Will GW2 survive as NCSoft's second least profitable title?

[Khisanth.2948]

I guess it is like running away from a bear ... you don't have to be the fastest, just need to find someone to throw at the bear.> @mindcircus.1506 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:If Anarchy Online can survive 18 years with a handful of players and no major content for just about 15 years, I feel pretty confident GW2 will be fine

City of Heroes players said similar things.

Meanwhile Wildstar hobbled along for much longer with lower numbers ...

On the other hand I've always found it weird that NCSoft has a bunch of MMOs. Seems weird to be competing with itself.

[Randulf.7614]

@Khisanth.2948 said:I guess it is like running away from a bear ... you don't have to be the fastest, just need to find someone to throw at the bear.> @mindcircus.1506 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:If Anarchy Online can survive 18 years with a handful of players and no major content for just about 15 years, I feel pretty confident GW2 will be fine

City of Heroes players said similar things.

Meanwhile Wildstar hobbled along for much longer with lower numbers ...

On the other hand I've always found it weird that NCSoft has a bunch of MMOs. Seems weird to be competing with itself.

It's not uncommon though. Funcom own 3 or 4 (Anarchy, Conan, Secret World and..Lego?), Lotro and DDO are or were owned by the same people. It can help with cross promotional advertising. There's good and bad points to it mind you - advertising, development sharing and so forth.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@"Faline.8795" said:With the recent quarterly report coming out naming GW2 as second-to-last in income revenue, would they be asking if the money being put into GW2 be better spent on another title that costs less and makes more money?

We know the answer, since GW2 has been second-to-last in those reports repeatedly, and well below the top earner. Just a few examples:

• 2015 Q2 (https://redd.it/3faohk) GW2 22b KRW, beating AION, Lineage 2, & Wildstar (respectively 20, 16, & 2), with top earner Lineage 1 (@85)
• 2016 Q2 (https://redd.it/4x5b9s). GW2 15.8b KRW, below even AION, with top earner Lineage 1 (@94)
• 2017 Q2 (https://redd.it/6s1v2u) GW2 13.5b KRW, below even Lineage 2 (beat AION tho), with top earner Lineage M (@94)
• 2018 Q2 (https://redd.it/973ctb) GW2 19.9b KRW, beating AION & Lineage 2 (15.6 & 13.3 respectively), with top earner Lineage M (@209)

We also note that despite Lineage 1 taking a nose dive (from 94b KRW to 34b KRW), even before Lineage Mobile got off the ground for a full quarter, NCSOFT didn't touch it. And now it's holding at 42b.

And finally, it's naive to imagine that a dollar pulled from GW2 can be translated to a dollar invested in some other existing title, never mind a profitable title in some as-yet-unreleased game.

tl;dr studios don't pull titles just because they perform less well than other titles (from the same studio); there are a host of other factors.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Khisanth.2948 said:I guess it is like running away from a bear ... you don't have to be the fastest, just need to find someone to throw at the bear.> @mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Randulf.7614" said:If Anarchy Online can survive 18 years with a handful of players and no major content for just about 15 years, I feel pretty confident GW2 will be fine

City of Heroes players said similar things.

Meanwhile Wildstar hobbled along for much longer with lower numbers ...

Meanwhile Tabula Rasa, Dungeon Runners and Auto Assault did not.

Look.... don't get me wrong. I think GW2 is pretty healthy actually.But what we used to say back in the day about our beloved CoH was "As long as (insert low population maintenance-mode MMO) is still online, we're safe."We weren't.It's poor reasoning.

City of Heroes was still making money when the plug was pulled. Not lots, and the numbers were in a slow and steady decline. When you add the decline to the shifty stuff Paragon Studios was playing with the development money given by NCSoft you got a shutdown.

Meanwhile Anarchy Online is still ...well...online.

[Tiviana.2650]

@ElvenBlades.8017 said:As someone who just started the game and is having a really good time playing and exploring. This is really scary to think about. I don't want GW2 to go away. :(

Me either, i can be critical of some things but i dont want the game to stop.

[Khisanth.2948]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Khisanth.2948 said:I guess it is like running away from a bear ... you don't have to be the fastest, just need to find someone to throw at the bear.> @mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Randulf.7614" said:If Anarchy Online can survive 18 years with a handful of players and no major content for just about 15 years, I feel pretty confident GW2 will be fine

City of Heroes players said similar things.

