Is gw2 going down the path of heavy microtransactions

[Obtena.7952]

@Randulf.7614 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:It was always microtransaction heavy ... that's GW2's business model.

Exactly and Istan was a mess. Couldn’t even see what was going on so if nerfing it means a better playing experience then fantastic.

There is zero link between the nerf and the business model though

OH I agree, zones for farming have zero relation to game revenue ... though some people don't understand that.

[Cyninja.2954]

@MoriMoriMori.5349 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:I repeat myself, WoW, ESO , FFIX etc. are P2W by your definition.

If they allow you to access competitive content where you'll be at mechanical disadvantage comparing to those who paid, they are. You don't need to prove me it on per case basis :) This in definition of the term - "pay to win".

@"Raknar.4735" said:FFIX adds news classes and a raised lvl-cap.

It's not about what they add, but about whether or not you'll be at disadvantage while doing competitive content. As you can guess, there are tons of ways how you can add new classes and rise levelcap

without

giving mechanical disadvantage to those who don't have access to them. Making them different, but not that more powerful, as was mentioned already, or scaling everyone down somehow to "a common denominator" - to name few. I haven't played neither WoW, nor FF, so no idea whether the issue exists there.

That has to be the most stupid reasoning ever. So if GW2 prohibited players from accessing endgame content it would move from your definition of pay-to-win to not pay-to-win? That is idiotic and plain incorrect.

Pay-to-win was explained by Illconceived Was Na.9781 quite correctly. There are multiple ways to embed pay-to-win in games:

• offering advantages which can only be gained via real money purchase
• making acquisition of benefits so tedious that not paying for them with real money becomes near impossible
• creating incentives which push people to spend money which otherwise they would not have spent to keep their attained power level

Expansions are tricky since most MMOs deal with them in a very direct way: don't get the expansion and you are barred from endgame content. GW2 is unique in this regard in that they do not force people to purchase expansions. While technically fitting the definition of pay-to-win, this is misleading since technically the game as a whole moved on to expansion+x status while players without the expansion are receiving a leniency to still access content. Suffice to say, calling something pay-to-win because you are ALLOWED access instead of getting barred from the content is quite unfair. Maybe you are right though, maybe for all future content people should not be allowed access to endgame maps and content UNLESS they own all expansions. We wouldn't want people to be unhappy with having to play a pay-to-win game now would we?

@MoriMoriMori.5349 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:How is "not getting somewhere" not pay to win by your definition?

Because you won't be able to participate in the game regardless of whether you want it or not. Not being able to play the game is not equivalent to not being able to win, like not being able to work some job at all isn't equivalent to working the job without being paid, as your manager takes your salary - the last case is the real issue, as you are exploited to benefit someone else.

Pay-to-win has more to do with inequality in opportunity or advantages which can not be acquired without paying or within in-game means.

Actually in GW2s case you are exploiting the company by not funding their development and continued support of the game. Even at the small fraction of a cost of an expansion ever 2+ years. In this situation other players are covering for your exploitation and not funding.

[Kanok.3027]

@"MoriMoriMori.5349" said:Also, it makes me crack each time I see people talking kitten about their fears of pay to win coming to GW2, when it's literally here for years - like, almost every e-spec only available from paid expansions is way, way better than core profession - and I rarely hear somebody complaining about this, for some reason.

You make it seem like the moment you buy an expansion and have access to those elite specs, you automatically win. Core player who has the skill from playing the game for years versus a fresh player with all elite specs available to them. Who is going to win? On top of this, since I know you'll try to defeat my point by comparing two of the same player, but one with and without the expansions, you do realize they also still work on balance. Yes, there is a power creep with elite specs which even they themselves realize is a problem, but they are trying, keyword there, to rectify that. If they didn't and left well enough alone and made elites even more powerful without any care or thought for core, then you'd have a valid point, but you don't.

Call it "pay 2 win" all you want, but that won't make it any less false. What's true pay 2 win?

Items in the store that can be used in any game mode that will give you more stats above what you can get in-game, upgradeable armor that will have improved stats even over legendary that you must pay to enchant, items that will help you escape easier no matter what class you're on, etc. Pay 2 win, by its very definition, is where you must continuously buy the shop currency, in this case gems, to stay relevant in ANY game mode, including PvE. Before you start the argument about the meta, content can be completed without meta builds. Whether you want to or not is not the point.

As to the OP's assertion, no. It's not going pay 2 win...yet. I know NCSoft pretty well as well, but I guess only time will tell. So far, for the immediate future, we're okay. In the future, however, that remains to be seen, especially after the merger.

