Strikes CMs are just another nail in the coffin

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

Why stop there why not edge of the mist and unranked/custom aswell?

Unranked is exactly the same play as ranked, so sure, i see no problem with extending the system to it. Why the WvW pip gains did not extend to Mists, i still have no idea either. Custom can be gamed way too much, so it might not necessarily be a good idea (on the other hand, with so many people AFK-farming in ranked, letting them do it in custom might actually be beneficial for the mode).

[Infusion.7149]

You can 5 man queue in unranked (as with ATs) ... if you don't know the difference between ranked and unranked please don't spread misinformation such as "exactly the same".

[Fangoth.4503]

6 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

Why stop there why not edge of the mist and unranked/custom aswell?

because i never heard about it 🙃

[Firebeard.1746]

On 7/29/2021 at 3:01 AM, yukarishura.4790 said:

That being said, thx for ignoring a large part of the playerbase who expect a raid for ages. But it's ok we get fishing...

Dude, they're trying to make you happy, they made it very clear in the announce stream that they want content that panders to the raid community and their skills in the CMs they're adding. If these new strikes fail, but the CMs are on par with raids, that's entirely on the community for not willing to budge with anet and work with them. That's a dangerous place for a game to be in in general, to have its community and the devs at odds. .

The only way you'll get raids back is if all the hardcore elitist players get on their knees and in unison beg for an easymode and tell Anet it's okay to renege on their promise of never making the raids easier. Anet rightly recognizes the barrier to entry is just far too high. they also recognize adding an easymode to raids contradicts what they promised.

They're literally copying the raid system of every other MMO (by adding varying degrees of difficulty) and renaming it strikes. At this point, strikes vs raid arguments are going to be arguments about naming only, assuming anet makes good on their promises.

The other thing I don't see the raiding community rejoicing about is the fact that the CMs give Anet way more leeway to make challenging encounters. I've often seen on this forum that the newer raids are/were too easy on release. Now that there's non CM strike versions of the encounters, Anet doesn't have to pull punches.

I, like you OP, would love to see this new system called "raids" for the sole reason that raids have a lot of cultural meaning within the MMO community, and for all intents and purposes, this new system is GW2's version of that. I would love for that to be very clear to new players. Unfortunately, any time someone on these forums has taken the time to explain weaknesses in current raid design alot of raiders who stalk these forums come out of the woodwork to tell them that they're wrong or stupid basically. And they also point out facts in previous streams about what raids were intended to be that don't allow for those improvements. So anet, given expectations of raiders and how the system has panned out was essentially forced to make a new game mode in order to make any sort of improvement to the raid system.

Also, I've recently started raiding because I met people who aren't jerks and actually fun to play with who do them. They've helped me grow to a place I can even PuG some wings when i can't make their times. I'm concerned about the future of the guild they're associated with, but I hope the new system delivers and that they're open minded. As someone who has recently picked raiding back up and is starting to actually enjoy it, I hope this community survives, but we'll see.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[morsdood.1987]

If they are done well then Strike CMs can be a proper replacement, nobody does Raids for the inbetween events and running around anyway, its all about the boss encounters

[Sobx.1758]

5 minutes ago, morsdood.1987 said:

If they are done well then Strike CMs can be a proper replacement, nobody does Raids for the inbetween events and running around anyway, its all about the boss encounters

Yup, agreed. Just because they're "strikes" is too little information to write it off right away, for all we know it can be close to raids, while being more accessible due to not being a chain of events, so you can clear whichever boss you want without spamming lfg for "openers".

Edited August 17, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

On 7/30/2021 at 3:18 PM, artharon.9276 said:

Then are not aware what you are playing mate. they can end elitism by simply remove dps meters, banning any kind of 3rd party measurement addons, removing any ability to prove that you successfully completed an instance once, outlaw raid selling, quit bringing in more and more powercreep by orphaning the core classes to promote their elite specs and lastly, keeping raiding rewards at bare minimum.

 

Fractals and the rest of the content don't really suffer these issues. People are fun, patient and respectful, I just love it. But when it comes to raiding... screams, stress, scoldings, fights, sarcasm, stupid meta arguments, firing people just because they failed to do x thing once or twice when the group has absolute power and ability to carry that person. These things never directed to me, but I had to witness this nonsense almost every time, dude if I wanted to have that stress, I'd go play a non casual friendly game not an easy game like gw2. 

 

This is why I liked EoD offered no new raids so far and showed signs of improving strikes instead. Back to the time when the grass was greener. But they probably will, because meta nerds demand it. 

