larger this area, the harder it is predict where the thief may be.

    Or cap it at a maximum duration like 2 seconds. If stealth is meant to be a combat mechanic, then there's no need to have a long duration. It becomes a mechanism to (1) break targeting, (2) gain position for attacks of opportunity, (3) use special stealth attack skills.

    Combine the short duration with "unstackable" (so it cannot be reapplied while active) and pretty much all problems with stealth go away.

    Finally rename the skill "vanish".

    A hard cap would create issues a soft cap and decay would not.

    There's places in the game in which players are actually meant to have longer stealth. Stealth decay and two types of stealth: one fully invisible, one partially invisible, solve those problems.

  • TorQ.7041TorQ.7041 Member ✭✭✭

    @geist.4126 said:

    @TorQ.7041 said:
    Make a deadeye and go full zerk n see. U will mostly die as many times u kill ppl.

    Secondly. One shot mes similar if not even better disengage. It can one shot u from stealth. With high evade, clones, stealth and teleport. It's auto attack is 4k 5k 7k and it's one shot burst even if it misses it's mark is still 10k.

    I played thief the whole weekend. Marauder gear, berserker/assassin trinkets. And I did exactly that with a d/d build. For five to six kills I did one time. The skill cap for this is between making coffee and sitting down in a chair if you can read your skill description and are not hunted by a larger group.

    Yes, mesmer is stupid at this too, but we talk thieves here. Feel free to post this into a mesmer thread.

    I tell you what. Based on your rules. Reveal 5 seconds meaning u cannot stealth for 5 seconds each time. I will 1v1 you with every single class apart from necro.

    I don't even know half the classes but I guarantee u I will win more than 50/50 of the time.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TorQ.7041 said:

    @geist.4126 said:

    @TorQ.7041 said:
    Make a deadeye and go full zerk n see. U will mostly die as many times u kill ppl.

    Secondly. One shot mes similar if not even better disengage. It can one shot u from stealth. With high evade, clones, stealth and teleport. It's auto attack is 4k 5k 7k and it's one shot burst even if it misses it's mark is still 10k.

    I played thief the whole weekend. Marauder gear, berserker/assassin trinkets. And I did exactly that with a d/d build. For five to six kills I did one time. The skill cap for this is between making coffee and sitting down in a chair if you can read your skill description and are not hunted by a larger group.

    Yes, mesmer is stupid at this too, but we talk thieves here. Feel free to post this into a mesmer thread.

    I seriously doubt u did. Since u believe the mobility of a deadeye is the same as daredevil. In no world is it even remotely close. That's why it's not on meta as meta builds in pvp.

    Actually, you could do this kinda dmg as core/daredevil thanks to assassins signet, yet another bull kitten power creep buffs. Anyone 1 can pop assassin signet- steal - cnd - backstab

    Any of the so called 1 shot or Insta kill builds require little skill tbh and all classes can do it - if built to do so.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Was messing with core necro today and it's hilarious because deadeyes are just dying with my life transfer.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sylosi.6503 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Adamarc.7463 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:
    Sacrificing a utility JUST for thieves is insane imo.

    Most DE builds are so dependent on Stealth, even just for a few seconds, that they are required to use Shadow Meld as their elite in case of Reveal.

    Just shows how badly they are designed for WvW.

    A bad design because a DE is pigeon holed into an elite skill or for some other reason? Any suggestions for a replacement?

    Cough

    Anything based on sustained stealth and/or capable of sustained stealth and safe burst damage is literally impossible to balance and make fun to play as/against based on how the combat in this game works.

    The idea of more stealth on the thief, especially as a ranged burst damage dealer, never should have made it past the early stages of the drawing board.

    The casuals need it, to overperform their capabilities as casuals.

    As opposed to non-casuals who need a game that aims for them, is full of passives, is largely slow paced and is an imbalanced cheesefest where the meta cheese carries very, very hard and a game mode that is competitively dismal, to "overperform their capabilities".

    Some players still find it skilled.... playing over performing classes/builds, due how poor care on Anet puts on the classes design, well game was ment to be just that...

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • TorQ.7041TorQ.7041 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @TorQ.7041 said:

    @geist.4126 said:

    @TorQ.7041 said:
    Make a deadeye and go full zerk n see. U will mostly die as many times u kill ppl.

