Can we get an official DPS Meter?

[Ashgar.3024]

First note, i'm not a huge fan of addons, at all. Getting away from them was a huge selling point of this game for me. Being heavily encouraged to have a fricking command center and 8+ weakauras per boss etc. etc. in WoW is one of the many reasons i quit it permanently.

 

That said, DPS meter will always be wanted by high end PvE players in any game, in the vast majority of the cases for the right reasons. Right now the only option for that in this game is an awkward 3rd party program who consistently crashes the game. At this point i'm stuck reinstalling it only during my raid night cause otherwise it literally loses me games in PvP. Its annoying. No slight to the developper of the tool, i'm sure its incredibly hard to program and best case Anet could give him a contract to actually implement it officially.

 

But right now i'm stuck in a situation where i'm stuck running a tool i'm more or less required to use to do a part of the game i enjoy, but that tool breaks my game. 

 

I mean make it an optional opt-in if needed, yes that won't change anything in Raid as ofc Commanders will ask you to opt-in, but that would solve the issue of people not wanting to get shamed for AFKing in Meta Events or whatever.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Griever.8150

[Parasite.5389]

an in-game DPS meter would cause more issues Socially with the game.

people are already kicked from raid/fractal groups for because someone is unhappy with their DPS output; making a meter an official function of the game would just re-enforce the idea that this kind of behaviour is acceptable.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Parasite.5389

[Handsel.2891]

45 minutes ago, Griever.8150 said:

...but that would solve the issue of people not wanting to get shamed for AFKing in Meta Events or whatever.

Not wanting to get shamed is the wrong reason to have something in the game that can be used for exactly that. It's weird that this was your choice for a closing argument.

On the other hand, I think I'm not alone with my opinion that some AFK players do deserve to be shamed sometimes. Not to mention that they probably don't really contribute much to the action, anyway, DPS-wise...

Edited October 31, 2021 by MikeG.6389

[AgentMoore.9453]

People are gonna do the DPS check thing whether it's official or not, so I'd be in favor of an official meter if only for the fact that it would standardize the information people are getting and allow them to discontinue the current third party apps that are in use. Additionally, the feature should only show you your own numbers - if the goal is to improve your performance, you have no business looking at anyone else's output. Want to know what their output is? Ask them.

[Ashgar.3024]

20 minutes ago, Parasite.5389 said:

an in-game DPS meter would cause more issues Socially with the game.

people are already kicked from raid/fractal groups for because someone is unhappy with their DPS output; making a meter an official function of the game would just re-enforce the idea that this kind of behaviour is acceptable.

 

I do pug T4 Fractals almost everyday. Never see that happen. People don't care that much. Raiding is already being heavily gatekept by KP/LI and Raid Commanders who don't run Arc don't exist.

 

People will run Arc regardless what Anet does. I'm just asking for them to cut the middle-man.

[mythical.6315]

1 hour ago, Griever.8150 said:

Right now the only option for that in this game is an awkward 3rd party program who consistently crashes the game.

Then update it?  I only ever crash on patch days and it’s not all of the time either. 

[ShadowCatz.8437]

40 minutes ago, Griever.8150 said:

 

I do pug T4 Fractals almost everyday. Never see that happen. People don't care that much. Raiding is already being heavily gatekept by KP/LI and Raid Commanders who don't run Arc don't exist.

 

People will run Arc regardless what Anet does. I'm just asking for them to cut the middle-man.

ArcDPS isn't ONLY a DPS meter as it today have many add-on that make use of it present messages and information from game. It offer a base which other add-ons like Scrolling Combat Text (GW2SCT) make use of so it is possible to have Cloud like numbers displyed around character (with icon for damage type and diferent colour depending on source - very useful for seeing conditon that are hitting your PC or when you play conditon builds).

It is even possible to suppress (turn off) in game numbers for all damage sources including incomming and outgoing heals and effect messages (buff/debuff) like Evades, Blocks etc. SCT do also offer control for what kind of size fonts should have for use with higher resolution then 1080P and maybe larger display where numbers can be really hard to see as those gets very small. There are also other things that both ArcDPS offer which is very unlikely ANet would fully support as both are based on overlay and not in game UI restrictions. Try to make your minmap larger and you will have several other UI part getting too large or the other way around.

