Ban ArcDPS and any third party program

[Applejuice.4083]

@tinyreborn.1938 said:That moment when OP post ONCE and never reply again... xDWhile ppl wage war saying the same thing over and over... Troll may be?

I'm on a deployment right now and work 14-16 hour days, I don't have time to always come on here and check. I didn't expect this many posts. So how exactly does that make me a troll? Do you call troll on everything you see?

[Nephalem.8921]

This has to be a troll post. I've never seen any lvl 80 getting kicked out of a dungeon for low dps after HoT launch. And I've seen a lot <1k dps players.1-2 Meta Dps are usually enough to burst any dungeon boss in less than 15sec.3 and more and you won't even get your full burst out.

@Fantasy.5321 said:

@"Mea.5491" said:this is not offtopic, dps meters exist because of the meta obsession, these things are related.

Yup, meta and dps meters are closely related and they are a problem. What I hate is when people see an underperforming, struggling player in the group. What do they do? Kick them out. Why don't you tell them: "You're doing it wrong, do you need help with your gear or build?" This is what the priority SHOULD be in massively multiplayer games, not speedclearing content. Helping each other is too mainstream, people only care about Gold/hour.

Have you tried doing that? I did that a few times and got yelled at, insulted and blocked for being a toxic elitist mentioning their performance.Most of the time they just ignore you until you start to kick them. Also why do you have to tell people how to play in an experienced t4 cm group for example. I saw warriors join with random armour getting outdamaged by the chrono on every boss.Now i just simply blame them in chat or kick directly.How do you want to help an underperforming thief? Tell them to aa harder? People are not getting kicked for doing like 20% below benchmark. They are kicked for doing 50% of it and less. Something you should achieve with just aa.So they join your experienced only group ignoring the lfg. Ignored all class guides or raid guides before or didn't even bother searching half a minute for one and you really believe that such players will listen to you?Try to do it. I'm done with it. Players who want to improve join training runs and they will listen most of the time. The other ones don't even try to improve normally. And I've seen ArcDps saving DH's and necros multiple times now because the Weaver/thieves were the ones to blame. Close to impossible to spot without a damage meter.

Don't want to go back to old dungeon days. Had to write stuff like Sword + Frost spirit as ranger almost instantly or i would get kicked just because i joined as ranger.And even then some players still kicked you before you were even able to load into the dungeon.

[kharmin.7683]

Why is this a new thread? This could have been added to the current one?

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Fantasy.5321 said:

@"Mea.5491" said:this is not offtopic, dps meters exist because of the meta obsession, these things are related.

Yup, meta and dps meters are closely related and they are a problem. What I hate is when people see an underperforming, struggling player in the group. What do they do? Kick them out. Why don't you tell them: "You're doing it wrong, do you need help with your gear or build?" This is what the priority SHOULD be in massively multiplayer games, not speedclearing content. Helping each other is too mainstream, people only care about Gold/hour.

Should be? OK, yeah, we'd have a better world if all people were more about helping others out. Last time I looked, we don't live there.

However, a lot of gamers have limited time to play. Helping others takes time. How much of a person's game-related free time should be devoted -- on an everyday basis -- to helping players who are not playing efficiently? Why everyday basis? If not, then what happens when someone joins her/his group on an "off day" and inevitably "needs help." Is a player who knows what s/he is doing required to be selfless all the time? Why is her/his time less valuable than that of the person who "needs help?"

Then there's the player who does not want help. He wants to play a poor-performing build that is not what the group is looking for. Why is the onus on the players he joins to accept him, and not on him to find people who don't care what he plays?

These are not simple issues. There are two sides to every story. "Play the game the way you want to" applies to everyone, the people who don't care about their performance and those who do. Why does like not play with like?

I'll tell you why. These two unpleasant realities are the elephants in the room every time the subject of exclusion (whether DPS meter-related or not) comes up.

