October 4 Balance Update Preview

[SolarDragon.7063]

9 hours ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Hi everyone, back with a quick update:

 

Since the preview we've seen a lot of feedback around the proposed change to convert Scrapper gyros into ground-targeted stationary spells. The main concern we've seen is that this change would remove the unique feeling of the skills without replacing it with something new.

We agree – we'll be reverting the proposed changes and will be making a different set of adjustments to Purge and Sneak Gyro for WvW:

• Sneak Gyro: Reduced stealth duration from 1.5 seconds to 1 second in WvW only. Reduced number of pulses from 6 to 3 in WvW only. This skill is no longer a smoke field in WvW only. This skill now plays a visual indicator to enemies on activation.
• Purge Gyro: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in WvW only.

 

For clarification, we'll still be changing Defense Field into a ground-targeted skill in the October 4 update.

We'd still like to take a pass on updating the design of Scrapper gyros in the future, but not until we work out a replacement mechanic that feels both unique and fun to use.

As always, thanks to everyone who gave feedback on the upcoming changes; we really appreciate it.

 

Cal "cmc" Cohen

Skills and Balance Lead

So, I'm really happy to see gyros staying character-centric, they were originally ground skills when they first came out and that got changed because it was unfun in basically every mode. However, Defense Field moving to ground targeted is bad for WvW. Scrapper is so central to WvW because it's one of the few class kits that can actually protect a small but organised group from the haze of ranged damage of large, unorganised groups well enough to make engagement possible. Making even just Defense Field ground targeted is reducing this, which means we'll just see more dominance of "throw server queue at stuff" play and less of the actual give-and-take fights that are key to keeping it interesting.
Stealth in WvW is a really complex topic but removing the Smoke Field and reducing the duration at the same time seems like it risks turning something from highly centralising to completely useless because of nerfing two separate aspects at the same time, so I'd personally suggest only touching one aspect of the skill at a time?

[Xenesis.6389]

2 hours ago, cgMatt.5162 said:

A bit better but 10 target and 6-7s (traited, but who does that?) duration vs 5 target, 3s duration. Also Grav Well is too good a CC to give up for Mass Invis.

No drama, but the typical non-driver party comp has 2 support, 3 DPS. People comp in 15 for GvG so either Soulbeast/Daredevil/Chrono will cover the stealth, or run 3 Scrapper with this change and OOC Bomb Kit (no Tempest anymore bc no smoke field) or unorganized groups in open field won't run it at all.

lol no one is going to replace a scrapper to run a soulbeast or daredevil for stealth, and chronos were already limited in numbers and veil was already present, but they certainly won't replace a scrapper, not even close, there's no reason not to keep using both sneak gyro and veil.

If all your group ever brought a scrapper for was stealth then that was a massive waste for your group. Scrapper will still be meta, and will still run sneak gyro because the stealth still works even if it's down to veil duration, you can still quickly use it in mid combat to quickly reposition and get superspeed burst still. Group space is limited and practically every class has a spec better to run than a ranger or thief in the group.

[Ronin.4501]

This is what, the 3rd update in a row where Anet has proposed a change only to roll it back??? Regardless of whether or not the rollback is good or bad, all this flip-flopping on proposed changes makes it seem like 1) the devs don't actually play most of the classes they're proposing changes to and 2) they have no idea what they're doing. It's really not a good look at all.

[SolarDragon.7063]

8 minutes ago, Ronin.4501 said:

This is what, the 3rd update in a row where Anet has proposed a change only to roll it back??? Regardless of whether or not the rollback is good or bad, all this flip-flopping on proposed changes makes it seem like 1) the devs don't actually play most of the classes they're proposing changes to and 2) they have no idea what they're doing. It's really not a good look at all.

I mean, new team leads. I'd rather they propose changes then listen to feedback before going live than literally any other option. Maybe they don't know what they're doing, but if they don't, I'd rather they did it this way and actually learned, than any other approach.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Thanks for the communication @Cal Cohen.2358! I appreciate the transparency and openness to feed back! 

