Condi rev is insanely broken, when will Anet fix it?

[Waffler.1257]

Anet already had to nerf this build once because it was completely dominating PvP along with symbol brand and core necro, but apparently not a single soul from Anet actually plays WvW because they thought it was perfectly fine there and made every single nerf PvP only. This is despite the fact that condi rev is about 10x more broken in WvW than it ever was in PvP due to trailblazer stats which not only allow it to achieve high condition damage and duration, but also achieve bunker-like sustain with +vitality and +toughness. To add insult to injury, Rune of Tormenting is also available for WvW giving condi rev a further +50% torment duration AND heals the rev whenever they apply torment, which is all the time. It's not surprising that the ask price for a rune of tormenting went from 5 gold to 8.5 gold following the Feb. 25 patch. Can someone at Anet please do something about this? Small scale fights are complete cancer right now.

[Yasai.3549]

They can nerf Condi Rev after they nerf Stealth.

But in all seriousness : Condi Rev isn't the issue, Rune of Tormenting is.They should nerf Rune of Tormenting instead of seriously hamstringing Mallyx (again) to "tone it down"

WvW and PvP are two very different ball-games and should be balanced differently.

[Clownmug.8357]

No idea why the healing part of Rune of Tormenting doesn't have a cooldown, the duration part isn't a big deal since condi rev doesn't have many cover conditions anyways.

[Thornwolf.9721]

I mean personally I want them to focus on the CC issues, because in removing good chunks of cc-breaks they have effectively made it a ping-pong game of death. Where if you're not doing ping-pong and someone ELSE is killing em for you then you're the one being cheesed.

[aspirine.6852]

@"Yasai.3549" said:They can nerf Condi Rev after they nerf Stealth.

But in all seriousness : Condi Rev isn't the issue, Rune of Tormenting is.They should nerf Rune of Tormenting instead of seriously hamstringing Mallyx (again) to "tone it down"

WvW and PvP are two very different ball-games and should be balanced differently.

Once you see groups of condi revs in wvw it might need a nerf. So far I see them once in a while. Looks fine to me.

[lodjur.1284]

True Nature - Demon could stand getting nuked, but far the most egregious part of condi rev

600 radiusCan't be evadedCan't be blockedCan't be blindedAlmost instantNo animationComes with bonuses like the facet part and 15 might.

Also abyssal chill could stand a rework since it makes banish enchantment a bit over the top and is relatively useless otherwise. (tbh that entire tier could stand a rework abyssal chill is the only option there anyway).

Rest of condi rev is an l2p issue, it's aAlmost purely melee buildWith extremely poor stunbreaksVery limited stabilityOnly condi dmg and limited cover condis.Low mobility

Figuring out some way to counter it with whatever build/group setup you have shouldn't be impossible. There's a lot of weaknesses there to exploit.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

Personally I think condi revs are okay.I swap to a full anti-condi antitoxin runes + cleansing sigils build and I can fight them just fine.

Please nerf Necro first if anything needs nerf.Necro roamers are suddenly everywhere.I no longer feel like a rare pokemon.

[Deniara Devious.3948]

Condi revenants have been broken already long time ago and should be fixed asap, but I would argue that firebrand guardian and certain thief builds are even more broken in WvWvW.

[Aenaos.8160]

It's more of a Conditions issue than strictly Revenant or any other class. Maybe they should make a pass on balancing conditions first and gather some more data before attempting any class changes because even if they nerf Revenant to the ground now, that won't fix the underlying problem. Conditions seem to apply way too much damage even at a very low number of stacks and that ties in to the very nature of how this type of damage is designed in GW2. Here we start with the faulty axiom that both condition and power damage should be able to achieve the same level of burst otherwise players will focus on playing power builds only. The way DoT damage counter balances burst damage is by allowing for it to strike a larger number of targets, adding more utility and control aspects in abilities that apply such damage, or by making it exceptionally effective against certain types of targets. None of these intricacies exist in GW2's combat. We have power damage and we have the other power damage, condition, which attempts to do the work of burst damage via DoTs. Add to that the gear issue of condition damage builds being able to achieve effectiveness in dps by needing to invest in a lower number of attribute types than power builds thus leaving room for investing in defensive attributes too. It's a cluster kitten.

