Dragon's End is still massively overtuned and random

[Hauwlyn.8051]

2 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

Usually the problem with large squads is that a certain number will try to leech off others. Not just at DE meta but at every single meta. The scaling is not an important factor if everyone or majority contributes. I'm not even talking about any raid rotations - just simple attacks as they would any other time or any events.

A few things that may cause failures for organized large squads: Not listening to commander, too many dead and not trying to get back asap but expecting to be rezzed, too many leechers ( often hiding on airship), too many not paying attention to AoEs to avoid them, not breaking the defiance bars, not killing sub-bosses at the same time (Too often players will run to another sub-boss to try and help from a fast-killing group and in the process leaving that sub-boss severely short-handed. Be always aware of how many left that group so it's not almost abandoned if you go), etc.

Not sure what the minimum size squad will have to be but I doubt a group of 10 will have an easy time because of all the splits - Escorts and main fights. Probably at least 20 in the eventuality some may be downed.

 

I won't remotely deny that this game is full of leechers, and it's evidently clear when you pug raids, whether or not there is a KP/LI requirement or not. But the vast majority of leechers leave Dragon's End alone because they know they can't get carried through it unless they're very lucky. This earlier attempt of mine with a random map? Nobody camped on airship. One guy genuinely thought he should get full rezzed and complained about it at the end. Everyone else was fully involved to the best of their ability. It just so happens that said ability was insufficent. I would say subpar, but sadly in this game they are the par, and I have no wish to exclude them from open world content. The beauty of open world is that you can meet anyone and help them out if they need it. You can carry that newbie who just mentored up through that tough event, and we should be able to do the same in any open world content. It doesn't matter when there's inexplicably only 2 people on each side doing more than 30% of their specs potential dps when doing octovine, or any other meta, why should it suddenly matter here to this extent? We need casuals to populate this game and fund it.

[Ultramex.1506]

Just here to say, from my experience group failed because they ignore tail when their dps were low.
People complaints how this meta is RNG and require high dps yet ignore the mechanic that lower everyone dps, that like purposely adding 2 extra bullets for Russian Roulette.
The third group i'm in was a mess near the end, the commander kept quiet so me and 1 random ask for his/her input, comm finally told us to get tail, we succeeded afterward.

13 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

I expect the people who do clear it in premades or with a popular streamer will still come here and say it's fine as it is. Do you want us to depend on such people for open world content of all things, rather than make do with the people we find there?

Sorry what? Me and many other mostly "make do with people we find there" through LFG, they don't even use discord

Edited December 18, 2022 by Ultramex.1506

[Ashen.2907]

Ive never joined via LFG. Never tried to specifically join for the preparation phases. Just happened to be on the map doing my own thing and noticed something going on in map chat so I joined in. Most attempts have not had a great deal of subgroup organization, some none at all. Mostly successes. The failures have mainly come down to people not trying. Rather than use the WP and come back to participate they lay there whining at the people still up, or who did wp back, rather than help. 

Fun fight. The whole preparation stage thing seems a bit ludicrous to me and the rewards are awful (which is why I dont go out of my way to try to find the event).

Edited December 18, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[Omega.6801]

5 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

I expect the people who do clear it in premades or with a popular streamer will still come here and say it's fine as it is. Do you want us to depend on such people for open world content of all things, rather than make do with the people we find there?

So whoever disagrees with you must be heavily biased because your position is the only reasonable one to have?

DE is fine as it is. There are plenty of open world bosses and metas that can be completed in random groups.

[Hauwlyn.8051]

27 minutes ago, lokh.2695 said:

So whoever disagrees with you must be heavily biased because your position is the only reasonable one to have?

DE is fine as it is. There are plenty of open world bosses and metas that can be completed in random groups.

Actually this point was about this expected "it's fine and I refuse to develop or answer any point anyone makes". Thanks for proving it.

[Khisanth.2948]

5 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

2. cc phases where completed but in some cases pretty close. Not something you want to see tbh, especially with EMP stations around

Allowing EMPs to be used on the map and factoring that into the fight's design was a horrible mistake. You can't use them without the mastery and not everyone arriving in DE is going to have the mastery.

