August 23 Balance Update Preview

[erapago.4387]

I wish I could hug you right now, @Josh Davis.7865. Great leadership and ownership. Love it!

[felix.2386]

1 hour ago, Josh Davis.7865 said:

Hi all,

The June 28 update highlighted that our approach to balancing professions and combat in Guild Wars 2 has not been fully aligned with the needs and expectations of our community. As we communicated in several posts over the last month and a half, we’re using this an opportunity to take a hard look at our internal processes and revise the Guild Wars 2 balance philosophy. We also added some new leaders into the team to help facilitate that effort. That work is still ongoing, and we look forward to sharing our updated balance philosophy with you as soon as we can.

As we’ve been reading through your feedback on the August 23 preview, it became clear to us that one aspect of the previous balance approach was especially problematic. Specifically, making balance adjustments to PvE builds based on their potential under unrealistic, ideal conditions – conditions that are unlikely to be met unless you’re testing against a golem, or the player is extremely skilled. While these builds can definitely be an issue in a skilled player’s hands, often times the changes have an outsized impact to unrelated builds and average players. With that in mind, we’ll be reverting the changes to mirage in the August 23 update.

This change in approach raises questions about previous changes that were made with a build’s ‘potential’ in mind, rather than the realistic output. We’ll be evaluating those prior changes on a case-by-case basis in future releases. This isn’t to say that we won’t address overperforming builds in the future, but we will focus more on builds that are dominating the meta, rather than builds that could theoretically dominate.

For reference, these are the mirage changes that are being removed from the August 23 update:

Axe:

·         Lingering Thoughts: (PvE only) Torment duration reduced from 4s to 3s.

·         Imaginary Axes: (PvE only) Torment duration reduced from 4s to 3s.

Staff:

·         Chaos Vortex (Staff Ambush) (PvE only) Might stack count reduced from 8 to 5, Might duration reduced from 15s to 10s. Torment, Bleeding, and Confusion duration reduced from 8s to 7s.

Thanks,

Josh

when will you start fixing warrior.

your new philosophy is going to screw warrior even harder, because after 3 elite spec, you still treat warrior as this simple class that can not press more then 3 buttons.

not a single one of 3 elite specs have very high skill ceiling.

Edited August 19, 2022 by felix.2386

[Agrios.1957]

1 hour ago, Josh Davis.7865 said:

conditions that are unlikely to be met unless you’re testing against a golem, or the player is extremely skilled.

I'm glad the company is finally realizing that when you aim at nerfing a class based on the top 0.03% of players' skill level, the fallout hit us, normal players, like a truck. Just realize that these beasts will always exist and they will always overperform.

[prototypedragon.1406]

Still quite curious though shall they revert the cc damage back giving. Specific weapons damage once again for wvw?🤔

Edited August 19, 2022 by prototypedragon.1406

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Josh Davis.7865 said:

Hi all,

The June 28 update highlighted that our approach to balancing professions and combat in Guild Wars 2 has not been fully aligned with the needs and expectations of our community. As we communicated in several posts over the last month and a half, we’re using this an opportunity to take a hard look at our internal processes and revise the Guild Wars 2 balance philosophy. We also added some new leaders into the team to help facilitate that effort. That work is still ongoing, and we look forward to sharing our updated balance philosophy with you as soon as we can.

As we’ve been reading through your feedback on the August 23 preview, it became clear to us that one aspect of the previous balance approach was especially problematic. Specifically, making balance adjustments to PvE builds based on their potential under unrealistic, ideal conditions – conditions that are unlikely to be met unless you’re testing against a golem, or the player is extremely skilled. While these builds can definitely be an issue in a skilled player’s hands, often times the changes have an outsized impact to unrelated builds and average players. With that in mind, we’ll be reverting the changes to mirage in the August 23 update.

This change in approach raises questions about previous changes that were made with a build’s ‘potential’ in mind, rather than the realistic output. We’ll be evaluating those prior changes on a case-by-case basis in future releases. This isn’t to say that we won’t address overperforming builds in the future, but we will focus more on builds that are dominating the meta, rather than builds that could theoretically dominate.

For reference, these are the mirage changes that are being removed from the August 23 update:

Axe:

·         Lingering Thoughts: (PvE only) Torment duration reduced from 4s to 3s.

·         Imaginary Axes: (PvE only) Torment duration reduced from 4s to 3s.

Staff:

·         Chaos Vortex (Staff Ambush) (PvE only) Might stack count reduced from 8 to 5, Might duration reduced from 15s to 10s. Torment, Bleeding, and Confusion duration reduced from 8s to 7s.

