Lootboxes court ruling in the Netherlands

[kharmin.7683]

@Fuchslein.8639 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Fuchslein.8639 said:What would be so bad if blk disappeared, that so many react so dramatically here?This is how I see it. There are things in the BLC that people want, but they don't want to buy keys for them (or, in some countries, are now unable to buy keys). They want an easier, less expensive and less RNG method to obtain them. BLK are perhaps one of the larger income streams for Anet. Eliminating them completely might well cut the revenue for Anet which might severely impact their bottom line.

Personally, I find the entire thing silly. Items in the BLC are not required to play the game.

So Anet survival depends on lootboxes?I have written a contribution like this somewhere else here ... sarcastically. But if anet really depends on lootboxes it would be really sad. And it's really sad that you guys are supporting this in my opinion.

Where did I even say that? I said that "BLK are perhaps one of the larger income streams". Only their internal financials can tell the true story of how much impact BLK have. It's a non-sub based game; they have to get their money from somewhere and looking at the consistent gold -> gems conversion ratio, people haven't really been buying gems with cash.

[Fuchslein.8639]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Fuchslein.8639 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Fuchslein.8639 said:What would be so bad if blk disappeared, that so many react so dramatically here?This is how I see it. There are things in the BLC that people want, but they don't want to buy keys for them (or, in some countries, are now unable to buy keys). They want an easier, less expensive and less RNG method to obtain them. BLK are perhaps one of the larger income streams for Anet. Eliminating them completely might well cut the revenue for Anet which might severely impact their bottom line.

Personally, I find the entire thing silly. Items in the BLC are not required to play the game.

So Anet survival depends on lootboxes?I have written a contribution like this somewhere else here ... sarcastically. But if anet really depends on lootboxes it would be really sad. And it's really sad that you guys are supporting this in my opinion.

Where did I even say that? I said that "BLK are perhaps one of the larger income streams". Only their internal financials can tell the true story of how much impact BLK have. It's a non-sub based game; they have to get their money from somewhere and looking at the consistent gold -> gems conversion ratio, people haven't really been buying gems with cash.

If people would not buy gems for real money, this system would not exist for a long time ...There was once an interesting discussion that for each gold-gem also a money-gem purchase must be transacted since that is otherwise not profitable for anet and we would then no longer have this system.And it doesn't change the fact that it is sad because a company has to build on lootboxes. And that people also support such things. Because who says that these lootboxes should not address the weak to milk them, is very naive.

[Super Hayes.6890]

The company is not built on black lion keys. It is an item in the gem shop available for purchase by those that like that kind of product. There is a ton of other stuff available for purchase with ZERO rng. The only thing that bothers me about black lion chests is that some items are never available for direct purchase. Even those items are a tiny percentage of the overall gem shop. This game is not predatory and this thread has some posts that blow this subject way out of proportion. Make your statement about not liking them by not buying them. What the rest of us do with them is none of your concern.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Super Hayes.6890 said:This game is not predatoryI don;t think even one person said it is. What has been said that lootboxes are a predatory mechanic. And that they should be considered gambling.

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

The current laws and rulings are not putting ArenaNet at risk yet.They clearly state 2 very important conditions in this law."that the content of these loot boxes is determined by chance and that the prizes to be won can be traded outside of the game: the prizes have a market value."

With Market Value they mean a trade price for RL money.

The entire paragraph from the article:

In April of 2018, the Netherlands Gaming Authority conducted a study of 10 unnamed games, and concluded that four of the games were in violation of Netherlands laws concerning gambling. To be exact, the study said (via PC Gamer), "that the content of these loot boxes is determined by chance and that the prizes to be won can be traded outside of the game: the prizes have a market value." In order to sell such items in the Netherlands a license is required but given the current laws, no license can be given to game companies, so "these loot boxes (were) prohibited." The loot boxes used in the other games were deemed legal because they lack "market value." According to the study, those loot boxes whose prizes wouldn't be traded constituted a low risk for gambling addiction, being akin to "small-scale bingo." The marketable loot boxes though, those which are banned in the country, "have integral elements that are similar to slot machines."

