My honest feelings about map mob difficulty in PoF

[Obfuscate.6430]

I am sorry I am not reading all 17 pages but I don't agree with OP. 
You need to learn tactics and stock your utility bar accordingly. Are you in a place where you are likely to be overwhelmed? Learn how to kite. Lots of enemies with CC? Bring a stun break.  Keep your eyes peeled and know your limits. Don't engage if you feel it's going to be too much. It's a multiplayer game so you also have the option of joining groups. If there is a specific goal use the LFG.

POF is also the latest expansion. It is supposed to be difficult - it is supposed to make use of all the skills you've learned up until this point. 

In the very least, give a site like Metabattle a try and pay attention to gear. I find practicing in spvp for a few days helps teach tactics as well as make you more familiar with your build. You will never face any mob as hard as another player

[radda.8920]

3 hours ago, Pockethole.5031 said:

Me: have all HoT masteries (and 100% map completion on old Tyria and HoT maps), mounts up to Jackal, knows her kitten around open world
The masteries btw: https://imgur.com/a/od9kLx2 

Everyone else: lol learn to play noob

Me: ???

You people just refuse to read what I write because it's easier to gatekeep and judge that I'm worthless instead of acknowledging my points and actually struggle to come up with a decent argument, because you know I'm not wrong.

 

HOT was a hundred times harder to explore at the release than POF maps

if you manage to finish everything on HOT now, it's because they made the maps ridiculously easy because of the complaints

 

And no you are absolutely not right, it is impossible to make exploring the desert easier Yes arena could maybe make the mob aggro different but other than that, I really don't see what they can simplify ..

 

it's an arid and difficult area to cross like on gw1, I find it coherent that we have trouble crossing it (if you know a little about the lore of the place)

Edited August 29, 2021 by radda.8920

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Yeah, it's a no win.  Mounts are both the problem and the solution here--a problem because maps must be tailored with them in mind, and a solution because without them we would have quit long ago due to bad map design. 

 

Take the 'return to...' event--we're now on Istan, does ANYONE find that map fun to play? You really can't stop and gather or look around without being in combat every 5 seconds, and that isn't 'skill based' it's annoying.  Either of the builds I run will never die to any mob because they all have 3k toughness and enough stunbreak and condi-cleanse to last a small war...so it literally is just annoying to play.  

 

Whereas HoT maps were confusing messes that made you not want to explore, PoF maps are flat messes with a ton of mobs that makes you not want to explore.  When they made PoF it's like they learned little from Orr and just made every map like this; the first few are passable, but the farther south you get, just forget it.  

 

I'm not sure what happened either, as all of the LWS3 maps are fine besides Sirens Landing which is just disjointed and has one WP for whatever reason someone thought that'd be an awesome idea.  Was all downhill from there though.  

 

 

[Linken.6345]

22 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Yeah, it's a no win.  Mounts are both the problem and the solution here--a problem because maps must be tailored with them in mind, and a solution because without them we would have quit long ago due to bad map design. 

 

Take the 'return to...' event--we're now on Istan, does ANYONE find that map fun to play? You really can't stop and gather or look around without being in combat every 5 seconds, and that isn't 'skill based' it's annoying.  Either of the builds I run will never die to any mob because they all have 3k toughness and enough stunbreak and condi-cleanse to last a small war...so it literally is just annoying to play.  

 

Whereas HoT maps were confusing messes that made you not want to explore, PoF maps are flat messes with a ton of mobs that makes you not want to explore.  When they made PoF it's like they learned little from Orr and just made every map like this; the first few are passable, but the farther south you get, just forget it.  

 

I'm not sure what happened either, as all of the LWS3 maps are fine besides Sirens Landing which is just disjointed and has one WP for whatever reason someone thought that'd be an awesome idea.  Was all downhill from there though.  

 

 

Well its your choice to run defensive stats making it take longer to kill the monsters.

[Pockethole.5031]

You people just don't know what thinking outside the box means, because the whole world is your box for you, and you can't even imagine it would be any other way.
It's unfortunate.

But anyway I gave an Edit 2 in the first post. You don't have to read it, it's basically the same as before, just in different words. 
 

1 hour ago, Linken.6345 said:

Well its your choice to run defensive stats making it take longer to kill the monsters.

You run defensive so you don't die to a gang of those said monsters. If you go glass cannon you will find yourself dying so much more often, because the aggro range is large, and there are alot of hostile mobs who will target you with said aggro range. 

It's like you're Justin Bieber at your peak popularity, and the whole map of hostile mobs is your fangirls. 
If you don't understand me, forget about it.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Linken.6345 said:

Well its your choice to run defensive stats making it take longer to kill the monsters.