[FreshF.5793]

9 hours ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Hi everyone, back with a quick update:

 

Since the preview we've seen a lot of feedback around the proposed change to convert Scrapper gyros into ground-targeted stationary spells. The main concern we've seen is that this change would remove the unique feeling of the skills without replacing it with something new.

We agree – we'll be reverting the proposed changes and will be making a different set of adjustments to Purge and Sneak Gyro for WvW:

• Sneak Gyro: Reduced stealth duration from 1.5 seconds to 1 second in WvW only. Reduced number of pulses from 6 to 3 in WvW only. This skill is no longer a smoke field in WvW only. This skill now plays a visual indicator to enemies on activation.
• Purge Gyro: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in WvW only.

 

For clarification, we'll still be changing Defense Field into a ground-targeted skill in the October 4 update.

We'd still like to take a pass on updating the design of Scrapper gyros in the future, but not until we work out a replacement mechanic that feels both unique and fun to use.

As always, thanks to everyone who gave feedback on the upcoming changes; we really appreciate it.

 

Cal "cmc" Cohen

Skills and Balance Lead

Any Chance you just leave defense field as it is right now in PvE? It is so useful e.g. on the Adina RAID Boss, where otherwise only the Tablet from revenant is an alternative.

[Chaos.9270]

i kinda l ike the way you are going here, but I am not sure if I'd really agree with "nerfing" Stealth Gyro that much, as it is Scrapper-specific only Invisible Skill (if you don't count using Elixir S + Toolbelt), while other classes remain higher stealth uptime. But this is a step in the correct direction and as you said, if there will be upcoming patches in the future to Scrapper specific, I'm happy to hear that. 

[cgMatt.5162]

39 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

lol no one is going to replace a scrapper to run a soulbeast or daredevil for stealth, and chronos were already limited in numbers and veil was already present, but they certainly won't replace a scrapper, not even close, there's no reason not to keep using both sneak gyro and veil.

If all your group ever brought a scrapper for was stealth then that was a massive waste for your group. Scrapper will still be meta, and will still run sneak gyro because the stealth still works even if it's down to veil duration, you can still quickly use it in mid combat to quickly reposition and get superspeed burst still. Group space is limited and practically every class has a spec better to run than a ranger or thief in the group.

In GvG Immob Soulbeast and Daredevil are part of party comps, and they do not replace Scrapper. They just replace a 2nd smoke field. The only thing bad about this change is the removal of the smoke field which means you have to run 3 Scrapper as opposed to 2 Scrapper + 1 Tempest which knocks Tempest out of comp. 

Open field fighting for general WvW, yeah this is a better change for reducing the amount of easy stealth engage. Only more skilled or tryhard groups will be able to blast for stealth with the right comp.

[Xephir.7635]

In your quest to get mobile gyros back you just destroyed scrapper in wvw. No smoke on elite? What? I dont even play scrapper that much and I know this wont be a good thing in wvw 

[cgMatt.5162]

They could actually gut Medical Dispersion Field or Med Kit 1 heals somewhat and then the healing would be comparable to Tempest. idk about trimming the cooldown on cleanses like Purge Gyro/Fumigate/Cleansing Field though because Tempest without Glyph Res is already competitive in cleanse numbers. Removing the smoke field on Stealth Gyro just removes Tempest as a replacement in comp. Ideally the ratio for Tempest in a squad will be 15:1 where Scrapper is 15:2, but if no smoke field on Sneak Gyro then Tempest is deadish. The stealth duration per pulse does not matter.

Edited October 2, 2022 by cgMatt.5162

[LordHT.8297]

3 hours ago, Ghos.1326 said:

Nerfing classes isn't the problem. If we only buff, then we get to a point where any and every skill will one shot everything. That's not fun

When we get to that point, just buff everyone's health 😛

[Kal Durak.2830]

21 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

No, but you instead get an effect when using your elite skill making it easier to pull off whatever you were doing. Somewhat active play instead of passive play. As for this particular skill its still unique because it activates an ele skill. Some of the other 300s changes are less unique, but better than having a ton of 300s cooldown skills.

