I think expansions hurt the game.....

[Sylent.3165]

I keep reading people want expansions. I fully understand the "why" people want them it seems to make sense most the reasons why people want them.

And here is the but. We got 2 new expansions. When hot came out we got 4 maps. (Well 3 with dragons stand just being a meta event). This grossly thinned population in other maps.

We then got pof with 4 maps also hugely thinning population in other maps.

So many people think the game is dying because we see less and less players. We still have a huge population but these expansions with new maps at once I think spread the players out way too much.

When we got living world season 2 I think dry top and silverwastes was much better than any expansion gw2 could ever come out with. It helped keep the community better together with offering multiple things to do in maps with groups working together with goals.

Just saying, I.hope we never get another expansion. To fund the game maybe add mini expansions. Maybe something along the lines of multiple stories per a map like season 2 for cheaper prices like 10 bucks (to those who want to complain about charging remember it's a company, they need money. Just because you bought the first avengers movie do you think they would of kept making the movies if they didn't plan on selling the others? Video games require money to)

I dunno, just my 2 cents.

[Vayne.8563]

First of all POF had five maps. Secondly I don't think the population thinned as much as you think. Plenty of people who bought those games, were new to the franchise and had to level, even though some undoubtedly used the level 80 boost on their first character. Of course many used the boost and still made new characters to learn the game.

Expansions bring more new players to the game than any living story episode would and more new players is always better for veterans.

[Ashantara.8731]

LW is adding maps, too, so by your definition, LW seasons shouldn't exist either.

Nobody (except you) wants to play on the same old maps forever. The Silverwastes get boring quickly when you do them often, just like any other content does. I don't think reducing the number of maps would pose a long-term solution.

Of course it would be great to see content on existing maps extended, I am all for that. But no more fantastic expansions like PoF with a whole new corner of the world to explore? - Terrible idea.

[Randulf.7614]

Maps did not thin out at all. In fact expansions brought new people and lapsed players back filling them even more.

The conclusion and post LS4 has shown the first real signs of map thinning. There are various reasons for that.

But grossly thinned out maps did not happen with the arrival of expansions . I’m fact PoF helped boost core maps when mounts were allowed everywhere

As said above - LW provides existing players bite sized stuff to do for a while. Expansions bring in new players across the board.

Anyway, conversation flogged to death at this point.

[Omega.6801]

One problem LS's have is that they mostly appeal to ppl already invested in the franchise. It keeps ppl playing who are more or less familiar and happy about the game while not bringing many new players in. Expansions however bring in new players because it gives players an opportunity to start in content not familiar to anyone, even if some of the veterans haven been playing for 7 years at this point. Sure, LS maps and stories are new content to vets as well, but an expansion is a far larger and rellevant bulk of content thatn a single LS episode.I'm not saying that GW2 absolutely needs an expansion now or the end is nigh, but I am convinced that expansions bring in more new blood to the game than any LS will ever do.

On a side note: I think the "doom and gloom" ppl are regurgitating hasn't much to do with empty maps. The thinning out of maps has been an issue since they removed rewards from starter zones and focused the endgame on very few places(WvW, PvP, Raids, some Lvl 80 maps). On the other hand ANet implemented an lfg system, which I think works fine beside beeing a bit cluttered, which helps find likeminded players or at least players working on the same content(farms, achievements, metas, stories, instances etc.). The recent surge of contempt mostly comes from a lack of comunication between ANet and the players as far as I see it.

[Brother.1504]

MMORPG players expect expansions. Gamers that choose to invest 1000s of hours into these games will never be happy without expansions. It goes with the territory. Anet knows this but seems stuck in a divergent creative mentality. Most times it’s better to give the customer what they expect, especially true with MMOs.

Not dissing on the Living Story stuff, I enjoy the episodes. But let’s be honest here, an expansion would be much more exciting.

[Hashberry.4510]

'The game only looks like its dying because there is too much content'. Thanks for the chuckle.

[Aaralyna.3104]

@Brother.1504 said:MMORPG players expect expansions. Gamers that choose to invest 1000s of hours into these games will never be happy without expansions. It goes with the territory. Anet knows this but seems stuck in a divergent creative mentality. Most times it’s better to give the customer what they expect, especially true with MMOs.

