Do you like the daredevil trade-off?

[Crab Fear.1624]

My rant or skip to the poll:

"To use the example of necromancer, by choosing an elite specialization, you lose access to your core Death Shroud abilities, but you gain different abilities. This is a clear trade-off. "

quoted from here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/74356/game-update-notes-april-23-2019#latest

Other than some minor rework to the traits, with the masters in need of yet another rework, and the nerf to steal range, what DIFFERENT ABILITIES do we gain?

Now, you are going to say the dodges, but we can only use 1 at a time, and those are grandmaster traits. Are you saying the trade is for traits? Your example got different traits too.

Their F-Mechanic actually function differently with different skills.

Everyone remembers you nerfed acrobatics to make daredevil, that is all daredevil is, acrobatics 2.0 .

The tradeoff was already there.

What you should have done is had daredevil gain different abilities.

What we have now is not cutting it.

Forgive us if we don't trust the unrealistically positive anecdotes of a few, without actual proof no less.

PVE perspective then:

HOW does this trade help pve player? It does not.

[Crab Fear.1624]

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75887/untraited-swipe-wheres-the-beef#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/76324/swipe-change#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/76213/the-swipe-change-is-lazy-development#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75484/the-new-daredevil-is-not-good#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75830/swipe-should-have-its-own-subset-of-stolen-skills#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75558/any-new-wvw-dd-builds-with-the-recent-changes#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75715/swipe-to-a-more-melee-oriented-change#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/74822/condi-daredevil-no-synergetic-master-trait#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75795/a-suggestion-to-make-daredevil-a-close-quarter-dueling-spec-with-adding-new-mechanics#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75025/swipe-is-more-than-50-nerf#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/74842/staff-should-have-blocks#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75255/is-dp-dead#latest

There are more out there, but there seems to be general consensus by the "active" thief community that the daredevil needs some help.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

F1 skill should be somthing different than its co-specs. It was just the core f1 and now it's just a worse version of it. They coulda had f1 transform the staff into a guandau for a set duration complete with it's own set of kung fu esq brawler skills. Maybe not best idea but way more interactive etc than swipe.

[saerni.2584]

Unblockable doesn’t help Daredevil that much.

I feel a cooldown reduction would be better and making it into a melee style attack. Then unblockable would make more sense. You could also redo the stolen skills to complement close range combat. Basically, if you want to redo steal you need to look at range, functionality and F2 skills and not just add unblockable and cut the range of an existing carbon copy of steal (teleport with same stolen skills).

[Turk.5460]

I don't like what they changed it to, but I do think that Steal should have been changed to something else anyway. It only makes sense, why should DE get a brand new mechanic, but DrD was always stuck with the same one as Core? Perhaps if they made swipe inherently cause some conditions, or at least give it a lower cooldown for its reduced range. On top of that, it should have a all new stolen abilities.

[kash.9213]

@saerni.2584 said:Unblockable doesn’t help Daredevil that much.

I feel a cooldown reduction would be better and making it into a melee style attack. Then unblockable would make more sense. You could also redo the stolen skills to complement close range combat. Basically, if you want to redo steal you need to look at range, functionality and F2 skills and not just add unblockable and cut the range of an existing carbon copy of steal (teleport with same stolen skills).

It really was a lazy balancing when they had a chance to make it unique like Mark, really only being a tradeoff and nothing else, unless the icon image is suppose to be the unique part. Mark changes from Steal make sense and have synergy with Deadeye traits and with Rifle and propels their strengths but also works well with other traits, skills, and weapons.

[Alatar.7364]

Don't have anything to add as I agree with all posts so far.There are just so many options/ideas as to what else Swipe could have been to either be a real trade-off or fitting mechanic.Right now it is just a bit tasteless.While I could get over Swipe if its range was at least 900 I still have to agree that changing the skill to something completely different but much more fitting (as you said something that doesn't have to be a port) would probably be the option with bigger potential to make DD what they wanted it be. I particularly liked the ideas to make it sort of a "Mode" that gives you different abilities on Weapon bar, but for me personally it's nonetheless hard to imagine how it would work without being too distant to "logic of the theme"(sorry no idea how to describe it in a way that makes more sense)

[derd.6413]

i do believe swipe is the trade-off for the dodges but the dodges need some serious updating

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Its gotten to the point that I've been running DA in all my builds just due to the improv and the ability to use stolen skills twice adding some flavor to the builds lolAll these years never even really like the traitline lol

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Honestly u want arenet and the community to really take notice how "amazing " is as a brawler? Every thief should roll DD in conquest and just constantly try and fulfill the side mode role lol sure most games will go great for ur teammates, not to mention if no ones rolling s/d just to decap I wonder how many will make it to high ranks? Lol those same players that play other classes that pop into thief threads talking about how their fine in 1v1 will be yelling at u asking why ur trying to 1v1 with thief as their losing the matchlmao

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

Pretty much an echo to other complaints. Don't know why I bother voicing complaints, as Anet pretends we are happy and having fun with their changes

[MrForz.1953]

I... guess I understand what was the purpose of inserting such a trade off but it was so poorly executed there are no words for it.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

I like the dev team's recent direction, but Swipe is silly.