With this add-on I don't have to see every characters that are getting hit from an AoE all around on my screen and focus on my charactes damage/conditions and heals including which effects that are happening. It is the same information you would find in chat when you enable incomming and outgoing damage sources.

https://github.com/Artenuvielle/GW2-SCT

I am surpricesed that ArcDPS actually are working as well as it does now during Beta testing, so I don't think your argument with it crashing your client are valid for what you wish Devs at ANet to make for you.

Here is the full list from ArcDPS page:

realtime api
 place extensions in gw2 install dir/bin64/.
 /u/e-scrape-artist: https://buildpad.gw2archive.eu/
 /u/Artenuvielle: https://github.com/Artenuvielle/GW2-SCT/releases
 knox#6597: https://github.com/knoxfighter/arcdps-killproof.me-plugin/releases
 knox#6597: https://github.com/knoxfighter/GW2-ArcDPS-Boon-Table/releases
 knox#6597: https://github.com/knoxfighter/GW2-ArcDPS-Mechanics-Log/releases
 gegplo#1619: https://github.com/jiangyi0923/d3d9_arcdps_sytool/releases
 gegplo#1619: https://github.com/jiangyi0923/GW2_arcdps_MountTool/releases
 Kappa322#2725: https://github.com/Krappa322/arcdps_healing_stats/releases
 Sejsel#8491: https://gw2scratch.com/tools/arcdps-clears

I haven't used those other add-ons, but it should be enough to show that if ArcDPS would be discontinued that it would have large impact on more then just ArcDPS as a DPS meter.

Edited October 31, 2021 by ShadowCatz.8437

[Ashgar.3024]

1 hour ago, mythical.6315 said:

Then update it?  I only ever crash on patch days and it’s not all of the time either. 

 

Literally update it every week.

[mindcircus.1506]

4 hours ago, Griever.8150 said:

First note, i'm not a huge fan of addons, at all. Getting away from them was a huge selling point of this game for me. Being heavily encouraged to have a fricking command center and 8+ weakauras per boss etc. etc. in WoW is one of the many reasons i quit it permanently.

 

That said, DPS meter will always be wanted by high end PvE players in any game, in the vast majority of the cases for the right reasons. Right now the only option for that in this game is an awkward 3rd party program who consistently crashes the game. At this point i'm stuck reinstalling it only during my raid night cause otherwise it literally loses me games in PvP. Its annoying. No slight to the developper of the tool, i'm sure its incredibly hard to program and best case Anet could give him a contract to actually implement it officially.

 

But right now i'm stuck in a situation where i'm stuck running a tool i'm more or less required to use to do a part of the game i enjoy, but that tool breaks my game. 

 

I mean make it an optional opt-in if needed, yes that won't change anything in Raid as ofc Commanders will ask you to opt-in, but that would solve the issue of people not wanting to get shamed for AFKing in Meta Events or whatever.

While I am in full support of DPS meters and would absolutely prefer an ingame solution as well, your hyperbolic claims do nothing to strengthen the argument and actually detract from it.

This idea that it crashes the game constantly and causes you to lose pvp matches are the kind of false rhetoric that are counterproductive to having an actual conversation on the matter.

 

Proper numbers, outbound healing, reliable boon uptime measurements are relevant reasons to request an ingame solution.

Not trusting a third party developer, or pointing to the fact that stats are available after every pvp match are also relevant reasons.

Pointing to the inconsistency of Condition Damage calculations that often plague Arc updates is a relevant reason.

You don't need to use false rhetoric and baseless hyperbole to advocate for this.
There are plenty of excellent real reasons to do so,

[mythical.6315]

6 hours ago, Griever.8150 said:

 

Literally update it every week.

Then there’s something wrong on your end because if it were causing as many crashes, and as often as you seem to be expressing, there would be more complaints about it. Since there isn’t, then you have something set up wrong, you’re blaming it when the crashes are from something else, or you’re exaggerating. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by mythical.6315

[IndigoSundown.5419]

Be careful what you ask for.  Arc used to also offer a build template feature.  The official template system is very poor in comparison, and ANet charges per character for the important aspects of it.  Past performance is the best indicator of future performance.