[bluberblasen.9684]

Anet should nerf for small scale:

• Condition Revs <------ priority 2
• Fire Guard <-------priority 2
• Core Necro <----- priority 1
• Thiefs ( better nerf movement before stealth ) <---- priority 1

[Stand The Wall.6987]

abyssal chill for some reason doesn't have an icd. even when it did pre mallyx rework it was bugged and didn't work.

[Junkpile.7439]

@bluberblasen.9684 said:Anet should nerf for small scale:

• Condition Revs <------ priority 2
• Fire Guard <-------priority 2
• Core Necro <----- priority 1
• Thiefs ( better nerf movement before stealth ) <---- priority 1

Core necro can't even use any skills because no stability

[Virdo.1540]

@lodjur.1284 said:True Nature - Demon could stand getting nuked, but far the most egregious part of condi rev

600 radiusCan't be evadedCan't be blockedCan't be blindedAlmost instantNo animationComes with bonuses like the facet part and 15 might.

Also abyssal chill could stand a rework since it makes banish enchantment a bit over the top and is relatively useless otherwise. (tbh that entire tier could stand a rework abyssal chill is the only option there anyway).

Rest of condi rev is an l2p issue, it's aAlmost purely melee buildWith extremely poor stunbreaksVery limited stabilityOnly condi dmg and limited cover condis.Low mobility

Figuring out some way to counter it with whatever build/group setup you have shouldn't be impossible. There's a lot of weaknesses there to exploit.

dont forget that true nature-demon almost always ping back shi* condis like cipple, vulvn , low stacked condis etc.

[Virdo.1540]

@Junkpile.7439 said:

@bluberblasen.9684 said:Anet should nerf for small scale:

• Condition Revs <------ priority 2
• Fire Guard <-------priority 2
• Core Necro <----- priority 1
• Thiefs ( better nerf movement before stealth ) <---- priority 1

Core necro can't even use any skills because no stability

but they can tank longer than u could ever stun.

[lodjur.1284]

@Virdo.1540 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:True Nature - Demon could stand getting nuked, but far the most egregious part of condi rev

600 radiusCan't be evadedCan't be blockedCan't be blindedAlmost instantNo animationComes with bonuses like the facet part and 15 might.

Also abyssal chill could stand a rework since it makes banish enchantment a bit over the top and is relatively useless otherwise. (tbh that entire tier could stand a rework abyssal chill is the only option there anyway).

Rest of condi rev is an l2p issue, it's aAlmost purely melee buildWith extremely poor stunbreaksVery limited stabilityOnly condi dmg and limited cover condis.Low mobility

Figuring out some way to counter it with whatever build/group setup you have shouldn't be impossible. There's a lot of weaknesses there to exploit.

dont forget that true nature-demon almost always ping back shi* condis like cipple, vulvn , low stacked condis etc.

Lucky you, for me it relatively often slams me with 30+ torment and 10+ burn, this is from people who basically just use it off CD

Even putting a little thought in it's use and cleansing around it makes it very easy to almost always hit high stacks (of there's any enemy condi players ofc)

[DeadlySynz.3471]

@Waffler.1257 said:Anet already had to nerf this build once because it was completely dominating PvP along with symbol brand and core necro, but apparently not a single soul from Anet actually plays WvW because they thought it was perfectly fine there and made every single nerf PvP only. This is despite the fact that condi rev is about 10x more broken in WvW than it ever was in PvP due to trailblazer stats which not only allow it to achieve high condition damage and duration, but also achieve bunker-like sustain with +vitality and +toughness. To add insult to injury, Rune of Tormenting is also available for WvW giving condi rev a further +50% torment duration AND heals the rev whenever they apply torment, which is all the time. It's not surprising that the ask price for a rune of tormenting went from 5 gold to 8.5 gold following the Feb. 25 patch. Can someone at Anet please do something about this? Small scale fights are complete cancer right now.