[Gehenna.3625]

@MoriMoriMori.5349 said:Not getting somewhere is not pay to win. You simply won't be able to participate in game this way. Getting somewhere and finding yourself at mechanical disadvantage comparing to those who paid - is pay to win. You again seem to try to juggle with words to justify your point.

No, not every game where you have to buy something is like that. Some games may completely exclude competition part, others simply won't let you access certain parts of it where you could find such competition, and some games won't build their paid classes on purpose so much stronger than base classes, simply providing you different experiences while playing them, without significant mechanical advantage.

As GW2 allows you to go into PvP (as owner of the core game, without expacs; not sure about free to play accounts), yet won't give you access to strongest classes played by those who paid, it's pay to win, by definition.

People really need to stop making normal game expansions as part of the pay 2 win definition. That's not what's meant with pay 2 win and people only do this so justify being a total cheap skate. Twenty-thirty bucks every couple of years for a significant content expansion is just not what pay 2 win is about.

[Astralporing.1957]

@MoriMoriMori.5349 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:Pay-to-win refers to the predatory practice of making it impossible to complete..it almost seems like you rig the meaning of the word the way which would help to prove your point. Pay to win doesn't refer only to cases when win is simply impossible without investing real cash, but to all cases when doing so can grant you more

mechanical

advantage in a given individual encounter. And almost any e-spec does give you such advantage being way better than core professions (sometimes times better in terms of dps and sustain).It's the second part (about microtransactions) that is important here. Pay to win as a term for example never applies to expacs in games where each new expac gives you increased level cap and higher ilevel gear, even though both those things give tremendous advantage. Why? Because buying an expac is not a microtransaction.

[Skotlex.7580]

@MisterDapper.5984 said:It seems like NCsoft/Anet is just going to cater to people with real world money and credit cards.

actually, nerfing farms will only make buying gems harder during the adaptation period. The gold/gem exchange is affected by trading volume, so if gold becomes harder to acquire, players will trade less, and as such the conversion rate will start diminishing while the flow of gems to gold is steady, until a new equilibrium point is reached.

Yes, there will be some impatient players who will just buy gems with cash, but I doubt this is the main reason such nerfs happen.

While all the farmers and people who make gen 1 legendaries are just going to leave the game. In turn that'll have a significant impact on the economy.In my opinion, legendaries should be extremely hard to acquire, it's what give it its status. Yet, in every meta I partake in I notice many players wielding their set. I'd say that profitable farms have impacted so much the economy that legendaries are now affordable for significantly more people, thus depriving them of they status symbol.

[Sarpan.9074]

Are people really complaining about not having components of expansion packs unless they buy the expansion pack?

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

GW2 can't really go full P2W because there is nothing to win. It is a theme park MMO with some competitive PVP on the side but it was never the focus. Expansions generally powercreep previous builds but that's to be expected and in my opinion is not P2W.

That said the true endgame for a considerable section of playerbase is "fashion wars" and I can see them going full "cash store mode" with that. The amount of new gear we are getting in game compared to the gem store is already pitiful but I can see it getting worse. Same applies for the grind because that incentivizes "Pay2Skip" monetization which is a very popular method in theme park MMOs.

[Genuinetheo.6591]

The way everybody talked about Istan, there was no need to farm Silverwastes. It was the powerhouse of farming, and I'm sure people made quite the profit off of it initially. Saturated the markets, fluctuating the prices... you get the idea

I assume the nerfs to Istan were to keep it from getting out of hand. Even with the Silverwastes farm you aren't really making considerable amounts of gold without doing so for hours. That's if you don't mind driving yourself crazy.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

We never had one permanent farming method in GW2. The strategies and places have changed over the years, a lot. The first farm I remember was COF 1 grinding for hours. Back then the path always gave the same loot, no matter if you ran it for the 1st or the 25th time. It was the fastest of them all and gave the best amount of gold. People who did not want to die of monotony did more dungeon paths, but if you wanted fast gold back then, COF 1 was your home.

The maize-balm farm was a special kind, which remained for an extended time period. Tarir Multiloot was by far the best pre-pof organized farming method we had. It was nerfed heavily and the doomcryers kept complaining for weeks that it "will ruin the economy permanently." Especially the prices for Globs would skyrocket within days. Did not happen. The opposite happened. And with the introduction of Istan the prices broke through the basement-floor instead.

SW has always been the anchor of stability and the refuge of the farmers. It was a lot of times adjusted, but never really nerfed. It is accessible for all players, no matter what expansion is owned. Even core and F2P can access it to make money.