    Secondly. One shot mes similar if not even better disengage. It can one shot u from stealth. With high evade, clones, stealth and teleport. It's auto attack is 4k 5k 7k and it's one shot burst even if it misses it's mark is still 10k.

    I played thief the whole weekend. Marauder gear, berserker/assassin trinkets. And I did exactly that with a d/d build. For five to six kills I did one time. The skill cap for this is between making coffee and sitting down in a chair if you can read your skill description and are not hunted by a larger group.

    Yes, mesmer is stupid at this too, but we talk thieves here. Feel free to post this into a mesmer thread.

    I seriously doubt u did. Since u believe the mobility of a deadeye is the same as daredevil. In no world is it even remotely close. That's why it's not on meta as meta builds in pvp.

    Actually, you could do this kinda dmg as core/daredevil thanks to assassins signet, yet another bull kitten power creep buffs. Anyone 1 can pop assassin signet- steal - cnd - backstab

    Any of the so called 1 shot or Insta kill builds require little skill tbh and all classes can do it - if built to do so.

    I said mobility.. also depending on what u are running. Even with power signet a backstab won't kill you. A default backstab is 6k with power signet maybe you can assume double. It won't kill any kind of build not wearing zerk. What does do instagib is deadeye with power signet and backstab because malice gives extra dmg.

    For the record I don't like one hit kills at all. I also think it's skill less. I agree this should be nerfed for all classes but I think it needs to be nerfed in a way where who ever one the oppenent is gets an opportunity to react. If some one believes they are good enough to skillfully play in full zerk so be it but the other person should be given a chance to react.

  • TorQ.7041TorQ.7041 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @geist.4126 said:
    they can even run full berserker gear - which no other build can.

    Hi you must be new to WvW.
    Things that can run full berserker and be successful:

    • Reaper
    • Warrior
    • Spellbreaker
    • Ranger
    • Druid
    • Soulbeast
    • Holosmith
    • Mesmer
    • Chronomancer
    • Mirage
    • Deadeye
    • Dragonhunter

    Things that can't:

    • Necro
    • Scourge
    • Berserker
    • Thief
    • Daredevil
    • Rev
    • Herald
    • Renegade
    • Engi
    • Scrapper
    • Ele
    • Tempest
    • Weaver
    • Guard
    • Firebrand

    "This"

    Explained it better than I can in less words lol.

  • @geist.4126 said:
    I played thief the whole weekend. Marauder gear, berserker/assassin trinkets. And I did exactly that with a d/d build. For five to six kills I did one time. The skill cap for this is between making coffee and sitting down in a chair if you can read your skill description and are not hunted by a larger group.

    dude told yout to try full berserker gear,
    you reply with marauder gear and berserker/assasin trinkets.

    that's not full berserker.

    (and I have seen roamers on the map complaining about marauder stat set how "OP" and "broken" it is on it's own.....)

  • Noha.3749Noha.3749 Member ✭✭✭

    Thieves doesnt ruin WvW more than firebrand/scourge meta :p

    Thieves might beat some professions 1v1, but they cant do much more than that. They are fast and bursty, thats it.

    Firebrand/Scourge is 90% of the WvW community and just makes things REALLY boring. Worthless in 1v1 but dominates any XvX. All they do is cluttering the closest kilometers with red circles of dullness while chugging boons.

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @geist.4126 said:
    they can even run full berserker gear - which no other build can.

    Hi you must be new to WvW.
    Things that can run full berserker and be successful:

    • Reaper
    • Warrior
    • Spellbreaker
    • Ranger
    • Druid
    • Soulbeast
    • Holosmith
    • Mesmer
    • Chronomancer
    • Mirage
    • Deadeye
    • Dragonhunter

    On NA maybe, where the skillfloor is somewhat beyone pressing 1,2 all the time. Maybe I let warrior count. "Can" isn't "I win 1 of 3 encounters".

    WSR is the only server where people call in /t for help when dueling.

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @geist.4126 said:
    I played thief the whole weekend. Marauder gear, berserker/assassin trinkets. And I did exactly that with a d/d build. For five to six kills I did one time. The skill cap for this is between making coffee and sitting down in a chair if you can read your skill description and are not hunted by a larger group.

    dude told yout to try full berserker gear,
    you reply with marauder gear and berserker/assasin trinkets.

    that's not full berserker.

