Skyscale quality of life is one thing

[The Boz.2038]

3 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Welcome to how it looked to everyone before mounts got introduced. Map coordination used to be huge part of VB requirement to hit T4.

  "Everyone struggles, but with cooperation, you can do it" != "Feel lost while everyone else races past you and completes bosses before you can get any participation in"

2 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Tell that to all the people that have done it befor any mount was introduced

Before the mount was introduced, there were no people on mounts, instantly flying to the boss and DPSing it down in ten seconds. And there were no people on mounts, taking the bomb, and dropping it ahead of you (only a maximum of three bombs count for each phase).

 

But you tried. Kinda.

[Trejgon.9367]

33 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Before the mount was introduced, there were no people on mounts, instantly flying to the boss and DPSing it down in ten seconds. And there were no people on mounts, taking the bomb, and dropping it ahead of you (only a maximum of three bombs count for each phase).

 

Before mounts people were just gliding in there and nuking the phase in 10 seconds. Barely a difference, and still you pretty much had to have crashed chopper spawn on your or next to your platform to have ANY hope to get it done.

 

35 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

  "Everyone struggles, but with cooperation, you can do it" != "Feel lost while everyone else races past you and completes bosses before you can get any participation in"

How about "feel lost while everyone else is already spread in perfect position and complete the bosses before your wandering lost soul gets into relevant areas"?

The only difference between then and now is that some players have mobility to tag all the bosses, while others are in same situation of having to camp single outpost through all of the night. That and the fact that you don't have to camp those outposts through day phase to reach max rewards as well.

[Dayra.7405]

On 8/28/2021 at 10:06 PM, Obfuscate.6430 said:

You can leap from the back of them on to the end of some jumping puzzles regardless of the mount and gliding ban. 

I don't think mount and gliding bans in the map are the way to make JP's cheese secured.

 

The right way is: give them a start point as races have it. This start point disables evrything (including portals of mesmers, thiefs, Prototype_Position_Rewinder , ....) that should not be used, and enables chest content and achievements.

 

On the other hand it's at least been debatable, if cheesing should be removed. I like to discover cheesing ways more than I like to jump 🙂 and some players would never had done JP's without portals.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Dayra.7405

[T G.7496]

8 hours ago, BlueJin.4127 said:

Considering that a common argument is that newer players are at a disadvantage without mounts, adding more road blocks like this would really only hurt newer players more.

Being a new player is a temporary condition, it soon wears off.

[phandaria.4891]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

  "Everyone struggles, but with cooperation, you can do it" != "Feel lost while everyone else races past you and completes bosses before you can get any participation in"

What is it that you can't do without mounts in VB? Map participation is quite easy to rack in and there's always the Waypoint=>Chopper to tag the bosses.

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Before the mount was introduced, there were no people on mounts, instantly flying to the boss and DPSing it down in ten seconds. And there were no people on mounts, taking the bomb, and dropping it ahead of you (only a maximum of three bombs count for each phase).

 

But you tried. Kinda.

With Mouth of Mordremoth, there's always a time gap between the map indicator and the DPS. Unless you are situated at the far end, it is not likely that you will miss it. Even if you are at the far end, you can WP to get it, as people have done before mounts.

Skyscale is an account progression and it is always a disadvantage in ANY MMO, if you haven't progressed as far as the latest content. But there's nothing stopping you from spending the time as much as other vets have spent and unlocking it.

Edited August 30, 2021 by phandaria.4891

[Dante.1763]

27 minutes ago, Dayra.7405 said:

I don't think mount and gliding bans in the map are the way to make JP's chease secured.

 

The right way is: give them a start point as races have it. This start point disables evrything (including portals of mesmers, thiefs, Prototype_Position_Rewinder , ....) that should not be used, and enables chest content and achievements.

 

On the other hand it's at least been debatable, if cheasing should be removed. I like to discover cheasing ways more than I like to jump 🙂 and some players would never had done JP's without portals.

Yeee id rather not see them removed, and id rather see the jps that have no glider/mount zones have those zones removed, you can get around almost all of those anyways, so theres really no point in them.

 

[Gibson.4036]

I do, unapologetically, use my raptor dismount to tag mobs during the daily that requires events in an given zone, but only if things are getting insta-killed by the mass of players also all there to do the daily. In that situation, without mounts, there are some professions with frequent, fast moving, long-ranged skills who have the clear advantage, so i don't feel bad about jumping in and getting bronze or silver with a few raptor dismounts.

