Discussion Re Open-world deaths: Player corpses become unrezzable and no longer scale up bosses — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Discussion Re Open-world deaths: Player corpses become unrezzable and no longer scale up bosses

What if player corpses become completely unrubbable and no longer scale up bosses' hps and cc bars after a certain time has passed?

unrubbable because you don't want people to intentionally suicide as a strategy

this could be limited to areas with dynamic scaling
call it decomposition or something

also, the boss' corpse-chest should not disappear if he/she dies while someone wp to respawn

I'm thinking of matriarch fights where 90% have Corpse as their elite spec, the remaining 10% are scratching her to death, and cc is impossible.
like, one of the most ridiculous fights i've been in was when 2 people have to finish her last 15% of hp, with around 25 corpses around. that's just selfish, and selfishness breeds like rabbits

Comments

  • Yargesh.4965Yargesh.4965 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2019

    According to Anet the dead do not scale up the events.

  • Goettel.4389Goettel.4389 Member ✭✭✭

    Is this the thread about rubbing corpses? ;-)
    Sorry, carry on.

  • Biff.5312Biff.5312 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yargesh.4965 said:
    According to Anet the dead do not scale up the events.

    Does that mean the event de-scales if they start off the event alive but remain lying around once dead? I find that doubtful.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Biff.5312 said:

    @Yargesh.4965 said:
    According to Anet the dead do not scale up the events.

    Does that mean the event de-scales if they start off the event alive but remain lying around once dead? I find that doubtful.

    As far as I am aware events do not scale down, they only scale up.

  • IndigoSundown.5419IndigoSundown.5419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Biff.5312 said:

    @Yargesh.4965 said:
    According to Anet the dead do not scale up the events.

    Does that mean the event de-scales if they start off the event alive but remain lying around once dead? I find that doubtful.

    "Event scaling
    Events scale both up and down according to the number of players who are currently participating. [3] Events can scale in a number of ways:

    Enemy level can be increased
    Enemies can gain new abilities
    New enemy types may appear, including veterans, elites, or even champion versions
    Enemy count can be increased
    Objective requirements may increase
    Champion enemies associated with the event will never increase in level due to scaling; this often results in elite foes that are more dangerous than the champions.

    Most events scale for up to 10 players.[4] Group events and large scale events such as the finale for meta events will scale much higher. For example, The Shatterer scales up to 100 players.

    Events will scale according to the number of players around. Even a player that is not participating will scale the event up. A player that moves away, either by walking or waypointing, will immediately scale the event down."

    From:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dynamic_event#Event_participation

    The wiki does not specifically refer to the dead, just those who leave the event area. So, events do scale down as well as up. At that point, the issue would be whether the game treats those dead for a time as having left the area -- not that events never scale down. It seems unlikely that, by, "...the dead do not scale up events..." ANet would have meant that players dead when the event starts will not scale the event up.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • Kal Spiro.9745Kal Spiro.9745 Member ✭✭✭

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    Events scale both up and down according to the number of players who are currently participating.
    Even a player that is not participating will scale the event up.

    These are mutually exclusive, so which is it?

    Tarnished Coast Kal Spiro - Ranger (80), LB/S-D, Eagle/Wolf, Signet, M/S/NM |Daredevil|Ranger
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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Anyone member when Ranger pets could be revived by other players?

    I member XD

    Man the salt back then hahaha

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Anyone member when Ranger pets could be revived by other players?

    I member XD

    Man the salt back then hahaha

    My pet needs help.

  • Biff.5312Biff.5312 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I wonder if maybe by 'participating' it means in a state of being 'in combat'. If so, the dead would not contribute, as they are able to wp and therefor presumably not 'in combat'.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Anyone member when Ranger pets could be revived by other players?

    I member XD

    Man the salt back then hahaha

    That's why my pet chooses to use me as a meatsuit - it's tired of getting groped by random players :(

  • Healix.5819Healix.5819 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Biff.5312 said:
    I wonder if maybe by 'participating' it means in a state of being 'in combat'. If so, the dead would not contribute, as they are able to wp and therefor presumably not 'in combat'.