    (and I have seen roamers on the map complaining about marauder stat set how "OP" and "broken" it is on it's own.....)

    If I had a full berserker set I'd run it. Marauder doesn't make a difference, when you most of the time oneshot people. It just helps when you need to run. The times I died on that project I wouldn't have died more with berserker than with 6 pieces marauder, because the opponent didn't hit me.
    That's the whole thing about thief. You are fast, you have tons of escape, you burst like no one else and have unlimited access to stealth. The marauder gear gives you 2k extra hp which is nothing if your main goal is not to get hit. (you lose ~6-7% crit)

    WSR is the only server where people call in /t for help when dueling.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @geist.4126 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @geist.4126 said:
    they can even run full berserker gear - which no other build can.

    Hi you must be new to WvW.
    Things that can run full berserker and be successful:

    • Reaper
    • Warrior
    • Spellbreaker
    • Ranger
    • Druid
    • Soulbeast
    • Holosmith
    • Mesmer
    • Chronomancer
    • Mirage
    • Deadeye
    • Dragonhunter

    On NA maybe, where the skillfloor is somewhat beyone pressing 1,2 all the time. Maybe I let warrior count. "Can" isn't "I win 1 of 3 encounters".

    Generally I find that NA roamers are far more formidable than EU roamers. This is from my experience playing in both regions. I like your defensive stance on the matter though, it shows spirit! That will help as you gain experience playing in WvW. Full berserker is not recommended for newcomers to smallscale/roaming - you mostly have to be on top of your game and be very wary of enemy bursts, using your defenses and heals wisely.

    Fort Aspenwood
    [ShW] Jekkies

  • It’s deadeye that’s broken at the moment, at least normally thief’s have to get close to do damage which presents a risk, deadeye completely negates this one weakness.

  • @oOStaticOo.9467 said:
    I still say that Thieves should have 2 modes. Stealth/Mobility mode where they can run around without being seen and scout but not attack. Attack mode where they can attack and have some mobility but no Stealth.

    BEST IDEA EVER

  • @geist.4126 said:

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @geist.4126 said:
    I played thief the whole weekend. Marauder gear, berserker/assassin trinkets. And I did exactly that with a d/d build. For five to six kills I did one time. The skill cap for this is between making coffee and sitting down in a chair if you can read your skill description and are not hunted by a larger group.

    dude told yout to try full berserker gear,
    you reply with marauder gear and berserker/assasin trinkets.

    that's not full berserker.

    (and I have seen roamers on the map complaining about marauder stat set how "OP" and "broken" it is on it's own.....)

    If I had a full berserker set I'd run it. Marauder doesn't make a difference, when you most of the time oneshot people. It just helps when you need to run. The times I died on that project I wouldn't have died more with berserker than with 6 pieces marauder, because the opponent didn't hit me.
    That's the whole thing about thief. You are fast, you have tons of escape, you burst like no one else and have unlimited access to stealth. The marauder gear gives you 2k extra hp which is nothing if your main goal is not to get hit. (you lose ~6-7% crit)

    which is exacly why marauder set was not removed from sPvP for being unbala.... oh wait

    so maybe that additional HP actually does make a difference, huh?

    "never being hit" is not going to happen if your oponent has half a brain

  • It's not thieves that's brokem. It's Deadeye specifically. Their easy perma stealthing and 1 shot downing ability is absurd. Their only counter (reveal) is removed by a two count ammo skill which is absurd. I don't understand why the only counter they have is countered by a simple utility. Anet truly doesn't play their own game.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As I said in the countless thieves threads, stealth should get removed, it's a kitten mechanic that ruins every single mmo out there, the difference is that gw2 made it even worse the everybody else.
    But well, since it won't happen, remove the ability to stack stealth and change shadow meld to something else.

    The degenerate

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2018

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    which is exacly why marauder set was not removed from sPvP for being unbala.... oh wait

    so maybe that additional HP actually does make a difference, huh?

    "never being hit" is not going to happen if your oponent has half a brain

    Still you won't die on that 2k hp difference by the majority of hits in WvW. Especially when you are in stealth, so not targetable, and are not in short range. Which you almost never are on a thief except for your short window of dealing damage before you go back to stealth or "port away". That's why I said "groups" are the only problem.