The mode isn't built around small scale fights and thus balance cannot be directed at it. In no way shape or form for any reason, whatsoever, ever should Anet balance around solo to 5 man fights (and I'd even wager up to 10 man fights). People who are using trailblazer are also doing it wrong. Conditions don't stay up long enough in a normal fight (lets call it 25+) to ever warrant using trailblazer. This post is an example of why Anet cannot listen to anything to do with small scale content when it comes to WvW.

But of course, if they didn't bugger around with power the way that they did, hammer revs or even support revs would be more desirable. So I suppose you could place the blame on all those people that complained about power damage (all those talking about solo to small scale fights) for the change? Pigeon-hole a class into a specific build is always a fantastic idea...

[KrHome.1920]

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:Personally I think condi revs are okay.I swap to a full anti-condi antitoxin runes + cleansing sigils build and I can fight them just fine.

Please nerf Necro first if anything needs nerf.Necro roamers are suddenly everywhere.I no longer feel like a rare pokemon.Condi Rev is okay. I win 99% of my condi rev encounters. Power shiro has been way more broken until february 25th. Condi rev is totally beatable with cleansing sigils (just enter the fight with your secondary weapon, let him stack 10 torment and swap weapon - profit!) while power shiro dominated every single power build in the game mode (wvw) for years.

Core bunker necro is a joke. I've fought dozens of them now and I just punch them for 30 seconds until they die. That's it. They can't even fight back. They can't run away. I don't even need to heal. They are a joke. Today I've beaten a duo of these. First I focussed the first one, stunned the second for 2 seconds, stomped the first one and then killed the second one.

I can't take anyone seriously who says core necro is broken. In wvw the bunker build was not even nerfed and it is obvious why. It's extremely weak there.

I've fought exactly one symbolbrand in wvw and this was a skilled player. The match was extremely close and I lost because I facetanked him for 3 seconds in his symbols - clearly a misplay of me.

[kiranslee.4829]

Condi rev and and condi thieves, well all thieves are major issue atm. As someone said you cant look at rev while thieves do same or worse.One of major problems are trailblazer sets too, since for condi builds its little to no loss using those stats vise.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@KrHome.1920 said:Core bunker necro is a joke. I've fought dozens of them now and I just punch them for 30 seconds until they die. That's it. They can't even fight back. They can't run away. I don't even need to heal. They are a joke. Today I've beaten a duo of these. First I focussed the first one, stunned the second for 2 seconds, stomped the first one and then killed the second one.

Playing with what, may I ask? I've witnessed a Core Necro require 3 players to take down. Myself and 2 other roamers took at least 30 seconds to burn through his shroud and then Lich form. I can't even imagine what that would have looked like had it been 1v1.

[Momekic.8603]

@kiranslee.4829 said:Condi rev and and condi thieves, well all thieves are major issue atm. As someone said you cant look at rev while thieves do same or worse.One of major problems are trailblazer sets too, since for condi builds its little to no loss using those stats vise.

If you think power thieves are an issue at all right now then its a learn to play issue.

I agree thief is bad, but so are just about all condi bunker specs for most classes right now if built a certain way.

The bunker condi rev build is probably the major offender right now. As some have said the build existed before the patch, its just more obvious now then before the patch.

I also agree that some of the issues here could be fixed by removing things like the torment runes and gear like trail blazer and dire, but its highly unlikely ANet will remove these things.