Time: people who join LFG groups feel entitled to get quickly through whatever instanced content they want to do. This applies to both players who know what they're doing and players who don't. Finding players who think like you do takes time. If a specific player chose not to spend time learning how to play as groups expect, he's not going to want to take time to find other like-minded players.

Success: how likely are five (or ten) random players, none of whom know their builds, or how to play well in a group, to succeed at instanced group content?

The above is largely why players on both sides of the issue demonize players on the other side. Efficiency players are labelled as toxic and elitist, and players who don't care about efficiency are labelled as lazy and leeching. Let's be clear about one thing, though. The blame-slinging is coming from both sides.

[Applejuice.4083]

ArcDPS is the problem, it is a third party program that breeds toxicity among you elitist individuals. Attacking players who do 1k damage difference from what is meta. I have seen people who use this program go as far as to issue out IRL death threats or making snarky comments like " My grandma can out dps this kid" etc, etc. I have seen people who get DC'd from a raid because of ArcDps then leech the boss at the end by coming back.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

@"Applejuice.4083" said:ArcDPS is the problem, it is a third party program that breeds toxicity among you elitist individuals. Attacking players who do 1k damage difference from what is meta. I have seen people who use this program go as far as to issue out IRL death threats or making snarky comments like " My grandma can out dps this kid" etc, etc. I have seen people who get DC'd from a raid because of ArcDps then leech the boss at the end by coming back.

You can't seriously argue that Arc DPS is the cause of such behaviour, that's on the individuals themselves. Anti social players will remain anti social no matter what, party kicks, death threats and accusations of poor performance will not go away just because you take the proverbial sledge hammer to the nail.

[TexZero.7910]

@"Applejuice.4083" said:ArcDPS is the problem, it is a third party program that breeds toxicity among you elitist individuals. Attacking players who do 1k damage difference from what is meta. I have seen people who use this program go as far as to issue out IRL death threats or making snarky comments like " My grandma can out dps this kid" etc, etc. I have seen people who get DC'd from a raid because of ArcDps then leech the boss at the end by coming back.

Toxicity will exist with or without the tool.It's happened in the past without it and it's happening now with it ?

What's the only commonality ? People. Lets delete people instead!

[Sylvari.2953]

@maddoctor.2738 said:I already answered above why dps meters have nothing to do with the meta, but yet you continue claiming that they are related.

Um, because that wasn't a reply to YOUR post. And I respect and accept your opinion but I still disagree. :) That's okay, people don't have to agree on everything. Don't worry, I won't repeat myself. Happy Wintersday! <3

[Turin.6921]

@gateless gate.8406 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:Actually they do when it's sensible to do so. Again, if you join as DPS and the druid does more dps than you, there is no other stat that can save you anymore.

Also, does Arc have the capability to show total damage over the fight or just strictly damage per second? Additionally, does it record cause of death for party members?

It can show damage over time total for both each person and the whole squads, times when you get downed and there is an expansion that show who and how many times players fail the most important mechanics per boss.

[Turin.6921]

@"Applejuice.4083" said:ArcDPS is the problem, it is a third party program that breeds toxicity among you elitist individuals. Attacking players who do 1k damage difference from what is meta. I have seen people who use this program go as far as to issue out IRL death threats or making snarky comments like " My grandma can out dps this kid" etc, etc. I have seen people who get DC'd from a raid because of ArcDps then leech the boss at the end by coming back.

What make you think this has not happen by people without DPS meters? I guessed you missed the speed running dungeon scene at launch or the original fractals near level 50. I am not sure why you seem to have a crusade against 3rd party programs when people have always behaved this way meter or not.

[Applejuice.4083]

@Turin.6921 said:

@"Applejuice.4083" said:ArcDPS is the problem, it is a third party program that breeds toxicity among you elitist individuals. Attacking players who do 1k damage difference from what is meta. I have seen people who use this program go as far as to issue out IRL death threats or making snarky comments like " My grandma can out dps this kid" etc, etc. I have seen people who get DC'd from a raid because of ArcDps then leech the boss at the end by coming back.

