What’re we losing with no sub?

[lezbefriends.7516]

Obviously you get what you pay for so sacrifices have to be made to keep this game “free” for a majority of players.

 

I’ve played the 2 juggernaut sub games and an optional-sub mmo. I’ve played GW2 since Beta.

 

What I’ve learned is that sub affords true endgame raiding and dungeon content with hard trinity—the true AAA MMORPG experience.

 

Less obvious advantages to the sub are free armor appearance changes and new races/mounts with each expansion.

 

Just what are we gaining/losing to keep this game sub-free? Is it worth it?

Edited August 3, 2022 by lezbefriends.7516

[Valisha.8650]

Probably all those storage expanders, bag slots, bank tabs and similar stuff.

[Gibson.4036]

4 minutes ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

What I’ve learned is that sub affords true endgame raiding and dungeon content with hard trinity—the true AAA MMORPG experience.

Then I'm glad to not pay a sub. No interest in raiding with a hard trinity.

[Aodlop.1907]

The only thing that's bad with the current system is that every single mount skin is a gem store item, and every cool looking weapon or piece of armor is a gem store item.

There's barely anything good looking to earn by doing in-game activities in GW2.

[Randulf.7614]

Pretty certain the game wouldn’t exist with a sub. So we are gaining the game.

Also, you don’t list sub advantages, just generic mmo tropes. That is not tied to sub, but the original design vision.

[Labjax.2465]

Compared to pure sub game (e.g. sub and no cash shop) it's def worse. Basically all we gain is if you have no money and no credit card, nothing at all you could pay with, you can get a subpar experience without paying in exchange for other people paying more. Or if you have self control and free time in spades, you can get lots through gold to gems exchange while paying little. This concept was insidiously sold on the idea that it'd be rich people funding it ("whales") but it has become clear over the years that some of the people who spend most on these games can't actually afford to, they are going into savings, credit card, etc., and like a casino, they have a vulnerability to spending that is being exploited.

So... it's a pretty sick model, when you think about it.

[Danikat.8537]

11 minutes ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

What I’ve learned is that sub affords true endgame raiding and dungeon content with hard trinity—the true AAA MMORPG experience.

If a subscription fee means restricting the end game to raiding and dungeons with a trinity system then I definitely don't want one.

However I suspect that just because what used to be the default MMO payment model is often found in games that also use generic MMO progression systems doesn't mean the two have to be tied together. Funnelling everyone into dungeons and raids probably makes it easier to implement a gear treadmill (reliant on random drops) so even when players aren't really playing they have an incentive to keep paying their subscription so they can grind for gear so they don't fall too far behind, but that's probably not the only method subscription MMOs can use to encourage spending more than you might otherwise want to. (Or a gear treadmill could be tied to other types of content.) I know some have used other forms of time-gates, like houses that get deleted if you don't log in, or restricting things like levelling up mounts or crafting to once per day.

Given that different content types don't necessarily have to be tied to specific payment models I find it hard to say how GW2 might be different with a subscription (other than it wouldn't exist, because making an MMO without a sub was the reason Anet was created) but I do know I've never found another MMO I like as much as this one and the systems which pressure you to log in regularly and spend enough time to justify the sub are a factor in that, so for me that model is an overall negative.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

GW2 was billed as the MMO for people who hated traditional MMO's.  Sure, ANet said if you liked traditional MMO's, you should check out GW2.  But, it's not going to be possible for any game to appeal broadly across both demographics.  You couldn't pay me to return to the two "juggernaut" sub MMO's.  Not that I am totally in love with GW2, but it has had enough to keep me playing for ten years.

[Vayne.8563]

41 minutes ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

Obviously you get what you pay for so sacrifices have to be made to keep this game “free” for a majority of players.

 

I’ve played the 2 juggernaut sub games and an optional-sub mmo. I’ve played GW2 since Beta.

 

What I’ve learned is that sub affords true endgame raiding and dungeon content with hard trinity—the true AAA MMORPG experience.

 

Less obvious advantages to the sub are free armor appearance changes and new races/mounts with each expansion.

 

Just what are we gaining/losing to keep this game sub-free? Is it worth it?

See, I got away from other MMOs to get away from that "truth end game". Because an endgame is prevalent, doesn't make it the "true" end game at all. What we're missing is the grind to get to that stuff, because in a sub MMO, they want you to keep playing longer to pay longer. 

 

The fact that people have been brainwashed  that raids must be the defacto PvE end game in all MMOs is part of the biggest problems MMOs face in retaining players. That this MMO is different is why many of us are here.

[DexterousGecko.6328]

I don't know, I see GW2 pushing end-game instanced content more, and it starts looking awfully like all the other mmos.

[Riaenvyr.2091]

If You happen to be actually curious about the answer, here are a couple of pages to peruse:

If not, and we're just sparking another wildfire, lemme grab some popcorn to grill 'n chill.