    Events simply scale based on the number of players within range, regardless of what they're doing or if they're alive. It wasn't always like this. Originally, events scaled based on the number of people that were actively tagging the event. The problem was, a large group could instantly kill a boss before it had a chance to scale, so they simply changed it to factor everyone within the area, which happened during season 1.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    I really hope dead corpses don't scale up events. It's already problematic enough when you get zergs of "spam 1 warriors" as it is to make the situation even more dire.

    I know it was ANet's intention to design a game where we'd be glad to bump into more players, but sometimes their lack of contribution to the event really leaves one wondering. :P

    Maybe that's why stuff like Istan is trivial with full squads, ANet didn't want "spam 1 warriors" to feel marginalized. <_<

  • DaFishBob.6518DaFishBob.6518 Member ✭✭✭

    I'd just wished fully dead people have a different icon on the field, just like they have on the mini-map.

  • IndigoSundown.5419IndigoSundown.5419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2019

    @Kal Spiro.9745 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    Events scale both up and down according to the number of players who are currently participating.
    Even a player that is not participating will scale the event up.

    These are mutually exclusive, so which is it?

    The choice of the word "participating" is confusing. The way it sounds, the actual word should be "present." Given past ANet statements, and for the purposes of the thread, present likely means "present and not defeated."

    If I were in the mood to edit, the wiki, I'd type, "Players who are present contribute to scaling the event up. If players leave, the event can scale down. It's likely that there are thresholds for both up and down scaling depending on whether the event can be done solo or is a group event (i.e., Shatterer may require larger numbers before scaling will kick in than some random escort in Queensdale)."

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Biff.5312 said:

    @Yargesh.4965 said:
    According to Anet the dead do not scale up the events.

    Does that mean the event de-scales if they start off the event alive but remain lying around once dead? I find that doubtful.

    As far as I am aware events do not scale down, they only scale up.

    Parts of the event (like levels of mobs, and all future mob spawns) do scale down. Other elements (like already spawned mob quantity, or veterancy of already spawned enemies) obviously don't.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭

    If 90 % of the people died, should you really be able to win the fight? Even if it is open world it is still a group content and if the group failed, well it failed.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cuks.8241 said:
    If 90 % of the people died, should you really be able to win the fight? Even if it is open world it is still a group content and if the group failed, well it failed.

    Most of the encounters have scaling limits. Most fights for example start to scale up only after there's more than 5 players (and consequently do not scale down below 5 players). There are however some encounters that have much higher limits. Obviously, if the number of players still alive drops below such a limit, the encounter is going to get harder and harder with every subsequent player death.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cuks.8241 said:
    If 90 % of the people died, should you really be able to win the fight? Even if it is open world it is still a group content and if the group failed, well it failed.

    Most of the encounters have scaling limits. Most fights for example start to scale up only after there's more than 5 players (and consequently do not scale down below 5 players). There are however some encounters that have much higher limits. Obviously, if the number of players still alive drops below such a limit, the encounter is going to get harder and harder with every subsequent player death.

    As it should. Legendary bosses don’t feel very legendary when 300 people drop their damage on them.

    This is going to be unpopular, but There needs to be failure to appreciate success

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cuks.8241 said:
    If 90 % of the people died, should you really be able to win the fight? Even if it is open world it is still a group content and if the group failed, well it failed.

    Most of the encounters have scaling limits. Most fights for example start to scale up only after there's more than 5 players (and consequently do not scale down below 5 players). There are however some encounters that have much higher limits. Obviously, if the number of players still alive drops below such a limit, the encounter is going to get harder and harder with every subsequent player death.

    As it should. Legendary bosses don’t feel very legendary when 300 people drop their damage on them.

    This is going to be unpopular, but There needs to be failure to appreciate success

    I can already smell a new discussion topic: should event scaling actually be meaningful against zergs?

    I bet there are people who like trivializing events with large zergs, but my most fun palawadan raids have been with a sub-15 squad, even if we don't always succeed.

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Interesting idea: If there are too many dead players (for example more than half) than alive players, the event automatically fail.

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    Currently playing: Final Fantasy 14, Dragon's Dogma

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It would surely add to the difficulty of some boss fights if you could only be rezzed within 1 minute, and could not rejoin the boss fight after one minute or teleporting.

    Some bosses could really use such a challenge. In my cases, people just bulk the damage and die because (especially with mounts) the waypoints are around the corner.

