The issue of stealth (and other oddly implemented mechanics)

[Dadnir.5038]

This isn't anything new but there are many games where:

- Stealth reduce movement speed (which is logic as you try to sneak around).

- Stealth can be seen throught as a "shade" if the stealthed character is wandering within a 300-450 cone in front of a character.

- Stealth is broken when an attack miss or is blocked.

Now, sure, one have to understand that stealth is a design pilar of the thief and touching the way it work can very well break the profession but... I don't think it would be that gamebreaking for the thief to have a stealth that have a few drawbacks like those few.

 

[hatozeni.5721]

It is in this thread that I ask you to:
Rangers' attack range is decreased.
Necro can no longer summon necro-dudes.
That they remove the armor and the long-sword of the warriors.
?????

This thread saddens me. We have at least 3 one-shot classes in the game but the problem is "the guy I can't see". I finally understand how Thanos annihilated half the universe. Marvel forgot to hire the invincible invisible man.

Edited November 14, 2021 by hatozeni.5721

[anjo.6143]

l2p issue

[Crab Fear.1624]

 

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[Lan Deathrider.5910]

On 11/12/2021 at 1:48 PM, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Remove Warrior Stances and ammo from shouts. 

That'll nerf Thief for sure.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

In all seriousness though if I hit a stealthed character I should see the damage floater. You'd know if a weapon met flesh if you swing into what looks like empty air.

[Rodzynald.5897]

I am somewhat amused by seeing how nowadays PvP players point out things I used to point out years back shortly after HoT launched and ranked was introduced. This is good, becasue I thought back then that I am being unreasonable with my observations, but it seems that more and more players appear to see some gut-wrenching design issues.

 

Sadly, we will see no such changes in GW2. It's core design and as far as we know Anet will not temper with core design - I assume this is because of spaghetti coding, lack of resources and flat out not wanting to do it in the first place. We have to deal with it, play around it or roll thieves ourselves.

On a more serious side, as a MMO PvP veteran I can wholeheartedly say that the rogue/thief/assassin archetype is usually challenging to play, but has hefty drawbacks for its demanding yet rewarding mechanics. In other games stealth has what stealth in GW2 lacks - drawbacks. I've heard of no other game that enables any sort of stealth ability without taking something in return, or at the very least granting one strong trait while taking away other (for instance permanent stealth for slower movement). The thing is, GW2 stealth gives you all the pros and no cons. Not to mention the rate with which some may re-apply stealth. In this case, sadly, it is a combat design thing. We can't have skills that are combat-locked, meaning that they can be used once in combat and will start to cooldown only after combat, or that have tremendously long cooldowns to actually label them as "last resort/last stand, situational". 

 

Those who had their deal of games can agree that stealth is supposed to be a tool to be timed and used well, not spammed and abused in order to wear down an enemy whilst they lack the counterplay for it save for well timed dodges - and that is if you have luck or inhuman reactions to dodge an instant teleport and burst out of stealth along a whole plethora of CCs thrown in for good measure. Yes, there is initiative mechanic which makes you choose whether to use the resource for burst, CC or mobility and stealth - but if it did its purpose we would not have this thread, and many others before it. WvW and PvP (especially WvW) shows how irredeemably forgiving stealth is should you make a mistake. You can re-apply it with no drawbacks, reset combat as you wish or break the flow of combat to decide when and how to attack. Basically, winning a fight with a stealth user (thief is not the only one guilty of that) depends on them making a mistake, not you outplaying them which, at least in my book, is a sign of bad design. If you plan your heart out with bursts and CC chains only to have it all for nothing because someone can disengage from combat twice or thrice as often than you can actually burst or time your crucial cooldowns, then know that something is not done properly, period.

 

Of course, the way mobility skills are implemented are also a considerable offender besides stealth, but that is an issue for a different thread in my opinon. 

 

To top it all off, powercreep did its thing. We know that when everyone is overpowered then nobody is, but it is not true in GW2's case. It's simply: some are overpowered better than others. Remember pre-HoT times of suffering ONLY cele ele builds. Remember and compare what it was like then and how it is now and you'll probably find and answer where did it all go so wrong, because stealth didn't seem to be THIS bad.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Rodzynald.5897

[lblazer.5381]

On 11/15/2021 at 1:32 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

This isn't anything new but there are many games where:

- Stealth reduce movement speed (which is logic as you try to sneak around).

- Stealth can be seen throught as a "shade" if the stealthed character is wandering within a 300-450 cone in front of a character.

- Stealth is broken when an attack miss or is blocked.

Now, sure, one have to understand that stealth is a design pilar of the thief and touching the way it work can very well break the profession but... I don't think it would be that gamebreaking for the thief to have a stealth that have a few drawbacks like those few.