    And about that "sPvP" comparison: 2k HP in sPvP mean a lot more than in WvW. I'd be totally fine if Anet decides to put the same templates into wvw.

    WSR is the only server where people call in /t for help when dueling.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SoV.5139 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:
    Sacrificing a utility JUST for thieves is insane imo.

    Most DE builds are so dependent on Stealth, even just for a few seconds, that they are required to use Shadow Meld as their elite in case of Reveal.

    Sacrificing an ELITE just to play the profession is insane imo.

    When an elite is so powerful than any other elite is trash compared to it, this is an indicator it needs a nerf.

    Are you comparing it to other elites that the Thief has? Or other elites across all professions? Because one is subjective and the other one is flat out wrong.

    Fort Aspenwood
    [ShW] Jekkies

  • Ehh Try to decloak a Thief as Revenant without wasting all your cash. But why not simply add something like 3 tries to ressurect someone. After those 3 tries they get auto ported back to spawn irregardless of timer. Thus the 5 minute timer ain't need to be changed, but it prevents thieves from simply resetting this timer over and over with 1 tick res as the target would get ported back to spawn after the 3rd try. But yea no. Unstealthing a thief isn't the same on all classes. As mentioned Revenants HAVe to pay to be able to decloak a thief. Nice pay to win mechanic.

  • Odokuro.5049Odokuro.5049 Member ✭✭✭

    Or have a squad of five players whos characters possess strong reveal skills, talents and alike to comb over the area.

    Surely this must be more entertaining than pressing "1" on your keyboard when you're in the blob. But this just may be an, "Odd", thought I have.

    The Self-Appointed Pervy Sage of Dragonbrand.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Honestly I'd have no problem if stealth was removed and we got better sustain through heals and boons like every other class does, so I can stay in a fight more. Not sure if everyone else wants more durable thieves tho, you may find that even more annoying than stealth thief.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    How about we just buff reveal to 10 seconds after out of stealth and change the damage modifiers for dagger and rifle attacks instead? You already have mobility, stun breaks, high damage, best access to stealth and condi cleanse. You don't need all of these tools to play your class.
    It just changes the skill floor for thieves a bit. It won't be as low risk as it is now or better "is since release".

    WSR is the only server where people call in /t for help when dueling.

  • Fallesafe.5932Fallesafe.5932 Member ✭✭✭

    @Gondolph.7201 said:
    currently there is a increasing use of thieves in WvW. The tactics is usually the following: 3 thieves are in the (enemies) castle. We tried as a zerg to kill them, but you need approx. 20 min sometimes tro get 2 of them. The stealth disruption trap is almost useless now, since the death-eye is visible for approx. 2-3 sec now. They are almost permanent invisible anyway.
    So if the zerg does not want to run for hours behind phantoms, the leader finally decides to ignore thieves. and go for fights then. 10 minutes later the castle is fallen. Half of the game mechanics renders obsolete, there is no point anymore in nurturing castles to higher levels, unless the full zerg remains in it.

    that is no fun anymore.

    Yeah, ok. Try playing one.

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fallesafe.5932 said:

    @Gondolph.7201 said:
    currently there is a increasing use of thieves in WvW. The tactics is usually the following: 3 thieves are in the (enemies) castle. We tried as a zerg to kill them, but you need approx. 20 min sometimes tro get 2 of them. The stealth disruption trap is almost useless now, since the death-eye is visible for approx. 2-3 sec now. They are almost permanent invisible anyway.
    So if the zerg does not want to run for hours behind phantoms, the leader finally decides to ignore thieves. and go for fights then. 10 minutes later the castle is fallen. Half of the game mechanics renders obsolete, there is no point anymore in nurturing castles to higher levels, unless the full zerg remains in it.

    that is no fun anymore.

    Yeah, ok. Try playing one.

    why? hes not correct?
    u can permastealth u just kneel put down 4 i believe and heartseeker against a wall no1 see ur kitten on ground it cost less ini then blackpowder top of that u can just dodge roll top of that u can use ur heal skill top of that u have plenty of skills to keep stealthed.

    now i did play one infact i main thief but not deadeye i always seem to get bored within 1/2 kills on deadeye.
    the people here are correct, the stealth on deadeye is out of hand and its kitten the way deadeye works now.
    what i would love to see is a nerf on deadeye trait line and not on core thief trait line other non deadeyes dont have to be punished for a kitten elite that isnt even remotely fun to play.