Meanwhile Wildstar hobbled along for much longer with lower numbers ...

Meanwhile Tabula Rasa, Dungeon Runners and Auto Assault did not.

Look.... don't get me wrong. I think GW2 is pretty healthy actually.But what we used to say back in the day about our beloved CoH was "As long as (insert low population maintenance-mode MMO) is still online, we're safe."We weren't.It's poor reasoning.

City of Heroes was still making money when the plug was pulled. Not lots, and the numbers were in a slow and steady decline. When you add the decline to the shifty stuff Paragon Studios was playing with the development money given by NCSoft you got a shutdown.

Meanwhile Anarchy Online is still ...well...online.

All this really means is that this entire thread and topic is completely useless and pointless because there are factors that has nothing to do with those numbers and have higher priority in decision making.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Khisanth.2948 said:All this really means is that this entire thread and topic is completely useless and pointless because there are factors that has nothing to do with those numbers and have higher priority in decision making.

Yup.

[Fenom.9457]

All right, I’ll admit today’s edition of “the game is dying!” Actually came with some thought out questions and research. Still, no

[ProtoGunner.4953]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

1. Guild wars 2 is obscure at best, no one really talks about this game anymore. We don't get good marketing and we don't get much in the way of trailers to try and hook new players.
2. We are in a slight content drought
3. nothing much has changed, the game is the same despite the expansions.
4. cosmetics are lousy
5. Our races are kind of lack lust in the way of WOW factor
6. classes are a mess right now
7. The game has no direction, its a jack of all trades and a master of none. It also caters heavily to the casual audience so there are players out there disinterested
8. people are more educated on gaming now, they look up how the game is doing and if its worth getting into before coming over. With how the game is now (If I were new, looking to get in) Id say nah to guild wars 2. With all the negativity everywhere and how the community is, id be turned off by that and how the game handles specific things. Its the nature of the beast.
9. We have nothing really new and awe inspiring
10. Competitive play is a joke, and has been dead for years now. We have literally no pvp or wvw competitions and nothing to really drag in the competitive crowd, and raids are meh at best. Doesn't help the story messed up the lore from the first game and has little respect for their source material anymore, this makes following or keeping track of it pointless.

I support your opinion in most points. But this game has a vast and one of the best and most complex skin culture. They are extremely detailed and well done. For example check the details of the legendary Astralaria or the Skyscale mount pack (the new one). The dying of mounts an other items is extremely well done and has zero competition.

Also, play other MMOs, compared to GW2 they lack quality, natural feel and fluent gameplay. It's a catastrophe how most MMOs look and feel, still today. Also races lackluster? What do you mean? Sorry, but check out most other MMOs. Many are just humanoid boring copies.

[yann.1946]

@Diesel Stelar.3709 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

1. Guild wars 2 is obscure at best, no one really talks about this game anymore. We don't get good marketing and we don't get much in the way of trailers to try and hook new players.....

I completely agree. I've played GW1 competitive mode since Factions and the game was pretty lively until the end with decent dungeons added later on, but what GW1 GvG was in the MMORPG genre I don't know if any other game could best.

The content drought is serious. The game has been out for 7 years and has 1 new class. I get it, the balancing of new classes will create serious problems and turmoil, but if you don't even try to refreshen the core gameplay why even bother supporting the game.The HoT map content and mechanics were amazing and revolutionising the way you interact with the map in a mmo game, but after that it's been all downhill. PoF content is bland and not appealing to repeat, which is why the maps stay nearly empty. The living stories are great for the first... couple of days of their release, after that they are empty. I completed my story when the beetle mount was released, but couldn't bother at the time with the mount itself. A few weeks later, I can't find anyone on party search doing the bounty quest so I gave up. And let's face it, after each episode the previous maps are being abandoned.

Truth is the majority of GW 1 playerbase was pvp oriented and they felt kicked in the kitten with how gutted pvp in GW2 is. The PvE aspect is way better than GW1, but with the lowest skill and content cealing I've seen in a mmorpg game of this scale. So neglected and gutted pvp with low ceiling on pve equals....GW2. I didn't back in 2012/13 and still don't get why they took a 180 degree turn from the pvp aspect, why compete with the true king of west pve mmorpg in WoW (and I say it with prolly 10 hours of WoW gameplay), when you can be the dominant pvp mmorpg. Anet made a really poor analysis on the future of the genre and game scene and they are paying the price for their choices. Right now there could've been more than 50k viewers on twitch and major tournaments, bringing revenue if the game was the pvp from the original game and upgraded pve. Instead the peak viewership gets MightyTeapot on balance changes streams with 400-500 viewers on average and ingame constant decreasing population.