The Cata PvP build benefits from this change.

Maybe they need to nerf, PERMA stealths on RANGERS, Thieves, MesMERS, on and on and then worry about a small stealth to Eng. 

[Extacy.6192]

Gyro should have been changed to be only a smoke field. That way it would have forced skillful play. You had to balst correctly and there would be a clear distinction from skills like veil mass stealh elite form mesmer.

The other changes sound good.

But please rework how projectile absorb/reflects work. One bubble shouldn't be able to block an unlimited amount of projectiles. It is just unfun for so many classes.

Also please buff druid and tempest even more. I guess with these recent scrapper changes it will still not be enough to make them a real alternative in zerg play. On demand instant stealth ist just too good, paired with super speed, stability, projectile absorb, cleanse, boon conversion and permanent accessable sustain healing. Don't nerf scrapper again, but buff druid and temepst even more.

 

Druid staff 2 shouldn't be a projectile anymore, buff the healing on staff 1 significantly and rework the penalties on leaving CA earlier and some other things like the CA stealth trait.

 

On tempest please find a way how it can give alac AND heal on auras at the same time. Shuffle the traits around for this. Make aura sharing on 10 targets again. This would be sufficient to make it a real alternative for every second group.

Thanks

 

[Flow.2947]

wow well i love it. tbh i would have wanted the range on gyros, so it is a shift to dps scrapper and because i dont like the passiveness of the skills. 

 

meybe ppl dont realise it but this is a bigger nerv of Support then bevore imo 🙂

it is adressing the rights issues! 3 seconds only is a bit harsh tho on 60s cd. the clear sound indikation however wow this is the most amazing thing for copatitive play i didnt eaven thoght about. Knowing that there is something coming but not knowing from where ❤️ like blast. or massinvis 

 

and thx that the defensive feeld is stationary this gives opportiunities to get more projectils through (i hope) 

[Xenesis.6389]

11 hours ago, cgMatt.5162 said:

In GvG Immob Soulbeast and Daredevil are part of party comps, and they do not replace Scrapper. They just replace a 2nd smoke field. The only thing bad about this change is the removal of the smoke field which means you have to run 3 Scrapper as opposed to 2 Scrapper + 1 Tempest which knocks Tempest out of comp. 

Open field fighting for general WvW, yeah this is a better change for reducing the amount of easy stealth engage. Only more skilled or tryhard groups will be able to blast for stealth with the right comp.

GvG's, that's like 1% of all fights in the game.

Don't really care. When they leave their little playground in arenas to go back to wvw they use the regular spam boon ball meta.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Xenesis.6389

[Kodama.6453]

11 hours ago, obastable.5231 said:

I think it's pretty bad to change 2 gyros and not all of them. Either change them all or keep them all as is until you figure out what you want to do. Please don't implement inconsistent design, even if only temporary. A gyro should function the same regardless of what type of gyro it is - either make them all wells or keep them all moving aoe's, please for the love of good design don't do this half and half nonsense.

That's what they're doing? They will all stay mobile (for now). How did you get the idea that they just change some of them and some not?

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

3 hours ago, DtenCfour.3567 said:

What language are you speaking in?  That's communication.

I'm using the most uncommon language that for current  h o m o  sapiens seems impossible to understand these days, it's called "facts" and "logic".

Edit: Can moderators/administrators of this forum like stop with this wordphobia? It's disgusting that even normal  h o m o  sapiens is censored. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by TrollingDemigod.3041

[kurosy.1384]

Well, of course it gets reversed. I hope the superspeed change triggering at the start of the well also gets reversed. No need for unnecessary buffs, right?

4 hours ago, cgMatt.5162 said:

Tempest as a replacement in comp. Ideally the ratio for Tempest in a squad will be 15:1 where Scrapper is 15:2, but if no smoke field on Sneak Gyro then Tempest is deadish. The stealth duration per pulse does not matter.

