Is Renegade the most poorly designed elite spec in this game?

[Doggie.3184]

I can see this is all still relevant. Wish they'd go back and flesh out their core which would in turn improve the elite specs and add more build diversity. There's just not enough customization for this class and I regret maxing out his inventory space on release~ I thought I'd like it but I still struggle to enjoy the class.

[InsaneQR.7412]

I say yes.Nothing against the weapon and the traits, but the utilities and the class mechanic just purely suck.I hate the buff ghosts and i dont like the visuals and the class mechanic is just not fitting.You have 3 charr based skills that make no sense when trying to play a certain build. You use the one that gives alacrity when supporting.Bombardment as burst finishers and the last one if you have nothing else to do.

I think the visuals and atleast t the bombardment should change depending on eithwr weapon or legend.Weapon would be fitting.So you have bombardmend on shortbow.Some CC on hammer.Heals on Staff.Corrupt on maceAnd maybe a smokefield and burst on sword MH.

Would make it more interesting and versatile. The other two could change too maybe.

The spirits should just straight up be changed.I mean they should work like the hammer jump. A mist figure that cannot be targeted.Elite idea could stay, but i would say PbAoE arround the rev.Heal like it is now but with slightly changed visuals.Interrupt one is fine, just make it unkillable and uninteruptable. Its just a flashy skill not a real summon.

The Ice Razor just looks weird and just short animation that sends a barrage of projectiles out would be better and Ice razor appears behind you while casting similar to the bear on ranger GS 2. The hits should inflict chill only and deal good dmg, so you can spec it to apply tons if torment to.

And razorclaws rage should just be like a Soulbeast stance and the stunbreak of the legend. You see the silloutte of the charr and buff allies arround you. And they will be buffed for the duration and every strike will be powered up for set duration.

Done. Way way bettwr e-spec to play.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

The design isn't actually that awful, it's just "underloaded".

If you look at other elite specs from PoF, you will notice their new abilities all do 3-5 things. Deal damage, remove a boon, teleport, inflict a condi, remove a condi, block the next attack, manage your trade posts for you, automatically buy gems during lower than average price, etc all on the same skill. I'm obviously exaggerating but you get the point.

Meanwhile renegade skills generally just do one thing. Heroic command? It gives you might. That's it. Orders from above? Gives some alacrity. That's all it does.

If Renegade actually had the versatility to their kit that other professions where given, it would actually be pretty decent. Combined with the recent retribution traitline buffs, it might even be top tier. But it's not, so that's that.

[Catchyfx.5768]

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:The design isn't actually that awful, it's just "underloaded".

If you look at other elite specs from PoF, you will notice their new abilities all do 3-5 things. Deal damage, remove a boon, teleport, inflict a condi, remove a condi, block the next attack, manage your trade posts for you, automatically buy gems during lower than average price, etc all on the same skill. I'm obviously exaggerating but you get the point.

Meanwhile renegade skills generally just do one thing. Heroic command? It gives you might. That's it. Orders from above? Gives some alacrity. That's all it does.

If Renegade actually had the versatility to their kit that other professions where given, it would actually be pretty decent. Combined with the recent retribution traitline buffs, it might even be top tier. But it's not, so that's that.

It is simpliest class. You got 5 Wells that you can destroy and they can attack only on 1 target at time. BUT you get Protection if traited. Glint is still better in design Stunbreak,blind, reveal+Fury Lot of spells do lot of things. But summons :/

[DonArkanio.6419]

Renegade Utility skills would be great if they were actually a part of the core class. Simple mechanic - easy access and overall interesting concept for a core legend.Unfrotunately as an elite spec, Renegade for me feels very mechanically underwhelming. I don't need abilites doing 4 things at once, just make it interesting to use and it would be already great!

[narcx.3570]

@Buran.3796 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

From a pve perspective. I don't play pvp, only wvw/pve.

Ok, then from a PvE perspective I'll say that the balance patch from May 16 is what made condi Revenant suitable to raids: Renegade isn't but a moderate buff in numbers.

It was top dps on release day tho, it's just short bow wasn't usable then. But then anet was like, whoops, and nerfed Lasting Legacy so, so fast. Then it was still a solid pick, but super boring to play--mace/axe/axe, channel EtD, zzzzzzz....

