Can we get an official DPS Meter?

[LadyKitty.6120]

21 minutes ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

 

This is mostly the consensus I have with the others already. More or less. I'm not even strictly against an ingame DPS meter, as long as it is restricted to that special content. If Arc would only work in Raids, Fractals of T3 and above, Strike Missions and DRMs with active challenge-motes, I would be fine with even that. 

We had so many threads in this board and the instanced-subboard. Big thanks for the name change! They only change their documents when they have to. And players fighting players is not a good reason. When laws change in certain countries, that is a good reason to review the documents. 

My problem is the following: The entire mess started with Raids long time ago. The performance focused group-gameplay, self optimization, ... ect. Then it swapped to Fractals, first T4 CM, then T4 normal, then T3. Step by step. Strike Missions were introduced to make new players an easy entry into raids. What did they do? Raids 2.0. If you want to get into Strike Missions, the LFG is not your friend. Join a training guild. They demand KP and LI for that content now. We are talking about raid-entry content with reduced difficulty. Then the difficulty was reduced even more with DRMs. What happened? The same ^^. 

That is why I am so impulsive about that topic. Open World and story-instances are the last bastion, where we can play as we like. Rest is yours/theirs. LFG turned into a farming-tool for hardcore players. New players are recommended to join guilds to get introduced into instanced-content. 

Back to topic. As long as an official tool would replace Arc and only work for specific content, go for it. But open world should stay as it is. 

People requiring LI+KP for Strikes and DRMs sounds weird O_o Is that the case on EU-servers? Just wondering considering their ridiculous "anti-fake clickspam" and super-high reqs in raids (while Kitty's witnessed multiple 250+ LI W4 FC groups wipe multiple times and disband at MO) while on NA people mostly require some KP (usually 30+) for harder raid bosses.

At least on NA servers, Arcdps has helped the community to give a fair chance in raids and fractal CMs to those who might seemingly not fulfill the requirements but say they know their stuff (though in fractal CMs even Kitty's become less understanding with people lacking DwD but that's due to them wiping squad by failing the mechs, not dps).

And as said by more than a few in this and numerous threads about the topic before, back in mid-2017 when only highest-tier players used arcdps, you got insta-kicked for wrong profession and if you were somehow allowed in, you were kicked after first wipe even if you were top dps by good margin and pointed who was the real culprit for low squad dps with numbers.

As a major altoholic who's always been playing weird builds and maximizing them for fun in "Flavour of the Week"-fashion, Kitty got to feel commanders' lack of Arcdps in a reaaally hard way during the first year of raiding from April 2017. Thankfully many raid commanders use it now.

But yes, Kitty's also sometimes pointed out if someone's doing low dps and even kicked if the squad has been failing the dps check needed for the strat due to being a few % away from phasing as a result of that low dps but even then, Kitty's not someone to kick just for not doing super-high numbers as she also likes to play weaker builds that perform adequately at best but still well enough to somewhat keep up. But a DPS player doing less damage than supports at the first boss of the wing is a worrisome sight if there's dps-intensive bosses further down the lane. Gorseval, Sabetha, Slothasor, Xera (mid-strat) are good examples of bosses that become really painful and even straight-up wipe the squad if the dps is low.

[Randulf.7614]

4 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

As opposed to using an existing and highly popular third-party solution?

Is it highly popular though? I suspect only a tiny fraction of the population use it. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

Making damage meters more widespread would have the side-effect of increasing gate-keeping among the subset of players who feel the need to validate their own existence based upon e-peen measurement.  However, it's unlikely the number of players who fit this description and aren't already using arcdps is very large.  The impact to the sensitive among us would likely be negligible.

On the other hand, an official tool could give better/easier information and could possibly include the ability to toggle.  Although, I should point out that a toggle would not prevent gate-keeping as any group so inclined would require the toggle to be turned on anyway.  It would also do away with the gray area on third-party tools like arcdps and the hassle of having to update it or deal with crashes all the time.

[AliamRationem.5172]

9 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Is it highly popular though? I suspect only a tiny fraction of the population use it. 