Thanks,

Josh

I'm glad to hear you'll be focusing on classes that are dominating the meta.  So power mechanist when?

[prototypedragon.1406]

Should over performance for a class within the class itself be the desired end goal for those to achieve as long as the over performance is based on the entirety of those that use the class in of itself and put in the effort to master the class if it is their choice to do so?🤔

[Jokuc.3478]

2 hours ago, Josh Davis.7865 said:

Hi all,

The June 28 update highlighted that our approach to balancing professions and combat in Guild Wars 2 has not been fully aligned with the needs and expectations of our community. As we communicated in several posts over the last month and a half, we’re using this an opportunity to take a hard look at our internal processes and revise the Guild Wars 2 balance philosophy. We also added some new leaders into the team to help facilitate that effort. That work is still ongoing, and we look forward to sharing our updated balance philosophy with you as soon as we can.

As we’ve been reading through your feedback on the August 23 preview, it became clear to us that one aspect of the previous balance approach was especially problematic. Specifically, making balance adjustments to PvE builds based on their potential under unrealistic, ideal conditions – conditions that are unlikely to be met unless you’re testing against a golem, or the player is extremely skilled. While these builds can definitely be an issue in a skilled player’s hands, often times the changes have an outsized impact to unrelated builds and average players. With that in mind, we’ll be reverting the changes to mirage in the August 23 update.

This change in approach raises questions about previous changes that were made with a build’s ‘potential’ in mind, rather than the realistic output. We’ll be evaluating those prior changes on a case-by-case basis in future releases. This isn’t to say that we won’t address overperforming builds in the future, but we will focus more on builds that are dominating the meta, rather than builds that could theoretically dominate.

For reference, these are the mirage changes that are being removed from the August 23 update:

Axe:

·         Lingering Thoughts: (PvE only) Torment duration reduced from 4s to 3s.

·         Imaginary Axes: (PvE only) Torment duration reduced from 4s to 3s.

Staff:

·         Chaos Vortex (Staff Ambush) (PvE only) Might stack count reduced from 8 to 5, Might duration reduced from 15s to 10s. Torment, Bleeding, and Confusion duration reduced from 8s to 7s.

Thanks,

Josh

bruh this is the best thing I read about gw2 since the reveal that we'd get a 4th expansion

I did not expect this but am happily surprised. Obviously a 70k dps build isn't healthy for the game even if it's hard to play, but to some extent there needs to be room for these kind of builds to shine even if it means in some cases outperforming other builds in the hands of highly experienced players. While I completely understand that anet doesn't want some builds to be too strong even in theory, at some point it becomes unfair to balance them around this fact. Mirage falls into this category.

I am curious what this means for the future of balance. I'm sure there'll be a few people opposed to this but if you ask me, this is  the right decision.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Jokuc.3478

[Sheff.4851]

Between the note about Firebrand changes, and this, I'm excited that Anet has finally gotten a clear vision for how to balance professions going forward, and are willing to communicate it to players and change it based on feedback. I don't think that's always been true. Looking forward to what the changes look like when they go live -- having some more class diversity in PvE and WvW would be refreshing.

[Evenaardez.7913]

This is the communication we want! Grouch yes, this is the way! Don’t be afraid to admit mistakes! We are all for this, this is how you lead!

[mirage.8046]

I'm really really glad anet is realizing the answer isn't to balance around a minority. Builds that extremely skilled players use should not be punished just because some players are good at said builds; it almost always hurts the majority. Mirage wasn't hurting any other condi builds nor was it overperforming. And as alacmirage (not the staff + axe variant), you already do less DPS than other condi builds.

Besides that, I wish mesmer's scepter got looked at. A weapon with hardly any use on virtuoso other than generating blades and the block + evade. Oh yeah, make staff skill 3 literally do anything else other than generate vulnerability. How about some chaos like ripping/corrupting boons off foes or turning allies conditions' into boons? 

[prototypedragon.1406]

I wouldn't hold my mystic coins till they hatch given how banners first were changed. I know  stuff won't be a perfect fit balance or needs wise at first. But it's one thing to say that they shall stick with the vision they want to share with us and improve with us. But after 10 years at least from the wvw standpoint alot must be brought forth balance wise before hope can be fully established. So until more is continually done I'd hold my breath.