Apart from that, raptor dismount is annoying in low level zones. If we could keep the pull (so useful to start on melee builds who don't have one) and tweak the damage to scale better, I could see that being an improvement.

Roller Beetle is also a clear advantage in the specific situation of daily events in a zone. Events get knocked out so quickly with a zone swarming with daily chasers that a quick way to cover a lot of ground and find the events is powerful. The beetle is fairly easy to get, though, so it'd be hard to complain if you don't have one. Low level characters are going to be out of luck if they are in the zone for the daily anyway, so they should probably just pick another zone to play on that day. Or that particular annoying daily could be removed?

Before I got my Skyscale I found I could pretty much keep up with groups via a combination of raptor and springer. The one exception are the bonus champs after the Dragonfall meta. Even with a skyscale, it is difficult to keep up with the group that runs around hitting all the champs one after another. Without skscale, you're out of luck. This could be fixed not by altering skyscale, but by tweaking he scaling of the Champs so they are harder to defeat.

As far as jumping puzzles? I have very mixed feelings. They are really cool in concept. I enjoy them to an extent. But there are a lot of problems with them as well, like places where your camera ends up buried in nearby architecture so you can't see the next jump you need to make, surfaces that are not shaped like the thing you actually see, and places where some objects are surfaces and others are purely cosmetic you'll fall right through. If jumping and JP design were of a quality of a good platformer, I could see getting stingy about locking down shortcuts. As it is, I'm glad there's sometimes a way to call it a day on a puzzle I've tried a dozen times and just get the credit for some long achievement I'm pursuing so I can move on to the next thing.

[mythical.6315]

7 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

I understand where the OP is coming from.

One of the best examples is Verdant Brink. If you have Skyscale, you can actually participate in the meta, hit all the bosses, get full camp security, end up with 200% participation, and obtain all the rewards. No Skyscale? You'll get two bosses, maybe three. You have ~no say in if the map security tier goes up or not. You'll feel like crap seeing fifty flying players descend upon the boss while you're doing the climby-glidy-bit to even get there, only to not even get a tag in.

Dragonstand? Pretty much the same thing, in the final fight. You'll ~never (never) get the bomber achievement without Skyscale, the amount of time that you need to get to the mortar, then glide over to Mordy, and then drop it, the head phase is long dead by then. 

You could do that already before mounts. It’s also significantly more efficient to use Griffon if using mounts up there. 
 

As for Dragon’s Stand, you didn’t need mounts for that. I’d say the majority of us got that well before mounts came out. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by mythical.6315

[Xanadrine.4352]

Is this about people flying over mountains? Because in maps with out invisible walls if you can springer it you can do it. There are plenty of maps skyscale cant cross invisible walls op. I dont have skyscale yet on this toon but im going to be working on it. 

 

Skyscale is basically a leggy mount, griffon should have been imo because its truly an epic investment...but skyscale is it.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Zuldari.3940

[ASP.8093]

8 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

I understand where the OP is coming from.

One of the best examples is Verdant Brink. If you have Skyscale, you can actually participate in the meta, hit all the bosses, get full camp security, end up with 200% participation, and obtain all the rewards. No Skyscale? You'll get two bosses, maybe three. You have ~no say in if the map security tier goes up or not. You'll feel like crap seeing fifty flying players descend upon the boss while you're doing the climby-glidy-bit to even get there, only to not even get a tag in.

Dragonstand? Pretty much the same thing, in the final fight. You'll ~never (never) get the bomber achievement without Skyscale, the amount of time that you need to get to the mortar, then glide over to Mordy, and then drop it, the head phase is long dead by then. 

OK, but now we're not talking about initial exploration, we're talking about grinding away at those maps for the sake of loot and achievements.

[DrCereal.1765]

On 8/28/2021 at 8:20 PM, Narathkor.8541 said:

but when you can cheese every aspect of the game and screw everyone else around you, yeah you need to fix it so they can't get over places.

 

"When Envy breeds unkind division:
There comes the ruin, there begins confusion."

No one is "screwing" anyone here. If you don't like being left behind, get yourself a skyscale. No one is stopping you, but yourself.

 

I don't like the fact that I need to spend 100g to change the very expensive set of runes out of my armor, because I don't have a legendary armor set. Well, tough luck for me. I can either get myself legendary armor, or make do.  Or, I could come qq on the forums, I guess, and ask for legendary armor to be nerfed.

Edited August 30, 2021 by DrCereal.1765

[Maikimaik.1974]

I mean now with the Return to LS4 event going on, it's the best time to start working on unlocking the Skyscale yourself.