But then they buffed short bow which not only made up for the Lasting Legacy nerfs but made it MUCH more fun (subjective.) SB gets a lot of hate, but it's feels super good to use in a fight, imo... The skills are really rewarding. To move it out of the subjective and into the objective, 3/4 of it's skills are worth it to cast (energy to dps wise.) The only other weapon combo that has that much efficiency is mace/axe (also 3/4.)

[Absconditus.6804]

Overall I were pretty happy with Renegade from the start. I find the ability to throw these spirits down refreshing and it's helpful as a support-healer to be able to have two stances to swap between that allows you to be anywhere and still perform support tasks somewhere at a distance. I also quite liked Ritualist in Guild Wars, and this has so far the strongest resemblance to that, so that may of course make me like and forgive it a bit more.

I do at the same time still feel like it's a somewhat flawed elite in how I think the spirits should never have been killable or at the very least not interruptable. I still find that aspect of the elite to be super clunky and straight up annoying. I also think that every spirit should have a Combo Field as well, to at least give spirits like Razorclaw perhaps some use when not running a conditions oriented build (—to be honest, Razorclaw could do with some minor addition to make it function with Power-centered builds; make it channel out some Fury perhaps, basically anything to actually give it some use when not running a Condition build). The whole valid path to target issue is also just straight up idiotic, there should be absolutely no reason that it should need a valid path to target. It should straight up function like a well with a targetable entity spawned above it. Why this has yet to be adjusted/fixed is almost infuriating after all this time. I'd love for the dev(s) behind Renegade to give one good reason (aside from "technical difficulties") for them needing a valid path to target; you can't teleport on to them, they don't move, they are stationary with a radius that you can quickly move out of, as they are, you can interrupt and/or kill them rather quickly. What genuine reason do they need a valid path to target for? I can't see how it would be due to technical limitations. Create a well, spawn a centered entity tied to the well that can be targeted, if entity dies, remove well and entity, if timer runs out, remove well and entity, if entity is interrupted flag well to not do anything for the x time the interrupt lasts. There must be ways to program it? Or better yet, remove the ability to target and interrupt our spirits, make them take massively reduced damage, and let us throw them up on any surface, like any other class with wells, so they can be used effectively in areas like World vs. World.

I don't know, I still don't think the elite is terrible. I liked it from the start and still have great fun playing with it. But the same core flaws it had that bothered me at release are still there after all this time.

[Excursion.9752]

I've been playing this as a support role in fractals for a little while and my complaints is the energy costs and the ability to disrupt / knockdown the spirits. They are spirits not physical people / objects that can be touched or interacted with. Which brings me to my next rub Darkrazor's Daring needs to provide longer stability more than 1 -2 seconds and I would like to see it pass to the group as well.

I will not speak about the state of this in PvP or WvW because I do not do such things. As for a support Fractal class they are pretty fun to play and have in your group if they know what they are doing.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

The problem is that most classes and specs are designed with dueling in mind. Things like scourge and renegade aren't and follow a more traditional backline role of tradition mmo's. It translates fine for pve, but for pvp it is trash. Scourge lucks out on providing extremely beneficial things like a high health pool, corrupts, condis, and massive damage (in regards to pvp). Renegade suffers further only because the added health and cc succeptibility of the spirits keeps it from being in yet another game mode, wvw.

I dont think renegade is bad, I just don't think its tailored to the game as a whole. Against npc's and ai's in pve and fractals and stuff it performs extremely well.

[Arkantos.7460]

renegade just sks at pvp ...I dont understand why rev dont get a pvp viable legend ... the traits maybe gets a bit synergy ...BUTall utility skill are the same ... thats horrible ,every other legend has different skills in mechanic, but kalla ...pathetic just interuppt summons and they are done .....shortbow would be nice with some defense and would be nice if skills would not be so unfair ... u cant shot behind you like dragonhunter ..... and a revert ,multishoot on #3 ... skill #2 doesnt even hit NORMAL WALKING TARGETS ... i feel betrayed by anet like many others who bought the expansion

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Kodiak.3281 said:Traits are a DPS increase and the new Legend will add DPS in a 5 man party over Jalis.

Over Shiro. Jails isnt the preferred option for non Kalla condi rev anymore.

Short Bow gives us a ranged option on PvE encounters were melee isn't an option (IE: boss target will evade all melee attacks kinda scenario). It's not going to replace Mallyx or M/A.