 

If you ban this, people will just stop doing raids.

You cancalculate dps on a golem based on the time it took you to kill it... with stopwatch.

 

You calculate boon uptimes from recordings

And your dps in a fight also from recording.

You cannot ban a program that is running on your pc while gw2 is active if it doesnt interact with gw2 code. 

And all the information is visible on the screen

 

So if this happens.... "elitists" will just use these methods.

 

I think you are naive.

But I never could understand players thqt think someone should play only their way.

 

If you dont want to play with elitist.... then dont. There should be alot others like you...

 

And if you cannot find them, then maybe most of the players interested in raids are elitists. 

And why should the majority play the way the minority wants

[artharon.9276]

29 minutes ago, ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

If you ban this, people will just stop doing raids.

You cancalculate dps on a golem based on the time it took you to kill it... with stopwatch.

 

You calculate boon uptimes from recordings

And your dps in a fight also from recording.

You cannot ban a program that is running on your pc while gw2 is active if it doesnt interact with gw2 code. 

And all the information is visible on the screen

 

So if this happens.... "elitists" will just use these methods.

 

I think you are naive.

But I never could understand players thqt think someone should play only their way.

 

If you dont want to play with elitist.... then dont. There should be alot others like you...

 

And if you cannot find them, then maybe most of the players interested in raids are elitists. 

And why should the majority play the way the minority wants

 

yeah some people will quit, then will be replaced by more people playing raids. 

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

22 minutes ago, artharon.9276 said:

 

yeah some people will quit, then will be replaced by more people playing raids. 

I think this thought process is funny. 

 

If you remove elitists.... nothing will change for casuals since those 2 groups dont want to interact together

[artharon.9276]

4 hours ago, ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

I think this thought process is funny. 

 

If you remove elitists.... nothing will change for casuals since those 2 groups dont want to interact together

 

This is how anet should proceed, ditch the  benchmarker, bring in visa and mastercard.

Funny thing is this is exactly how you said, read what you wrote. these 2 groups indeed don't want to interact, one must die for another to survive, it would be stupid to think otherwise. Don't get me wrong  I'm not calling you stupid, it's just not too smart. 

[Obtena.7952]

17 hours ago, ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

I think this thought process is funny. 

 

If you remove elitists.... nothing will change for casuals since those 2 groups dont want to interact together

Not just funny ... it's nonsensical too. Why would casual players rush out to do raids if there are less elitists? All the sudden casuals just love to do raids? Nothing stops those casual players from doing raids now, EVEN with the elitists being there ... ESPECIALLY because they don't want to interact. 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[tim.4596]

On 7/30/2021 at 4:10 PM, CasualElitist.8795 said:

 

Wait, have you never done T4+cms fractals? Because they are exactly like raids - asking for kp, using dps meters and kicking people when they are underperforming. Fun and patient people? You can meet them in raids. Toxic people? You can meet them in fractals too, even more often than in raids. Same with strike missions. Just because you personally did not encounter them in any other content, it doesn't mean they don't exist. And just because you personally met some toxicity in raids (if you even raided and not just based your opinion on some reddit threads crying that raids are toxic and unaccessible to casuals), doesn't mean that most of raid playerbase is like that because it's not.

 

Toxicity and unnaccessibility of raids is a myth, and everyone who put the smallest effort to actually try them out, so basically getting exotic gear with proper stats, good build and joined any raid training discord, can tell you this.

 

Someone here earlier compared raid selling to drug dealing? It's more like a free market, you have a demand so you supply. You have people who can't be bothered to spend few hours per week actively playing and getting LI for legendary armor, but are willing to pay someone to carry them? Well then you also have people who will do that for you, for a price adequate to their experience and time needed to be spent on it. It's like, idk, some people grow carrots in their garden and some go buy them from the store. So I am not really sure how raid sellers are creating toxcity and elitism? They are not the ones kicking you from pugs when you don't pull your weight. And in case you don't know, it's not "raid" sellers, it's just sellers, as they sell every possible content in the game - dmrs, strikes, fractals, raids, story achievements, collections, skyscale material farming, wvw reward tracks....anything you can possibly imagine is sellable. People think it's only raid sellers because they usually advertise in raid lfg. But with raids gone, they will still be out there, selling other content. Noone is forced to buy so this whole hate on sellers is just hilarious.

I was attempting to find someone nice to say regarding toxic people in Fractals but... there are so many wrong things in fractals nowadays that I don't even know where to start.