[pallas.8150]

I'm glad that Josh has finally gotten the memo it takes more than 2k hours on Firebrand, buffing Mechanist ridiculously, and reading the GW2 wiki to understand Ranger skills to balance professions correctly. Bravo.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Josh Davis.7865 said:

Hi all,

The June 28 update highlighted that our approach to balancing professions and combat in Guild Wars 2 has not been fully aligned with the needs and expectations of our community. As we communicated in several posts over the last month and a half, we’re using this an opportunity to take a hard look at our internal processes and revise the Guild Wars 2 balance philosophy. We also added some new leaders into the team to help facilitate that effort. That work is still ongoing, and we look forward to sharing our updated balance philosophy with you as soon as we can.

As we’ve been reading through your feedback on the August 23 preview, it became clear to us that one aspect of the previous balance approach was especially problematic. Specifically, making balance adjustments to PvE builds based on their potential under unrealistic, ideal conditions – conditions that are unlikely to be met unless you’re testing against a golem, or the player is extremely skilled. While these builds can definitely be an issue in a skilled player’s hands, often times the changes have an outsized impact to unrelated builds and average players. With that in mind, we’ll be reverting the changes to mirage in the August 23 update.

This change in approach raises questions about previous changes that were made with a build’s ‘potential’ in mind, rather than the realistic output. We’ll be evaluating those prior changes on a case-by-case basis in future releases. This isn’t to say that we won’t address overperforming builds in the future, but we will focus more on builds that are dominating the meta, rather than builds that could theoretically dominate.

For reference, these are the mirage changes that are being removed from the August 23 update:

Axe:

·         Lingering Thoughts: (PvE only) Torment duration reduced from 4s to 3s.

·         Imaginary Axes: (PvE only) Torment duration reduced from 4s to 3s.

Staff:

·         Chaos Vortex (Staff Ambush) (PvE only) Might stack count reduced from 8 to 5, Might duration reduced from 15s to 10s. Torment, Bleeding, and Confusion duration reduced from 8s to 7s.

Thanks,

Josh

Grouch, I'm really glad you all are seeing this and are going to reevaluate prior nerfed traits, skills, and utilities. Would it be at all possible for this new approach also be applied to the competitive game modes? Specifically the 300s CD traits and the complete gutting of hard CC damage? These two changes hurt some classes more than others. I realize that the Balance team is okay if damage on hard CC is okay in competitive if a trait is taken for it, don't you all think it would be fair and balanced if each profession had a core trait that allowed for this? Specifically for power damage?

Thanks for all the hard work mate.

[MuscleBobBuffPants.1406]

2 hours ago, Josh Davis.7865 said:

The June 28 update highlighted that our approach to balancing professions and combat in Guild Wars 2 has not been fully aligned with the needs and expectations of our community. As we communicated in several posts over the last month and a half, we’re using this an opportunity to take a hard look at our internal processes and revise the Guild Wars 2 balance philosophy. We also added some new leaders into the team to help facilitate that effort. That work is still ongoing, and we look forward to sharing our updated balance philosophy with you as soon as we can.

 

This paragraph alone is more reassuring than any time or damage adjustment on skills.  The philosophy is crucial to everything moving forward.  It allows us to see the roadmap, goals, the thoughts and provide feedback to it as well in terms of actual numbers feedback and philosophy feedback.  The community wouldn't be here if we didn't care about the game and want it to succeed.  If the game succeeds, then ArenaNet and it's staff as well as it's players are happy. 

[vardeleanu.8972]

Really good changes, one of the best patches so far. 

However, there are 2 things I disagree with : med kit nerfs and revenant hammer buffs

I believe nerfing core, holosmith and especially scrapper support because mech is overperforming is tradition at this point, but it isn't great for balance.

 

Revenant hammer still has the issue where the 2n'd skill won't hit any enemy closer than 300 units unless they have a massive hitbox, and the weapon is so extremely slow and low damaging even for a ranged weapon with only 1 cc ability to compensate, that I don't think those minor damage buffs come even close to fixing anything. If you want to improve the new player experience you might want to fix high impact bugs like that before improving the dps of skills that don't even work.

 

On the positive side, it's truly exciting to see these changes, especially the elementalist, ranger and all the hammer changes, even if it took 4 years for these patches to come out, with community having to meme and faintly remind you that core ele, pets, and hammers do still actually exist every year.

[Miraweave.5934]

2 hours ago, Josh Davis.7865 said:

This change in approach raises questions about previous changes that were made with a build’s ‘potential’ in mind, rather than the realistic output. We’ll be evaluating those prior changes on a case-by-case basis in future releases. This isn’t to say that we won’t address overperforming builds in the future, but we will focus more on builds that are dominating the meta, rather than builds that could theoretically dominate.