Shortbow is integral to condi renegade damage rotations; it’s not just for long range options. Additionally it’s actually stronger than mace/axe on large enough targets (but the pair of mace/axe + shortbow is always stronger than just camping one or the other).

[otto.5684]

Is renegade is the most poorly designed elite? Abosolutely. I do play it, but it is the exact opposite word of smooth. PvP exposes its issues. Poorly functioning sustainability, gimmicky weapon, easily destroyable summons, no mobility and heavy energy costs. through the disguise of large numbers, you can hide these issues in PvE (or any issues). In PvP you are exposed and thus it does not remotely work.

It needs major redesign to be a fairly balanced. I suspect we will never see that, again cuz high numbers in PvE mask it’s issues.

[narcx.3570]

@"otto.5684" said:Is renegade is the most poorly designed elite? Abosolutely. I do play it, but it is the exact opposite word of smooth. PvP exposes its issues. Poorly functioning sustainability, gimmicky weapon, easily destroyable summons, no mobility and heavy energy costs. through the disguise of large numbers, you can hide these issues in PvE (or any issues). In PvP you are exposed and thus it does not remotely work.

To be fair, I would say that Mirage, Scourge, and Firebrand are worse designed elites than Renegade... Especially for PvP.

Like, yes, Renegade is terrible in PvP. That's bottom line. It doesn't work because the entire trait line brings nothing desirable for this game mode. Maybe if Spirits were invulnerable you could make a case for point control, but they're not so it sucks.

But from a design point of view, Mirage, Scourge, and to a lesser degree, Support FB completely ruined the game mode for most people. You have a class (Mirage) that for over a year could only be countered by another better mirage in the roaming/decapping part of the game. Like if they had a mirage and you didn't, gg. And then you had Scourge, which was so dominating in point control that it made any other class that thrived on it completely irrelevant (like meditrapper). And then, then, you had support FB which just piled on to the whole making team fighting un-fun. So for a year you had to either fight a Mirage and all his BS on the points, or goto a team fight and deal with a Scourge/FB duo that took forever to kill because of the pure spammable, uncontrollable defense couple with scourges ability to ruin anyone who touches the point from a far with the push of 3 buttons.

Now yeah, these classes have been reeled in a little bit, but the new metagame is still super un-fun and they're all still way too good at what they do compared to the other specs. And that's because anet took the things that were strong with those classes and turned them up to 11. It's not good design to say, look at a Core Bunker Guard and go, "Yeah, that's good... But what if they could spam those boons constantly?" Or like, "Yeah, we like that necro's have a monopoly on boon corruption, but what if we made it so every button on their keyboard did it?"

Obviously as Rev players, it's pretty infuriating since we got literally nothing... But, like, from a design pov, Renegade's not the problem, the other classes are. Would the community be happy if Renegade was as completely BS in PvP as Mirage? Where every game is just an endless string of escalatingly unfun tactics?

Same goes for WvW... There's a reasonif you join a squad that it's 1/3 scourges, 1/3 fb's, and a 1/3 Sbk/mesmer/ranger mix. These specs pushed the pirate ship meta to new levels of stupidity and now every keep siege is just hundreds of flashing shade circles and staff marks covering the top of every wall. Zzzzzzz.

Oh, and, from a design point of view, Deadeye is also just the worst. You take a cheese class like Thief, which can be countered by smart usage of reveal (which is not a widely available or spammable skill in the first place) and then give them an elite spec that just let's them straight remove reveal and restealth on a charge. Come on. That's like middle-school mentality of two kids just making up powers.

Renegade may not work in competitive game modes, but at least it didn't ruin them.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

IMO Kalla needs to stay as a PvE legend. The design is terrible and if it became more functional in PvP it would be another cancerous giant AoE spam build. Soulcleave's Summit is disgustingly OP and if its functionality ever becomes more usable in PvP settings, it will get hardcore nerfed. I'd rather they just focus their energy on making the shortbow more viable in PvP settings, as well as tending to the core class.

[otto.5684]

@narcx.3570 There is a difference between out performing and poorly designed. Example mirage was outperforming, but it is very well designed. I think mirage is the best designed elite in PoF, from athetictics to smooth performance. Balance wise, it has issues, but for the most part it works well in PvE and a bit too well in PvP.