 

So I guess just let toxic clowns be toxic

[Linken.6345]

2 hours ago, tim.4596 said:

I was attempting to find someone nice to say regarding toxic people in Fractals but... there are so many wrong things in fractals nowadays that I don't even know where to start.

 

So I guess just let toxic clowns be toxic

Then make your own groups, belive me they dont want to play with you either.

[Shikaru.7618]

On 8/20/2021 at 5:12 PM, artharon.9276 said:

 

This is how anet should proceed, ditch the  benchmarker, bring in visa and mastercard.

Funny thing is this is exactly how you said, read what you wrote. these 2 groups indeed don't want to interact, one must die for another to survive, it would be stupid to think otherwise. Don't get me wrong  I'm not calling you stupid, it's just not too smart. 

One definitely does not need to die for the other to exist. There's nothing stopping you from forming chill raid groups. Trust me, elitist raiders will avoid these groups like the plague and you won't have any problems with screaming or kicking. I don't want to play with open worlders in my groups nor will I seek out a group of open worlders to join. There's no problem here other than your own lack of initiative to open your own squad in lfg.

 

Here's another dose of reality for you. Just because there's no dps meter does not change the fact that your dps/healing/boon uptime is low. You are doing sub 10k whether you measure it or not. The question is do you want to disband the entire squad because you don't know who it is, or be able to kick the problem child and re lfg to find someone who can actually do the role. People need to stop fearing objective data.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Shikaru.7618

[artharon.9276]

13 hours ago, Shikaru.7618 said:

One definitely does not need to die for the other to exist. There's nothing stopping you from forming chill raid groups. Trust me, elitist raiders will avoid these groups like the plague and you won't have any problems with screaming or kicking. I don't want to play with open worlders in my groups nor will I seek out a group of open worlders to join. There's no problem here other than your own lack of initiative to open your own squad in lfg.

 

Here's another dose of reality for you. Just because there's no dps meter does not change the fact that your dps/healing/boon uptime is low. You are doing sub 10k whether you measure it or not. The question is do you want to disband the entire squad because you don't know who it is, or be able to kick the problem child and re lfg to find someone who can actually do the role. People need to stop fearing objective data.

 

I personally got no issues with dps or playing the role I picked to perform nor need to use a dps meter to detect who is sabotaging the content I play as a group. You underestimate a group of people live in the internet just to act like what they are not. Correct me if I'm wrong, as far as I know this game's  designed just for good vibes, nice visuals and  "oh wow did you see that" "awww so cute" moments. There's absolutely no conceptional connection between what we have in the raiding world, (kps, selling raids, benchmarking, picking the guy performing 5 percent better than another) with the rest of the game. I don't know a legit way to keep the casual majority and the virtual monarchs happy. Only solution is getting rid of everything that makes this game unfriendly to casuals.

 

Gw2 should go back to its roots. From marketing to gameplay, friendly group content to itemization,  polar opposite of  world of warcraft. And I'll be glad to hear if raiding simply dies out or changes dramatically. 

Edited August 23, 2021 by artharon.9276

[Shikaru.7618]

4 hours ago, artharon.9276 said:

 

I personally got no issues with dps or playing the role I picked to perform nor need to use a dps meter to detect who is sabotaging the content I play as a group. You underestimate a group of people live in the internet just to act like what they are not. Correct me if I'm wrong, as far as I know this game's  designed just for good vibes, nice visuals and  "oh wow did you see that" "awww so cute" moments. There's absolutely no conceptional connection between what we have in the raiding world, (kps, selling raids, benchmarking, picking the guy performing 5 percent better than another) with the rest of the game. I don't know a legit way to keep the casual majority and the virtual monarchs happy. Only solution is getting rid of everything that makes this game unfriendly to casuals.

 

Gw2 should go back to its roots. From marketing to gameplay, friendly group content to itemization,  polar opposite of  world of warcraft. And I'll be glad to hear if raiding simply dies out or changes dramatically. 

All of the "designed for" pillars you listed are highly subjective. My idea of good vibes is to play with other people that have read their tooltips so I don't need to explain every single mechanic of their class to them and then have them unable to execute on it anyway. At least in instanced content I can choose who I want to play with. Nice visuals is also not exclusive to open world. 

 

It's not also not just 5% better. It's 1000% better. As stated by devs the average player is outputting 10x lower than top tier players. Sorry but if it takes an entire raid squad of open worlders to equate to 1 raider, there's no room for them in my squad.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Shikaru.7618

[Fangoth.4503]

On 8/20/2021 at 7:52 PM, artharon.9276 said:

 

yeah some people will quit, then will be replaced by more people playing raids. 

actually they won't be replaced, if a player can't dps/heal/give boons with arcdps he won't be any better without it.