So it is more likely that we are about to find yet another farm in the near future. Probably even more lucrative than Istan. It is hard to believe that, but on the other hand we never expected that there would be anything more efficient than Tarir Multiloot.

Farming is part of the game, although we started with the promise of "no grinding." You cannot really skip it in an MMORPG. So there will always be a method, which is worthwhile.

Also keep in mind that we are not subscription based, so changing the system into P2Win would definitely cause a large chunk of the community to get out. In the current situation, the time of reorganization and rebuilding, that would be highly counterproductive. The game is still in a good state, has nice reviews and makes good scores on MMORPG platforms, which is really nice for a game that "old." The playerbase is active and loyal. They do not want to screw that up.

I understand that the current situation does not look that good. A lot of people are nervous about what will change now and later. There is a lot of insecurity. But expecting a massive conspiracy behind every patch will only make you jittery and scared. Changes and balances, fixes and patches have always existed. When one door closes, another opens. Just have some patience.

[DiabolicalHamSandwich.8756]

@MisterDapper.5984 said:

@"Alimar.8760" said:This is an interesting worry so i'd like to take the time to respond.

1. Istan has been nerfed so many times it's kinda sad yes (And almost a joke.) but I don't think it negates the farm entirely.
2. Silverwastes was nerfed similarly when it used to be the mainsteam farm. So silverwastes being nerfed is probably unlikely considering the most recent nerf it recieved was a few years ago.

Personally I don't think this will affect their gemstore philosophy. While I can't be 100% sure because of the recent financial issues, they never catered to people with money since the launch and I don't think the reduction of a farm is going to cause them to suddenly shift directions. There was a brief time in which they sold boosters for gems during the launch of the game which I personally disagreed with. But to my knowledge plenty of players also thought this was toeing the line of pay-to-win and they quickly removed those boosters in lieu of acquiring them through game play and leveling up.

The game existed before those farms were a thing, and there will always be the "next best" or "highest return rate." farm. Just because Istan is nerfed, doesn't necessarily mean the the whole of the game isn't worth playing. If anything the reduction of a farm will be a boon to the gemstore because those that relied on the gold income to buy gems because it was faster and easier than spending money will return to paying cash for gems.

Why would the farmers that make legendaries leave the game? Legendary flipping has been around since the beginning of the game and likely will continue.

My opinion is that, the small subsection of players that both buy gems with gold and real currency is in fact small. Most people who buy gems will buy gems, and most people who buy gems with gold will find other ways of paying for the gems with in game currency.

My ultimate advice is that you should give this time. Concern about the future is great because it means there are people that care, but it is still speculation. The reduction of a farm could potentially be a boon or a disadvantage. It did reduce the price of many materials and help people afford to craft or make high end legendaries, but also it did reduce the return rate of casual players salvaging and doing events. (I for one saved up many ectos from when they were 40s a piece and lost a significant chunk when Auric Basin Meta Map Farming was a thing.) Also removing one farm wont negate the current other farms out there, and Istan the way it Is, i'm sure people have found a way to use the new change to the best of their abilities.

TL,DR: The change of a farm likely will not affect gemstore. Those who buy gems with money don't always overlap heavily with those that farm and buy gems with gold. The status quo will likely remain the same or actually increase in gem sales with real world currency. This isn't a guarantee, and the best way to assuage that concern is exactly what you're doing. Posting on the forums, getting opinions, and hopefully someone at Anet will see this and maybe respond in kind.

I hope this helps.

Thank you for your response. I don't think the game is going towards P2W, but I've seen it too many times in other games and it worries me. NCsoft is a Korean company and they love these P2W/Heavy microtransaction game styles. I know the parent company isn't the same as Anet, but they're still influential.

Istan farm is all I've known since restarting a few months ago. Initially I left the game after launch a month later. Since there wasn't really end game to be had. I do agree Istan needed some nerfs, but they gutted it.

Like you said I'll have to give it some time. I can still efficiently generate large quantities of gold.

NCSoft can't do diddly to this game. At least not easily, and not without a decently sized risk to killing it in the process. They would have to gut/alter this game to a rather large degree, to do anything worth a squirt. I mean, I suppose they could slowly change some stuff. Shoehorn more things in the shop instead of putting anything in game. But the key thing they would need to do, to make this game P2W, can't be hidden. A gear treadmill.

Also really? you farmed all of one place, it gets the long time coming nerf hammer. Then you think the sky is falling? Bruh.

[Trise.2865]

I would point out that, though not mutually exclusive, "heavy microtransactions" and "pay to win" are two very different things. Guild Wars 2 has always been designed with microtransactions in mind (to its detriment, imho, but that's another topic entirely). They have also always been extremely wary of selling power and progression; struggling mightily to NOT become "pay to win".