The numbers are likely skewed toward areas of the game where performance actually matters.  Among that slice of the population, I imagine a majority use this tool.  The fact that ANet looks the other way on arcdps further suggests that this is something many players want and could possibly leave the game over if access were restricted.

[LuRkEr.9462]

16 hours ago, Parasite.5389 said:

an in-game DPS meter would cause more issues Socially with the game.

people are already kicked from raid/fractal groups for because someone is unhappy with their DPS output; making a meter an official function of the game would just re-enforce the idea that this kind of behaviour is acceptable.

Those people getting kicked are coming in the groups doing less dps than an alac usually from my experience. 

I think the DPS meter would be a good thing, I have seen so many that are surprised when we tell them their DPS versus the other DPS members in a strike or fractal. It would be good so they can practice and get better.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

What schold be change thay schold add flag with happy face to county flags, that wuld mean party is more cool/casual oriented, same flag with gaming pad, for more hardcore partys

that way alot of ppl wuld avoid miscomunications

Edited November 1, 2021 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Fueki.4753]

If you want an DPS meter, use Arc and open yourself up to all the risks that may come with an unsupported addon.

I don't want to see an official DPS meter in the game.

If anything in regards to DPS meters, Arenanet should do what FF14 does and make talking about others' DPS a reportable offense.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[HotDelirium.7984]

and just like ArcDPS, have the option to make the damage numbers dissapear or much smaller, many times i can't even see  the combat.  There are SO many floating damage numbers AND the condi numbers shooting up from the target. It's really too much and a big turn off.

Edited November 1, 2021 by HotDelirium.7984

[Electra.7530]

I am in one of those conundrums where I have NEVER once succeeded in a party to complete a raid or kill even the first boss because, one, I'm not knowledgeable and experienced enough to take up a spot in a raid party.  And two, I'm not sure my DPS is acceptable.

Good or bad, that's the reality for me.  I suspect others as well.   As I have discovered, hard end game content is for elite players that have the skill and DPS to do it.  Survival of the fittest. 

DPS output is not all just about builds.  It's about play style and skill.  Some of us do fall through the cracks.  I guess I'd have to say that it's not fair for me to end up in a raid party that has to carry me.  So, while I loathe the idea of DPS meters in game, I understand the "rules of the jungle."

[Flasterko.4087]

Players in LOTRO also measure very often dps. And nope, I don't want from a game to be supported officially. I really hate those insecure boys that play only to brag about their high dps while in meantime they don't move from pools or help in any way to fellowship because their main goal is to be number 1 in dps. 

[mythical.6315]

3 hours ago, LadyKitty.6120 said:

People requiring LI+KP for Strikes and DRMs sounds weird

Some people require those in their groups in order to get competent players and have quick runs. The majority of players don’t even break 10K DPS which tends to cause content to drag on longer than necessary. I don’t believe that DRMs have those requirements as those who would even require them are better off doing them solo. 

[Ashgar.3024]

12 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

Then there’s something wrong on your end because if it were causing as many crashes, and as often as you seem to be expressing, there would be more complaints about it. Since there isn’t, then you have something set up wrong, you’re blaming it when the crashes are from something else, or you’re exaggerating. 

Its 2 files. If they're in my install folder i crash, if they are not i don't crash.

Not that super difficult to figure out.

Just can't see why people hold on to that relic rather than have an officially supported option that won't break the second Anet does something.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Griever.8150

[kharmin.7683]

23 minutes ago, Griever.8150 said:

Just can't see why people hold on to that relic rather than have an officially supported option that won't break the second Anet does something.

I already proposed a reason why....

5 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I was under the impression that many, if not a majority, of hard-core end-game players already use ARC.  Why would an official tool be needed at this point?  Is it really worth Anet's time and resources to develop a tool for a niche group of players when one already exists which meets with their approval?

 

[Linken.6345]

3 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

and just like ArcDPS, have the option to make the damage numbers dissapear or much smaller, many times i can't even see  the combat.  There are SO many floating damage numbers AND the condi numbers shooting up from the target. It's really too much and a big turn off.

options-general options then untick the checkbox

Show simple condition floaters to get rid of the multiple damage numbers.