 

The thing is...it doesn't take long to kill them.  Running a celestial build with 2k power and 25 stacks of might really means 3k power and with soulbeast's fury traits...it's a lot of damage.  

 

So things go down quick, that doesn't change that running through the map without your mount is near impossible.  Even if technically possible, it is certainly unenjoyable.  

 

So yes, it would be nice for EoD to go back towards core in terms of map design.  All of the core maps had a purpose (even Orr); new maps have entirely lost the purpose.

[ASP.8093]

2 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I'm not sure what happened either, as all of the LWS3 maps are fine besides Sirens Landing which is just disjointed and has one WP for whatever reason someone thought that'd be an awesome idea.  Was all downhill from there though. 

Siren's Landing has free port spots on the shrines (similar to the Dragonfall end-of-meta shrines). Click the little ankh icons.

[yann.1946]

On 8/29/2021 at 1:48 AM, Pockethole.5031 said:

Her, but anyway.
I am NOT demanding everyone to play how they want.
I'm offering a SOLUTION to play how they want, should the mob difficulty be lowered.
Your tight kitten just read it as offensive because I offered my criticism towards your religion that is the game. Don't take it personally, because it has absolutely nothing to do with your being. And for the (hopefully) last time I know how to play.

Please note that it doesn't work the other way around: since it's more difficult to just breathe and exist in the desert with all the mobs, because everything is annoying (or hard, these words have same meaning to me in this context) a casual player is forced to be hardcore. While hardcore players are like "yay, combat, I want to gather some wood and I need to kill 5 mobs from around it, hell yes I love this torture!" that means casual players... are simply not enjoying the same experience.
Why is that so hard to understand?
If it was easier to do all that, the hc players could increase the difficulty of it - should they wish so - by wearing blue gear. But there is no easy way out for casual players to make the experience more enjoyable as things are.
Now do you get it? This isn't fair for all of the playerbase. And you don't have to defend Anet's choices or whatever. I'm just offering my kittening feedback, and it's up to them if they want to take it. 

I would be so glad if they could implement open world difficulty choice system. Nobody would need to get their pants in a twist about this subject ever again, granted the system would work flawlessly.

And again. I know how to play. You can keep saying it, if you want to attempt annoying me, but I'm still as good player as I will ever be. I look at other people's builds (yes, open world), I also make my own, and all I'm missing is ascended gear, griffon, skyscale and beetle. And even if I did get all that, it wouldn't make the mobs much less annoying. The desert maps will still feel repulsive.
And at this point I start a dialog with imaginary opponent.
"Then the problem is you"
No, there are clearly other people who take issue with mob density/aggro range. The overall annoyance of it. 


If you refuse to give more casual playerbase their own space, then you're ignorant, or gatekeeper, or even toxic. I guess it depends on the person who thinks casual players don't matter.

And if you didn't read anything I wrote, then you're just fighting here for the sake of itself. And I'm not here for that reason.

I have a few problems with this line of thinking. 

A) in general you want the general game experience to be what you have designed. Most people will not kitten their build to gain challenge. They will just think the game is boring and leave. 

B) the difficulty most people who talk about this is not just more HP and damage. But it's extra mechanics etc. Like their planning to do with eod funnily enough. 

C) your argument can be used to lower the difficulty as low as possible. 1 shotting mobs in ascended for example. 

[Jukhy.2431]

Never had too much problems with either difficult mobs or aggro range in PoF. There are certain mobs like sand sharks, eels and hydras that seem to have high aggro range but I've learned to deal with it. I guess the point conveyed is that they are more aggressive type of enemy so they will attack you from further away. Situational awareness is the key in avoiding them.

There are mobs like this in HoT also, eg. the sharpshooters. Had way more trouble in HoT with the high spike damage mob packs than anywhere in PoF. (Still loving you pocket raptors.)

I sincerely hope they don't make EoD (too much) easier than what we have with the other expansions.

[Dante.1763]

3 hours ago, Pockethole.5031 said:

 

You run defensive so you don't die to a gang of those said monsters. If you go glass cannon you will find yourself dying so much more often, because the aggro range is large, and there are alot of hostile mobs who will target you with said aggro range. 

It's like you're Justin Bieber at your peak popularity, and the whole map of hostile mobs is your fangirls. 
If you don't understand me, forget about it.

*stares at my full zerker weaver/tempest, condi/power SB, and Zerker thief*

Running glass builds gear isnt the issue here and why the mobs are downing players. The pof zones are not at all that hard, so long as one doesnt engage everything around them, and pays attention to what they are fighting.