 

On 8/21/2021 at 1:12 AM, artharon.9276 said:

 

This is how anet should proceed, ditch the  benchmarker, bring in visa and mastercard.

Funny thing is this is exactly how you said, read what you wrote. these 2 groups indeed don't want to interact, one must die for another to survive, it would be stupid to think otherwise. Don't get me wrong  I'm not calling you stupid, it's just not too smart. 

then ditch the casuals, they are unable to play the game nor to bring visa and mastercard  as they can't trade gems for MCs to buy their FC 🙃
 

4 hours ago, artharon.9276 said:

 

I personally got no issues with dps or playing the role I picked to perform nor need to use a dps meter to detect who is sabotaging the content I play as a group. You underestimate a group of people live in the internet just to act like what they are not. Correct me if I'm wrong, as far as I know this game's  designed just for good vibes, nice visuals and  "oh wow did you see that" "awww so cute" moments. There's absolutely no conceptional connection between what we have in the raiding world, (kps, selling raids, benchmarking, picking the guy performing 5 percent better than another) with the rest of the game. I don't know a legit way to keep the casual majority and the virtual monarchs happy. Only solution is getting rid of everything that makes this game unfriendly to casuals.

 

Gw2 should go back to its roots. From marketing to gameplay, friendly group content to itemization,  polar opposite of  world of warcraft. And I'll be glad to hear if raiding simply dies out or changes dramatically. 

no one is selected over 5% DPS lol, doing half benchmark is fine for pugs. Casuals make themselves unhappy, if they don't want to play the content then just skip it, it's as simple as that. Same goes for pvp or wvw if a player isn't able to play that content it's stupid to debuff the player to compensate, either they learn or they skip 😉
well if you want a casual game you'll be better off playing retail WoW you'll be able to do everything up to raids without needing a brain because item stats vary very little and there is a poor influence of your trait choice and on top of that if you farm gold you can buy stuff that let you be overgeared for the said content which seems to be way easier than learning how to press 10 key in a row. Making GW2 another braindead game by having imposed stats/traits wouldn't do it any good to the game, it would become just another generic piece of quaggan.

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

Well my take to all of this is Arena.NET gives player not much reason to stay.

 

Let me explain in the past I was more on the side of the so called "casuals"  . It made a large potion of our guild . The problem in general is if people doing only open world events the majority will be at some point gone or moved on the the end-content. This flip we could see the last 2-3 years in our guild from 90% doing open world stuff it now 10% and 90% doing raids, fractals and wvw

 

Endcontent in GW2 are raids, fractal , sPvP , WvW.

 

Dungeons , Strike-Missions and DMs aren't . The reason for Strike-Missions and DMs is the missing rewards you don't do them for anything but fun or achievements (or absurd grind for skins)and even if Strike-Mission could be called endcontent there is no real new content with CM modes connected.

 

Without new content besides new maps this game is on the way of the dodo. Since the end of living story Season 4 GW2 doesn't come out of what is basically a disaster mode.

 

- Nearly no new end-content (besides the new 100 fractal)

- crazy balancing in all game modes

- the distance between other MMO became more apparent with systems not really working and some became really ancient like the lfg.

- also more in general Arena.NET seems to try to make the game easier but with this they made the game for a large potion of the player base absolute boring.

 

I don't know what Arean.NET has planned with the new add-on but if it is the same no new end-content and the same easy mode guard or necro meta. I think a lot of players will simple log off after they played the story through.

[ButterPeanut.9746]

5 minutes ago, Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

Well my take to all of this is Arena.NET gives player not much reason to stay.

 

Let me explain in the past I was more on the side of the so called "casuals"  . It made a large potion of our guild . The problem in general is if people doing only open world events the majority will be at some point gone or moved on the the end-content. This flip we could see the last 2-3 years in our guild from 90% doing open world stuff it now 10% and 90% doing raids, fractals and wvw

 

Endcontent in GW2 are raids, fractal , sPvP , WvW.

 

Dungeons , Strike-Missions and DMs aren't . The reason for Strike-Missions and DMs is the missing rewards you don't do them for anything but fun or achievements (or absurd grind for skins)and even if Strike-Mission could be called endcontent there is no real new content with CM modes connected.

 

Without new content besides new maps this game is on the way of the dodo. Since the end of living story Season 4 GW2 doesn't come out of what is basically a disaster mode.