I personally don't think there's anything to salvage, the game is pretty much on autopilot with a living story team and mmorpg is long dead compared to other genres to even bother investing in a major overhaul.In conclusion GW 1 was ahead of its time and GW2 is late to the party.

I think you're overestimating the use pvp would have had. This game is to fast-paced for a nice viewing experience. And the changes nessecary to fit a slower gameplay might have hurt the game more.

Also gw2 open world pve is the best in genre by a Longshot. Esos quest are a little better but I wouldn't call the gameplay their good.

Gw2 is at the moment the mmo for the less devoted. It has its niche which you might not like, but that doesn't mean it's bad.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

From what we know at this point. Anet/NCWest's only product is GW2. Killing GW2 would leave NCsoft with no meaningful presence in the western market and a subsidiary that is dead weight. I'm not in their accounting but looking from the outside, it's not a move that makes sense.

Of course that's the current situation and it can always change in the future. I'd be way more worried about GW2's future if I knew Anet had another big project in the works.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:

1. Guild wars 2 is obscure at best, no one really talks about this game anymore. We don't get good marketing and we don't get much in the way of trailers to try and hook new players.
2. We are in a slight content drought
3. nothing much has changed, the game is the same despite the expansions.
4. cosmetics are lousy
5. Our races are kind of lack lust in the way of WOW factor
6. classes are a mess right now
7. The game has no direction, its a jack of all trades and a master of none. It also caters heavily to the casual audience so there are players out there disinterested
8. people are more educated on gaming now, they look up how the game is doing and if its worth getting into before coming over. With how the game is now (If I were new, looking to get in) Id say nah to guild wars 2. With all the negativity everywhere and how the community is, id be turned off by that and how the game handles specific things. Its the nature of the beast.
9. We have nothing really new and awe inspiring
10. Competitive play is a joke, and has been dead for years now. We have literally no pvp or wvw competitions and nothing to really drag in the competitive crowd, and raids are meh at best. Doesn't help the story messed up the lore from the first game and has little respect for their source material anymore, this makes following or keeping track of it pointless.

I support your opinion in most points. But this game has a vast and one of the best and most complex skin culture. They are extremely detailed and well done. For example check the details of the legendary Astralaria or the Skyscale mount pack (the new one). The dying of mounts an other items is extremely well done and has zero competition.

Also, play other MMOs, compared to GW2 they lack quality, natural feel and fluent gameplay. It's a catastrophe how most MMOs look and feel, still today. Also races lackluster? What do you mean? Sorry, but check out most other MMOs. Many are just humanoid boring copies.

We have the charr and asuran, norn would of been unique but they decided to strip them of all their awesome racial stuff. So no the races here are boring outside of what? Two? Sylvari? Elves. Sorry Im done living in the hubris that this game has good gameplay; Sure its polished and fluent but honestly it doesn't save the game from the issues apparent. The argument here is everyone always says "But its pretty?" Are we playing the same game? Partical effects all over the place, most the armor looks like crap on anything other than human/sylvari and its all the same anime-themed nonesense.

The game honestly right now has so much potential, but no one is willing to devote to its potential. It could have a competitive setting for pvp if the game were more balanced, if WoW can do it and WoW has worse balance than this than guild wars can do it. Fractals? Greater rifts from diablo 3, which have an E-sport to them or well the WoW mythic plus equivalent does at least. Raids? Again the mythic race for WoW, they could get the E-sports they so desperately wanted but no and since that is not something they deem they can do a lot of the modes made for that have been abandoned. PvP, WvW? All abandoned. The PvE in guild wars 2 is kind boring, the maps are fun the first time through but they wear quickly and the repeatable hearts don't help (The new maps.)