[sewenewes.4176]

I personally dislike the skyscale not because of how it's obtained but because it feels like pandering to players used to traditional mounts from other games. All the other mounts, griffon included, had their own unique niche and drawbacks that redefinied movement and reinvigorated exploration. The skyscale doesn't really bring anything new to the game. What it does is invalidate every other mount through convenience and efficiency.

 

Why bother with switching between the other mounts and trying to use terrain to your advantage, adjusting your strategy on the fly, when you can just hop on the easy-mode dragon, fly up, and then straight ahead? Land on some surface when your stamina is about to run out then continue on your path. Such strategy, much excitement.

 

I see people bring up that the skyscale is slower than other mounts thus doesn't replace them. Except the terrain in most parts of the game have obstacles that would normally require running, jumping, hovering, portaling, swooping around which means that someone using their other mounts usually loses to the one on the skyscale because the speed advantage is negated by the time it takes to navigate obstacles and switch between mounts.

 

The springer and jackal remain my favourite mounts simply because I love their animations and so I keep using them but it's undeniable that the skyscale is more efficient.

[mythical.6315]

I personally use all of the mounts. In only a few scenarios is Skyscale actually superior. In the rest, other mounts, or combinations of mounts, is more efficient. 

[Konrad Curze.5130]

There's nothing you can do on Skyscale that you can't do on bunny+grif. Hell, 90%  of the time bunny alone will suffice. If you want to "fix" stuff you'll have to "fix" it for every mount, not just skyscale. 

[Gibson.4036]

1 hour ago, ewenness.6482 said:

 

The springer and jackal remain my favourite mounts simply because I love their animations and so I keep using them but it's undeniable that the skyscale is more efficient.

Skyscale has largely replaced the springer for me, but not any of the other mounts. It really is too slow in most maps, and feels like a hastle to constantly touch down. I use jackal and raptor mostly interchangeably for general travel, favoring jackal in heavy mob zones with range so I can teleport past, and raptor if there's going to be gaps to jump. I really like the skimmer if there are rivers or big bodies of water. It covers ground quick. Roller beetle is excellent if I know I can find a good route, but it drives me nuts how easily a small obstruction I fail to avoid can deplete it of all momentum.

I don't, unfortunately, use my griffon much. It just feels like by the time I get up to some perch so it's high enough to do its zoom thing, I could have been halfway to where I'm going.

So, I don't agree it's undeniable. Skyscale is mostly for short distances over terrain with lots of level changes. Even then, sometimes I get partway up a cliff and realize I have to use the wall-jump which is super awkward compared to others on springers who are smoothly bounding past ledge to ledge.

[Farohna.6247]

13 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

I understand where the OP is coming from.

One of the best examples is Verdant Brink. If you have Skyscale, you can actually participate in the meta, hit all the bosses, get full camp security, end up with 200% participation, and obtain all the rewards. No Skyscale? You'll get two bosses, maybe three. You have ~no say in if the map security tier goes up or not. You'll feel like crap seeing fifty flying players descend upon the boss while you're doing the climby-glidy-bit to even get there, only to not even get a tag in.

Dragonstand? Pretty much the same thing, in the final fight. You'll ~never (never) get the bomber achievement without Skyscale, the amount of time that you need to get to the mortar, then glide over to Mordy, and then drop it, the head phase is long dead by then. 

Verdant Brink...waypoints and chopper are faster than flying for night, daytime is equally easy to traverse.  Mounts are handy but you can achieve 200% without one.  I have skyscale and griffon and seldom get to all the night bosses either, just because trains spread out and kill some quickly.

Achieved the bomber one in Dragonstand two days ago using just gliding and updrafts, more a matter of how fast the groups are killing it and fortunate placement of the head.

For new players, yes it can be a disadvantage, things die very fast and getting there is hard. Same could be said of teleports to people and it's often challenging to keep up with groups who are pushing maps quickly, even on a mount.

[Crackmonster.2790]

I started the game after path of fire, and i full cleared the whole base game and heart of thorns including every jumping puzzle etc in the oldschool way first before i got my mounts. Now im so happy i dont have to do it the "old" way again taking forever and i can just zoom vroom on new characters which i seem to be making a ton of testing new ones and usually just start map completion on everyone until i change it to main or lose interest.