What make you think this has not happen by people without DPS meters? I guessed you missed the speed running dungeon scene at launch or the original fractals near level 50.

No I was there during the "speed running dungeon scene" when people would go on another lfg site pretty much specifically catered to CoF Path 1, zerk warrior and 1 zerk mesmer. I remember using greatsword 5 skilll as a mesmer to push boss into a corner while everyone kills it in 1 time skip or whatever the skill is called to make things go fast.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

@Turin.6921 said:

@"Applejuice.4083" said:ArcDPS is the problem, it is a third party program that breeds toxicity among you elitist individuals. Attacking players who do 1k damage difference from what is meta. I have seen people who use this program go as far as to issue out IRL death threats or making snarky comments like " My grandma can out dps this kid" etc, etc. I have seen people who get DC'd from a raid because of ArcDps then leech the boss at the end by coming back.

What make you think this has not happen by people without DPS meters? I guessed you missed the speed running dungeon scene at launch or the original fractals near level 50.

Speed running dungeons was exceptionally unforgiving, I recall the price of entry back then being achievement points, since DPS metres didn't exist. Again, don't blame the tool, which is very much designed to help players. Sometimes you just have to realise that people can be jerks, you can't easily stop that and blanket banning Arc DPS certainly won't help.

[Turin.6921]

@Applejuice.4083 said:

@Turin.6921 said:

@Applejuice.4083 said:ArcDPS is the problem, it is a third party program that breeds toxicity among you elitist individuals. Attacking players who do 1k damage difference from what is meta. I have seen people who use this program go as far as to issue out IRL death threats or making snarky comments like " My grandma can out dps this kid" etc, etc. I have seen people who get DC'd from a raid because of ArcDps then leech the boss at the end by coming back.

What make you think this has not happen by people without DPS meters? I guessed you missed the speed running dungeon scene at launch or the original fractals near level 50.

No I was there during the "speed running dungeon scene" when people would go on another lfg site pretty much specifically catered to CoF Path 1, zerk warrior and 1 zerk mesmer. I remember using greatsword 5 skilll as a mesmer to push boss into a corner while everyone kills it in 1 time skip or whatever the skill is called to make things go fast.

And you have never seen ppl getting kicked in that scene? With completely arbitrary reasons? Because if you did not you were really lucky. Back in the days of the party leader people would just kill a run just because they thought one player did not play well enough. And have you ever tried to find a dungeon group as a ranger back then? And that annoying AP requirement.

Some people will always be cheeky. The best you can do is to at least forced them to justify themselves based on sth objective. That is what the meters provide. The idea that things will be better without a meter is a delusion.

[rabenpriester.7129]

@InvaGir.9158 said:YES DUDE IT DOES MAKE ME A VICTIM!

If that already made you a victim, I'd go so far and call 9 people victims of your DPS.

@"Fantasy.5321" said:Why don't you tell them: "You're doing it wrong, do you need help with your gear or build?" This is what the priority SHOULD be in massively multiplayer games

The entitlement, wow.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:

@"Applejuice.4083" said:ArcDPS is the problem, it is a third party program that breeds toxicity among you elitist individuals. Attacking players who do 1k damage difference from what is meta. I have seen people who use this program go as far as to issue out IRL death threats or making snarky comments like " My grandma can out dps this kid" etc, etc. I have seen people who get DC'd from a raid because of ArcDps then leech the boss at the end by coming back.

You can't seriously argue that Arc DPS is the cause of such behaviour, that's on the individuals themselves. Anti social players will remain anti social no matter what, party kicks, death threats and accusations of poor performance will not go away just because you take the proverbial sledge hammer to the nail.

If anti social players remain anti social players anyway, why did and does arenanet go through so much (re)design in order to make as little conflict as possible?

Clearly the design of the game or allowance of third party apps can make a difference between more toxic behavior and less toxic behavior.

This bad people will be bad argument is very flawed.

Just so you dont get confused, it doesnt mean a DPS meter in general is bad, or should be banned. It just means it does have an influence, unless you assume that all people are stoic, and that some tools are better at making a cooperative environment that others, even if they have the same or similar functions.

