Scrapper Rebalance

[Sugar Min.5834]

On 9/17/2022 at 8:45 AM, HazyDaisy.4107 said:

I stopped reading after this point in the notes.

 

Every danged time I get hooked on a spec and start playing it danged near exclusively in WvW, EVERY DANGED TIME it gets nerfed, with seemingly unintelligible reasoning one some of the changes.  EVERY SINGLE DANGED TIME, For 10 years straight now, WHY?

IKR? This is why I stopped reading their so called 'balance' patch notes long ago. They are depressing. It's always nerfs, nerfs, nerfs and more nerfs in the name of balance.

Edited September 18, 2022 by MintyMin.2718

[Junkpile.7439]

Min maxer gaming life is so hard. They always nerf my build which i copied from interweb. 🤥

[Dawdler.8521]

5 hours ago, Junkpile.7439 said:

Min maxer gaming life is so hard. They always nerf my build which i copied from interweb. 🤥

But people say that that builds available on metabattle/gw2mists/guildjen has no bearing on what builds are *achtually* used ingame, how is this possible?!?!

Unless you mean incoming nerf to meta condi plaguedoctor zerg support deadeye of course.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Sahne.6950]

On 9/17/2022 at 2:45 AM, HazyDaisy.4107 said:

I stopped reading after this point in the notes.

 

Every danged time I get hooked on a spec and start playing it danged near exclusively in WvW, EVERY DANGED TIME it gets nerfed, with seemingly unintelligible reasoning one some of the changes.  EVERY SINGLE DANGED TIME, For 10 years straight now, WHY?

why?

i mean... i can only guess.... but....mayyyybe, because you are always picking a overperforming class?

 

[Zaret.1450]

On 9/16/2022 at 9:57 PM, Malus.2184 said:

This seems to have been the thought process, "Okay, Sneak Gyro is an issue. Instead of dealing with the Sneak Gyro we're just going to make everything so useless that no one will ever play Scrapper in PvP again."

Everythjing that was unique about the Scrapper is now an inferior version of something that another Profession can provide better. Other than the Sneak Gyro what reason is there to even waste a space in a WvW sqwquad for one when Firebrand can do everything that a Scapper can so much better?

Unless the the Quickness of the Firebrand is now also a zone left behind when people move forward, as well as their sources of Stab. The list goes on. Undo this, please, as this will make Scrappers t otally unviable as support because of the Sneak Gyro.

i think sneak gyro would be the last of our problems, getting stealth is most effective when your enemies havent seen you or cant realy tell the exact moment you enter stealth, also the giros were also used as smoke fields, while its true that theyre nerfed theyre still plenty usefull for certain uses, the true problem comes from other utility gyros like the cleanse one, where now you realy cant use it as much as before because people will prob just go running and you get less utility from a static cleanse, on the other hand dps giro is better now as it works as a ranged well.

also its true that scrapper was dominating with fb too much, getting fb stab mantra and gyros nerfed will help other classes find a spot, and we can allwais wait a bit for more balances, they did an overall good job in this one so lets see

[Money.7218]

they did well, in wvw this class is so broken(too much broken things)

and in pvp nobody played it(because it's boring as kitten)

 

maybe with the change people will find decent build to play

[HazyDaisy.4107]

13 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

why?

i mean... i can only guess.... but....mayyyybe, because you are always picking a overperforming class?

 

Try again, mine was a roaming build as was all my previous nerfed classes. 

 

But you know what, if this change makes it harder for the zergs and they have to throw a few more other specs in there just to be able to continue to flip sentries, camps, undefened keeps and the occasional swarm of 5 roamers then more power to them, wish them the best ❤️

[Aeolus.3615]

9 hours ago, HazyDaisy.4107 said:

Try again, mine was a roaming build as was all my previous nerfed classes. 

 

But you know what, if this change makes it harder for the zergs and they have to throw a few more other specs in there just to be able to continue to flip sentries, camps, undefened keeps and the occasional swarm of 5 roamers then more power to them, wish them the best ❤️

That's actually the billion dollar question, will players add way more scrappers or scourges to the field since now some key wells wont carry the zerg or will players go for another way of diversification of classes.