[Shroud.2307]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Core bunker necro is a joke. I've fought dozens of them now and I just punch them for 30 seconds until they die. That's it. They can't even fight back. They can't run away. I don't even need to heal. They are a joke. Today I've beaten a duo of these. First I focussed the first one, stunned the second for 2 seconds, stomped the first one and then killed the second one.

Playing with what, may I ask? I've witnessed a Core Necro require 3 players to take down. Myself and 2 other roamers took at least 30 seconds to burn through his shroud and then Lich form. I can't even imagine what that would have looked like had it been 1v1.

Okay, I just want to preface this by saying despite being a long time Necro main, I do not have any bias towards the class. I think the Signet core build is brainless and I was happy when it got nerfed in PvP, but in WvW, I could care less.

The build that a lot of people complain about is effectively a S/D Weaver with less damage, less evades, less mobility, less defensive boons and more health. It only kills what commits to it because it wins through sheer attrition and extremely high resistance to all forms of damage. In the case of Necro it's resistance comes from passive cleanses and a colossal health pool where as with S/D Weaver ( pre-February nerfs, but it is still strong ) it was from cleanses, high Barrier and health regen and lots of evades.

Neither of them contribute anything to a group fight other than being the last one standing. And most times if that's what you are when a fight ends, you probably didn't contribute anything meaningful unless you were a support, which the Signet Necro is not.

It can do damage with the right stat alignment but even when it can it's still a Necro. It is and has always been weak to CC and is even weaker to it now with increased cooldowns on stunbreaks and the removal of Foot In The Grave ( mind you many power/hybrid builds didn't take it anyway ). I know a lot of people complain that it doesn't matter if it can be CC'd because it has too much defense to kill it while it is, but that's because combat has slowed down and not everything will die when it gets hit by 1 CC anymore. It also has next to nothing for mobility so literally anything other than another Necro can just run away from it. And honestly I recommend any one who comes across this build to do just that because it's a waste of time to fight it unless you're extremely confident in your ability.

Being next to unkillable doesn't mean something is OP. There are lots of builds out there that can achieve this but most opt for something more practical that can actually do damage and/or support because most things have better options. Necro when it isn't with a zerg doesn't. This Signet gimmick build is just what people are playing so they don't insta-die when they're alone because the majority of players aren't skilled enough to defend themselves and Necro is the easiest class to single out in an open field.

I do agree that the self sustain this build has is absurd and could stand some shaves or to have it's PvP version carried over to WvW, but I just wish people would stop acting like it's such an issue as it is. Just because it takes forever for one person to kill it doesn't mean it's a problem. It's only a problem when it starts doing something other than being a pest, eg. consistently winning heavily outnumbered fights and/or effecting small/large scale fights with some form of support or damage, none of which this build can do. I see lots of people playing it with multiple players bashing on the Necro for 2 minutes before it dies just the same as it always has, it just takes longer.

Tip to all those who hate it: If you want to get a morale boost by kicking a Necro around a bit don't be mad when you need to call for help. You have the option of literally walking away at any given time but instead you stay and die.

[Shroud.2307]

Regarding the subject of the thread -

Add an ICD to the 6th bonus on Tormenting runes ( 3 - 6 seconds ) or change/remove it completely. Reduce radius on all True Nature skills to 360 or 480. Done.

Melee spec with 75% of it's condition pressure being Torment and the remainder being Confusion and transfers. Easy to kite, weak to CC, loses damage when conditions aren't being used against it.

[lodjur.1284]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Regarding the subject of the thread -

Add an ICD to the 6th bonus on Tormenting runes ( 3 - 6 seconds ) or change/remove it completely. Reduce radius on all True Nature skills to 360 or 480. Done.

True Nature shouldn't be bigger than 240 tbh

Torment runes are one of the few things in the game that rewards playing well, changing them would be a tragedy, we rather need more similar things.

Reworking abyssal chill is imo a better idea as banish feels over the top with it and gives condi rev a ranged option.