[Ashgar.3024]

1 hour ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I already proposed a reason why....

 

By "niche group" you literally mean anyone that at any point ever stepped into a raid (people getting carried being the obvious exception here).

[kharmin.7683]

3 minutes ago, Griever.8150 said:

By "niche group" you literally mean anyone that at any point ever stepped into a raid (people getting carried being the obvious exception here).

Yeah, let's count those people who stepped in once.   🙄

You know what I meant.  It's hardly a secret that the raid community is a small fraction of the player base.

[Asum.4960]

On 11/1/2021 at 4:32 PM, Electra.7530 said:

I am in one of those conundrums where I have NEVER once succeeded in a party to complete a raid or kill even the first boss because, one, I'm not knowledgeable and experienced enough to take up a spot in a raid party.  And two, I'm not sure my DPS is acceptable.

Good or bad, that's the reality for me.  I suspect others as well.   As I have discovered, hard end game content is for elite players that have the skill and DPS to do it.  Survival of the fittest. 

DPS output is not all just about builds.  It's about play style and skill.  Some of us do fall through the cracks.  I guess I'd have to say that it's not fair for me to end up in a raid party that has to carry me.  So, while I loathe the idea of DPS meters in game, I understand the "rules of the jungle."

The sad reality is there are builds that almost pretty much just Auto Attack and do more than enough DPS (20-25k), by far, to hit every "DPS check" in- and beat pretty much any Raid encounter - but a great deal of GW2 players simply have no idea about those builds or how incredibly poor their performance ingame is to even think about sensible build choices or seeking out resources that can help them improve. 

 

You really, really don't have to be an "elite player" for content such as Raids, nor do you have to play them in a cut throat "survival of the fittest" environment. 

You can genuinely join together with a pretty casual and fun group, and given the right builds, willingness to learn the fights and the right mentality that wiping doesn't have to mean failure but that it's part of progression and learning - clear that content just fine while having a blast. 

 

And I think that's the frustration some people with DPS meter's feel, when they see players joining their group as DPS and then do 3k DPS and then get defensive and hostile when after a few wipes someone points out that they can't beat the content with that kind of DPS, convinced of themselves they are doing fine. You can't help but think, if you just were aware of your performance you could literally just find and pick up a build auto attacking and do >8 times DPS with no effort at all and we'd be fine. 

 

That's really the only reason I'd maybe want DPS meters in the hands of more players - for them to actually see "oh wow, I'm actually just doing 3k DPS, yet there are people here pulling 30k+, maybe there is a little I could change to at least improve somewhat and have a better time myself with the game, as well as for the benefit of everyone I play with" and getting inspired by that. 

It doesn't come from a place to make anyone feel bad about their performance or to lord any numbers over anyone else (and I'm not sure why some people always inscribe those intentions to DPS meter users, although tbf, I used to be scared of them too before giving them a shot myself)  - just that it could put the community in a better place by providing some more self awareness and discovering a great learning tool for themselves. 

 

The whole reason why we need KP and gatekeeping in GW2 is because you can't trust random players to perform reasonably by any margin. No one wants to gamble on a 3k DPS player joining or a >35k DPS player joining when looking for a DPS, so if the content demands some basic competency, you have to gate the group to increase your chances of getting a player closer to the latter. 

If more players were aware of the giant gap in performance between players and worked just a tiny bit on improvement (be it just changing their build for vast DPS gains, often for less effort), gating would become drastically less necessary, and this pointless and tiring chasm between "casual" and "hardcore" players in this community smaller.

 

*That's not to say everyone has to improve and be good at the game, but when playing in more demanding group content at least imo every participating player has a responsibility towards the other's in the group to not entirely waste their time, and it's unfortunate that while GW2 makes it incredibly easy to reach a more than enough baseline of performance, many are simply not aware that they are literally doing 1/10 of the DPS of others, crippling themselves and any group they join for no reason, and creating hostilities and a gatekeeping environment in the process.