[jediwolf.8724]

All good farms eventually get nerfed. It happen in Guild Wars 1 and it happens in Guild Wars 2.The next best farm is probably just around the corner.Arenanet has never had any P2W, and I don't believe they ever will.

[ArmoredVehicle.2849]

I for one don't (never actually) farm Istan, and haven't been to silverwastes in a while and yet I'm not poor, daily fractals is a good thing to do and takes little effort these days, then there's the daily another 2g which can be done in literally 10-15mins depending on what's required. All that without including the materials you get as a drop or salvage.

When I put some effort, I make roughly about 40g per day in just a few hours, it may not be stellar but it get things done and I have a few legendaries laying around too.

I think ANet knows far too well that making the game P2W might spell doom, meanwhile with black lion skins they can make a profit without giving some players an advantage.

[Hesione.9412]

This thread is all wrong. The person who dies with the most minis wins! That is the Anet super duper hidden achievement.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@MoriMoriMori.5349 said:snips

youre wrong cuz you can win on core specs, at least in pvp and wvw.

[Garkus.2183]

bleh,ptw my rats backside.if i want gold i just buy a bunch of bl keys...wait..

[Obtena.7952]

@Sarpan.9074 said:Are people really complaining about not having components of expansion packs unless they buy the expansion pack?

It's worse ... people in other threads are complaining they didn't get the free content Anet was thinking about implementing ... or complaining they got it, but now how they wanted it. Yup, we got some special people out there.

I have to say though ... if Anet wasn't going down the path of microtransactions in the first place, where does the OP think it gets all it's revenues?

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sarpan.9074 said:Are people really complaining about not having components of expansion packs unless they buy the expansion pack?

It's worse ... people in other threads are complaining they didn't get the free content Anet was thinking about implementing ... or complaining they got it, but now how they wanted it. Yup, we got some special people out there.

I have to say though ... if Anet wasn't going down the path of microtransactions in the first place, where does the OP think it gets all it's revenues?

People seem to forget GW2 was a B2P game, shipping at full AAA box price, with its first expansion also at full game price and PoF at a reduced one. Of course microtransactions are a big part of its business model but it's all about finding the right balance. In my opinion they had it right during the first few years then steered heavily towards the gem store in later.

[PeerlessArch.6547]

Nothing in the Gem Store is even remotely required to "win" in this game. Convenience, QOL items, and cosmetic items do not constitute any type of P2W model.

Therefore, no, this game is not going down any path remotely related to "P2W."

[mauried.5608]

What does the W in P2W even mean?How can you win an MMO?What is being won?

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@mauried.5608 said:What does the W in P2W even mean?How can you win an MMO?What is being won?

The term as used originally referred to items sold for cash that allowed players to easily beat other players in competitive play -- and that were either unavailable in play or locked behind ridiculous grinds by the standards of grind games (as opposed to what people complain about here). Win refers to beating others in PvP fights. Nowadays, people are using the term because of the stigma attached to it -- not because doing so is consistent with what the term was coined to mean.

[Amaranthe.3578]

GW2 already has that but cant really be p2w because of the lack of a vertical progression system

[Zaxares.5419]

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

The term as used originally referred to items sold for cash that allowed players to easily beat other players in competitive play -- and that were either unavailable in play or locked behind ridiculous grinds by the standards of grind games (as opposed to what people complain about here). Win refers to beating others in PvP fights. Nowadays, people are using the term because of the stigma attached to it -- not because doing so is consistent with what the term was coined to mean.

In GW2 that typically also extends to rare skins (aka "Fashion Wars"). Remember the uproar when the Flamekissed Light armor was basically the T3 Human Cultural armor, but with flames on it? At the time, T3 Cultural armor was THE most expensive armor in the game, and the fashion warriors were outraged that "casuals" could just pony up gems and get a fancier version of the "best" armor in the game with no effort at all on their part. Likewise, if ANet started selling the PvE Legendary raid armor skins on the gemstore, I can guarantee that you'd see a massive outcry with calls of "P2W!!!!" everywhere.

[battledrone.8315]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:It was always microtransaction heavy ... that's GW2's business model.

Exactly and Istan was a mess. Couldn’t even see what was going on so if nerfing it means a better playing experience then fantastic.

There is zero link between the nerf and the business model though

OH I agree, zones for farming have zero relation to game revenue ... though some people don't understand that.

yea, you totally cant convert the gold to premium currency, and use it on cashshop itemsthe idea is ludicrous