The only issue i have with pof is their idiotically long aggro range, but its sure not the damage/difficulty. Its easier than current HOT, which i do struggle with some mobs out there.

[Sobx.1758]

8 hours ago, Pockethole.5031 said:

You run defensive so you don't die to a gang of those said monsters. If you go glass cannon you will find yourself dying so much more often, because the aggro range is large, and there are alot of hostile mobs who will target you with said aggro range.

I'm running "glass" in ow, including those zones and -again- what you're saying in this thread is not my experience. Might be why you keep getting told it's more about improving/adjusting your playstyle.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Gibson.4036]

I'd be the last person to say "git gud". I'm a pretty casual player.

I remember being swarmed by pocket raptors in HoT, and flattened by those things that shoot their armored plates at you. When I first went to PoF, it was like a kids game of hot lava. I ended up running around on the pyramids because the sand sharks down below would tear me up so fast. I kind of like, however, the fact that I have memories of being taken out in both HoT and PoF at first and now I go through those zones with little trouble. It feels like real progression. It has a little to do with equipment, but it also has to do with learning how to get around, and where the trouble spots are.

As a suggestion, you can gradually ween yourself off defensive gear. I found it very helpful on my Mesmer to start with Trailblazer armor and Viper weapons and trinkets. As I got more and more comfortable, I switched the armor piece by piece to Viper. On my thief I did the same thing, except with Marauder and Zerker.

It seems paradoxical, but killing things faster does end up being safer than going defensive. There are builds that will even give you the defenses based on your offense (heals, protection, etc on crits, damage, etc), making up for lost defensive stats.

I've been running around HoT zones with my son recently. His first time there. Mostly, when he gets overwhelmed it seems to be by rushing in or not really making sure he's in a safe place before letting his guard down. Or when he chooses a build based on how he feels, rather than really knowing how the traits work together.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Gibson.4036

[Asum.4960]

On 8/29/2021 at 1:48 AM, Pockethole.5031 said:

Her, but anyway.
I am NOT demanding everyone to play how they want.
I'm offering a SOLUTION to play how they want, should the mob difficulty be lowered.
Your tight kitten just read it as offensive because I offered my criticism towards your religion that is the game. Don't take it personally, because it has absolutely nothing to do with your being. And for the (hopefully) last time I know how to play.

Please note that it doesn't work the other way around: since it's more difficult to just breathe and exist in the desert with all the mobs, because everything is annoying (or hard, these words have same meaning to me in this context) a casual player is forced to be hardcore. While hardcore players are like "yay, combat, I want to gather some wood and I need to kill 5 mobs from around it, hell yes I love this torture!" that means casual players... are simply not enjoying the same experience.
Why is that so hard to understand?
If it was easier to do all that, the hc players could increase the difficulty of it - should they wish so - by wearing blue gear. But there is no easy way out for casual players to make the experience more enjoyable as things are.
Now do you get it? This isn't fair for all of the playerbase. And you don't have to defend Anet's choices or whatever. I'm just offering my kittening feedback, and it's up to them if they want to take it. 

I would be so glad if they could implement open world difficulty choice system. Nobody would need to get their pants in a twist about this subject ever again, granted the system would work flawlessly.

And again. I know how to play. You can keep saying it, if you want to attempt annoying me, but I'm still as good player as I will ever be. I look at other people's builds (yes, open world), I also make my own, and all I'm missing is ascended gear, griffon, skyscale and beetle. And even if I did get all that, it wouldn't make the mobs much less annoying. The desert maps will still feel repulsive.
And at this point I start a dialog with imaginary opponent.
"Then the problem is you"
No, there are clearly other people who take issue with mob density/aggro range. The overall annoyance of it. 


If you refuse to give more casual playerbase their own space, then you're ignorant, or gatekeeper, or even toxic. I guess it depends on the person who thinks casual players don't matter.

And if you didn't read anything I wrote, then you're just fighting here for the sake of itself. And I'm not here for that reason.

While I can agree with plenty suggestions in the thread from others, such as lowering aggro ranges and placing mobs more intuitively, creating more danger- and safezones - your arguments are very poor. 

 

Not only is >95% of the game catering hard to casual play, especially since the pre HoT powercreep patches and Elite Specs, what you suggest proficient player's should have to do to enjoy the game is awful. 

Almost every class and spec can walk through OW and Story, including PoF and HoT, by almost to actually just auto attacking while being a semi immortal 25 Might/Vuln and perma Fury killing machine these days.