I've seen many players over the years come to the forums or otherwise and complaining about "elitists" for kicking them from groups for lack of DPS, thinking they were maybe <1-2k, or just hundreds of, DPS behind and how that's toxic behavior by DPS meter Users - and it would be if that were the reality. But the matter of fact is I've never seen that happen ingame. Even in gated hardcore CM groups I'm frequently ahead by 5k DPS, in more casual group content by 10k, and I don't care, no one cares. That's still more than enough group DPS to clear the content just fine. But if someone joins as DPS and does >20-30k less DPS (performing around or even below full supports) and we literally can't hit phases, wipe, etc. then that's a problem - especially when they are not at all aware of their own (lack of) performance and get defensive if not hostile (or refuse to communicate entirely) when the issue is eventually brought up - that's generally where, for the sake of enjoyment for the rest of the group, kicks come in to play. 

That's where more information in the hands of more players imo isn't a bad thing, because GW2 by itself unfortunately is pretty bad about giving it's players feedback about their performance, esp. with how incredibly low Story and OW content are tuned to almost guaranty success no matter what (random gear, random traits, random button presses, you will get through everything), giving many the impression that they are doing just fine - which outside of that content just isn't the case.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Griever.8150 said:

Its 2 files. If they're in my install folder i crash, if they are not i don't crash.

Not that super difficult to figure out.

Just can't see why people hold on to that relic rather than have an officially supported option that won't break the second Anet does something.

Arc is only 1 file. If you have two, you have something besides it as well.

[AliamRationem.5172]

5 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

If you want an DPS meter, use Arc and open yourself up to all the risks that may come with an unsupported addon.

I don't want to see an official DPS meter in the game.

If anything in regards to DPS meters, Arenanet should do what FF14 does and make talking about others' DPS a reportable offense.

I think they need a high maintenance customer policy where they just ban anyone who reports over a matter as trivial as another player quoting your dps values.

[Wrain.6792]

NO,

those things just turn a game into mid/max and its terrible in EVERY game.

WoW a prime example.

 

[Khisanth.2948]

8 hours ago, Parasite.5389 said:

It's absolutely going to change the situation, it's going to make it worse.

We were already at "kicking for made up reasons". What would constitute worse?

[Ashgar.3024]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Arc is only 1 file. If you have two, you have something besides it as well.

The .md5sum that literally comes with it?

I guess its pointless but doubt its what's crashing me either.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Griever.8150

[Sobx.1758]

9 hours ago, Parasite.5389 said:

It's absolutely going to change the situation, it's going to make it worse.

Doubt.

(...because anyone that wants to kick people for reasons related to dps meters can already do it anyways. But maybe I'm misunderstanding something and you can explain how it would "absolutely make it worse")

Edited November 1, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Parasite.5389]

2 hours ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

We were already at "kicking for made up reasons". What would constitute worse?

 

50 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Doubt.

(...because anyone that wants to kick people for reasons related to dps meters can already do it anyways. But maybe I'm misunderstanding something and you can explain how it would "absolutely make it worse")

 

 

how many times do i have to say this?!

10 hours ago, Parasite.5389 said:

people seem to miss the part where i say " making a meter an official function of the game would just re-enforce the idea that this kind of behaviour is acceptable"

 

[Sobx.1758]

43 minutes ago, Parasite.5389 said:

how many times do i have to say this?!

[people seem to miss the part where i say " making a meter an official function of the game would just re-enforce the idea that this kind of behaviour is acceptable" ]

Ok, I don't see how that's true. There are already dps golems that let you estimate your dps numbers, how is this not re-inforcing the idea of having to optimize your dps builds?

It's just a tool that people can use, that's all. Many times I'm in groups with multiple people running arcdps (which becomes clear after multiple people respond to the question about dps when someone asks about it) and yet I've rarely see people getting kicked for playing/dpsing sub-optimally. Pretending that merely having dps meters = toxicity and kicking others for lower dps is wrong. It's dependant on the individual players using the tools and currently anyone wanting to kick people for bad dps already have that possibility and most probably already does it anyways.

 

And I'm not trying to push for some official dps meter here btw, just saying that trying to use a blanket statement like "dps meters = situation getting worse!" isn't correct. Anyone wanting to do that already does it.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Sobx.1758