 

 

[Silent.6137]

11 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

Nobody clears it with random full maps.

Skimmed through the preamble before. Just wanted to say that statement is totally false.  I know because I had been involved with two that succeeded. And if I had, I'm sure there are many more who did as well. Those were after the updates but a long time ago. I'm sure the success rate is pretty abysmal for those and I definitely will not join them now since there's never any problem for me to join a LFG group with an almost guaranteed successful run.

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Fine as is, playerbase needs to git gud.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lysico.4906]

I am 12 for 26 on the clears.  I do a few pre events.  Hit a few boss mobs.  Once I die to dragon I sit at the floating WP and wait till it ends.  
 

no clue why folks get all worked up.     Almost 50% win rate for meta.   
 

all this is true.   All this is how pve people approach ranked pvp getting their pips.    So I play pve like they do pvp.     Works for them so why not do it.   

[voltaicbore.8012]

6 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Again, even complete pug groups with a decent commander and some decent players are already doing this, so this is by far NOT something unusual.

I'm not denying that the above behavior isn't difficult or too much to expect, but I think this sort of comment misses the core point of OP - OW content traditionally has an extremely low bar, and the few things DE demands from commanders seems very uncharacteristic (and frankly, wrong) of ANet to implement there.

I think if ANet really wanted to up the ante without pissing people off, they should have done tiered rewards like strikes. A high dps group with discipline regarding buffs and mechanics get the fullest rewards, and at the other end of the spectrum is the group that just barely finishes the kill gets comparatively less.

Either way, my experience of DE is that it feels a bit like scuffed DS - still too much pre-work for my tastes in DE, requires people to know what to do, but no longer such high failure rate.

[yoni.7015]

The meta is fine as it is, no need to change anything.

There already are too many meta events that are way to easy and no challenge. It’s good that this one meta event is a little bit more challenging. 
I have now over 100 successful meta runs. 

Edited December 18, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Hesione.9412]

8 hours ago, Ultramex.1506 said:

Just here to say, from my experience group failed because they ignore tail when their dps were low.
People complaints how this meta is RNG and require high dps yet ignore the mechanic that lower everyone dps, that like purposely adding 2 extra bullets for Russian Roulette.
The third group i'm in was a mess near the end, the commander kept quiet so me and 1 random ask for his/her input, comm finally told us to get tail, we succeeded afterward.

Sorry what? Me and many other mostly "make do with people we find there" through LFG, they don't even use discord

The last fail I was in, the comm asked for roles, kept about 1/3 of the squad in sub 1, including people who had said their role (I moved myself), and told people to attack the tail at one point - which was a good call - and only I and 2 other players attacked the tail. Spoiler: neither of the two other players was the comm. The splits on the mini-bosses were poorly done, particularly for the phase with the 3 mini-bosses. It was a shite-show and we had a raging comm at the end. One more for my blocklist.

[Hesione.9412]

8 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Ive never joined via LFG. Never tried to specifically join for the preparation phases. Just happened to be on the map doing my own thing and noticed something going on in map chat so I joined in. Most attempts have not had a great deal of subgroup organization, some none at all. Mostly successes. The failures have mainly come down to people not trying. Rather than use the WP and come back to participate they lay there whining at the people still up, or who did wp back, rather than help. 

Fun fight. The whole preparation stage thing seems a bit ludicrous to me and the rewards are awful (which is why I dont go out of my way to try to find the event).

This lying-there-dead-expecting-to-be-rezzed is super annoying in these types of metas. It would be nice if full-dead would automatically be teleported somewhere, which would show them they are not going to be rezzed.

[Cyninja.2954]

7 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

I'm not denying that the above behavior isn't difficult or too much to expect, but I think this sort of comment misses the core point of OP - OW content traditionally has an extremely low bar, and the few things DE demands from commanders seems very uncharacteristic (and frankly, wrong) of ANet to implement there.

I think if ANet really wanted to up the ante without pissing people off, they should have done tiered rewards like strikes. A high dps group with discipline regarding buffs and mechanics get the fullest rewards, and at the other end of the spectrum is the group that just barely finishes the kill gets comparatively less.