Celestial Vindicator due tree song tends to be a decent melee suporter, if using ventari trait its leaps will condi cleanse and now they will have 2 leaps  as well and gain more energy to more leaps when clearing condis from alies,  while using jalis for party damage reduction and stability carpet with a decent big heal that self cleanses, in theory sounds a decent build.

Celestial/misntrells  druids plus cele vindi seams a decent adition to the gameplay rather be the same old 3 classes in minstrels stats and nothing more is needed.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[TheGrimm.5624]

Use my Scrapper to more roam and havoc, less as a zerg support though it would work fine there. The change is what it is an will adapt but I think the part that's been bugging me is the generalizing the differences in game play and unique feel of classes. The point of Elites is to be similar but have unique play styles and this just feels like, make is a 'Necro-Lite'. (Yes play Necros too) Can see how it will change zerg play and add more stop and stacking bites. Will feel worse as a roamer/havoc that are also chaotic fights. The reason you see less roamer Scourges is because if need be the tactic is just get out of the well. The Scrappers will start to move to the same category.  It also feels like ANet thinks not enough Scrappers moved to Mechanists so its a further push where Scrapper's felt better in their ability to assist w/ Condi cleanses and that's a good reason to stick with the in your face Scrapper versus range it out on the Mech. Have 4 engis so I try and leave some in each of the types and bounce around them when playing. Almost wonder if the gyros would feel better with this change to be made into an ammo style skill so it can retain more of a fluid play style in both larger and smaller scale play. Would keep in a well style play but keep some of the current feel of the Elite without just making it a Necro with a hammer.

[Xenesis.6389]

Sorry Grimm but I disagree. Every class/spec is not suppose to be good at every role, some are better for roaming, some better for support, some better for dps, some better for utility, while core traits are suppose to fill in the additional blanks for those roles. Scourge is meant to be a group spec, not a roamer spec, yes you can roam with it(I use to do it), but it's obviously easier on reaper or harbinger. And for all the complaints about running out of wells, scourge got nerfed probably close to a dozen times because people wouldn't walk out of their aoes 🤷‍♂️ The lazy boon ball expects to just run over everything and have no fear for anything on the grounds because superspeed, cleanse and convert, shields.

 

And I keep seeing these arguments for scrapper, well this mechanic doesn't work on this other class so we shouldn't have it either!  So in other words scrappers who are already godly in support shouldn't be subjected to skill difficulties of other classes? Other classes have to deal with target wells, some additional skill and precision and prediction will be required, Scrappers are a braindead push a button and all your worries went away spec. Players stack for the buffs now, are they somehow not going to do this after the changes? is everyone going to lose their minds and turn into runaway roamers when the scrapper casts their cleanse or stealth gyro? does everyone run out of medkit cleaning field now? did scrappers forget they already work with a cleansing field? or aoes from stuff like grenades? do they not know you can even auto target aoes?

 

Scrappers have been built up to the point that no matter what nerf anet introduced they would complain about it. The nerfs need to happen, for the health of the game, for the diversity of specs fighting for the same role, for health of the meta that's now so bloated one sided, for a chance for engineers to get buffs in other areas they might actually need it going forward. I get that scrappers want to hold to every piece of power they have, but it's time for the monopoly to break and spread, and yes that includes firebrands. Too many important necessities loaded on two specs, and if only they had bothered to keep the balance equation in check maybe it wouldn't have had to go down to these type of nerfs.

[TheGrimm.5624]

6 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Sorry Grimm but I disagree. Every class/spec is not suppose to be good at every role, some are better for roaming, some better for support, some better for dps, some better for utility, while core traits are suppose to fill in the additional blanks for those roles. Scourge is meant to be a group spec, not a roamer spec, yes you can roam with it(I use to do it), but it's obviously easier on reaper or harbinger. And for all the complaints about running out of wells, scourge got nerfed probably close to a dozen times because people wouldn't walk out of their aoes 🤷‍♂️ The lazy boon ball expects to just run over everything and have no fear for anything on the grounds because superspeed, cleanse and convert, shields.