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @casualkenny.9817 said:
    What if player corpses become completely unrubbable and no longer scale up bosses' hps and cc bars after a certain time has passed?

    I like the idea, especially the second part (scaling). As for the first part (player corpses unrezzable), that should only be during fights; if the area is quiet, you still should be able to rez.^

    ^) Helpful for Druids to load up their energy, and also helpful for players who die by accident while on their way to unlock the next nearby waypoint.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Biff.5312 said:

    @Yargesh.4965 said:
    According to Anet the dead do not scale up the events.

    Does that mean the event de-scales if they start off the event alive but remain lying around once dead? I find that doubtful.

    As far as I am aware events do not scale down, they only scale up.

    Parts of the event (like levels of mobs, and all future mob spawns) do scale down. Other elements (like already spawned mob quantity, or veterancy of already spawned enemies) obviously don't.

    Boss health also scales up and down. It was quite visible with 3rd party tools like BGDM at bosses like tequatl.

  • Biff.5312Biff.5312 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:
    It would surely add to the difficulty of some boss fights if you could only be rezzed within 1 minute, and could not rejoin the boss fight after one minute or teleporting.

    Some bosses could really use such a challenge. In my cases, people just bulk the damage and die because (especially with mounts) the waypoints are around the corner.

    This sort of happens with the bandit executioner. Because of the bubble, first of all if everyone inside dies the event fails. Second, if people rez at a wp and return they are kept outside the bubble and in that sense prevented from rejoining the fight.

    It's a decent system but I don't know if all bosses should have a similar mechanic.

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Biff.5312 said:

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:
    It would surely add to the difficulty of some boss fights if you could only be rezzed within 1 minute, and could not rejoin the boss fight after one minute or teleporting.

    Some bosses could really use such a challenge. In my cases, people just bulk the damage and die because (especially with mounts) the waypoints are around the corner.

    This sort of happens with the bandit executioner. Because of the bubble, first of all if everyone inside dies the event fails. Second, if people rez at a wp and return they are kept outside the bubble and in that sense prevented from rejoining the fight.

    It's a decent system but I don't know if all bosses should have a similar mechanic.

    It needs to be properly set up, then, and only then, it would be a good system.
    As in, people need to be aware of the system, and need to be aware that their actions have consequences.
    At this point, death is absolutely pointless and redundant in the game as of now, they may as well remove the health bars.
    Every world-boss, and meta boss, has a waypoint around the corner. Every story instance boss, you can keep respawning and keep hitting the boss. Every major encounter, you can just keep running back, nibble a bit of health away, die, rinse and repeat, until you're in your underwear. But still, you can never 'fail' unless there's a timer check.
    And even then, timer's are often so lenient. Raids and fractals are the only content I know of, that will reset a boss fight if you die. The loot will become much more valuable if you can't 'corpse-run' the fights

    for example:
    the fire elemental should have fiery walls at the bridge, so if you die and waypoint, you can't get back in.
    That said, maybe it's a bad example, because it's almost impossible to die faster than the fire elemental.
    But maybe bosses like Tequatl, they unleash a cloud of miasma when they appear. If you're in the zone, you're fine, but if you try to pass through the miasma back into the battlefield, you die.

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?

  • DaFishBob.6518DaFishBob.6518 Member ✭✭✭

    @Biff.5312 said:

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:
    It would surely add to the difficulty of some boss fights if you could only be rezzed within 1 minute, and could not rejoin the boss fight after one minute or teleporting.

    Some bosses could really use such a challenge. In my cases, people just bulk the damage and die because (especially with mounts) the waypoints are around the corner.

    This sort of happens with the bandit executioner. Because of the bubble, first of all if everyone inside dies the event fails. Second, if people rez at a wp and return they are kept outside the bubble and in that sense prevented from rejoining the fight.

    It's a decent system but I don't know if all bosses should have a similar mechanic.

    It was a decent system. Then mounts came along and broke it.

  • This shouldn’t be implemented until bosses/world events with oneshot skills/mechanics or combo potential are addressed. Probably the most glaring example is Chak Gerent, who can do 9k lunges which can occasionally hit twice, 12k donuts, 13k cave ins for a boss that people don’t want cc’ed so they can ‘do more dmg’ while ppl, potentially the actual heavy hitters, are being murdered, and no one bothers to res even just downs because they’re either too lazy or it’s way too dangerous to do so anyway...