[Khisanth.2948]

8 hours ago, Parasite.5389 said:

an in-game DPS meter would cause more issues Socially with the game.

people are already kicked from raid/fractal groups for because someone is unhappy with their DPS output; making a meter an official function of the game would just re-enforce the idea that this kind of behaviour is acceptable.

People were doing that long before DPS meters existed in GW2 except they were making up the numbers in their head instead.

Having or not having isn't going to change that situation one bit.

4 hours ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

This idea that it crashes the game constantly and causes you to lose pvp matches are the kind of false rhetoric that are counterproductive to having an actual conversation on the matter.

Pretty sure a lot more of those are actually caused by ANet via outfits.

arc shouldn't be active in PvP anyway.

I've only ever seen arc break in two ways but it usually doesn't.

1) throws errors and stops functioning but nothing else happens, occasionally causes additional annoying warnings

2) game won't start at all

in either case they are noticeable as soon as you start the game. Obviously if you see the error/warnings then you should remove it before going into a match.

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Khisanth.2948

[Asum.4960]

9 hours ago, Parasite.5389 said:

an in-game DPS meter would cause more issues Socially with the game.

people are already kicked from raid/fractal groups for because someone is unhappy with their DPS output; making a meter an official function of the game would just re-enforce the idea that this kind of behaviour is acceptable.

Before DPS Meter's became accepted, people were getting kicked based on what professions they were playing and their perceived performance (or even unironically their amount of Achievement Points) - when something would go wrong with a group repeatedly wiping and not being able to clear content, a top performing player on an overall perceived as weakly performing profession could be unrightfully kicked, with problem players remaining in place, wipes continuing and groups falling apart for no reason. 

 

At least with DPS meter's that hit's the right person and the group can go on, and it reduces class/build discrimination in the game, as everybody can prove themselves with clearly visible performance. 

 

That said though, that's by far and wide not the primary use of DPS meters, and even with thousands of hours in hardcore PvE content, I honestly barely ever saw it being used to pick out, call out and kick players outside of really hardcore groups which where also only looking for likeminded and proficient players. Generally kicks only happen when one player is so clearly underperforming and misplaying that they are straight up preventing progress (to a point where it's fairly clear who it is even without DPS meter), while repeatedly failing or refusing to listen to advice and teaching, if not downright reacting in a hostile and toxic/truculent manner to it. 

 

The main purpose of the tool is self improvement through the ability to monitor, compare and quantify one's own performance. 

If more players knew their actual performance, strived to improve it and joined groups and acted accordingly, I can't see how that would do anything but positive things for the game socially. 

 

You wouldn't believe how ironically enough it's often actually players who clearly don't have a DPS meter, performing at 1/10th of the DPS of others themselves, are the toxic and hostile players flaming others based on their by them perceived lack of performance. 

 

1 hour ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

Be careful what you ask for.  Arc used to also offer a build template feature.  The official template system is very poor in comparison, and ANet charges per character for the important aspects of it.  Past performance is the best indicator of future performance.

 

My defense of DPS Meter's above aside though, I fully agree with this. 

I'm very reluctant to ask Anet for QoL features at this point, knowing what happened to templates. 

I'm not a fan of the idea of Anet making a shoddy DPS Meter themselves, banning the use of the vastly superior and free Arc DPS and then charging it's players thousands upon thousands of Gems just to have to buy some very limited functionality in it back. 

 

As long as regularly updated, I also don't share the same crashing issues etc. with it as the OP. In over 4 years of usage I think I had ~5 crashes caused by Arc without it being my fault down to running an old version.

 

Unless they release it as free fairly baseline optional ingame feature that they allow Arc to coexist with for serious use and deep diving, please no.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Asum.4960

[firedragon.8953]

I don't like addons either. I also think DPS meters can create a "less than friendly" environment.