Renegade on other hand... does not. It has static, highly vulnerable summons, no mobility or reliable sustainability. Tacked on supporting skills that do not really fit with the other utilities. It has energy galore issues. A weapon that has issues against most PvE content and PvP content. It just does not work. If it was not for Mallyx line and utilities, mace and a static buff of 15% condi damage and 250 ferocity, renegade would not be useable in PvE either.

And honestly, PvP is the stress test for functionality. If something falls to work completely in PvP, due to design issues, it just doesn’t. I can slam huge multipliers on it, to make look like it is works fine in PvE. But reality is it is not.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@otto.5684 said:A weapon that has issues against most PvE content and PvP content. It just does not work. If it was not for Mallyx line and utilities, mace and a static buff of 15% condi damage and 250 ferocity, renegade would not be useable in PvE either.

This is just flat out incorrect. Shortbow is integral to all PvE condi renegade rotations and you gimp yourselfby not using it. To say that it has issues in most PvE content is just wrong. And as mentioned in my above post it outperforms mace as a “standalone” weapon once the hitbox gets big enough.

And don’t discount Kalla or Citadel Bombardment, both add dps as well

[otto.5684]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@otto.5684 said:A weapon that has issues against most PvE content and PvP content. It just does not work. If it was not for Mallyx line and utilities, mace and a static buff of 15% condi damage and 250 ferocity, renegade would not be useable in PvE either.

This is just flat out incorrect. Shortbow is integral to all PvE condi renegade rotations and you kitten yourselfby not using it. To say that it has issues in most PvE content is just wrong. And as mentioned in my above post it outperforms mace as a “standalone” weapon once the hitbox gets big enough.

And don’t discount Kalla or Citadel Bombardment, both add dps as well

I did not say SB is not part of the dps PvE rotation. And this has nothing to do with my post or what I am pointing to. But since you brought it up, good luck hitting anything in PvP.

[narcx.3570]

@otto.5684 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@otto.5684 said:A weapon that has issues against most PvE content and PvP content. It just does not work. If it was not for Mallyx line and utilities, mace and a static buff of 15% condi damage and 250 ferocity, renegade would not be useable in PvE either.

This is just flat out incorrect. Shortbow is integral to all PvE condi renegade rotations and you kitten yourselfby not using it. To say that it has issues in most PvE content is just wrong. And as mentioned in my above post it outperforms mace as a “standalone” weapon once the hitbox gets big enough.

And don’t discount Kalla or Citadel Bombardment, both add dps as well

I did not say SB is not part of the dps PvE rotation. And this has nothing to do with my post or what I am pointing to. But since you brought it up, good luck hitting anything in PvP.

To be fair, 7shot could fire heat seeking missiles and you still wouldn't be able to hit anyone because you're going to have their entire team riding your kitten into the ground the second they see that renegade icon.

And Mirage... I mean, yeah it's smooth... And it has some fun skills (axe 2/3/jaunt) and the Illusions dps rotation is one of the most fun in the game... But like, they still decided to design a class who's whole shtick is to do MORE damage by playing defensively. This is fine in a vacuum, but they had to realize at some point that it would be in a permanent state of OP for competitive play since other classes have to pick either offensive or defensive play. Like, most classes (especially rev) have to choose between the two to varying degrees; of course the one class that does both at the same time with literally every single skill is going to outperform--no matter how you tune the numbers. It's the same reason release-strength Fullcounter caused so much QQ. Good design would have been to at least add some resource management into Mirage play, be it by limiting access to endurance regen or in clone generation... Something.

I would say clone generation would have been an excellent candidate to balance mirage around tho. Since they have the most clone dps output of all their specs, it would make sense for them to have to least ability to generate clones. But instead, it has their strongest/quickest/most constant clone generation, which makes it really overwhelming to try to counter since it doesn't even matter if you cleave down their clones, they just insta resummon them with axe2/jaunt/traits. All in all, it should be more about rewarding good clone management and less about just spamming everything at once cuz nothing matters.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@otto.5684 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@otto.5684 said:A weapon that has issues against most PvE content and PvP content. It just does not work. If it was not for Mallyx line and utilities, mace and a static buff of 15% condi damage and 250 ferocity, renegade would not be useable in PvE either.