    These are world events, so we must to consider problems that can occur when having excess players in the vicinity - lag, invisible aoes and enemies, people disconnecting, etc. Therefore you get additional issues like not being able dodge in time and not seeing what you need to dodge. Imagine landing on Mat’s platform in the middle of the cone aoe (that hits for 4k per second or so) which is invisible. Or get oneshot by a minor wyvern you can’t see.

    On top of all this, WPs are progressively increasing their distance to the events, even more with the introduction of mounts. Wp’ing is a risk - you can lose rewards if you don’t get back there on time (especially if you don’t have a mount), and sometimes loading screens or sufficient lag (because excess players) is all it takes for the effort and rewards to completely vanish.

    If the scaling facts listed above are true, dead players stop scaling the event once dead and the choice of ressing is up to you. Players who died horribly cheap deaths would really appreciate it, and players who do more than just AA spam would find it touching when ppl sacrifice their 1-2k dps to restore their 10-20k dps.

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    This shouldn’t be implemented until bosses/world events with oneshot skills/mechanics or combo potential are addressed. Probably the most glaring example is Chak Gerent, who can do 9k lunges which can occasionally hit twice, 12k donuts, 13k cave ins for a boss that people don’t want cc’ed so they can ‘do more dmg’ while ppl, potentially the actual heavy hitters, are being murdered, and no one bothers to res even just downs because they’re either too lazy or it’s way too dangerous to do so anyway...

    In the gerent’s defence, the donut is quite in visible (under normal conditions).
    But once death becomes consequential, people will adjust their strategies.
    I’ve seen the same with tequatl, people needed one or two rounds to realize you can’t
    faceroll the boss anymore.

    These are world events, so we must to consider problems that can occur when having excess players in the vicinity - lag, invisible aoes and enemies, people disconnecting, etc. Therefore you get additional issues like not being able dodge in time and not seeing what you need to dodge. Imagine landing on Mat’s platform in the middle of the cone aoe (that hits for 4k per second or so) which is invisible. Or get oneshot by a minor wyvern you can’t see.

    There is a problem with load orders right now. Load order is defined by the time you appear in the map, and remains fixed. As a result, i can never see world bosses unless i target them. The game wants to load all players, and their summons first, because they were there before the boss spawned.
    So ai agree there, it’san issue in load orders that anet needs to resolve, first.

    On top of all this, WPs are progressively increasing their distance to the events, even more with the introduction of mounts. Wp’ing is a risk - you can lose rewards if you don’t get back there on time (especially if you don’t have a mount), and sometimes loading screens or sufficient lag (because excess players) is all it takes for the effort and rewards to completely vanish.

    I saw that in PoF, but subsequently in season 4 we went back to ‘waypoints around the corner’.

    If the scaling facts listed above are true, dead players stop scaling the event once dead and the choice of ressing is up to you. Players who died horribly cheap deaths would really appreciate it, and players who do more than just AA spam would find it touching when ppl sacrifice their 1-2k dps to restore their 10-20k dps.

    I find raids have great combat designs. There are few if no cheap deaths. Most deaths are failing to react to a mechanic.

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:
    I find raids have great combat designs. There are few if no cheap deaths. Most deaths are failing to react to a mechanic.

    That is only possible with small-scale fights. For example, raid type mechanics would completely murder players at Frozen Maw encounter, because there are moments you really can't see anything, boss least of all.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Zaklex.6308Zaklex.6308 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ~snip~

    On top of all this, WPs are progressively increasing their distance to the events, even more with the introduction of mounts. Wp’ing is a risk - you can lose rewards if you don’t get back there on time (especially if you don’t have a mount), and sometimes loading screens or sufficient lag (because excess players) is all it takes for the effort and rewards to completely vanish.

    ~snip~

    Technically incorrect, was you've participated in an event enough to reach the status of having participated you will still receive the rewards...and not withstanding the notice from PoF events of "You are no longer participating..." you would still get the end of event reward if it was successful. Heck I got plenty of end of event rewards for just passing through and having to kill one enemy because he decided to engage while I was heading somewhere else.

    Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!