[Labjax.2465]

15 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

See, I got away from other MMOs to get away from that "truth end game". Because an endgame is prevalent, doesn't make it the "true" end game at all. What we're missing is the grind to get to that stuff, because in a sub MMO, they want you to keep playing longer to pay longer. 

 

The fact that people have been brainwashed  that raids must be the defacto PvE end game in all MMOs is part of the biggest problems MMOs face in retaining players. That this MMO is different is why many of us are here.

I think you're correct that pure sub MMOs are more invested in keeping you playing for longer, BUT they also don't have the "cash shop infects everything" design that a game like GW2 does. And there are some of these gear grind MMOs where they have indicated that they expect some people to show up for content and then leave until there is more content.

GW2 also does have some "keep you around" hooks in it for sure, just in different ways. Like the entire legendary system, or other such forms of account progression that take months or years to accomplish.

Something that I think Danikat touched on, is that sub model doesn't necessarily have to be a raid MMO gear treadmill, that's just what the standard became. And that arguably became the standard largely because of WoW and its success. Consider another MMO that happened around the time WoW did (within a year or so of each other) and despite being a major IP, struggled with retention due to bugs and unfinished features and the like, SWG. That game was much more like GW2 (well, GW2 in its early life anyway) in that there was no de facto PvE end game. In fact, I'm not sure there was a single fight in it you could call a raid. There were enemies that took groups to take down, for sure, but nothing I remember that was like the instanced, boilerplate mechanics style that has become a standard of most MMOs. And in some ways, it was actually far more open-ended than GW2 is, with some people having content out of playing an entertainer profession in the game, where they'd dance or play an instrument in the game and chat with the adventurers who came there; who were designed to be pushed there because of battle fatigue they got from fighting, which was healed by entertainers.

That was a sub game and I'm now getting very nostalgic thinking about and sad about it being gone, but the point is not my nostalgia, the point is it was a VERY different game than what is usually thought of as a sub game and it still was one.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[Freya.9075]

we gain a game where your gear doesn’t lose its value every season. And thousands of hours with gameplay for a small amount of money compared to sub based games. You can pay up for gemstore items you want, or buy them with in game gold. Gw2 is the cheapest mmo I’ve played. So imo we gain way more then sub based games. 
 

this clearly also depends on your gaming habits.  Someone that sticks to a game year after year would have much more to gain with a no sub game then a game hopper who plays a month in a sub game then takes a break or move on to another mmo.  

Edited August 3, 2022 by Freya.9075

[Asum.4960]

As far as I'm aware "Micro"transactions far outperform both sub fees and box sales (mainly due to the exploitation of "Whales" and gambling addicts) - which is exactly why most box-sold sub-fee games started triple dipping into MTX as well (so - no, with a Sub-Fee in place they would still sell Mount skins and the like rather than making them all earnable ingame. Why make far less money by cutting the biggest earner, MTX, when you can make way more by triple dipping into subs, box sales and MTX?). 

 

In a world where gaming CEO's pocket >150 million dollar bonuses while laying off 800 developers in the same year, I really wouldn't worry about what your spending contributes towards in actual game development.

So I'm guessing what we are losing is slightly less frequently new private CEO jets.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Cronospere.8143]

1 hour ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

The only thing that's bad with the current system is that every single mount skin is a gem store item, and every cool looking weapon or piece of armor is a gem store item.

There's barely anything good looking to earn by doing in-game activities in GW2.

in all honesty i think that wont be any different with having a sub or not.. It's the choices ANet makes..

[Svarty.8019]

1 hour ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

What’re we losing with no sub?

Cornerstones.

[Strider Pj.2193]

5 minutes ago, Svarty.8019 said:

Cornerstones.

Lost that in the DBL already.  😬

 

I just love how everyone that loves sub’s comes to one of the games that doesn’t have one, instead of playing the ones that do.,  

 

If you want a sub, as others have said you have two choices:  

-  buy gems ($10-15) each month.

-  play other games.  
 

I am missing nothing.  I enjoy the game we have.  

[Vayne.8563]

44 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I think you're correct that pure sub MMOs are more invested in keeping you playing for longer, BUT they also don't have the "cash shop infects everything" design that a game like GW2 does. And there are some of these gear grind MMOs where they have indicated that they expect some people to show up for content and then leave until there is more content.

GW2 also does have some "keep you around" hooks in it for sure, just in different ways. Like the entire legendary system, or other such forms of account progression that take months or years to accomplish.

Something that I think Danikat touched on, is that sub model doesn't necessarily have to be a raid MMO gear treadmill, that's just what the standard became. And that arguably became the standard largely because of WoW and its success. Consider another MMO that happened around the time WoW did (within a year or so of each other) and despite being a major IP, struggled with retention due to bugs and unfinished features and the like, SWG. That game was much more like GW2 (well, GW2 in its early life anyway) in that there was no de facto PvE end game. In fact, I'm not sure there was a single fight in it you could call a raid. There were enemies that took groups to take down, for sure, but nothing I remember that was like the instanced, boilerplate mechanics style that has become a standard of most MMOs. And in some ways, it was actually far more open-ended than GW2 is, with some people having content out of playing an entertainer profession in the game, where they'd dance or play an instrument in the game and chat with the adventurers who came there; who were designed to be pushed there because of battle fatigue they got from fighting, which was healed by entertainers.