 

And I keep seeing these arguments for scrapper, well this mechanic doesn't work on this other class so we shouldn't have it either!  So in other words scrappers who are already godly in support shouldn't be subjected to skill difficulties of other classes? Other classes have to deal with target wells, some additional skill and precision and prediction will be required, Scrappers are a braindead push a button and all your worries went away spec. Players stack for the buffs now, are they somehow not going to do this after the changes? is everyone going to lose their minds and turn into runaway roamers when the scrapper casts their cleanse or stealth gyro? does everyone run out of medkit cleaning field now? did scrappers forget they already work with a cleansing field? or aoes from stuff like grenades? do they not know you can even auto target aoes?

 

Scrappers have been built up to the point that no matter what nerf anet introduced they would complain about it. The nerfs need to happen, for the health of the game, for the diversity of specs fighting for the same role, for health of the meta that's now so bloated one sided, for a chance for engineers to get buffs in other areas they might actually need it going forward. I get that scrappers want to hold to every piece of power they have, but it's time for the monopoly to break and spread, and yes that includes firebrands. Too many important necessities loaded on two specs, and if only they had bothered to keep the balance equation in check maybe it wouldn't have had to go down to these type of nerfs.

 

Nothing to be sorry about, I agree there shouldn't be one to rule them all. As I said I play all the Engis and like the different aspects of their play style. Scrappers felt like mobile turrets that were more melee train. Which was the selling point for the Elite when it was released. ANets thought has moved that should be the Mech. Not been playing the Mech as much yet since know it will go thru adjustments and figure let that dust settle more before going to far there. It just feels more like a PR campaign to play the new Elite as we have seen over the years. As I said will adapt and rebuild if needed as have done each time. That's the advantage to being an alt-o-holic, just grab a different toon while re-crafting another one if its needed. 

[Xenesis.6389]

On 9/20/2022 at 2:34 PM, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Nothing to be sorry about, I agree there shouldn't be one to rule them all. As I said I play all the Engis and like the different aspects of their play style. Scrappers felt like mobile turrets that were more melee train. Which was the selling point for the Elite when it was released. ANets thought has moved that should be the Mech. Not been playing the Mech as much yet since know it will go thru adjustments and figure let that dust settle more before going to far there. It just feels more like a PR campaign to play the new Elite as we have seen over the years. As I said will adapt and rebuild if needed as have done each time. That's the advantage to being an alt-o-holic, just grab a different toon while re-crafting another one if its needed. 

I honestly don't think the change to wells is the "right move", I feel like they could have done further nerfs to numbers to try and bring them more in line while not not messing with the class mechanically, much like the mistake they did with one dodge mirage. But knowing anet they just want to wash their hands quickly with the balancing process of a spec, they barely even want to do quarterly updates, which makes it feel like balancing classes/specs is such a burden to them to do, even though it's a very important process to do regularly for pvp.

I do however feel for how easy scrappers can be played, and with their position in the two top meta support classes to use, that they should feel more difficult to use, which is why I think this change is interesting at the least and maybe given a shot and see how it goes. I feel like tempest and druids are a little more difficult to use mechanically but are more sparingly used in comparison, they both cannot compete with the amount of tools the scrapper brings.

Despite arguments that scrappers isn't the best healer, or best cleanser, or best stealther, they are a total package that is hard to replace, groups obviously will take the support spec that brings 4-5 important tools to a group over one that only brings 1-2. At this point it's difficult to take out some of those parts, so I think logically making them more difficult to play is an answer. While also spreading/introducing some of the tools to make the other support have a chance to be taken more often, like stability to druids.

This move also affects group movement which may give more opportunities to have aoes be more effective instead of just superspeeding over everything (to the complainers that think people will just run out of their wells, hint, this is part of the reason why people easily run out of aoes so easily).