WvW and PvP have lost a lot of players and we have lost out content creators which keep the games name out there; The herald and Woodenpotatoes are all we really have left because no one else is even covering this game. TheHerald was on ESO a while ago and has been dabbling in other games; And she used to be a guild wars exclusive content creator? We lost the majority of our pvp crowd, and WvW is finally bleeding players and while players are still out there no one has hope or faith that these issues will get better. Guild wars 2 could be the best mmo-rpg on the market and give ESO, WoW, and Final fantasy a run for its money but we aren't even talked about anymore because no one cares. All The listings of games and we don't even appear; We don't even make it onto the forefront of the docket and we aren't even one of the big 4 anymore, there are only three mmo's that are well known right now which I mentioned above. None of which are that good; But they offer the things people look for in mmo-rpgs which is community and something to work toward. Guild wars 2 removed the trinity, removed progression in favor of vanity and gave us collections which are scavanger hunts while this is not bad (Outside of the trinity) it doesn't equate to maintaining a fanbase. You can't make the game to be a theme-park and thats why im hoping on the 30th they announce that this will change and the game will become an MMO-rpg, and not a Sandbox single player game where I am not required to deal with anyone.

If people want to be able to solo everything there are single player games out there, with better story and so on. But this game is meant to be played with people and sure raids require it but there is little talking. Guilds are pointless they function as more vanity, Guild wars 1 was ahead of its time if you were to upgrade the graphics and shove the guild wars 2 combat engine with all the customization, lore, story and competitive features INCLUDING hardmode for maps. Guild wars 1 would roflstomp and murder guild wars 2, and that is not how it should be.

[Vayne.8563]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ben K.6238 said:Shutting down all your products except for a small handful that make the most money is not always a good way of doing business; the customers that don't pay as much are still customers and are still paying. Until you're operating at a loss it's always better to have them than not to.

While this is true ... NCSoft dumped Tabula Rasa and IIRC, it was profitable.

Tabula Rasa closed after two years and never hit the target numbers it was supposed to, according to their own messaging. I've said all along it was all about expectations and it remains so. Guild Wars 2 meets expectations and Tabula Rasa did not.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

https://altarofgaming.com/all-mmos-sorted-by-population-2018/ (for 2019)https://www.pcgamesn.com/10-best-pc-mmoshttps://bestreamer.com/gaming/most-played-mmorpg-2019/2/https://www.b4gamez.com/best-mmo-and-mmorpgs/https://mmo-population.com/top/2019https://massivelyop.com/2018/12/19/perfect-ten-the-mmos-with-the-best-value-going-into-2019/

Just a few from the first page of Google search.

Now, I'm sure one can find plenty of sites where this isn't the case, but to say Guild Wars 2 isn't mentioned, nor in the top 4 doesn't seem to be accurate.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:https://altarofgaming.com/all-mmos-sorted-by-population-2018/ (for 2019)https://www.pcgamesn.com/10-best-pc-mmoshttps://bestreamer.com/gaming/most-played-mmorpg-2019/2/https://www.b4gamez.com/best-mmo-and-mmorpgs/https://mmo-population.com/top/2019https://massivelyop.com/2018/12/19/perfect-ten-the-mmos-with-the-best-value-going-into-2019/

Just a few from the first page of Google search.

Now, I'm sure one can find plenty of sites where this isn't the case, but to say Guild Wars 2 isn't mentioned, nor in the top 4 doesn't seem to be accurate.

It's also on the most popular list on https://www.mmorpg.com/ a website dedicated to mmorpgs

[Zin Dau.1749]

GW2 is among the top 5 western MMO, and has generally favorable rapport in MMO circles. Unfortunately it doesn't have a rabid fanbase like the other top MMOs. For one, the other franchises offer offline single player games, especially for consoles, that don't have the stigma of MMOs.

Also disappointed is PVP balance has always been and will continue to be terrible. Hence it could never compete with Lineage for the Korean market. or esports market in general.

On the upside, GW2 do offer plenty of shiny pretty skins. Fortunately humans are mostly materialistic, facetious, so that market is where GW2 exploits expertly.

[Goettel.4389]

Don't worry so much, play it if you like it, or move on. Leave business to the business.

[Blanche Neige.7241]

Except at launch and a few months after, and when they released expansions, GW2 mostly more or less had the same level of sales on every quarterly reports. If they were able to survive for seven years with those revenues, they can probably continue like that for a few more years.

And : GW1 is probably making close to no money these days, and the servers are still not closed by NCSoft.

[Diesel Stelar.3709]

@yann.1946 said:

@Diesel Stelar.3709 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

1. Guild wars 2 is obscure at best, no one really talks about this game anymore. We don't get good marketing and we don't get much in the way of trailers to try and hook new players.....