 

This is very nice to see, really hoping it means some adjustments to previous Elementalist nerfs. Catalyst is obviously the example fresh in everyone's minds, but honestly the class as a whole has been suffering from this issue of being balanced around theoretical top tier performance leaving it not worth playing over other classes in most situations.

 

I'd love to see weaver get some love to justify it being a melee spec with a complex and fragile rotation that brings basically nothing other than damage to the table someday. If not on the DPS front, it'd at least be nice to have relevant utility to bring to a fight.

[LyraOrpheo.8450]

The future of this game is BRIGHT

[ZolracAtrox.2908]

I'm ok with  most of PvE changes but:

PVE

I see some problems; nerfing core skills in order to nerf a spec is always a bad idea.

For example:

Mech is strong 'cause MECH; nerfing core engi support skills gonna kill Scrapper more than Mech. Nerf the spec, not all the specs. 

PVP

Please; fix PvP. Almost all EoD need a nerf; don't let us with another month with this broken meta, please.

     SPECS that need huge nerfs:

*Power Bladesworn

*Pow Catalyst:

*Rifle Mechanist:

*Condi Druid/Soulbeast/Untamed

     SPECS that need some nerfs:

*Power Untamed:

Power *Willbender

*Condi Specter:

*Condi Harbinger: 

*Grenade Holosmith:

*Core Support Guard/Tempest Support

     SPECS that need buffs:

Firebrand (Not support)

Scourge

Scrapper 

Renegade

Dragon Hunter

Almost all core classes (Rev, Ranger, Engi, Mesmer, Necro, Ele)

Edited August 19, 2022 by ZolracAtrox.2908

[Monchichi.9301]

4 hours ago, Josh Davis.7865 said:

Hi all,

The June 28 update highlighted that our approach to balancing professions and combat in Guild Wars 2 has not been fully aligned with the needs and expectations of our community. As we communicated in several posts over the last month and a half, we’re using this an opportunity to take a hard look at our internal processes and revise the Guild Wars 2 balance philosophy. We also added some new leaders into the team to help facilitate that effort. That work is still ongoing, and we look forward to sharing our updated balance philosophy with you as soon as we can.

As we’ve been reading through your feedback on the August 23 preview, it became clear to us that one aspect of the previous balance approach was especially problematic. Specifically, making balance adjustments to PvE builds based on their potential under unrealistic, ideal conditions – conditions that are unlikely to be met unless you’re testing against a golem, or the player is extremely skilled. While these builds can definitely be an issue in a skilled player’s hands, often times the changes have an outsized impact to unrelated builds and average players. With that in mind, we’ll be reverting the changes to mirage in the August 23 update.

This change in approach raises questions about previous changes that were made with a build’s ‘potential’ in mind, rather than the realistic output. We’ll be evaluating those prior changes on a case-by-case basis in future releases. This isn’t to say that we won’t address overperforming builds in the future, but we will focus more on builds that are dominating the meta, rather than builds that could theoretically dominate.

For reference, these are the mirage changes that are being removed from the August 23 update:

Axe:

·         Lingering Thoughts: (PvE only) Torment duration reduced from 4s to 3s.

·         Imaginary Axes: (PvE only) Torment duration reduced from 4s to 3s.

Staff:

·         Chaos Vortex (Staff Ambush) (PvE only) Might stack count reduced from 8 to 5, Might duration reduced from 15s to 10s. Torment, Bleeding, and Confusion duration reduced from 8s to 7s.

Thanks,

Josh

 

Thank you so much for cancelling the Mirage changes! And thank you for the balance philosophy update. It's wonderful that you and the team are listening. This back and forth, the wonderful community and the tons of content really makes it feel like this game as a bright future even after 10 years. 

[Monchichi.9301]

4 hours ago, Josh Davis.7865 said:

Hi all,

The June 28 update highlighted that our approach to balancing professions and combat in Guild Wars 2 has not been fully aligned with the needs and expectations of our community. As we communicated in several posts over the last month and a half, we’re using this an opportunity to take a hard look at our internal processes and revise the Guild Wars 2 balance philosophy. We also added some new leaders into the team to help facilitate that effort. That work is still ongoing, and we look forward to sharing our updated balance philosophy with you as soon as we can.