  • It is effectively untrue that the dead do not scale up a boss, because depending on my profession, in a group of 5, I can do around 1/3 of the required cc. In a sea of corpses, matriarch's cc bar clearly does not scale back down in time. Wping may cause the scaling to update sooner. If anything, the corpses won't build up.

    But I think I was not clear enough about the purpose. People do not respawn (when boss is not likely to die in the next 30sec to 1min) because they are cheap and/or lazy. If they are forced to respawn anyway (because the game prevents them from being rezzed), then they are more likely to wp, and wait at the overlook to loot when the boss is killed.

    I am totally fine with them getting free loot for little effort, as long as they don't cause the fight to drag for 3-8 extra minutes.

    Rez meaning being rubbed back to life. I am against introducing the raid mechanic into open world casual content (where dead people can't be rezzed AND can no longer rejoin)

    Though if the scaling was more quickly updated (dead people no longer scale the cc bar), I'm also OK with the status quo.

  • According to research back in 2015, dead people still upscale events. This video shows changes in a VineWrath champion's HPs as dead people teleport to a WP. If there were no major changes in event scaling mechanics in the past 3 years it is better for everyone when dead to leave the area.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yargesh.4965 said:
    According to Anet the dead do not scale up the events.

    I have seen this referenced many times, here on the forums, in Reddit, and even the wiki. But, none of those are official sources.

    Can you cite a source, please?

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm of the exact opposite opinion: in most (not all) events, I think rewards should be removed from players who fail to attempt to revive their downed and defeated allies. And, dead players SHOULD keep the event scaled up. If people want to leave their comrades on the field when they could rally or revive them, then they should be treated as the traitors they are.

    But, I'm in the minority.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019

    People try to revive downed players its the defeated kittens that f it up for everyone since reviving one of those can get you killed.
    Defeated players should get -rewards after 5 seconds of not waypointing.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @Kal Spiro.9745 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    Events scale both up and down according to the number of players who are currently participating.
    Even a player that is not participating will scale the event up.

    These are mutually exclusive, so which is it?

    The choice of the word "participating" is confusing. The way it sounds, the actual word should be "present." Given past ANet statements, and for the purposes of the thread, present likely means "present and not defeated."

    If I were in the mood to edit, the wiki, I'd type, "Players who are present contribute to scaling the event up. If players leave, the event can scale down. It's likely that there are thresholds for both up and down scaling depending on whether the event can be done solo or is a group event (i.e., Shatterer may require larger numbers before scaling will kick in than some random escort in Queensdale)."

    For that to be true you would also have to be explicit about what your definition of scaling means. If a bunch of lv84 elite adds spawn as a result of scaling they will continue to stick around long after the people that caused the scaling are gone.

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    This is going to be unpopular, but There needs to be failure to appreciate success

    That is only true if you have any control over it.

    If I finally manage to do something after numerous failures and the success was actually through learning from the previous attempts then sure that would feel awesome.

    If on the other hand something failed because you got a bunch of people can't even follow instruction as simple as "stand over here" then no.

  • Yargesh.4965Yargesh.4965 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Yargesh.4965 said:
    According to Anet the dead do not scale up the events.

    I have seen this referenced many times, here on the forums, in Reddit, and even the wiki. But, none of those are official sources.

    Can you cite a source, please?

    The last I remember was old forums and the wailing that Silverwastes gave not as many loots because it took a couple of minutes longer to kill the bosses because of dead people. If I remember correctly it was Gaile who passed along that information, it could have been a dev though. Frankly I have never seen anything fail because of dead players and really don't care if they want to lay around rather than participate.

  • Etria.3642Etria.3642 Member ✭✭✭

    As someone who has helped new players to the game get tyrian mastery points by killing world bosses(Teq, kq, etc) please leave things the way they are. New players are deathly afraid to wp when dead in fear of not getting rewards like other games.

    And as someone who has been distracted by various things, thus causing my own death, please leave the waypoints close. I do respawn and use my mount to get back to help. I am /delighted/ that the latest map has more than 2 wp. I LOVE that if I die during a meta I can quickly get back into things. World events are casual. Inclusive. Leave them that way please and save the raid boss mechanics for raids. (Up to 16 LI, and more than 6 bosses killed. I'm /getting/ there. But I appreciate being able to play casually during the world bosses. Between raids, fractals, and wvw where I have to focus, it's lovely to have somewhere more relaxing to enjoy the game.

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