I completely agree. I've played GW1 competitive mode since Factions and the game was pretty lively until the end with decent dungeons added later on, but what GW1 GvG was in the MMORPG genre I don't know if any other game could best.

I think you're overestimating the use pvp would have had. This game is to fast-paced for a nice viewing experience. And the changes nessecary to fit a slower gameplay might have hurt the game more.

Also gw2 open world pve is the best in genre by a Longshot. Esos quest are a little better but I wouldn't call the gameplay their good.

Gw2 is at the moment the mmo for the less devoted. It has its niche which you might not like, but that doesn't mean it's bad.

Maybe you have recently started playing GW2, but it wasn't all this fast pace, which I agree with, in the early years. Highest dps was thief, guardians provided boons and sustainability, warrriors cc, rangers 1v1 nodes with sb, sw/t, engineers with turret builds. There are many reasons that lead to the instajib meta since around HoT, but the main reason was the balancing of condi builds. At first they were useless, then buffed beyond belief to the point everyone who could run a condi build did it. Then instead of properly scaling back the condis they scaled up the power builds and so on and so on to the point every class has an instajib power build and almost every an instajib condi build. The lack of any support in sPvP played just as huge role, lack of modes, lack of any interest. But this is how Anet does things, in order to promote one game mode, they let another to die. To promote world bosses and events, they killed dungeons. Now as far as I know they are messing with the raids and promoting the living world metas. They neglected the sPvP aspect to promote WvW.Still in my opinion if they loved so much WvW, there can't be just 1 new map since release and 1 removed (a jungle map I think) due to unbalance. GvG could've existed if they really wanted in the early days of GW2 with a lot of work and tweaking, but they didn't. Right now an 8v8 battle would be a complete mess. In GW1 in order to kill someone usually you needed a war to stun, necro stripping boons, rangers and mesmers to interrupt the incoming heals from the opponent, etc. A collective effort on multiple levels.

I still kinda like the game, but understand under what I meant with the low ceiling. GW 1 was a pvp game, which allowed with its mechanics aka no farming for equipment stats, for those players to also enjoy pve and high end pve. GW 2 is the other way around, but still the same mechanics and with dead pvp. I've never had time to farm like people do in WoW and so I didn't play it, but if a game is pve based there should be some sort of incentive to play more other than looking like Willy Wonka or spending magical moments of easy gameplay with people I'll most likely never meet.

I've been playing pvp games for a long time and can tell you, the friendships I forged with people from different games stand today 10-15 years later and on every chance we get we meet. The bond you create with a person, you've together competed against others and reached some success or even were opponents and have each others respect is way stronger than remembering killing with my guild that dragon over there that spawns every 3 hours.

[Firebeard.1746]

I dug through NCsoft's financial records and noticed that HoT had the lowest historical quarter not the one right before the layoffs (and sales went up the quarter after the layoff with the GW2 cash shop). This makes me kind of worried. Also NCsoft doesn't really focus on improving existing products, it usually likes to see new ones. And it wants to see them succeed first and foremost in Korea (see CoH's history).

I just am worried this game won't evolve how it should with a company that doesn't respect individual player's time investment or communities built inside their games. How can Anet get NCsoft to be hands off at the very least?

Most of my impressions about how NCsoft functions are based off of Nerd Slayer's death of a game analysis on CoH and wildstar.

[Etria.3642]

NCSoft should just sell Anet, if they want to focus on Korea. West like different games.

[OctopusX.7185]

Maybe stop wasting NCsoft's money on useless projects that will never see a light?

[Firebeard.1746]

@OctopusX.7185 said:Maybe stop wasting NCsoft's money on useless projects that will never see a light?

Source?

[OctopusX.7185]

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@OctopusX.7185 said:Maybe stop wasting NCsoft's money on useless projects that will never see a light?

Source?

Nike's video.

[Tiviana.2650]

@Etria.3642 said:NCSoft should just sell Anet, if they want to focus on Korea. West like different games.

I wish they would, or maybe let them go and they can team with a company like the one that makes LotRO , or even blizzard would be better. GW2 is a western mmo, the majority of players are westerners, they dont want the Korean style gaming put in our western mmos.

Oh and another thing, dont ever think the company holding the reigns of GW2 isnt calling the shots. You can bet they sure are, they own anet, and they have the last word in gw2.