[Super Hayes.6890]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Super Hayes.6890 said:This game is not predatoryI don;t think even one person said it is. What has been said that

lootboxes

are a predatory mechanic. And that they should be considered gambling.

If they were 100% rng sure. It feels like this discussion belongs in a different game's forum tbh.

[Josiah.2967]

I want lootboxes to be regulated. We should at least know the statistics, odds, and ensure odds are never tampered with as they must meet or excede official results.

I would prefer it if nothing can be lootbox exclusive. Everything should have another way to purchade it whether it be gold, gems, or trade.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Like i've said, i wish there were a sub fee alternative that put loot box rewards into actually playing the game. Unfortunately, after 8 years there are very few rewards left to pursue that are not either direct gemstore sales or in the rng lootboxes. Only excitement i get now is rolling a guarantee reward unlock from my weekly key farm, because at least then i might get something cool.

[kharmin.7683]

@Josiah.2967 said:I want lootboxes to be regulated. We should at least know the statistics, odds, and ensure odds are never tampered with as they must meet or excede official results.

I would prefer it if nothing can be lootbox exclusive. Everything should have another way to purchade it whether it be gold, gems, or trade.

Since nothing in them is required to play the game, there is no compelling reason for anyone to have to purchase them. They become completely optional.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Ashen.2907 said:The law in questions is essentially a statement by the Belgian government that they think their citizens are all children incapable of making decisions for themselves.Yeah, the 3 year olds EA market FIFA for are adults and can think for themselves!

... wait.

[Danikat.8537]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Fuchslein.8639 said:What would be so bad if blk disappeared, that so many react so dramatically here?This is how I see it. There are things in the BLC that people want, but they don't want to buy keys for them (or, in some countries, are now unable to buy keys). They want an easier, less expensive and less RNG method to obtain them. BLK are perhaps one of the larger income streams for Anet. Eliminating them completely might well cut the revenue for Anet which might severely impact their bottom line.

Personally, I find the entire thing silly. Items in the BLC are not required to play the game.

I want a non-RNG method, it doesn't need to be cheaper. I suppose it would be easier by default because it would involve fewer steps, but that's also a non-issue for me. I just want to know exactly how much I'm going to pay and what I'll get for my money when I do.

They've got a good system with the mount skins where you either buy them directly from the store or have a chance to get them from the chests, but anyone who doesn't want to gamble can just buy them. Which is basically the system they had for years - everything which came from black lion chests was either available on the gem store (like boosters) or tradable (like weapon skins) so there was always an alternative for people who didn't want to gamble. If the other items available from chests (like the Vermillion Throne and Dark Matter Cape in the current chests) were also sold on the gem store there would be no problem.

(An alternative I've seen suggested is to sell black lion statuettes in the gem store, for the same price as keys, so people who can't or don't want to gamble can just buy the statuettes when an item they want is finally added to the vendor and get it that way.)

[sorudo.9054]

@mercury ranique.2170 said:I've been reading the court ruling. The court is very clear that it is important that the content of the lootboxes have a value not only in the virtual economy but also on the real market. As this is not the case with GW2, I doubt this ruling change anything

well, since gold is worth more than gems and gems can be bought with real money it makes gold worth more than money, and since stuff from chests can be sold for gold it becomes a valuable item in the real market.it sounds really silly i agree but that's how they do view it, if they made gold without actual value this problem becomes mute.

[mercury ranique.2170]

@sorudo.9054 said:

@mercury ranique.2170 said:I've been reading the court ruling. The court is very clear that it is important that the content of the lootboxes have a value not only in the virtual economy but also on the real market. As this is not the case with GW2, I doubt this ruling change anything

well, since gold is worth more than gems and gems can be bought with real money it makes gold worth more than money, and since stuff from chests can be sold for gold it becomes a valuable item in the real market.it sounds really silly i agree but that's how they do view it, if they made gold without actual value this problem becomes mute.

The main difference (and that is also in the court ruling) is that with the EA lootboxes the content can be sold for real life money. When you buy gems, you have no chance at all to convert them back to money. This makes a huge difference and is also something specifically named in the court ruling.