 

- Nearly no new end-content (besides the new 100 fractal)

- crazy balancing in all game modes

- the distance between other MMO became more apparent with systems not really working and some became really ancient like the lfg.

- also more in general Arena.NET seems to try to make the game easier but with this they made the game for a large potion of the player base absolute boring.

 

I don't know what Arean.NET has planned with the new add-on but if it is the same no new end-content and the same easy mode guard or necro meta. I think a lot of players will simple log off after they played the story through.

They explicitly already stated that Strikes are getting a reward re-work and that the CMs should be raid level difficulty, so that seems to answer your concerns, if you believe them that is. 

[Vinceman.4572]

Strikes are the discounters of GW2 like Aldi & Lidl are for supermarkets. Cheap, you can get a little bit of what you need but you won't find the best products here. Sadly this is Anet's way of dealing with "good" content.

 

Oh man I would lead groups into raids if we could get two different difficulties like in other games with raids but that will never happen.

[Linken.6345]

11 hours ago, Vinceman.4572 said:

Strikes are the discounters of GW2 like Aldi & Lidl are for supermarkets. Cheap, you can get a little bit of what you need but you won't find the best products here. Sadly this is Anet's way of dealing with "good" content.

 

Oh man I would lead groups into raids if we could get two different difficulties like in other games with raids but that will never happen.

Most bosses already have 2 modes normal and challenge mode.

[Vinceman.4572]

On 8/29/2021 at 8:44 PM, Linken.6345 said:

Most bosses already have 2 modes normal and challenge mode.

Correct but it showed that even normal mode is too hard for the usual gw2 player. That's also a big reason why raids are not in an active development any more. I loved raiding when they were relatively new and found a lot of people I still had contact to after quitting.
Raids have a certain atmosphere, same for dungeons which still are one of the best content in GW2 in my opinion and fractals to a certain extinct although they are very generic and behind the teleportation technique of the lobby. Strikes are like platforms with a boss and no solid background history or lore. Of course they belong to the icebrood saga but if you delete the blue & icy color of the boss room they could be enemies in whatever region. That's why I think they are cheap discounts of raiding.

 

In the past Anet has shown that they can produce decent story parts with NPCs following, even with a mount, and not having a bug festival. I'm heavily disappointed that there hasn't been at least one dungeon since PoF but Griffon & Roller Beetle adventures almost nobody is repeating and much more. There are really good dungeons in other games that don't need to be copied but at least take some ideas from there.

Sad, that they make the wrong conclusions in the past after the release of twilight arbor aetherpath back in the days.

[Bakeneko.5826]

42 minutes ago, Vinceman.4572 said:

Correct but it showed that even normal mode is too hard for the usual gw2 player. That's also a big reason why raids are not in an active development any more. I loved raiding when they were relatively new and found a lot of people I still had contact to after quitting.
Raids have a certain atmosphere, same for dungeons which still are one of the best content in GW2 in my opinion and fractals to a certain extinct although they are very generic and behind the teleportation technique of the lobby. Strikes are like platforms with a boss and no solid background history or lore. Of course they belong to the icebrood saga but if you delete the blue & icy color of the boss room they could be enemies in whatever region. That's why I think they are cheap discounts of raiding.

 

In the past Anet has shown that they can produce decent story parts with NPCs following, even with a mount, and not having a bug festival. I'm heavily disappointed that there hasn't been at least one dungeon since PoF but Griffon & Roller Beetle adventures almost nobody is repeating and much more. There are really good dungeons in other games that don't need to be copied but at least take some ideas from there.

Sad, that they make the wrong conclusions in the past after the release of twilight arbor aetherpath back in the days.

Weren't you stating, that raids didn't need easier modes in thread, where it was discussed? Raids were killed by raid community, not by devs, or there being no easy mode.

[Fangoth.4503]

15 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Weren't you stating, that raids didn't need easier modes in thread, where it was discussed? Raids were killed by raid community, not by devs, or there being no easy mode.

yeah better blame others than learning how to play the content or make your own lfg 🙃

Edited August 31, 2021 by Fangoth.4503

[mindcircus.1506]

On 8/23/2021 at 9:14 AM, artharon.9276 said:

Gw2 should go back to its roots. From marketing to gameplay, friendly group content to itemization,  polar opposite of  world of warcraft. And I'll be glad to hear if raiding simply dies out or changes dramatically. 

Back to it's roots.... you mean a game where PvE is only there to educate you on the key concepts for competitive?