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    Only thief players and anet balancing team thinks that a 11k vault followed by a 13k vault is 'balanced' and ok.

    Sure, it is balanced, if everyone has a base HP of 50k. Until that happens, just 1/4th thief damage output or remove the class altogether. It is broken, it was broken. You had 6 years and in all that time you made it worse. So time to confess that you can't balance it, and nerf it into oblivion where it belongs.

    yes meanwhile (not crying for nerf) a warrior is spanking me 4/5k/4k while doing 1111 with his axe or w/e he was doing but was same kitten hitting me, till i died.
    only if every1 would get put back in place.
    thief is by far not superior anymore at dealing dmg i can play rev and hit for 14k also while i dont even have to pop skills or be risky just hammer 2 all over the place and enjoy. :D

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2018

    @reddie.5861 said:

    thief is by far not superior anymore at dealing dmg i can play rev and hit for 14k also while i dont even have to pop skills or be risky just hammer 2 all over the place and enjoy. :D

    You mean those 14k damage that comes with a really huge animation you can't miss is similar to a 15k backstab or death's judgement coming out of stealth?
    Or do you try to compare the "I hit you and vanish into thin air to do the same stuff again" vs slow heavy armor class that has almost no defense when being attacked?

    WSR is the only server where people call in /t for help when dueling.

  • @reddie.5861 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    Only thief players and anet balancing team thinks that a 11k vault followed by a 13k vault is 'balanced' and ok.

    Sure, it is balanced, if everyone has a base HP of 50k. Until that happens, just 1/4th thief damage output or remove the class altogether. It is broken, it was broken. You had 6 years and in all that time you made it worse. So time to confess that you can't balance it, and nerf it into oblivion where it belongs.

    yes meanwhile (not crying for nerf) a warrior is spanking me 4/5k/4k while doing 1111 with his axe or w/e he was doing but was same kitten hitting me, till i died.
    only if every1 would get put back in place.
    thief is by far not superior anymore at dealing dmg i can play rev and hit for 14k also while i dont even have to pop skills or be risky just hammer 2 all over the place and enjoy. :D

    and while the rev can hit for 14k, you see him coming. You see him, you see the animation, you see the effect. You can react. And afterwards, you can take him down.

    A thief vaulting you? You know it the moment you go down. No defense against it. Sure, deadeye is even worse. But that is not an excuse, just another point proving that the entire thief class is broken - and anet is doing nothing about it.

  • Virelion.4128Virelion.4128 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

    @oOStaticOo.9467 said:
    I still say that Thieves should have 2 modes. Stealth/Mobility mode where they can run around without being seen and scout but not attack. Attack mode where they can attack and have some mobility but no Stealth.

    No. Stealth is a major part of thiefs defenses, along with their mobility. Remove it, and you'll have to compensate them. Which you probably wont like.

    The stealth protects them by giving them a needed buff to damage resistance to protect them from AoE spam, and to break targeting of moves that will kill them. Also remember that a thief that is perma stealth has several major vulnerabilities. Condi, cc, and limited escape options.

    Alongside with mobility, blinds and ton of evades and in case of DE add very long range.
    You have defensive tools, even more than other classes. Also considering how much dmg you do you should be such a glass cannon you should die just by looking at you.
    Nerf stealth into oblivion.

  • @oOStaticOo.9467 said:
    I still say that Thieves should have 2 modes. Stealth/Mobility mode where they can run around without being seen and scout but not attack. Attack mode where they can attack and have some mobility but no Stealth.

    This is actually basically what they already have done, except that backstab dmg does insane amounts of dmg which almost annuls the rest of the class balance (I think thieves where rather just quickly backstab optimized so they would be viable in melee raid dps roles (and to make space for "warriors with daggers"), those things had a bad impact in the other game modes.

    I never played invisible backstab builds much, but quite abit as a "flashy swashbuckler sword thief" that only stealths to escape really bad situations, but its nerfed so bad it doesnt deal competitive dmg these days, u gotta stealth + dagger these days (or p/p), too weak for everything else.