[Apolo.5942]

The real issue is not if Lion Boxes are loot boxes, they are.

The real issue is how much of GW2 microtransactions do black lion keys represent. These one of several items they sell i don't personally imagine they make much out of them, but that is just my intuition, i know i have never bought BLK but i have bought other things like character slots, expansion tabs and so on.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Apolo.5942 said:The real issue is not if Lion Boxes are loot boxes, they are.

The real issue is how much of GW2 microtransactions do black lion keys represent. These one of several items they sell i don't personally imagine they make much out of them, but that is just my intuition, i know i have never bought BLK but i have bought other things like character slots, expansion tabs and so on.Trust me, if Black Lion Chests were responsible for only a relatively unimportant part of microtransaction income, they'd have been changed to a less controversial mechanic ages ago. It's because the lootbox approach is extremely profitable that the game developers are so strongly opposed to any attempts to change it, regardless of how much bad PR it generates.

[Apolo.5942]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Apolo.5942 said:The real issue is not if Lion Boxes are loot boxes, they are.

The real issue is how much of GW2 microtransactions do black lion keys represent. These one of several items they sell i don't personally imagine they make much out of them, but that is just my intuition, i know i have never bought BLK but i have bought other things like character slots, expansion tabs and so on.Trust me, if Black Lion Chests were responsible for only a relatively unimportant part of microtransaction income, they'd have been changed to a less controversial mechanic ages ago. It's because the lootbox approach is extremely profitable that the game developers are so strongly opposed to any attempts to change it, regardless of how much bad PR it generates.

May be, may be not, if they don't represent a significant portion of the profit, they are also not really worth the development effort to change them. So maybe you are right, but reality is, we simply don't know.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Apolo.5942 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Trust me, if Black Lion Chests were responsible for only a relatively unimportant part of microtransaction income, they'd have been changed to a less controversial mechanic ages ago. It's because the lootbox approach is extremely profitable that the game developers are so strongly opposed to any attempts to change it, regardless of how much bad PR it generates.

May be, may be not, if they don't represent a significant portion of the profit, they are also not really worth the development effort to change them. So maybe you are right, but reality is, we simply don't know.There's next to no development effort required to move items out of lootboxes into direct purchases, so no, it's not that.

[Apolo.5942]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Apolo.5942 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Trust me, if Black Lion Chests were responsible for only a relatively unimportant part of microtransaction income, they'd have been changed to a less controversial mechanic ages ago. It's because the lootbox approach is extremely profitable that the game developers are so strongly opposed to any attempts to change it, regardless of how much bad PR it generates.

May be, may be not, if they don't represent a significant portion of the profit, they are also not really worth the development effort to change them. So maybe you are right, but reality is, we simply don't know.There's next to no development effort required to move items out of lootboxes into direct purchases, so no, it's not that.

Sure there is, before its coded into the game, which i would agree its the lesser of the task, it has to be discussed, which involves meetings with sales analysts, then be kicked up the chain of command for it to be approved and a decision made. Its a metric ton of bureaucratic work.

[Ashen.2907]

@Apolo.5942 said:The real issue is not if Lion Boxes are loot boxes, they are.

The real issue is how much of GW2 microtransactions do black lion keys represent. These one of several items they sell i don't personally imagine they make much out of them, but that is just my intuition, i know i have never bought BLK but i have bought other things like character slots, expansion tabs and so on.

Yeah, I prefer items such as bag slots, etc too. The thing is that eventually long term players will have bought as much of those various items as they are going to, either because they have maxed out or because they just don't desire any more. These sorts of items are of greater appeal to newer players, but eight year old games tend to have difficulty attracting new players, particularly those who will become sufficiently invested to spend money on the game, in significant quantities.

[Obtena.7952]

@Shadowmoon.7986 said:Like i've said, i wish there were a sub fee alternative that put loot box rewards into actually playing the game. Unfortunately, after 8 years there are very few rewards left to pursue that are not either direct gemstore sales or in the rng lootboxes. Only excitement i get now is rolling a guarantee reward unlock from my weekly key farm, because at least then i might get something cool.