 

I can't see how you don't understand how terrible it feels to for example have played this franchise for 16 years, invest time and effort in to learning how to play, how to gear etc. and to enjoy the combat system, and then get to fight a freaking God of the franchise, and having your first thoughts not be "alright, how am I going to approach this to beat it, how am I going to adjust my build" etc., but instead thinking "sigh, alright, guess I take off half my gear so I don't burst this down and at least get to see some of the things this god I've been waiting 16 years to see can do..". 

You really think that's enjoyable? The ludonarrative dissonance in terms of presented threats and actual ease of gameplay proficient players have to endure already is off the charts.

 

Besides, I have played through HoT years ago with a boosted character just using random stat level ~60 rares, greens and blues from the level up chests only, and even then it was still easy to get all the HP's to unlock the elite specs etc. - because gear is only so much of the equation, skill, build and playstyle (such as circle strafing) still make up the majority of the difference. 

Once you for example realise that ~90% of mobs can't hit you with ~90% of their attacks if you just strafe through/around their hitbox at the right moment, what gear you are waring doesn't really matter, other than just dragging fights out due to lower damage and feeling bad about not playing at full capacity.

 

You can learn to build you character and play better and maybe even get a rewarding experience out of that if you actually put your mind to it - I can't learn to play worse, and purposefully crippling myself (for general play, outside of setting personal challenges), while still being largely ineffective in actually making the content challenging and engaging, will never be fun. 

 

What kind of backwards game design is it to reward players who don't care to actually understand and learn the game with engaging experiences, while punishing and boring those who do. 

GW2 needs better tutorialization and more ramping difficulty to close the gap between players - not less challenge to widen it while alienating the top end.

[BlueJin.4127]

I didn't read the whole thing, but OP, if you can post the profession you're using along with your build, gears, and rotation, we might be able to help you get better.

No offense, but considering that the vast majority of casual players have no trouble dealing with open world PoF enemies, you're not right about its difficulty. Others already have given very good points on why PoF isn't hard; you're just not accepting them. If you're still struggling with going through PoF, it is time for you to think outside the box. Most likely, there's something extremely wrong with your builds, gears, and/or rotation and you need to improve. Yes, the aggro range is annoying. Getting a chain of aggros and spending 30 seconds stuck in combat because you dismounted to gather for 3 seconds sucks. But if you're having trouble killing these enemies, you need to accept that you need to improve.

Once you tell us how you're playing, it'll be very quick and easy to get you up to speed. Open world PoF isn't so hard you need to take hours long classes. You can just copy a good build. 5 gold is more than enough to get some decent gears for open world. You don't need ascended gears. Learning proper rotation takes only minutes due to the simple nature of MMO's.

Edited August 30, 2021 by BlueJin.4127

[fenriswolfman.5486]

The vast majority of casual players are gone. Just sayin.

[Gibson.4036]

45 minutes ago, fenriswolfman.5486 said:

The vast majority of casual players are gone. Just sayin.

Based on what?

The fact that I still regularly find people to rez in core zones seems to argue against that.

[ASP.8093]

55 minutes ago, fenriswolfman.5486 said:

The vast majority of casual players are gone. Just sayin.

(This game is NINE YEARS OLD.)

[ugrakarma.9416]

14 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Take the 'return to...' event--we're now on Istan, does ANYONE find that map fun to play? You really can't stop and gather or look around without being in combat every 5 seconds, and that isn't 'skill based' it's annoying.  Either of the builds I run will never die to any mob because they all have 3k toughness and enough stunbreak and condi-cleanse to last a small war...so it literally is just annoying to play.  

Ibogas is another example of crazy range aggro. 

[Fuchslein.8639]

For me, it's not always about the mobs being hard to kill. I have no problems with that. But the fact that you first have to clear a radius of like 100km to take screenshots or just look around is just annoying.

Of course, if you just want to rush through the maps, it's completely fine. But in a game I want to be able to enjoy the graphics and everything without being attacked by monsters, to which I have to run first even with melee weapons to kill them ...

[Mungo Zen.9364]

14 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Yeah, it's a no win.  Mounts are both the problem and the solution here--a problem because maps must be tailored with them in mind, and a solution because without them we would have quit long ago due to bad map design. 

 

Take the 'return to...' event--we're now on Istan, does ANYONE find that map fun to play? You really can't stop and gather or look around without being in combat every 5 seconds, and that isn't 'skill based' it's annoying.  Either of the builds I run will never die to any mob because they all have 3k toughness and enough stunbreak and condi-cleanse to last a small war...so it literally is just annoying to play.  

 

Whereas HoT maps were confusing messes that made you not want to explore, PoF maps are flat messes with a ton of mobs that makes you not want to explore.  When they made PoF it's like they learned little from Orr and just made every map like this; the first few are passable, but the farther south you get, just forget it.  