Not dissing on the Living Story stuff, I enjoy the episodes. But let’s be honest here, an expansion would be much more exciting.

Depends on the mmo player. This is my 1st mmo that has paid expansions and calling it that. I have played several mmo's before (f2p ones) which gw2 is not (you buy an expac to get full game). I don't need a paid expac either but what we do need is a big content drop at once... It could be like 4 episodes of living world at once with a fractal/raid and something for the pvp/wvw among us. Thats exact same as what an expac is (ok they did add elite specs and an interesting mastery line but to be honest balance already is awefull so new elite spec we probably don't see and what mastery could they possibly add that is as unique as gliding or mounts). Who knows saga is exact that but content dropped out in periods instead of in 1 go, which makes it feel like the ordinary living world. And ofcourse content dropped in short periods (1 or a half map at a time) doesnt make players play long on those maps. Players always instantly rush to complete the achievements and are out again (partly coz they wanna be the 1st, or they are scared map empties too early and they can forget getting them achievements etc..)

And question is, would players really invest in an expansion with the doubts we are given about the future of the game? Everything is so predatory gemstore based as of late as well, that definetly puts me off considering to even buy any expac would it be announced. I can't recommend the game no more to friends as I feel the game starts to get milked and that to me means all red alarms.

[Game of Bones.8975]

The more content a game has the more people will view it as a successful company.

I happen to look forward to expansions. The expansions are more than mere locations on a map; they have opened up new aspects of professions, methods travel, along with Legendary weapons, and story content.

I would rather see fewer weapon/armor skins if it meant bringing content out on a regular basis.

But that's just my $0.03.

[zealex.9410]

You forgot to mention all the ppl pof and hot brought to the game. Idk how thin you remember the maps after hot or pof but i sure dont remember my friendlist being as thin as is now.

[Vayne.8563]

@Hashberry.4510 said:'The game only looks like its dying because there is too much content'. Thanks for the chuckle.

Except the game doesn't look like it's dying. Not by quarterly reports. Not by the amount of metas being done, even though there's an ever increasing number of metas. I mean it's simple math. The more zones you add, the more you divide the playerbase. But stuff is still being done all over the game.

[Ayrilana.1396]

Expansions are nothing but a massive content drop compared to seasons/sagas are roughly the same amount of content except released over the span it would have taken to do an expansion. Both methods have their positives and negatives but I don’t believe either are actually negative for the game.

[Ghetx.1752]

@"Sylent.3165" said:I keep reading people want expansions. I fully understand the "why" people want them it seems to make sense most the reasons why people want them.

And here is the but. We got 2 new expansions. When hot came out we got 4 maps. (Well 3 with dragons stand just being a meta event). This grossly thinned population in other maps.

We then got pof with 4 maps also hugely thinning population in other maps.

So many people think the game is dying because we see less and less players. We still have a huge population but these expansions with new maps at once I think spread the players out way too much.

When we got living world season 2 I think dry top and silverwastes was much better than any expansion gw2 could ever come out with. It helped keep the community better together with offering multiple things to do in maps with groups working together with goals.

Just saying, I.hope we never get another expansion. To fund the game maybe add mini expansions. Maybe something along the lines of multiple stories per a map like season 2 for cheaper prices like 10 bucks (to those who want to complain about charging remember it's a company, they need money. Just because you bought the first avengers movie do you think they would of kept making the movies if they didn't plan on selling the others? Video games require money to)

I dunno, just my 2 cents.

It happens to every game.

Example : With vanilla game,you have 5 maps.You have 5 k players (dream on,but lets say its 5 k) on 5 maps.New expansion gets released,and u get new 5 maps.Now instead of 5 k players on 5 maps,you have 5 k players on 10 maps and so on...

HoT expansion was the best thing that happened to this game.No expansion ever is going to beat it.

With HoT we got whole different gameplay,basically different game,with beautiful AB map,mastery system,elite specs,new armor stat combinations etc,events that actually felt rewarding,so rewarding people do them to this day,over any of the PoF events.

We got so many things with HoT, that PoF felt like minor update.

I remember release of Bloodstone Fen and Ember Bay,so many people did those 2 maps,you literally had 5 lfg's at any given time for weeks after release.