I do wish they'd at least give us more easily accessible dps golems though. Maybe put a few in the Eye of the North, a few in each "VIP lounge" and the option to put a couple in the guild hall. It would also be awesome if they calculated median damage along with the maximum damage recorded and the minimum taken for your selected profession within a 1 minute window of time to give a somewhat accurate "benchmark" that you could try to beat/meet. Have the such a golem database be wiped with every patch that modifies skills/traits to reflect balance patch changes.

Why would this preferred? Well, because then people could easily play around with builds and practice rotations before going into actual content.

[Ashantara.8731]

11 hours ago, Parasite.5389 said:

an in-game DPS meter would cause more issues Socially with the game.

As opposed to using an existing and highly popular third-party solution?

Edited November 1, 2021 by Ashantara.8731

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

 

1 hour ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

Having or not having isn't going to change that situation one bit.

If we have an official tool, they will feel like they have the honorable right to analyze and judge everyone in the game by their DPS. That ANet has given them the mission to cleanse the community from the slackers. They are not that bold at the moment. When they go berzerk about performance, it is mostly in their own sub-content. For now, they stay away from disturbing Open World PvE and meta-events (mostly). 

The current system is already annoying. Arc does not have an on/off button. Which means all players who run it, run it all the time and everywhere. They shirley run it for the content they need, for self-optimization of course. But they get the data for every other content, too. It is hard to resist not-looking at it. 

For example, a few months ago we had a discussion on this board where a player who ran Arc complained about underperforming party-members in a lowlevel dungeon. 

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

If more players knew their actual performance, strived to improve it and joined groups and acted accordingly, I can't see how that would do anything but positive things for the game socially. 

Not every player in GW2 has this as their private personal goal. Some of us just come here to relax from RL. Play a story, explore a little, have some fun with other people. Your kind is not the majority of the playerbase. Else we would be at wing 25 and PoF would be announced to be released May 2022.

[Tukaram.8256]

11 hours ago, Parasite.5389 said:

an in-game DPS meter would cause more issues Socially with the game.

You mean like others seeing other people's DPS?  I would never think that would be a thing.  Do the 3rd party addons work for just your avatar - or others?  

 

I would love any official tools to give us more info about ourselves, but it is no one else's business. 

[Asum.4960]

53 minutes ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

Not every player in GW2 has this as their private personal goal. Some of us just come here to relax from RL. Play a story, explore a little, have some fun with other people. Your kind is not the majority of the playerbase. Else we would be at wing 25 and PoF would be announced to be released May 2022.

And I in no way implied that, rather talking about high end group content where performance matters and is relied upon by other's to succeed and have fun.

If that's your playstyle and goal in the game and you are having fun with that, then that's wonderful, genuinely. But DPS Meter's also don't impact that in any shape or form either way. 

If anyone berates you for your performance in Story, Open World or while map exploring, they are out of their mind, DPS Meter or not.

 

I don't think the "my kind" classification and assumption was necessary, but okay. 

 

As for your fear about being called out in OW activities such as meta events, I'll tell you now that in the average OW meta event zerg of 50 players, 2-5 players usually do about >80% of the groups Damage. If players were calling each other out for low DPS in OW, trust me, it would already be happening at a massive scale with such an extreme discrepancy between players. 

There really isn't much incentive for any one of those well performing players to antagonise 70-90% of their squad/of the general playerbase, especially since the content is tuned in such a way that success is almost guaranteed, no matter the performance of the individual players. 

 

Performance only matters in places where players rely on each other to succeed and have fun, which is pretty much only niche instanced away group content in GW2. And in that I don't think it's helpful when well performing and intentioned players are wrongly called out or kicked based on prejudices such as what class they are playing or how many Achievement Points they have (as was the case before DPS Meter Addons for GW2), rather than players having factual information available to make informed decisions about who is struggling, how to assist and help them, or as last resort who to get rid of for the good of the whole rest of the group to be able to have fun and succeed. 

 

I don't really see how that's controversial tbh. If I was the player dragging down an entire group of other players and wasting their time unknowingly, I at least would like to know and maybe be able to do something about it, rather than fueling unknown hostilities.

DPS Meters don't affect content where performance doesn't matter at all while being a net gain for content where it does. 

Players being called out by others now and then happens with or without them, just for largely prejudices and arbitrary reasons without rather than factual ones with.