There was no reason to reduce the steal range, at least not by that much. Unblockable doesn't matter because most thieves will not steal to a block. They will steal to interrupt key skills which are normally heals. The defense modifications made to thief via Weakening Strikes and Marauders Resilience do not compensate on their own for the playstyle Swipe promotes, so at this point Swipe is a direct nerf.

What am I going to steal to, that would really ruin my day if the steal itself were blocked? I can only think of Arcane Shield on Ele and Shelter on Guard being affected by this, and one of those class matchups I am encouraged to avoid when I run thief anyway. Other than that, what other use case is there?

I am all for the idea of a brawler thief, but this isn't it. There needs to be something else on Swipe if the range nerf is set in stone.

[InsaneQR.7412]

If they really wanna go with the theme then they should add dmg nd a cleave and new stolen skills that account as physical skills.

[Jack Redline.5379]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

At least we finally agree upon something in a poll could this be? Thieves actually agreeing upon something? Am i going nuts?

[Jack Redline.5379]

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:

Also I think Anet voiced their oppinion on THIEVES rly clear in last LwS xD

"THIEVES! YOU ARE MY ANGUISH! YOU! YOUR WORLD ENDS!"

so much for subtle 4th wall breaking xD

[NuhDah.9812]

I don't particulary like the range nerf, but if they want to justify it going the browler route then I would sugest halving steal cooldown, or lowering it so you can use its benefits more often in a close quarters fight. Also, changing the stolen skills to suit a brawler combat style might be warranted.

[Wiler.9873]

90% No.

Holy .... this is like the most one sided pool I ever seen around here.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Wiler.9873 said:90% No.

Holy .... this is like the most one sided pool I ever seen around here.

Yet will be ignored more than likely

[Shiyo.3578]

Daredevil looks the tools to be a bruiser in any game mode. Swipe needs to give skills like block/healing and staff needs blocks/healing. Ranger greatsword is a better bruiser weapon than staff....

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I get they tried to give DD some sustain through the traits and woulda been decent on a different type of class,one that already had decent sustain. With thief I feel like they shoulda jumped the 10 % to 20% damage reduction,20% dps on full endurance dropping 5% for each bar used and shoulda changed all steal skills to something that's actually significant to a brawler spec. Having all three dodges available as f skills also woulda added great flavor and interactivity to the spec as it could actually adapt on the fly to different circumstances. Such a waste of potential to what coulda been a really unique class. If ur gonna have a class that gets 2 shot by all other classes if a mistake is made its gotta do enough dps to down other classes on it's own quickly or its gonna be delegated to a +1 decapper spec along side core.

[Engal.6359]

1 person said yes ?

The numbers in this poll should tell anet everything they need to know...

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Engal.6359 said:1 person said yes ?

The numbers in this poll should tell anet everything they need to know...

You would think.

[omgdracula.6345]

The issue is the dodges already had tradeoffs built in. Dash gives us exhaustions, bound is short range, daggers is garbage for anything but condi which is in itself bad.

[ZDragon.3046]

@omgdracula.6345 said:The issue is the dodges already had tradeoffs built in. Dash gives us exhaustions, bound is short range, daggers is garbage for anything but condi which is in itself bad.

The only issue with this argument i that if one wanted none of those negatives you could just take the traitline off put it back on and not use those 3 grandmasters in which eliminates the trade offs entirely

While i do find it odd that anet chose now to rework another trade off into Daredevil i dont think its a question on if they should undo it its more so when are the other professions that still currently do not lose anything lose something for the benefits they get (looking at you chronomancer, scrapper, holo, and soul beast) These 4 possibly 5 if you want to count mirage do not realistically lose anything serious.

note im not specifically talking about loss of damage its more so real mechanics on skills or certain skills that in question one would normally always half as a core of that profession.For example why does chrono not lose their f4 in place of the f5Why does holo and scrapper keep the majority of tool belt skillsSoulbeast has no negative for merging with the pets which even auto revives them why do they keep the option to have a swappable pet etc.