Either way, my experience of DE is that it feels a bit like scuffed DS - still too much pre-work for my tastes in DE, requires people to know what to do, but no longer such high failure rate.

 

I do agree that some tiered reward system would reduce the dissatisfaction present when failing. It could even motivate players to keep trying, knowing that there is a fall-back reward and the effort does not go to waste, plus it would reduce the stress on players feeling as though going with organized groups is necessary.

 

Longer event chains do pose a problem overall. They exclude players which are unable to devote such large chunks of time. They over-proportionately punish players which fail, if no tiered reward system is in place. They are very boring if success is guaranteed.

 

The alternative of having short but highly difficult events is the flip side here. They are done and over very quick. Require a short burst of high performance (and as such less time to actually prepare players, meaning players have to prepare and learn outside of the event). Feel over-proportionately rewarding when completed successfully while not as punishing when failed since the time investment is shorter. Tiered rewards are less of an issue.

 

I think the game needs a mix of events as to not grow stale. I do agree that designing reward structure better towards how a meta is designed does make sense.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

7 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

The meta is fine as it is, no need to change anything.

There already are too many meta events that are way to easy and no challenge. It’s good that this one meta event is a little bit more challenging. 
I have now over 100 successful meta runs. 

Let me printschreen this message , in case in the future like Marrionete/TT/Chak , in case people say once again that the majority dont do it because of the rewards 😛

Thankfully , in 2023 ,thewhole we will have an enjoyable content for the 99% of the population ,  now that  the 1% have been satisfied .with back to back Marioneste >DE in the whole 2022. And we will try to instanced version them for competivive players , just like the 3 watchknights

Edited December 18, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Crono.4197]

Ah yes, Dragon's End. I forgot that place even exists, since I don't do the meta anymore. After 20-ish fails and only 1 success, I got tired of that place, left the map and never went there again.

Arenanet's statistics regarding the meta look positive now only because a lot of people gave up on the meta and only the ones who still do it are mostly people who play in organized squads/do raids/like hard content.

I'm curious to see a statistic of the TOTAL people who ever touched the meta, how many are still doing it. Pretty sure it wouldn't be a positive statistic.

[Cyninja.2954]

25 minutes ago, Crono.4197 said:

I'm curious to see a statistic of the TOTAL people who ever touched the meta, how many are still doing it. Pretty sure it wouldn't be a positive statistic.

 

We have something in game which we can make assumptions around:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Myung-Hee

 

If you check the individual statues:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jade_Empress_Statuette - 67c/1s

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jade_Gate_Statuette - 1g/1g14s

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jade_Cathedral_Statuette - 12s01c/19s95c

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jade_Dragon_Statuette - 8s77c/12s05c

 

All of those statues are acquired the same way (by completing the corresponding meta 1nce per week) and have exactly 1 purpose of use (turn in at Myung-Hee 1nce per week). The price difference indicates that the only statue more common than the Dragon statue is from Seitung, which is likely the most run meta overall.

 

The most expensive statue is from Kaineng, the by far longest and "confusing" meta in EoD. Probably as long as Dragon's End but less rewarding overall.

 

Dragon's End statue is cheaper than Echovald forest meta, which is probably the shortest of them all and even only requires killing the final boss for the reward.

 

So within the metas being completed in EoD, Dragon's End is definitely run a lot, be it by only players who organize and succeed, or not (likely to some extent). The completions overall do point to a large amount at least equal to the other 3 metas and even exceeding 2 of them which are significantly easier. Now how this stacks up to all the other games content, that's harder to evaluate or would require far more digging.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[voltaicbore.8012]

12 minutes ago, Crono.4197 said:

I'm curious to see a statistic of the TOTAL people who ever touched the meta, how many are still doing it. Pretty sure it wouldn't be a positive statistic.

This is also my suspicion, that the increase in success rate is more of a result of most people giving up while those who remain overrepresent the type of player able to get this particular piece of content cleared.