Omg i even suggested no smoke field as a possible alternative but i wasn't considering this at all T_T
So hilarious, Tempest even manages to be nerfed undirectly and thrown out from his niche meta role..

Edited September 28, 2022 by kurosy.1384

[reapex.8546]

6 hours ago, FreshF.5793 said:

Any Chance you just leave defense field as it is right now in PvE? It is so useful e.g. on the Adina RAID Boss, where otherwise only the Tablet from revenant is an alternative.

There are many alternatives

[reapex.8546]

5 hours ago, DtenCfour.3567 said:

Yeah I see that as well.  I made a comment that was not a joke, this is turning into WoW balancing.  Everyone quit. 

An immeasurable number of people still play WoW.

[Aeolus.3615]

8 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

GvG's, that's like 1% of all fights in the game.

Don't really care.

People should do it on gw1 🙂 it's a better gvg anyway, rather than colide 20+ minstrells against each other.

 

i call the gvg fake pvp'ers 😛 been there and its way freaking lame compared with gw1 gvg

Edited September 28, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Gorem.8104]

Oh interesting, they changed gyro's back, but then basically removed the elite Scrappers get from the game. haha. 

 

Seriously, I miss Scrappers before EoD dropped, good times. There'll be so much less point to use them for any content after this, even with the gyro's changing back, just cause of the constant nerfs it keeps getting again and again. 

 

It was made useful, it was made into the best support spec for wvw. It had its place in pve and wvw, and yet now Anet is intent of removing its use in both pve and wvw. 

[crewthief.8649]

10 hours ago, cgMatt.5162 said:

A bit better but 10 target and 6-7s (traited, but who does that?) duration vs 5 target, 3s duration. Also Grav Well is too good a CC to give up for Mass Invis.

No drama, but the typical non-driver party comp has 2 support, 3 DPS. People comp in 15 for GvG so either Soulbeast/Daredevil/Chrono will cover the stealth, or run 3 Scrapper with this change and OOC Bomb Kit (no Tempest anymore bc no smoke field) or unorganized groups in open field won't run it at all.

The point, is that Mass Invisibility is an example of a stealth skill with high cooldown  (30 seconds more than new Sneak Gyro, btw). So, the new Sneak Gyro isn’t an anomaly. In fact, it could be said that the old Sneak Gyro was an anomaly as it was much, much better than any other similar skill on another class.

It’s funny, because the complaints from Scrapper mains started with gyros becoming ground-targeted wells and the way in which that removes a unique profession mechanic. And then, without precedent, CMC comes into the thread and announces that Anet has reversed their initial decision and will in fact NOT be changing gyros to ground-targeted AoEs! Yet, there are still some of you (you for example) complaining about deserved nerfs to Scrapper. 😂😂😂

Dude, Scrapper needs nerfing. It has needed it for a long time. Deal with it and be thankful they aren’t neutering the class like they’ve done with many, many other classes.

[Malus.2184]

I applaud these changes since it retains the identity of the Scrapper while reigning in some of the more problematic aspects. For the sake of consistency I would say that all Reflect Fields should be stationary as they're incrediubly disruptive and makes ranged gameplay literally impossible while they last. I'm all for that reflects that only affects one person follows the person, however, one reflect frield can effectively protect an full squad from ranged attacks while turning the damage on the person who did it..

Edited September 29, 2022 by Malus.2184

[Cuks.8241]

I never saw sneak gyro as problematic. And I dont like the changes, nerfs to it. Stealth jukes are fun. There are ways to know exactly when an enemy group is going to stealth (mark them and look at mini map when mark dissapears, listen for blast combos).

So in my  opinion the nerfs to it are redundant and will reduce the fun in WvW squad play. The sneak gyro is not why scrapper has a permanent spot in squads. Also if you want to nerf it (which again I dont think is a good way to go) dont nerf the smoke field. You're removing the skill component and now you wont be able to hear it coming.