Point being, do it the hard way if you want it, but kitten im happy i can make a lot of skips. Maybe with the exception of jumping puzzles being skipped fully that a bit... ehh... still do it though 😄with how many characters im plowing through i dont think i could suffer it in the mega slow way, it already takes days and days of hard work to get the map completions and other completions on the full content on 1 character.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Crackmonster.2790

[LucianDK.8615]

Its a relief to have the skyscale to bypass much tedious content youve seen too many times now. Its a 'legendary mount' for obvious reasons.

[sewenewes.4176]

1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

So, I don't agree it's undeniable. Skyscale is mostly for short distances over terrain with lots of level changes.

 

I think that's why the OP (and others in this thread) feel it's mandatory. The average gameplay loop has you travelling relatively short distances between each mounting because you're stopping to gather or participate in an event or because you were forced off your mount. Every mount can be used for that and you can even decide to not mount up at all. I personally greatly enjoy topsy-turvy environments and often just run because it's fun to fight stuff and gather from every node or container I see. When you want to keep up with players however you need to go for what is the most efficient and helps you avoid combat the most or otherwise you risk missing out on whatever is it you are targeting.

 

If it's a completely flat area with zero obstructions and few enemies then you can just raptor leap as the easiest and fastest solution. How common is that however, especially in the expansions? The skyscale is slow but it bypasses all obstacles and enemies by flying over them and doesn't require careful planning or special conditions to make full use of its abilities. It also grants its rider the ability to wait around in any spot without gettng killed by simply hovering in the air indefinitely. Its slowness and penchant for sticking to odd bit of surfaces don't feel like big enough drawbacks compared to how useful and easy to handle it is. The griffon can fly circles around it in theory but in reality using the griffon to its full potential requires planning and quite a bit of skill.

 

I don't begrudge players riding the skyscale because it's the easiest way to keep up with trains, meta events, and try for achievements. If it wasn't, my screen wouldn't be covered in a flurry of flapping wings at every big event I participate in. Sometimes I wish the skyscale would be nerfed just so I could stop getting cluster migraines from the tornado of many a garishly coloured glowing sparkle dragon flapping all over the place. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by ewenness.6482

[Gibson.4036]

15 hours ago, ewenness.6482 said:

 

 

I don't begrudge players riding the skyscale because it's the easiest way to keep up with trains, meta events, and try for achievements. If it wasn't, my screen wouldn't be covered in a flurry of flapping wings at every big event I participate in. Sometimes I wish the skyscale would be nerfed just so I could stop getting cluster migraines from the tornado of many a garishly coloured glowing sparkle dragon flapping all over the place. 

You defnitely attend more popular events than I.

Waiting for Tequatl just recently, there were a few hovering skyscales, but the vast majority of people were just standing on the ground waiting. I was the dancing choya bouncing between launch platforms. Hope I didn't instigate any migraines; I just found it amusing.

The biggest skyscale clusters I think I've run across are when a big guild is massing for an event. I just don't see the air filled with flapping at world bosses or zone metas.

You're right though, general gameplay does tend toward needing short distances covered over big terrain changes. Partly that seems to be a specific design choice. Ever since HoT ANet really has a thing for verticality. If I remember right, they even mentioned it looking forward at EoD. I find myself using all of the other mounts regularly, though, except the springer and griffon, which was my point. The skyscale is tremendously useful, but it's not my experience that it made the others obsolete. It's one of the brilliant things about they way they designed mounts that they each have their specific uses.

[T G.7496]

Skyscale is GREAT.

I was sceptical for such a long time, but in the end I got it.

And it really does open up old maps and old content in fun (and more convenient) ways for older players.

[Obfuscate.6430]

On 8/28/2021 at 8:03 PM, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Curious.  What pre-mount Masteries in Core Tyria are they rendering meaningless?

Sorry for not seeing this sooner. 
I don't think they are rendering any core tyrian masteries meaningless, but mounts are disrupting the experience for new players: ie raptor engage killing mobs before a new player can get a hit in. The second issue is people using flying or hopping mounts to get at the chest at the end of some puzzles despite the no fly/no mount zone. 

[Ultramex.1506]

You still can get to places even on newer map like Drizzlewood Coast (it have boucing mushroom) Skyscale is a shortcut

i'm 50/50 on this but you can still get anywhere without Skyscale

[ASP.8093]

7 hours ago, Obfuscate.6430 said:

The second issue is people using flying or hopping mounts to get at the chest at the end of some puzzles despite the no fly/no mount zone. 

That's kind of a non-issue, though. They get faster access to one mediocre reward chest and an easier time getting a few achievement points. And any time a JP is a daily there's like five mesmers already standing there ready to port you up.