Now we have Bjora Marches meta,with 2 active maps during population peak.

You don't need to give people 30 gold a hour rewarding system,but you also shouldn't give them 5 gold a hour either.

Anyone who says they don't play for rewards they lie,and 15-20 full lfgs during whole Halloween lab farm says otherwise.

Sure you can play new stuff for fun,few times over,but after some time you realize you ain't getting nothing and you only losing gold by not playing AB,TD,DS or SW.

[Hot Boy.7138]

the expansions phenomenally increased the fun factor for me. I've played since beta, and as long as anet released more xpacs in the future, i'll continue playing. If they decide no more xpacs, I won't invest any more in this game.

[Rubedo.8769]

Personally I never understood the whole "omg we have to have expansions or the game sucks!" mentality. Personally I'd rather have the content released periodically for free than spend $40+ on an expansion, i'll support the game through the gem store as they release things I like there. They said their going to give expansion level content over the course of the new Sagas, we're one episdoe in and people are screaming that the sky is falling. We should see how this plays out and if we get that level of content from the sagas and its free as long as your logging in then screw it why wouldn't it be a good thing.

[zealex.9410]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Hashberry.4510 said:'The game only looks like its dying because there is too much content'. Thanks for the chuckle.

Except the game doesn't look like it's dying. Not by quarterly reports. Not by the amount of metas being done, even though there's an ever increasing number of metas. I mean it's simple math. The more zones you add, the more you divide the playerbase. But stuff is still being done all over the game.

quarterly reports only talk about money each game makes it doesnt take into acount how many ppl are playing or how hard is anet monetising their game.

[Vayne.8563]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Hashberry.4510 said:'The game only looks like its dying because there is too much content'. Thanks for the chuckle.

Except the game doesn't look like it's dying. Not by quarterly reports. Not by the amount of metas being done, even though there's an ever increasing number of metas. I mean it's simple math. The more zones you add, the more you divide the playerbase. But stuff is still being done all over the game.

quarterly reports only talk about money each game makes it doesnt take into acount how many ppl are playing or how hard is anet monetising their game.

Which changes nothing I said. If I have a store that's making enough money to get by and it continues to make enough money, it doesn't matter if that money comes from a few people or a whole lot of people. The first shop I ran sold everything cheap and we had a ton of customers. The second shop I ran (which I didn't stay in long) sold everything for full price and sold a lot less. The one that went out of business first was the one with the greater number of customers. And none of that matters either.

What does matter is that there are still quite a few people playing this game, enough so that events are done all over the place, even though there's an ever increasing number of them. I'm in the game all over the place and I'm seeing this with my own eyes. So of the income is stable, the income is stable. The population may fluctuate. There's a lot of bad press now but there won't necessarily always be. The ebbs and flows in this industry are completely unpredictable, like when someone reviewed Guild Wars 2 right before the Bless Online launch tanked. There's just no telling what will happen.

Both Titan and Everquest Next have been cancelled, many games have been delayed so long that they've become parodies of themselves, and Guild Wars 2 is still chugging along. You may not believe it...but that doesn't make it false.

[Tyncale.1629]

Expansions are so much more exiting then LW episodes when it comes to the world getting larger. With an expansion you get the feeling that a new large themed part of the world is opened up, also because the maps actually connect with eachother. The maps also feel more natural. LW maps are randomly strewn across the map and are built to fit the Meta and the storyline at that point.

We have some cool LW maps but they barely feel part of the larger world to me. HoT maps do, also because they are actually connected to SIlverwastes/Core map and so do PoF maps though we sure could use a connection between Fields of Ruin and Desert Highlands. Never understood why they did not do that, it is things like that that give me the feeling that the Vision has been lost at Anet.

To me LW maps were "extra maps" to cater to the ongoing storyline: and some of them were really good. Now they are apparently the only way to expand the World and they are simply not good enough for that.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

I don't think expansions hurt the game, but actually having too many maps (and the introduction of raids, while simultaneously ignoring dungeons) hurt the game. They could have just as easily just built all the LS story maps into the current Tyria core maps, or HoT and PoF maps, thereby forcing players back into maps and expanded on the dungeons at the same time. They would have saved a kitten ton of resources and time doing this. Instead they spread themselves too thin.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I agree that expansions hurting the game. When they fused HoT and PoF together into a single expo, I've noticed a total revival of the game in PvE, because people who were locked out of certain content before now had access to it. I had a feeling that the player base had been significantly fractured by the expo split for some time, but I didn't realise quite how bad it was until seeing it with my own eyes

As for the merit of expos, really all they bring that's particularly interesting beyond LW is elite specs. I had some issues with how LW introduces maps compared to expansions, but this seems to be getting better in LS5 with a more linear approach.