That was a sub game and I'm now getting very nostalgic thinking about and sad about it being gone, but the point is not my nostalgia, the point is it was a VERY different game than what is usually thought of as a sub game and it still was one.

$180 a year for sub games, plus the price of expansions? I don't think most people pay anywhere near that, and I don't feel the cash shop infects everything anyway.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

GW2 could be different with a subscription. Less gemstore stuff and maybe more content. (Not that we're lacking content)

But many players chose Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 because they don't want a subscription MMO. And because many players who dislike subscriptions specially flocked to GW2, there is not really a viable option away from it.

[Lottie.5370]

Oh, this thread again. Yawn. 🥱

[DexterousGecko.6328]

1 minute ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I don't think most people pay anywhere near that, and I don't feel the cash shop infects everything anyway.

 

most? no, the whales probably spend 80%. As for "infecting everything", how many mount skins are unlockable by playing? How often do you see mounts? How many quality of life items are locked behind the cash shop/black lion chests?

[Labjax.2465]

9 minutes ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

I just love how everyone that loves sub’s comes to one of the games that doesn’t have one, instead of playing the ones that do.

I'm not sure there are many purely sub MMOs left though, as in only sub and no cash shop (I'm struggling to think of examples, but I don't keep up with every MMO out there). There was one I played years back, Rift, that was sub for the first few years or so and then went F2P and our guild kinda fell off after that. Not only for that reason, but that was part of it. Or more recently, I played SWTOR which is sub + f2p + cash shop and then watched them make parts of it unrecognizable with their most recent "expansion" and had enough after that and other screwups they'd done other times I played it.

So expecting people to go elsewhere is kinda... idk... mean? Some of us did play those kind of games at one time or another and then they disappeared out from under us. Yeah, this might annoy some people who love this game to death, but... this game wasn't my first choice, or second, or third, etc... I like it in many ways or I wouldn't stick around for any length of time and I wish the best for it as it pertains to people who love it, but I've played MMOs I liked more. Just some of the MMOs I liked more don't exist anymore, least not as they were.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[Strider Pj.2193]

6 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I'm not sure there are many purely sub MMOs left though, as in only sub and no cash shop (I'm struggling to think of examples, but I don't keep up with every MMO out there). There was one I played years back, Rift, that was sub for the first few years or so and then went F2P and our guild kinda fell off after that. Not only for that reason, but that was part of it. Or more recently, I played SWTOR which is sub + f2p + cash shop and then watched them make parts of it unrecognizable with their most recent "expansion" and had enough after that and other screwups they'd done other times I played it.

So expecting people to go elsewhere is kinda... idk... mean? Some of us did play those kind of games at one time or another and then they disappeared out from under us. Yeah, this might annoy some people who love this game to death, but... this game wasn't my first choice, or second, or third, etc... I like it in many ways or I wouldn't stick around for any length of time and I wish the best for it as it pertains to people who love it, but I've played MMOs I liked more. Just some of the MMOs I liked more don't exist anymore, least not as they were.

I guess I would ask where I expected people to go elsewhere.  People have free will.  They can make it their own sub game if they want and get many items off the TP.

 

The other choice would be to not play this game.  That’s not mean.  It’s simply a fact.  (Well, or play no game at all would be a possible third choice..)

 

People have choices.  Just because they may not like those choices, doesn’t mean they don’t have some.  
 

Also, ask yourself why some of those games don’t still exist.  This one has for (almost) 10 years.  It’s predecessor is still going.  It may be dying, but it’s still kicking.  And adding a subscription when we’ve already payed for the game would likely chase many of the people who keep the game active away.  
 

It’s not for everybody.  And, if a game came out with more focus on a realm vs realm mode that had combat like this one, and would allow for 90+ Versus 90+ versus 90+, and was updated, and buy to play, I’d try it as well.  But let’s face it, no one has been able to do it.  

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

20 minutes ago, Lottie.5370 said:

Oh, this thread again. Yawn. 🥱

Just usual Mortifera fare.

[Sobx.1758]

36 minutes ago, DexterousGecko.6328 said:

most? no, the whales probably spend 80%. As for "infecting everything", how many mount skins are unlockable by playing? How often do you see mounts? How many quality of life items are locked behind the cash shop/black lion chests?

Yeah, yeah. Everyone wants to complete content for a reward until they're going for skyscale or start eyeballing that legendary. 🙃

Mountskin in gemstore as a complaint for subscription model... hah, ok. 😄 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Sobx.1758