However, I suspect that is the case with many other forms of content, including my beloved DS runs. The real issue for me will be if there's any evidence that DE was abandoned by players at a meaningfully higher rate than other content. I could be surprised, I can imagine an outcome where DE somehow retained a pretty high engagement compared to other expansion metas.

[Cuks.8241]

13 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

This is also my suspicion, that the increase in success rate is more of a result of most people giving up while those who remain overrepresent the type of player able to get this particular piece of content cleared.

However, I suspect that is the case with many other forms of content, including my beloved DS runs. The real issue for me will be if there's any evidence that DE was abandoned by players at a meaningfully higher rate than other content. I could be surprised, I can imagine an outcome where DE somehow retained a pretty high engagement compared to other expansion metas.

If you check the statuette prices @Cyninja.2954 posted you can see the meta is very popular. If you check the historical market for DE statue you can actually discern how popular it is over time.

I've been actually posting these prices on the forums for some time just because a lot of players spew kitten here which is clearly wrong.

2 of the most common misconceptions are that it is not rewarding. Even though it is one of the most rewarding events in the game and many groups run it in their meta trains. You just port in 5 mins before escorts, ignore all the pre work and its actually one of the best GPH in the game. And no you dont need some raid comp for that. Its everyone welcome.

Also the second misconception is that it is dying. But based on the statuettes' pricing the meta is holding better than the other metas with exception Seitung.

 

[yoni.7015]

19 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

If you check the statuette prices @Cyninja.2954 posted you can see the meta is very popular. If you check the historical market for DE statue you can actually discern how popular it is over time.

I've been actually posting these prices on the forums for some time just because a lot of players spew kitten here which is clearly wrong.

2 of the most common misconceptions are that it is not rewarding. Even though it is one of the most rewarding events in the game and many groups run it in their meta trains. You just port in 5 mins before escorts, ignore all the pre work and its actually one of the best GPH in the game. And no you dont need some raid comp for that. Its everyone welcome.

Also the second misconception is that it is dying. But based on the statuettes' pricing the meta is holding better than the other metas with exception Seitung.

 

Yeah, Seitung is very popular because of the Ambergis. 
Doing the DE meta three times a week, it’s far from dead, the squad always fills very quickly and it’s always a win. 
But I guess people who don’t like it have to badmouth it for some reason. 

Edited December 18, 2022 by yoni.7015

[soul.9651]

People on forums still cry about this?..

[Silent.6137]

1 hour ago, Crono.4197 said:

Arenanet's statistics regarding the meta look positive now only because a lot of people gave up on the meta and only the ones who still do it are mostly people who play in organized squads/do raids/like hard content.

I'm curious to see a statistic of the TOTAL people who ever touched the meta, how many are still doing it. Pretty sure it wouldn't be a positive statistic.

Statements like these are often made by those who don't do those meta anymore and assume everyone else will be the same. I do this meta as often as I can, almost daily, by joining squads on LFG. Except for a very small handful of familiar faces, the daily compositions are mainly strangers. With a huge segments of 1st timers and players who had only done it once or twice. That hardly constitute people who only play in organized squads/do raids/like hard content.

Which meta do you do personally? And which ones have you abandoned or hardly ever visit again? Most metas will fall into that category of  "TOTAL people who ever touched the meta, how many are still doing it" for most of us. On a personal scale, most of us would have moved on from many of those. Leaving it to newer players. Thus, it'll never be a positive statistics.

For me, I hardly visit most of them unless they are part of dailies. World bosses and any metas before IBS, only go if there's a good reason to. HoT metas? World Bosses? Although easy, just not worth the time/effort for the low value loots. Dragonfall? Takes too long because you have to farm keys. Only ones worth visiting are Drizzlewood and EoD metas atm until something newer comes along.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Silent.6137

[A Hamster.2580]

38 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

People on forums still cry about this?..

Yeah some demand a 100% success rate for this ultimate finale to the story regardless of the overall squad's preparation/experience. I mean there are posts asking for skyscale to be put into the gemstore and posts complaining about the difficulty of jump puzzles popping up on this official forum. Also many posts complaining about legendary armor being locked behind raids when there are two other sets available that don't require skill or team play. When EOD was released, there were posts with concerns about "making the game harder" when it was the complete opposite with the new jade offensive/defensive buffs and jade vitality core.