Also, while no design will be completely erasing toxic behavior (hell some people are toxic in open world events) it doesnt mean it can't be improved.

For a discussion on that to happen we would need to be able to let go of polarising arguments, which.. well is kind of boring I guess.

[Icewolf.1076]

@"Applejuice.4083" said:ArcDPS is the problem, it is a third party program that breeds toxicity among you elitist individuals. Attacking players who do 1k damage difference from what is meta. I have seen people who use this program go as far as to issue out IRL death threats or making snarky comments like " My grandma can out dps this kid" etc, etc. I have seen people who get DC'd from a raid because of ArcDps then leech the boss at the end by coming back.

Toxic players will be toxic, idiots will be idiots and players in games behaves like shit regardless of arc dos or not. Blaming shitty behavior on arc is the most stupid thing I have heard all year. That says a lot when u hear all that bs coming from trump.Ppl have been behaving the same way since the start of online gaming and will not change

[maddoctor.2738]

@Fantasy.5321 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:Instead of getting what I asked for, an experienced player, I should spend my time teaching this random nobody that showed zero respect towards me and my team?

No. I would

never

join a group if I know I'm not what they are looking for, do people actually do that?

Unfortunately they do it all the time and that's the major issue. I'm part of a "fresh" Raid team and we had to use the LFG to fill some spots, and getting people from the LFG is a nightmare. I hope in 2019 we'll never have to use the LFG tool ever again, and have a full static team, but life happens and at time someone might need to skip and in that case the rest of the team will have to reopen it. The problem is, many players feel entitled to join any team they wish, they use chat codes to ping their LI or KP, they lie about being experienced, they intentionally die close to the start with a "lol sorry" then go afk or any combination of the above. A DPS meter can help filter out the unwanted but unfortunately this comes after they've wasted your time, nothing prevents them from joining anyway.

And since the team is fresh, meaning lots of players are new to Raids, ArcDPS has been invaluable to everyone, as a tool for personal improvement and overall team improvement. Identifying issues, then fixing them, is what the tool can certainly do.

So banning DPS meters is out of the question because they provide some really essential functionality.

PS: I've never used a DPS meter myself, I don't even have ArcDPS installed nor know how to install it. The meter needs to be run by a single member of the squad, then they compile the logs and post them for everyone to see and study.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:

@"Applejuice.4083" said:ArcDPS is the problem, it is a third party program that breeds toxicity among you elitist individuals. Attacking players who do 1k damage difference from what is meta. I have seen people who use this program go as far as to issue out IRL death threats or making snarky comments like " My grandma can out dps this kid" etc, etc. I have seen people who get DC'd from a raid because of ArcDps then leech the boss at the end by coming back.

You can't seriously argue that Arc DPS is the cause of such behaviour, that's on the individuals themselves. Anti social players will remain anti social no matter what, party kicks, death threats and accusations of poor performance will not go away just because you take the proverbial sledge hammer to the nail.

If anti social players remain anti social players anyway, why did and does arenanet go through so much (re)design in order to make as little conflict as possible?

Clearly the design of the game or allowance of third party apps can make a difference between more toxic behavior and less toxic behavior.

This bad people will be bad argument is very flawed.

Just so you dont get confused, it doesnt mean a DPS meter in general is bad, or should be banned. It just means it does have an influence, unless you assume that all people are stoic, and that some tools are better at making a cooperative environment that others, even if they have the same or similar functions.

Also, while no design will be completely erasing toxic behavior (hell some people are toxic in open world events) it doesnt mean it can't be improved.

For a discussion on that to happen we would need to be able to let go of polarising arguments, which.. well is kind of boring I guess.

I suppose the question is whether or not removing Arc DPS as a means of moderating poor behaviour is a net positive for the game. In general, I am of the opinion that restricting information as a means to control behaviour is undesireable.