 

Now this is the stealth wow thief has that i know before, restealth/disengage is limited not sure what others are saying wow has now

 

not sure in spvp but in wvw when a thief is contesting a WP it takes a few ppl to stop it, sometimes you just let it be cause a thief that wants to not get killed will not be killed

 

thief in gw2 in the hands of a good player you wont be able to kill it unless thief makes a mistake

[lblazer.5381]

On 11/16/2021 at 12:44 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

In all seriousness though if I hit a stealthed character I should see the damage floater. You'd know if a weapon met flesh if you swing into what looks like empty air.

you won't even see stealth attacks in combat log

if a player is fast enough

stealth attack, go stealth again, attack again

you'll never know/see why your HP go down

 

ppl mentioned attack from stealth will reveal you

but in wvw this is a problem like someone mentioned before it bugs out

after attacking in stealth you wont see them get revealed, it like stealthed class can dish out more than 3 skill dmg before you see them

[saerni.2584]

2 hours ago, lblazer.5381 said:

you won't even see stealth attacks in combat log

if a player is fast enough

stealth attack, go stealth again, attack again

you'll never know/see why your HP go down

 

ppl mentioned attack from stealth will reveal you

but in wvw this is a problem like someone mentioned before it bugs out

after attacking in stealth you wont see them get revealed, it like stealthed class can dish out more than 3 skill dmg before you see them

The animation for your auto attack chain will play if you hit, even if they are stealthed.

[Zekent.3652]

Op or not, the stealth spam of this game like trapper builds and SA thief is really uninteractive and unfun to play against.

[Shao.7236]

On 11/15/2021 at 11:44 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

In all seriousness though if I hit a stealthed character I should see the damage floater. You'd know if a weapon met flesh if you swing into what looks like empty air.

Ever since they changed Herald reveal to only work if characters are in stealth, the best way I ever had to deal with it is Jade Winds or Forced Engagement prior to them going into Stealth. Should CC reveal players? Perhaps, so much to be done.

[Argonil.6970]

What the blimey am I supposed to do about stealthed thieves in PvP when I can't see them, can't chase them and for the few seconds they're visible they spin around and evade all attacks? If they fully engaged me then I could probably win, but of course they don't, they restealth every few seconds until I'm dead without any chance of counterplay. When I see a thief, I give him the point I was capturing and move somewhere else, there's just no point trying. Fun!

I think thieves should be f*cking deleted. They don't contribute to making the game enjoyable, their only mission is to be annoying for the other players, often without fighting at all. How can you look at that and say it belongs in the game?

Edited December 25, 2021 by Argonil.6970

[Morwath.9817]

22 minutes ago, Argonil.6970 said:

What the blimey am I supposed to do about stealthed thieves in PvP when I can't see them, can't chase them and for the few seconds they're visible they spin around and evade all attacks? If they fully engaged me then I could probably win, but of course they don't, they restealth every few seconds until I'm dead without any chance of counterplay. When I see a thief, I give him the point I was capturing and move somewhere else, there's just no point trying. Fun!

I think thieves should be f*cking deleted. They don't contribute to making the game enjoyable, their only mission is to be annoying for the other players, often without fighting at all. How can you look at that and say it belongs in the game?

 

You win with Thief by wasting his time dueling you.

[Argonil.6970]

1 minute ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

You win with Thief by wasting his time dueling you.

That's a zero-sum game at best. You waste your time too, except you'll die eventually from his stealth attacks, and he will probably get decap.

[Morwath.9817]

16 minutes ago, Argonil.6970 said:

That's a zero-sum game at best. You waste your time too, except you'll die eventually from his stealth attacks, and he will probably get decap.

Each tick gives you a point. Thief killing you gets only 5 points. His main purpose in team is mobility, so he can fast travel between empty nodes to cap/decap them or join fights allowing his team to outnumber enemies. If you can stop him from doing that, he loses his purpose.

[Argonil.6970]

9 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

Each tick gives you a point. Thief killing you gets only 5 points. His main purpose in team is mobility, so he can fast travel between empty nodes to cap/decap them or join fights allowing his team to outnumber enemies. If you can stop him from doing that, he loses his purpose.

But it doesn't just go like that. You die from his attacks which you can't defend yourself from, he probably gets decap, and even if you succeed at wasting his time, you're not having fun. They're annoying, period.

[saerni.2584]

A side noder build should be able to sustain versus a thief long enough to get reinforcements and force the thief to leave. 
 

If you aren't a side noder build then I have to ask why are you sitting on a single point and letting them hit and run you to death? 
 

You should also sometimes let the enemy get the decap. If you waste enough of their time you can recapture pretty easily after they leave, because they will be hard pressed to support their team after spending so much time on one decap. You don't need to stand on point to make that decap low value (the thief wants to decap and then +1 other fights leaving the node uncapped for a while, recapping it almost immediately reduces the value of a decap by a lot and splits their attention away from +1).

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

 

Quote

I think thieves should be f*cking deleted. They don't contribute to making the game enjoyable, their only mission is to be annoying for the other players, often without fighting at all. How can you look at that and say it belongs in the game?