This is just flat out incorrect. Shortbow is integral to all PvE condi renegade rotations and you kitten yourselfby not using it. To say that it has issues in most PvE content is just wrong. And as mentioned in my above post it outperforms mace as a “standalone” weapon once the hitbox gets big enough.

And don’t discount Kalla or Citadel Bombardment, both add dps as well

I did not say SB is not part of the dps PvE rotation. And this has nothing to do with my post or what I am pointing to. But since you brought it up, good luck hitting anything in PvP.

You literally said “shortbow has issues with most PvE content” and I’m calling you on it. Idc about the pvp part you’re not wrong about that, but claiming the weapon has issues in most PvE is just incorrect. Same with claiming that mallyx/mace/axe and renegade modifiers are the real reason condi renegade is functional is also incorrect and ignores the important dps contributions from Kalla/shortbow/citadel bombardment

[phokus.8934]

Renegade was pretty clearly not designed with PvP in mind. But with regards to PvE (open world, fractals, and raids), it does extremely well with condi and support.

We're probably all a bit jaded by having to stay with Herald since day one for PvP and WvW (to some extent), but I suppose anything can change for the better with a rework. But I'm not holding my breath we'll see one anytime soon or at all.

[VixusIrine.9013]

It's kinda funny since Renegade's release it was Herald that ended up getting the rework last year and a pretty good one at that too. I like Renegade but I do a lot of pvp and wvwvw so naturally the spec also annoys me a lot as well. Personally I'd still be for a rework, especially around the summons themselves. They're static and boring and might as well just be wells in their current state. I'd prefer to give them the necro minion treatment. Make them actual summons that fight with you and turn their current effects into secondaries with associated energy costs. Although I don't think we'll see anything like that since anet has been trying to get away from summons lately with the current reworks of spirit weapons and whatnot.

[Raknar.4735]

Kalla's design is pretty bad. The visual effects are good, but the functionality of everything is lacking. It is only being used because it has high numbers.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

@VixusIrine.9013 said:It's kinda funny since Renegade's release it was Herald that ended up getting the rework last year and a pretty good one at that too. I like Renegade but I do a lot of pvp and wvwvw so naturally the spec also annoys me a lot as well. Personally I'd still be for a rework, especially around the summons themselves. They're static and boring and might as well just be wells in their current state. I'd prefer to give them the necro minion treatment. Make them actual summons that fight with you and turn their current effects into secondaries with associated energy costs. Although I don't think we'll see anything like that since anet has been trying to get away from summons lately with the current reworks of spirit weapons and whatnot.

This. I know a lot of people don’t like ai, but this would’ve been great. When I read that it was going to be a summon spec, I was like alright! Then it came out that the skills are static and immovable. ?

[Buran.3796]

@VixusIrine.9013 said:It's kinda funny since Renegade's release it was Herald that ended up getting the rework last year and a pretty good one at that too. I like Renegade but I do a lot of pvp and wvwvw so naturally the spec also annoys me a lot as well. Personally I'd still be for a rework, especially around the summons themselves. They're static and boring and might as well just be wells in their current state. I'd prefer to give them the necro minion treatment. Make them actual summons that fight with you and turn their current effects into secondaries with associated energy costs. Although I don't think we'll see anything like that since anet has been trying to get away from summons lately with the current reworks of spirit weapons and whatnot.

They tried to downgrade power Herald as much as they could in order to make Renegade somewhat appealing in PvP, but failed miserably. So at the end whe have a Renegade which doesn't work in PvP and a Herald which works but is duller to play than a year ago.

[Knighthonor.4061]

@SkylightMoon.2098 said:I've played around 100 games AT LEAST in ranked, relatively high elo(1700) and haven't seen 1 renegade so far. The few high elo revenant players I talk to have all told me renegade is total garbage, lack of sustain, utility, and just all around inferior to the standard revenant build for pvp which is already somewhat underpowered.

I'd guess part of renegades problems stems from the core problems that still exist with revenant as a class. It needs a bit of a revamp imo.

You are making the same mistake a lot of Revenants on this forum are making. Renegade is good. The problem isn't the Renegade. The problem is the Revenant Class mechanics. The energy system and the fact you cant mod and match skills for your build. You stuck in this premade layout. Renegade skills work well in pve. It's when the foe you fighting is not as predictable is when you start to have problems. Such as WvW and SPvP.