    _/_ [SSSh] Secret Society Service _/_
    [Respect Ur Opponents, We All Provide Eachothers Fun]
    Blackgate Since Season 1

  • @RangerThings.9810 said:

    @Sunapollo.9152 said:
    How about making a “invisible dimension” such that if you are also invisible then you can see the other invisible players in the same dimension?

    In DAoC, the original WvW, stealth classes could spec to see other stealth classes. Higher spec, further vision. This would be a great thief mechanic imho.

    I really like this idea.

  • @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

    @Pelto.9364 said:

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

    No. Stealth is a major part of thiefs defenses, along with their mobility. Remove it, and you'll have to compensate them. Which you probably wont like.

    The stealth protects them by giving them a needed buff to damage resistance to protect them from AoE spam, and to break targeting of moves that will kill them. Also remember that a thief that is perma stealth has several major vulnerabilities. Condi, cc, and limited escape options.

    Then why my core power necro does not have stealths, mobility, evades, block etc? Core power necro needs them too. ((Any top necro player could 1v1 with core power necro vs deadeye?))

    because necro has other means of protecting themselves and staying alive.

    Citation needed

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Virelion.4128 said:

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

    @oOStaticOo.9467 said:
    I still say that Thieves should have 2 modes. Stealth/Mobility mode where they can run around without being seen and scout but not attack. Attack mode where they can attack and have some mobility but no Stealth.

    No. Stealth is a major part of thiefs defenses, along with their mobility. Remove it, and you'll have to compensate them. Which you probably wont like.

    The stealth protects them by giving them a needed buff to damage resistance to protect them from AoE spam, and to break targeting of moves that will kill them. Also remember that a thief that is perma stealth has several major vulnerabilities. Condi, cc, and limited escape options.

    Alongside with mobility, blinds and ton of evades and in case of DE add very long range.
    You have defensive tools, even more than other classes. Also considering how much dmg you do you should be such a glass cannon you should die just by looking at you.
    Nerf stealth into oblivion.

    You understand a class can have all of those tools but not be able to have all of them at the same time right? "nerf stealth into oblivion", there's a brilliant idea, and after that?

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Virelion.4128 said:

    @Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

    @oOStaticOo.9467 said:
    I still say that Thieves should have 2 modes. Stealth/Mobility mode where they can run around without being seen and scout but not attack. Attack mode where they can attack and have some mobility but no Stealth.

    No. Stealth is a major part of thiefs defenses, along with their mobility. Remove it, and you'll have to compensate them. Which you probably wont like.

    The stealth protects them by giving them a needed buff to damage resistance to protect them from AoE spam, and to break targeting of moves that will kill them. Also remember that a thief that is perma stealth has several major vulnerabilities. Condi, cc, and limited escape options.

    Alongside with mobility, blinds and ton of evades and in case of DE add very long range.
    You have defensive tools, even more than other classes. Also considering how much dmg you do you should be such a glass cannon you should die just by looking at you.
    Nerf stealth into oblivion.

    You understand a class can have all of those tools but not be able to have all of them at the same time right? "nerf stealth into oblivion", there's a brilliant idea, and after that?

    I think if they nerf it into oblivion or remove it, then thieves will become like very agile warriors dancing around people and ignoring dmg and receiving passives. Or imagine if thieves got their skills like weavers, that would be kind of interesting. I don't mind playing piano solo on keyboard but I bet it'll still make people cry.

  • The way other games approach the 'rogue' class is with high mobility and stealth while placing emphasis on an opening attack (ambushing your target). This game enables what the majority of others condemn.. virtually endless stealth if you build for it and the counterplay does exist but it's low risk for a high reward. I'd recommend changing so that thieves have the option to toggle a permanent stealth outside of combat and give them an elite skill that places them back in stealth while removing conditions.

    To compensate for the new lack of spammable stealth, let's give Thieves more access to evasion and maybe a temporary disarm/parry mechanic. This fits the class thematically and can be tailored for any existing trait lines. I doubt many would have objections for this new style of gameplay.

  • I noticed a few months ago that there was a single thief who stormed a tower by knocking down a wall without any siege. I do not know how he cheated doing it.