As long as we get new elite specs, I'll be happy with it. In fact, I have many problems with how HoT and PoF introduced these mechanics into lore, and I think that if implemented gradually via the Living World we could see much better lore integration, where players slowly become what they're meant to be instead of just having an entire subclass pop into existance like magic with no explanation.

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:I don't think expansions hurt the game, but actually having too many maps (and the introduction of raids, while simultaneously ignoring dungeons) hurt the game. They could have just as easily just built all the LS story maps into the current Tyria core maps, or HoT and PoF maps, thereby forcing players back into maps and expanded on the dungeons at the same time. They would have saved a kitten ton of resources and time doing this. Instead they spread themselves too thin.They tried to do this in the first few years of the game and it went very badly. Not only because it was temporary content since players couldn't see what the maps were like before they were modified, but also because players felt like ArenaNet had ruined the maps, such as Kessex Hills and Lion's Arch, which previously were beautiful maps full of character and spirit, there's even an NPC convo about it in Lion's Arch.

The problem with modifying old maps is it slowly makes them less unique, not more unique. Because it forces them to fit into the overarching narative instead of being their own little world locked in time for players to experience.

And I don';t think the population is spread too thin, I think that too many maps just lack incentive to return to them. Even many Central Tyria maps are unfrequented, for example compare something like Timberline Falls with Cursed Shore. If you look at all the high traffic maps in the game you will find that they have some incentive for players to be there, especially the HoM maps which are heavily replayed.

--This game actually has a massive F2P population but you'd never know it because its not very distributed. But go to the starter areas sometimes and see how many people you can count without masteries or titles etc. I suspect that when the game eventually goes into maintanance mode they'll just release everything F2P and profit heavily from gemsales for a few more years after that. They've already admitted that boxed sales and the expansion model in particular don't provide much profit anymore and basically aren't worth it.

[b k.1648]

@Ghetx.1752 said:HoT expansion was the best thing that happened to this game.No expansion ever is going to beat it.

With HoT we got whole different gameplay,basically different game,with beautiful AB map,mastery system,elite specs,new armor stat combinations etc,events that actually felt rewarding,so rewarding people do them to this day,over any of the PoF events.

We got so many things with HoT, that PoF felt like minor update.

I get why people say this, because of the valuable stuff you can get from the HoT meta-events. However, I've always felt that HoT was tiny because it takes up so little space on the map, and I almost never go back there now that I've completed all the achievements. I've found Elona to offer much more to an exploration-oriented player by comparison, and I find myself going back there all the time.

Different kinds of players enjoy different kinds of content, and I can understand that some people like gold and they'll go where you get more of it. It doesn't really interest me though; I get bored of farming really quickly, so I need to wander around.

[Cameron.6450]

@Ben K.6238 said:

@Ghetx.1752 said:HoT expansion was the best thing that happened to this game.No expansion ever is going to beat it.

With HoT we got whole different gameplay,basically different game,with beautiful AB map,mastery system,elite specs,new armor stat combinations etc,events that actually felt rewarding,so rewarding people do them to this day,over any of the PoF events.

We got so many things with HoT, that PoF felt like minor update.

I get why people say this, because of the valuable stuff you can get from the HoT meta-events. However, I've always felt that HoT was tiny because it takes up so little space on the map, and I almost never go back there now that I've completed all the achievements. I've found Elona to offer much more to an exploration-oriented player by comparison, and I find myself going back there all the time.

Different kinds of players enjoy different kinds of content, and I can understand that some people like gold and they'll go where you get more of it. It doesn't really interest me though; I get bored of farming really quickly, so I need to wander around.