 

I love reading these. It's like watching a house burning down and you can't look away.

Edited December 18, 2022 by A Hamster.2580

[Hauwlyn.8051]

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

We have something in game which we can make assumptions around:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Myung-Hee

 

If you check the individual statues:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jade_Empress_Statuette - 67c/1s

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jade_Gate_Statuette - 1g/1g14s

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jade_Cathedral_Statuette - 12s01c/19s95c

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jade_Dragon_Statuette - 8s77c/12s05c

 

All of those statues are acquired the same way (by completing the corresponding meta 1nce per week) and have exactly 1 purpose of use (turn in at Myung-Hee 1nce per week). The price difference indicates that the only statue more common than the Dragon statue is from Seitung, which is likely the most run meta overall.

 

The most expensive statue is from Kaineng, the by far longest and "confusing" meta in EoD. Probably as long as Dragon's End but less rewarding overall.

 

Dragon's End statue is cheaper than Echovald forest meta, which is probably the shortest of them all and even only requires killing the final boss for the reward.

 

So within the metas being completed in EoD, Dragon's End is definitely run a lot, be it by only players who organize and succeed, or not (likely to some extent). The completions overall do point to a large amount at least equal to the other 3 metas and even exceeding 2 of them which are significantly easier. Now how this stacks up to all the other games content, that's harder to evaluate or would require far more digging.

Comparing it solely to other EoD metas is cherry picking because you're not comparing it to the actual popular metas like the HoT ones, and your analysis doesn't take in account the people who got into running DE all the time because the Antique Summoning Stone sold for a lot. Those prices for the statuette might go up in the future too if the stone keeps losing value. That is to say, you can throw plenty of hypothesis around, but this data is very far from conclusive, keep in mind the post you quoted wants us to consider the amount of people who are interested in the meta, not how dedicated the ones that do run it, which completely twists the metric that is the statuette.

 

1 hour ago, Cuks.8241 said:

You just port in 5 mins before escorts, ignore all the pre work and its actually one of the best GPH in the game. And no you dont need some raid comp for that. Its everyone welcome.

If everyone did that, the completion rate would go down. I'm not saying this for some kind of moralistic appeal, whether you think it's fine or not to do it this way is your call, but the matters remain: if everyone did it, it would fail more.

 

1 hour ago, yoni.7015 said:

But I guess people who don’t like it have to badmouth it for some reason. 

"This is my stance on the whole topic and I refuse not only to read the many points as to how its badly designed brought up by the many answers, but the ones from the opening post as well" The whole problem I'm putting upfront is the fact that you have to organize an lfg squad to guarantee it unlike every other meta save TT where being early enough in the map will mean the map will be full and it will clear. You'd be surprised how many newbies still don't know to use the LFG to optimize their chances at open world content.

 

50 minutes ago, A Hamster.2580 said:

Yeah some demand a 100% success rate for this ultimate finale to the story regardless of the overall squad's preparation/experience.

Random people getting to Dragon's Stand the first time the story brings them here will clear it. They'd need to be lucky for the same to be true of Dragon's End. Sure, DS is not the finale of the whole dragon saga, merely that of the very first expansion of the game which introduced elite specs, I don't think this nitpick will justify the difference though.

 

52 minutes ago, A Hamster.2580 said:

I mean there are posts asking for skyscale to be put into the gemstore and posts complaining about the difficulty of jump puzzles popping up on this official forum. Also many posts complaining about legendary armor being locked behind raids when there are two other sets available that don't require skill or team play.

Clearly examples you think are obvious of people wanting to make the game too easy are particularly relevant. Hey, pineapples are too sweet, clearly we'd be better off if every fruit was less sweet. No point was made today, especially considering there is still no skyscale in the gemstore and they didn't add any new way to get legendary armor, so you can't pretend a change that didn't happen was damaging.

[WhiskeyJack.6021]

I'll tell you what's worse than DE. It's people using acronyms without using the words in full at least once beforehand.