We have 5 person groups that are locked with 2 slots in firebrand/scrapper, 1 slot that practically goes to a rev, and then 2 slots that has to be fought over by 33 other specs. I don't think it's a bad thing to have those support slots fought over by the other support specs a little more instead. If anything engineers have another low impact spec to use anyways if they think scrappers are too difficult to use.

[Verdict is Vengence.6912]

I don't know if scrapper gyro becoming wells is the right move, but since the patch notes have released, I've come to realize that scrapper really is capable of way too much.

And engineers are my 2nd favorite class as well. I've had a ball with scrapper. I hope they don't treat it too badly and watch carefully the drastic changes they're about to bring about on my gearhead boy.

Long live warrior but also may the tool man live and thrive!

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, Verdict is Vengence.6912 said:

I don't know if scrapper gyro becoming wells is the right move

They're already wells.  The change will make them ground targeted wells instead of mobile.

[Verdict is Vengence.6912]

Just now, Chaba.5410 said:

They're already wells.  The change will make them ground targeted wells instead of mobile.

Yea, worded it badly. My bad

[Chaba.5410]

12 minutes ago, Verdict is Vengence.6912 said:

Yea, worded it badly. My bad

No worries.

I think the change will be fine.  There will be more consideration given on well usage, not unlike how necros play.

[HazyDaisy.4107]

Gyros weren't wells in the beginning.

 

I mean...it is what it is, but the truth is we've been baited and switched, twice!

 

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

3 hours ago, Verdict is Vengence.6912 said:

I don't know if scrapper gyro becoming wells is the right move, but since the patch notes have released, I've come to realize that scrapper really is capable of way too much.

And engineers are my 2nd favorite class as well. I've had a ball with scrapper. I hope they don't treat it too badly and watch carefully the drastic changes they're about to bring about on my gearhead boy.

Long live warrior but also may the tool man live and thrive!

long live the zombie class, warrior! no purpose since bubble nerfs anymore unless ur one of the 5 godgamer ones

[Xenesis.6389]

Heeeey scrappers good news, Anet chickened out, gyros not turning into ground wells!

Some numbers changes instead as usual.

[Jski.6180]

1 hour ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Heeeey scrappers good news, Anet chickened out, gyros not turning into ground wells!

Some numbers changes instead as usual.

I guess that one way to remove scraper from the meta lol. This update feels more like its coming from the pve player base you cant have eng skill to be hard to use i guess.

[Leira.5268]

.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Leira.5268
Cant delete comments still..

[HazyDaisy.4107]

I mean, I guess I have no reason to complain.  But seriously? 3 secs of stealth on a 60 sec CD with an apparent marked feature while stealthed for those 3 whole secs?  Even base mesmer elite is better than that guys.

[Sansar.1302]

Where not wels on scraper originaly ground targeted ?

[HazyDaisy.4107]

1 hour ago, Sansar.1302 said:

Where not wels on scraper originaly ground targeted ?

Originally as in when Hot released?  No, gyros (not yet classified as wells) were mobile summons that attempted to follow the player, but they had numerous issues.  The 2019 rework changed them from gyros to mobile wells. With function gyros being the only ground targeted skill.

 

The original intention, from my understanding anyway, of this patch would've been for all gyro wells to be static ground targeted (even in PVE), just like function gyro and now just like defense bubble.  However, that decision was retracted, as player feedback indicated sneak gyro and purge gyro being the biggest problems in wvw and thus no need to mess with the functionality as a whole just the effects and / or CD of these 2 in wvw.

[posthumecaver.6473]

First of all, I am Ele main, I always wish to play my tempest in the Zerg as support but commanders always asked for Scrappers, so I played the Scrapper, I like the class, so when I asked my Tempest to be as viable as Scrapper, I was expecting buffs to my Tempest, not nerfing the scrapper to oblivion....

 

Now I can play my Tempest, but will we see Scrapper in WWW Zergs, 2 or 3 more Mesmers can now give better stealth, ANet we want more options, not that you are deleting classes from game modes in the name of balance.

Edited October 5, 2022 by posthumecaver.6473