 

Quote

If we have an official tool, they will feel like they have the honorable right to analyze and judge everyone in the game by their DPS. That ANet has given them the mission to cleanse the community from the slackers. They are not that bold at the moment. When they go berzerk about performance, it is mostly in their own sub-content. For now, they stay away from disturbing Open World PvE and meta-events (mostly).

 

Anet could easily update their Code of Conduct to include harassment based on DPS information as infraction along with an official tool. Plus, again, individual performance in OW PvE doesn't really matter as success is largely given - so there isn't much to any reason for call outs.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Asum.4960

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

Performance only matters in places where players rely on each other to succeed and have fun, which is pretty much only niche instanced away group content in GW2. And in that I don't think it's helpful when well performing and intentioned players are wrongly called out or kicked based on prejudices such as what class they are playing or how many Achievement Points they have (as was the case before DPS Meter Addons for GW2), rather than players having factual information available to make informed decisions about who is struggling, how to assist and help them, or as last resort who to get rid of for the good of the whole rest of the group to be able to have fun and succeed. 

 

 

I was under the impression that many, if not a majority, of hard-core end-game players already use ARC.  Why would an official tool be needed at this point?  Is it really worth Anet's time and resources to develop a tool for a niche group of players when one already exists which meets with their approval?

[Asum.4960]

12 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I was under the impression that many, if not a majority, of hard-core end-game players already use ARC.  Why would an official tool be needed at this point?  Is it really worth Anet's time and resources to develop a tool for a niche group of players when one already exists which meets with their approval?

Asking the wrong person - I personally don't think so, I was just responding to critique of DPS Meter's in general. 

Especially after what happened to the template/loadout system, I'd rather not have Anet try to emulate/take over any more third party solutions, since it almost certainly will fall short and come with more limitations and a hefty, hefty price tag. 

 

I do know some few other players like the OP who do have issues with Arc on their machines though concerning game crashes. 

There are some other benefits to exposing more players to the concept by making it a optional base game function though, as it has a chance to disenchant some of the fear and fearmongering about the concept and making more people realise that it's just a really handy and harmless tool - but if that's worth the risk of Anet limiting and monetizing necessary functions of it is questionable.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

 

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

Performance only matters in places where players rely on each other to succeed and have fun, which is pretty much only niche instanced away group content in GW2. And in that I don't think it's helpful when well performing and intentioned players are wrongly called out or kicked based on prejudices such as what class they are playing or how many Achievement Points they have (as was the case before DPS Meter Addons for GW2), rather than players having factual information available to make informed decisions about who is struggling, how to assist and help them, or as last resort who to get rid of for the good of the whole rest of the group to be able to have fun and succeed. 

This is mostly the consensus I have with the others already. More or less. I'm not even strictly against an ingame DPS meter, as long as it is restricted to that special content. If Arc would only work in Raids, Fractals of T3 and above, Strike Missions and DRMs with active challenge-motes, I would be fine with even that. 

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

Anet could easily update their Code of Conduct to include harassment based on DPS information as infraction along with an official tool. Plus, again, individual performance in OW PvE doesn't really matter as success is largely given - so there isn't much to any reason for call outs.

We had so many threads in this board and the instanced-subboard. Big thanks for the name change! They only change their documents when they have to. And players fighting players is not a good reason. When laws change in certain countries, that is a good reason to review the documents. 

My problem is the following: The entire mess started with Raids long time ago. The performance focused group-gameplay, self optimization, ... ect. Then it swapped to Fractals, first T4 CM, then T4 normal, then T3. Step by step. Strike Missions were introduced to make new players an easy entry into raids. What did they do? Raids 2.0. If you want to get into Strike Missions, the LFG is not your friend. Join a training guild. They demand KP and LI for that content now. We are talking about raid-entry content with reduced difficulty. Then the difficulty was reduced even more with DRMs. What happened? The same ^^. 

That is why I am so impulsive about that topic. Open World and story-instances are the last bastion, where we can play as we like. Rest is yours/theirs. LFG turned into a farming-tool for hardcore players. New players are recommended to join guilds to get introduced into instanced-content. 