 

I'm not sure what happened either, as all of the LWS3 maps are fine besides Sirens Landing which is just disjointed and has one WP for whatever reason someone thought that'd be an awesome idea.  Was all downhill from there though.  

 

 

Skill isn't limited to jut one's ability to win a fight.  It also includes being able to pick and choose the best paths, the best resting spots, the best places to dismount and the like.  It includes picking your battles when you have to get into a fight when you stop near enemies. 

Most of the players complaining about map and mob challenges in PoF claim to understand the game and be quite capable of gearing and playing their class correctly.  I can appreciate not wanting to be challenged with questions like 'is my skill good enough for this or do I need to learn more?' but games are puzzles with rules that can be learned and worked around.  

We all know what PoF holds and the challenges it presents, some of us accept what it is a learned the nuances of surviving the desert with ones body and mind intact.  The same goes for any other content.  Observe and learn the rules, and you will likely learn to feel safer and more confident in any area.

I say this as a player who, since my first posts months ago in this thread, has been 'trapped' on occasion by chaining mobs.  I have had experiences like those that players are complaining about, and sometimes you can learn from them, and sometimes, well, you just have to kill a bunch of mobs.  This game isn't always going to be easy and perfect, yet it has never stopped me from playing the game, or enjoying the content.

[mythical.6315]

13 hours ago, Pockethole.5031 said:

You run defensive so you don't die to a gang of those said monsters. If you go glass cannon you will find yourself dying so much more often, because the aggro range is large, and there are alot of hostile mobs who will target you with said aggro range. 

You go offensive to kill mobs quicker. A dead mob can’t hurt you. I also disagree about the aggro range issue as only a few mobs have a large aggro range. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

Skill isn't limited to jut one's ability to win a fight.  It also includes being able to pick and choose the best paths, the best resting spots, the best places to dismount and the like.  It includes picking your battles when you have to get into a fight when you stop near enemies. 

Most of the players complaining about map and mob challenges in PoF claim to understand the game and be quite capable of gearing and playing their class correctly.  I can appreciate not wanting to be challenged with questions like 'is my skill good enough for this or do I need to learn more?' but games are puzzles with rules that can be learned and worked around.  

We all know what PoF holds and the challenges it presents, some of us accept what it is a learned the nuances of surviving the desert with ones body and mind intact.  The same goes for any other content.  Observe and learn the rules, and you will likely learn to feel safer and more confident in any area.

I say this as a player who, since my first posts months ago in this thread, has been 'trapped' on occasion by chaining mobs.  I have had experiences like those that players are complaining about, and sometimes you can learn from them, and sometimes, well, you just have to kill a bunch of mobs.  This game isn't always going to be easy and perfect, yet it has never stopped me from playing the game, or enjoying the content.

 

Yes, the best path is 'mount up on skyscale and fly over the map'.  This doesn't make the map design good...

 

That's why I maintain if anet did a day or week with no mounts this forum would break from all the incoming salt.  

[Sobx.1758]

18 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Yes, the best path is 'mount up on skyscale and fly over the map'.  This doesn't make the map design good...

 

That's why I maintain if anet did a day or week with no mounts this forum would break from all the incoming salt.  

Why would they suddenly lock out parts of the game while having the maps literally designed with those parts being available to the players in mind?

Just imagine if they locked picking specialisations. Just imagine if they locked gear/gear stats. Just imagine if they locked every WP. Just imagine if everyone had to walk instead of running. Just imagine if people couldn't use skills. All of these (and more) are being kept in mind while designing content/environment of the game. I don't know why you'd think "just imagine if they locked having mounts in maps that were designed around mounts" is a valid argument here, but if it somehow is, then I'll need an explanation.

 

And skyscale is nowhere near needed there, lets make that clear.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Obtena.7952]

15 hours ago, Pockethole.5031 said:

You people just don't know what thinking outside the box means, because the whole world is your box for you, and you can't even imagine it would be any other way.
 

We can, we just don't see the need to do so. It's not that people aren't imaginative. It's that they recognize map design is part of the story that is being told. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Gibson.4036]

2 hours ago, ASP.8093 said:

(This game is NINE YEARS OLD.)

Are you saying that means all the casual players are gone?

Because casual players can pick up a game at any time. I've dropped in and played around with MMOs many years after launch. Sometimes, unfortunately, shortly before they were shut down. 😛

They can also leave and come back. Especially in GW2. The fact that you can drop out for years even and drop back in with relatively little trouble is a hallmark of this game. I'm a pretty casual player, left shortly after HoT was released, came after PoF was released.