They may not be fun to fight, but they are not unfair. Otherwise, teams with thieves wouldnt fall apart if there was more than one of them at any point. Be careful when attempting to balance around fun. Everyone has a different idea of what is fun, and yours is infinitely at odds with everyone elses if you look closely enough. Instead of this ^ :

On 12/25/2021 at 1:12 PM, Argonil.6970 said:

What the blimey am I supposed to do about stealthed thieves in PvP when I can't see them, can't chase them and for the few seconds they're visible they spin around and evade all attacks?

Focus on this^, because the answer is "quite a bit.". Have you made a thief? They are surprisingly brittle and require a heavy time investment to learn to play properly. A thief that is annoying is the only flavor apart from one that is dead, so first: make a thief and go duel with it so you can learn their cooldowns and what they tend to run, then use that info when fighting them.

Quote

If they fully engaged me then I could probably win, but of course they don't, they restealth every few seconds until I'm dead without any chance of counterplay.

Three things about this.

1.) Winning vs a thief is not downing them. 

2.) if a thief is contesting a point sidenode, every second they spend in stealth with the point not neutral is wasted time (as in, if they are fighting you sidenode, every second you keep them there without the point at the very least becoming neutral is you hurting their team.)

3.) Thieves cannot really fight 1v1 in this meta vs players that know how to fight them. Because they rely on stealth to protect their health pool, they waste time fighting people in places where they cannot close the fight quickly, because the stealth threading makes it hard for them to cap while actively in combat, and map will announce that they are on the node if they are in combat. 

If a thief lays into you 1v1 in pvp on node, then continues to do it, it is because that thief pressed you to see if they could close out fights vs you 1v1 fast enough to benefit their team, found out the answer was "yes" (likely due to you being glass or allowing free hits), and now will do that for the rest of the game because they can -1 your team AND cap. That says less about the thief's kit, and more about you not being able to keep presence on the point for long enough that the thief reconsiders visiting while you are there. When a thief goes anywhere on the map, they have to think about making sure they are benefiting their team when they do it, because otherwise the game is 4v5. 
You do not need to down a thief to be effective, though that is always nice. The only win condition is to either chase the thief off point by being tanky, or live long enough that one of your friends can make it from mid to sides. 

Make a  thief. see what it's like.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Genesis.5169]

On 12/25/2021 at 2:06 PM, Argonil.6970 said:

But it doesn't just go like that. You die from his attacks which you can't defend yourself from, he probably gets decap, and even if you succeed at wasting his time, you're not having fun. They're annoying, period.

No YOU die from his attacks and YOU let the thief get the decap, and YOUR not having fun because you succeeded in fending of the thief.

Stop. Projecting. Your. Horrible. Skill. Level. And. Gameplay.
Just because you think everyone sucks at the game doesn't mean they do, and just because you have a hard time fighting thieves does not mean everyone does.

Have any of you guys ever wondered how other people make it to atleast g2?
You think people in p1+ die or run away from every thief they encounter?
If other people can deal with thief and you can't the only constant here is YOU.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

Stealth is good for the game, as it adds tactical depth and variety.

But it must come in small doses, and with clear trade-offs - i.e. ranger longbow and initiative-based stealth stacking.

[Brandon Uzumaki.1524]

Stealth is so broken and annoying that if we had a "no stealth weekend", were every stance of going invisible was replaced by immunity to all damage i 100% believe that Thieves would be far easier and less annoying to fight lol, "oh no, he's immune to damage", but at least i see him and can prepare myself accordingly for when the immunity ends, kinda like when Guardians, Rangers, Wars use their no damage skills.

[Sindrener.1592]

Buff thief

[saerni.2584]

1 hour ago, bluri.2653 said:

Buff thief

Quality content. 
 

Honestly if they let thieves access our stealth attacks through a F3 type skill, on a 4 second cooldown, but removed stealth people would still be dying left and right and crying for nerfs.

 

Looking at all the people throwing target painters in WvW and still losing 2v1 versus a thief....

[Bazsi.2734]

On 12/28/2021 at 2:14 PM, Brandon Uzumaki.1524 said:

Stealth is so broken and annoying that if we had a "no stealth weekend", were every stance of going invisible was replaced by immunity to all damage i 100% believe that Thieves would be far easier and less annoying to fight lol, "oh no, he's immune to damage", but at least i see him and can prepare myself accordingly for when the immunity ends, kinda like when Guardians, Rangers, Wars use their no damage skills.

Good april 1st idea. Stack 10+ seconds of stealth invulnerability, tank the teamfight for eternity. Every class could get a mechanic inverted and made more powerful like this. Mesmers shattering an army of clones into existence to heal themselves, warriors losing adrenalin by landing hits to avoid "adrenal overheat", rangers releasing pets into the wild for a stat boost etc.
It could be a special gamemode, the "fools arena" or something. Most of the balance ideas this forum comes up could find their way into it.