People don't say HoT felt like more because of rewards (which weren't necessarily there at first). That might be the case for comparison of specific metas, but you're not really giving HoT the credit it deserves if you only look at the maps it launched with, or just consider it as a way to make gold from the metas. Like the post you quoted listed, HoT introduced a number of systems that completely changed how the game worked, PoF mostly just added in new aspects to the existing systems that were put in place in HoT. Not that those additions were lacklustre at all, it's just that the first set of elite specs will always be more exciting and feel like a greater change than the second set, or the third set (fingers crossed) etc.

[Thornwolf.9721]

So this is the embodiment of what is wrong with out community, people want it all for free. But if the content his free they will monetize other avenues of the game and thus we begin to get the predatory gem-store sales. Expansions help to prohibit that because they will earn money off of it, but guild wars 2 is now going almost full free to play in its scheme which means they will triple down on the gem-store and it is the communities fault.

• The community advertised to A-net about mounts and mount skins. Said they'd pay~
• The community said they would pay for build templates
• The community said they would buy armor skins
• The community is against change or true new content, and resist it at every turn then whine when we don't get any.
• The community doesn't want challenge

This isn't true for everyone but the vocal minority (Like the OP) Who whine and bitch that they have to pay for an expansion are insane, the game won't bring people in with content patches. Expansions show life and growth and our two expansions did bring a good chunk of new players to the game, going full on Tera online Free to play with a game that has no real progression system is a horrible idea. We need E-specs, and other aspects to be excited about and living world just doesn't provide and from the sound of it WONT provide these things.

build templates are not expansions level content, nor is cooking 500 but they are trying to push the narrative that they are. New maps and masteries have been in the living world since HoT so nothing new there and even a new mount wouldn't be expansion exclusive. This whole living world over expansions was tried years ago and it failed then, it sure as shit will fail now. Nothing has changed outside of the fervent supporters of the game have moved on, the majority of our veteran players are removing themselves and just finding new games. Guild wars 2 no longer cares about maintaining players interest, its felt this way for a long time now as it seems to be geared more toward the new comers than the old time players. But Veteran players can be a boon to new players, they offer insight and a lot of the time show that a game is worth investing into because " Timmy over there has been here forever? And look how cool, and how epic he looks a long with how long he has stood with the game! I want to be that guy"~

The game has lost that, which is a shame because this is the story I wanted since launch. And It's becoming more and more apparent to me that there is some serious issues in the studio and more over issues with the game. Can they be fixed? Maybe. Will they? Probably not. Im pretty sure we will get the bare minimum to keep us engaged but once thats done, thats it. It seems to me that living world just doesn't cut it anymore and that a good chunk of the playerbase is tired of it, and needs more than simply some new map and mastery. We need more content for the gameplay not the gemstore, and not crafting but something we can use in the day to day loop of combat and or the end game which is fashion wars. (Which makes the game pay to win, if it is fashion wars for you. They are selling basically best in slot on the gemstore~ But the shills won't allow that to be a point of contention.)

[AliamRationem.5172]

@"Sylent.3165" said:I keep reading people want expansions. I fully understand the "why" people want them it seems to make sense most the reasons why people want them.

And here is the but. We got 2 new expansions. When hot came out we got 4 maps. (Well 3 with dragons stand just being a meta event). This grossly thinned population in other maps.

We then got pof with 4 maps also hugely thinning population in other maps.

So many people think the game is dying because we see less and less players. We still have a huge population but these expansions with new maps at once I think spread the players out way too much.

When we got living world season 2 I think dry top and silverwastes was much better than any expansion gw2 could ever come out with. It helped keep the community better together with offering multiple things to do in maps with groups working together with goals.

Just saying, I.hope we never get another expansion. To fund the game maybe add mini expansions. Maybe something along the lines of multiple stories per a map like season 2 for cheaper prices like 10 bucks (to those who want to complain about charging remember it's a company, they need money. Just because you bought the first avengers movie do you think they would of kept making the movies if they didn't plan on selling the others? Video games require money to)

I dunno, just my 2 cents.

So, what is the premise here? That GW2's population is so small that they can't even fill a map instance? It's mega-server. So unless we really don't have enough people to fill one map, how can you know how "thin" the population is? Yet you say it was "grossly" and "hugely" thinned?

[Goettel.4389]

I just think you're wrong OP.