Back to topic. As long as an official tool would replace Arc and only work for specific content, go for it. But open world should stay as it is. 

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

As opposed to using an existing and highly popular third-party solution?

Yes. That third-party solution is still beng used by a small minority of players. In-game meter would be used by everyone - most of whom would have no idea when and how to use it (and when not to).

Besides, based on the experience from the "template" system, if Anet were to include official DPS meter in the game, it would end up way inferior to Arc... but it would also make Arc use illegal. So, people that want to use meters would actually lose on the exchange.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Asum.4960]

8 minutes ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

My problem is the following: The entire mess started with Raids long time ago. The performance focused group-gameplay, self optimization, ... ect. Then it swapped to Fractals, first T4 CM, then T4 normal, then T3. Step by step. Strike Missions were introduced to make new players an easy entry into raids. What did they do? Raids 2.0. If you want to get into Strike Missions, the LFG is not your friend. Join a training guild. They demand KP and LI for that content now. We are talking about raid-entry content with reduced difficulty. Then the difficulty was reduced even more with DRMs. What happened? The same ^^. 

That is why I am so impulsive about that topic. Open World and story-instances are the last bastion, where we can play as we like. Rest is yours/theirs. LFG turned into a farming-tool for hardcore players. New players are recommended to join guilds to get introduced into instanced-content. 

Back to topic. As long as an official tool would replace Arc and only work for specific content, go for it. But open world should stay as it is. 

People seem to have very selective memory/perception there. There were just as much elitist Dungeon parties at launch, kicking people based on Achievement Points or what class you played, long before Raids, DPS meters or KP were a part of the game. 

 

KP, DPS Meters, etc., they are all just tools - a symptom at worst, not the problem. Neither was any type of content the "source" of certain players looking to play efficiently, which then spread to other places from there like a virus. 

Some people just find enjoyment in self-improvement and pushing themselves and want to play with likeminded people like that, other's just want to wind down and have a relaxed time. 

Both of those, and everything in between, is valid, and everybody has the tools to put up or search for groups fitting their style of play and needs.

 

Yes, some players who find fun in efficient and skillfull gameplay will ask for Kill Proof for even content like Strikes, but likewise there are players with more time on their hands who just want relaxed runs and don't (and those groups are usually much less visible on LFG because they fill much faster). Sometimes those are even the same players on different days. 

 

I just don't think this warped fearmongering or victim/hostile mentality towards the hardcore crowd, tools or gamemodes is healthy. It's not like those players asking for KP for their groups are taking anything away from casual players - who likely wouldn't enjoy playing at the pace and speed of those groups anyway. If anything such methods of filtering for likeminded players reduce toxicity between different mindsets clashing in actual play after group finding. 

 

Idk, I just feel like the GW2 community needs to learn to live and let live. When players start talking about sub-communities or gamemodes of their game like viruses because they enjoy playing the game differently to them, it's just strange to me.

[Aphandra.9672]

I kinda like the innocent nature of the game, going by the feel, is it going well, or not so much.
It also allows classes to be balanced differently from each having X dps. Was the downfall of WoW versatility as well. Some classes may rely on sustain, CC, kiting, god forbid supporting conditions, while others on raw burst. Of course, in a raid, throughput is the king, queen and prince together.

Then again, I sometimes wish to know where I am on the scale between good and bad.
So that when it matters, I know, how. Back in 2009 I used target dummies to try and improve my rotation, stats, etc.

To be specific, I couldn't do the last fight of Season 2. Was I bad? My gear? Both, neither, is it supposed to be social? I can never know. I can just argue either way given the abundance of mechanics.

[Parasite.5389]

6 hours ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

People were doing that long before DPS meters existed in GW2 except they were making up the numbers in their head instead.

Having or not having isn't going to change that situation one bit.

 

It's absolutely going to change the situation, it's going to make it worse.

 

3 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

As opposed to using an existing and highly popular third-party solution?

 

people seem to miss the part where i say " making a meter an official function of the game would just re-enforce the idea that this kind of behaviour is acceptable"

you should be able to play the game however you want, without someone else judging your actions based on a number.