One compromise would be building DPS metres into the game, and then allowing a party leader to enable them for all players (if they wish to see them) or to disable them entirely. Players would be able to see some sort of DPS metre icon next to a party that has them turned on, giving them the opportunity to join or not join based on their preferences.

[Rod.6581]

No!/15 chars

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@Zin Dau.1749 said:challenging instance content like dungeons, raids breed toxic people. DPS meter has nothing to do with that.

I'm confused... only Arah is half hard, and with elite specs you can trash you way thru that too...

[Astralporing.1957]

@InvaGir.9158 said:I understand why you wouldn't believe this story, And why would someone harass me out of nowhere?!Maybe because I was sitting on W5 chair at the time maybe it gave him a reason to inspect my account and interrogate me...And yes I did purchase it for being lazy to do it enough times to get it from the raid itself.While there are/were hacks to check someone's inventory, there's no way at all to check your bank account using third party programs or hacks. The client simply does not have that info unless you're actually looking inside your bank, and even then it is in your client only, not accessible to others. The only way to do so would be through API, but that would require you to give someone your api key (so, basically, allow them to see that information).So, i seriously doubt your story,

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@"Applejuice.4083" said:ArcDPS is the problem, it is a third party program that breeds toxicity among you elitist individuals. Attacking players who do 1k damage difference from what is meta. I have seen people who use this program go as far as to issue out IRL death threats or making snarky comments like " My grandma can out dps this kid" etc, etc. I have seen people who get DC'd from a raid because of ArcDps then leech the boss at the end by coming back.

I can agree arcdps is a hack and tos dont say its ok only 1 dev said wich i dont see as anet allows it for you know tos would said it was ok. It does intreduce toxic behavior for who are they to judge my dps low numbers isnt enough there. But while arc increased toxic behavior it did not put it into game

[DoNotBelieveMe.3029]

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:See also:

• DPS Meters and party toxicity...
• DPS meter policy needs to be revised
• An in game DPS meter from Anet
• Flag DPS-Meter user in the game
• A-Net please get rid of the DPS meters.
• In-House DPS Meter
• DPS Meter
• Anet.. can you make a DPS meter?
• DPS shamingI kinda hope this post that I quoted ends up as a sticky or something so people realize how many threads there are by now. Pretty sure the developers have had enough feedback from all these existing threads. If they intend to change stuff regarding this, the action would either already be in the process of being executed, or at least on the agenda in-house. No amount of extra moaning at this stage will change anything. We don't need more threads every time some player gets slighted in game and ends up crying to the forums. The dozens of threads in raid and fractals about these are quite enough, beating the dead horse is not productive. It has long since gone past the stage of being a controversial topic; each side is so firmly cemented in its views, there is simply no getting across to the other side. It all invariably ends up as "other players are so selfish". That is the one thing both sides seem to agree on. As I read on another dps meter thread recently, one of the posters jokingly commented that they should delete people instead. Ironically that is the best course of action, block people so you don't meet them in instanced pve content again when you pug. This in-game feature is still not working correctly in its entirety since I think people you have blocked can still join on you, but it is better than nothing. At TS: If you need an outlet for your rage, the lion arch crowd might be more accommodating but please spare the forum people from having to deal with the same repeating topic over and over again.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

We do not need DPS meters.

What we need is a combat breakdown at the end of content upon success or wipe. Something like the one that appears at the end of PvP matches, but way more detailed, and only available upon success or defeat.

People should not get used to play looking and numbers. They should focus only on the fight, wait until things end, then check what they do right or wrong in the breakdown, and adjust accordingly.

If such a thing is ever added to the game, the training golems should also get the breakdown panel, and way more options, like dummy ally golems with selectable 25, 50 and 75% HP, to to check healing builds.

The combat log is not enough, and DPS meters that can generate a combat breakdown are external tools. So none of them cut it.

[Ayakaru.6583]

ArcDPS breeds toxicityHammers breed murderersSpoons breed obesity

I'm sorry, but how naive do you have to be to believe the people weren't already toxic before ArcDPS came out.Tools don't breed toxicity.Toxicity abuses tools.