A sub fee alternative would not necessarily put loot box rewards into actually playing the game. That's wishful thinking at best. As a matter of fact, I can't think of ANY MMO with a sub and a GS where 'loot box' rewards are also obtainable from playing.

In fact, for loot boxes to retain their status as revenue-generation, the rewards CAN'T be released to general game play.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Shadowmoon.7986" said:Like i've said, i wish there were a sub fee alternative that put loot box rewards into actually playing the game. Unfortunately, after 8 years there are very few rewards left to pursue that are not either direct gemstore sales or in the rng lootboxes. Only excitement i get now is rolling a guarantee reward unlock from my weekly key farm, because at least then i might get something cool.

A sub fee alternative would not necessarily put loot box rewards into actually playing the game. That's wishful thinking at best. As a matter of fact, I can't think of ANY MMO with a sub and a GS where 'loot box' rewards are also obtainable from playing.

https://www.pcgamer.com/amp/free-to-play-mmo-rift-is-adding-a-new-subscription-server-free-of-loot-boxes/Rift did this, anet could easily implement something similar with guarantee reward unlocks added to a wvw/pvp reward tracks, the fractal and raid weekly rewards, and/or replace the black lion goods on the daily login. I would have no problem paying a sub fee to support the game for a better reward structure.

[Ashen.2907]

@Shadowmoon.7986 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shadowmoon.7986 said:Like i've said, i wish there were a sub fee alternative that put loot box rewards into actually playing the game. Unfortunately, after 8 years there are very few rewards left to pursue that are not either direct gemstore sales or in the rng lootboxes. Only excitement i get now is rolling a guarantee reward unlock from my weekly key farm, because at least then i might get something cool.

A sub fee alternative would not necessarily put loot box rewards into actually playing the game. That's wishful thinking at best. As a matter of fact, I can't think of ANY MMO with a sub and a GS where 'loot box' rewards are also obtainable from playing.

https://www.pcgamer.com/amp/free-to-play-mmo-rift-is-adding-a-new-subscription-server-free-of-loot-boxes/

Rift did this, anet could easily implement something similar with guarantee reward unlocks added to a wvw/pvp reward tracks, the fractal and raid weekly rewards, and/or replace the black lion goods on the daily login. I would have no problem paying a sub fee to support the game for a better reward structure.

Didn't that get shut down after less than a year live?

[Carnius Magius.8091]

I hardly believe that a non tangible item like a skin can be a result of "gambling" from opening a chest. Everything in GW2 is property of ANET. None of the money going into the game never gets returned as winnings(cash). ANet's income is already being taxed which includes any money from buying keys with gems. The EU just wants another tax to collect.

[Hot Boy.7138]

Lootboxes is gambling. I agree with the courts. They should be illegal unless they explicitly ban minors and have a gambling license. I think they're predatory and exploitive. They should have an explicit warning on the game box and in the game menu.

[Obtena.7952]

@Shadowmoon.7986 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shadowmoon.7986 said:Like i've said, i wish there were a sub fee alternative that put loot box rewards into actually playing the game. Unfortunately, after 8 years there are very few rewards left to pursue that are not either direct gemstore sales or in the rng lootboxes. Only excitement i get now is rolling a guarantee reward unlock from my weekly key farm, because at least then i might get something cool.

A sub fee alternative would not necessarily put loot box rewards into actually playing the game. That's wishful thinking at best. As a matter of fact, I can't think of ANY MMO with a sub and a GS where 'loot box' rewards are also obtainable from playing.

https://www.pcgamer.com/amp/free-to-play-mmo-rift-is-adding-a-new-subscription-server-free-of-loot-boxes/

Rift did this, anet could easily implement something similar with guarantee reward unlocks added to a wvw/pvp reward tracks, the fractal and raid weekly rewards, and/or replace the black lion goods on the daily login. I would have no problem paying a sub fee to support the game for a better reward structure.

Yes they could ... but it doesn't mean they will. Don't assume that if we have a sub fee you will get loot box rewards put into the game as content rewards.