As we’ve been reading through your feedback on the August 23 preview, it became clear to us that one aspect of the previous balance approach was especially problematic. Specifically, making balance adjustments to PvE builds based on their potential under unrealistic, ideal conditions – conditions that are unlikely to be met unless you’re testing against a golem, or the player is extremely skilled. While these builds can definitely be an issue in a skilled player’s hands, often times the changes have an outsized impact to unrelated builds and average players. With that in mind, we’ll be reverting the changes to mirage in the August 23 update.

This change in approach raises questions about previous changes that were made with a build’s ‘potential’ in mind, rather than the realistic output. We’ll be evaluating those prior changes on a case-by-case basis in future releases. This isn’t to say that we won’t address overperforming builds in the future, but we will focus more on builds that are dominating the meta, rather than builds that could theoretically dominate.

For reference, these are the mirage changes that are being removed from the August 23 update:

Axe:

·         Lingering Thoughts: (PvE only) Torment duration reduced from 4s to 3s.

·         Imaginary Axes: (PvE only) Torment duration reduced from 4s to 3s.

Staff:

·         Chaos Vortex (Staff Ambush) (PvE only) Might stack count reduced from 8 to 5, Might duration reduced from 15s to 10s. Torment, Bleeding, and Confusion duration reduced from 8s to 7s.

Thanks,

Josh

 

Thank you so much for cancelling the Mirage changes! And thank you for the balance philosophy update. It's wonderful that you and the team are listening. This back and forth, the wonderful community and the tons of content really makes it feel like this game as a bright future even after 10 years. 

[Zaxares.5419]

4 hours ago, stuvvo.4753 said:

I hope you guys consider adding stablility to "Glyph of Equality" without needing to enter celetstial avatar in regards to the ranger.

I'd prefer it if Nature Spirit could get its pulsing Stability back. They can remove the pulsing heal (it honestly heals too little to really make a difference in most fights anyway), and maybe have it pulse 3s of 1 stack of Stability every 5 seconds (so if you trait enough into BD, you can grant your sub-group a permanent stack of Stability similar to Mechanist). The tradeoff between choosing between Nature Spirit or Glyph of Equality would then be "do you need low, but constant Stability because the encounter is throwing small, but regular CC at you? Or do you need a big bunch of Stability because of a short window in which a lot of CC is thrown at you?"

[tekmo.3076]

Thanks to the team for being so transparent and open with comms and listening to what the wider player base is saying. Keep up the awesome work guys!

[Hesione.9412]

4 hours ago, Bunny.9834 said:

This is great Grouch. Feedbacks like are very reassuring to the player base. 

Now please take a look at the AFK 30k AA Mech build. Thanks. 

You mean the 26K on a stationary golem with no defiance bar, that has every condition and I have every buff?

Or do you mean the 11K version on a stationary golem that has no conditions except the ones I give it, and I only have my own buffs?

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Sweet.  Now, about that -10% damage on Spectacular Sphere...

[Tenal.1546]

On 8/11/2022 at 9:59 AM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

We'd like to hear your feedback on this. Please take today and the weekend to read through it, think it over, and share your thoughts. We'll be keeping an eye on the conversation and listening to what you have to say.

Dear Anet,

I realize that this will not be possible with this update. However, in future updates would you please consider restoring not all but some workable portion of a few professions' self-sustain abilities which you nerfed last Spring a great deal.

I am for myself speaking primarily of Necro Parasitic Contagion in the Curses tree, Necro perhaps some bit of Barrier increase in the Scourge line, Thief Invigorating Precision in the Critical Strikes tree and in Revenant all 3/3/3 under the Devastation trait line though I realize a Power build can now and will deal some massive burst.

NO, I am not even going to mention Torment Runes. They as many gamers knew were quite "broken" though in my opinion, you didn't need to nerf them into the utter dust. Regardless they can still serve a very good purpose with a variety of builds on a number of professions.

Not asking you to do this because I am lazy or want "GOD MODE." I understand your desire to bring the community together to do things, but sometimes a person just wants to solo doing some semi-hard content which YES, I know there are many work around builds. Some of which just do not work for me.

I am not that great of a player anymore, and I do have some health conditions which make my left hand  dancing all over the keyboard rather difficult at best and impossible at worst. There are quite a few others like me, and I for one appreciate the "LI" builds that many players have shared in various platforms to possibly help out with such.

I have fully read the notes, and I understand (with my playable professions) some of the upcoming changes might make self-sustain not quite as important.

I would just ask you to consider in the future giving some "love" to various professions' self-sustain traits that you in some cases made useless. Anyway, you did ask for our opinions. I gave one of mine.

I look forward to the new update, and I wish you the very best of luck with your Steam integration.

Best Regards,

Ten

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Tenal.1546
Typos