Melee spec with 75% of it's condition pressure being Torment and the remainder being Confusion and transfers. Easy to kite, weak to CC, loses damage when conditions aren't being used against it.

Condi rev doesn't have confusion anymore. They removed all of the confusion last patch.

But otherwise I completely agree. Especially with your post about necros as it's very spot on.

[ArchonWing.9480]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Core bunker necro is a joke. I've fought dozens of them now and I just punch them for 30 seconds until they die. That's it. They can't even fight back. They can't run away. I don't even need to heal. They are a joke. Today I've beaten a duo of these. First I focussed the first one, stunned the second for 2 seconds, stomped the first one and then killed the second one.

Playing with what, may I ask? I've witnessed a Core Necro require 3 players to take down. Myself and 2 other roamers took at least 30 seconds to burn through his shroud and then Lich form. I can't even imagine what that would have looked like had it been 1v1.

Okay, I just want to preface this by saying despite being a long time Necro main, I do not have any bias towards the class. I think the Signet core build is brainless and I was happy when it got nerfed in PvP, but in WvW, I could care less.

The build that a lot of people complain about is effectively a S/D Weaver with less damage, less evades, less mobility, less defensive boons and more health. It only kills what commits to it because it wins through sheer attrition and extremely high resistance to all forms of damage. In the case of Necro it's resistance comes from passive cleanses and a colossal health pool where as with S/D Weaver ( pre-February nerfs, but it is still strong ) it was from cleanses, high Barrier and health regen and lots of evades.

Neither of them contribute anything to a group fight other than being the last one standing. And most times if that's what you are when a fight ends, you probably didn't contribute anything meaningful unless you were a support, which the Signet Necro is not.

It

can

do damage with the right stat alignment but even when it can it's still a Necro. It is and has always been weak to CC and is even weaker to it now with increased cooldowns on stunbreaks and the removal of Foot In The Grave ( mind you many power/hybrid builds didn't take it anyway ). I know a lot of people complain that it doesn't matter if it can be CC'd because it has too much defense to kill it while it is, but that's because combat has slowed down and not everything will die when it gets hit by 1 CC anymore. It also has next to nothing for mobility so literally anything other than another Necro can just run away from it. And honestly I recommend any one who comes across this build to do just that because it's a waste of time to fight it unless you're extremely confident in your ability.

Being next to unkillable doesn't mean something is OP. There are lots of builds out there that can achieve this but most opt for something more practical that can actually do damage and/or support because most things have better options. Necro when it isn't with a zerg doesn't. This Signet gimmick build is just what people are playing so they don't insta-die when they're alone because the majority of players aren't skilled enough to defend themselves and Necro is the easiest class to single out in an open field.

I do agree that the self sustain this build has is absurd and could stand some shaves or to have it's PvP version carried over to WvW, but I just wish people would stop acting like it's such an issue as it is. Just because it takes forever for one person to kill it doesn't mean it's a problem. It's only a problem when it starts doing something other than being a pest, eg. consistently winning heavily outnumbered fights and/or effecting small/large scale fights with some form of support or damage, none of which this build can do. I see lots of people playing it with multiple players bashing on the Necro for 2 minutes before it dies just the same as it always has, it just takes longer.

Tip to all those who hate it: If you want to get a morale boost by kicking a Necro around a bit don't be mad when you need to call for help. You have the option of literally

walking away

at any given time but instead you stay and die.

This is the official forums. No actual advice allowed.

Just kidding. I suppose it's too easy to default to targeting the necro regardless. In these cases of bunker whatever, I find it best to simply cc to knock them out of the fight and get some distance so you can focus other players. Eventually they'll just be by themselves and that is indeed the hazard of running bunker builds.

Although I have the tendency myself to run bunker and kite people into allied players, so i have no idea why it took me that long to pick it up.

[Jski.6180]

Torment is comply broken its on classes who can move in combat very fast. The ideal of torment was for classes who had bad combat speed to counter ppl from ruining away.