A-Net please get rid of the DPS meters.

[Samnang.1879]

@Cynn.1659 said:

@mauried.5608 said:You keep talking about underperforming players.Can you explain in an objective way such that its understandable by all , what an underperforming player is ?

full berserker ele doing 5k dps, is beyond underperforming, you can get more dps by just casting lava fonts off cd and spamming staff 1is that simple enough?

nah ure being toxic! i wanna play the way i want... not do any dps and expect ppl to be nice to me while being lazy.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Samnang.1879 said:

@Cynn.1659 said:

@"mauried.5608" said:You keep talking about underperforming players.Can you explain in an objective way such that its understandable by all , what an underperforming player is ?

full berserker ele doing 5k dps, is beyond underperforming, you can get more dps by just casting lava fonts off cd and spamming staff 1is that simple enough?

nah ure being toxic! i wanna play the way i want... not do any dps and expect ppl to be nice to me while being lazy.

I wouldn't call them lazy. But ultimately it doesn't really matter why they are under-performing. As this thread demonstrates, there absolutely is the expectation that because this is a game, players should be able to play it their way. Players who feel this way are invariably affronted if you mention their performance. It merely confirms their view of elitism.

On the other hand, players on the other side of aisle take a different view of the situation. They resent players who don't "pull their weight" and, by the time a decision must be made regarding whether or not to reevaluate the group composition, being met with righteous indignation from the "play it your way" types is all it takes for that resentment to boil over.

I naively believed that simply being polite and putting other players first could resolve this conflict. I was wrong. So, does anyone else have any ideas or is this just irreconcilable? Best advice in that case: Make your expectations clear and never participate in organized group content with the other side?

[Deihnyx.6318]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Samnang.1879 said:

@Cynn.1659 said:

@"mauried.5608" said:You keep talking about underperforming players.Can you explain in an objective way such that its understandable by all , what an underperforming player is ?

full berserker ele doing 5k dps, is beyond underperforming, you can get more dps by just casting lava fonts off cd and spamming staff 1is that simple enough?

nah ure being toxic! i wanna play the way i want... not do any dps and expect ppl to be nice to me while being lazy.

I wouldn't call them lazy. But ultimately it doesn't really matter why they are under-performing. As this thread demonstrates, there absolutely is the expectation that because this is a game, players should be able to play it their way. Players who feel this way are invariably affronted if you mention their performance. It merely confirms their view of elitism.

On the other hand, players on the other side of aisle take a different view of the situation. They resent players who don't "pull their weight" and, by the time a decision must be made regarding whether or not to reevaluate the group composition, being met with righteous indignation from the "play it your way" types is all it takes for that resentment to boil over.

I naively believed that simply being polite and putting other players first could resolve this conflict. I was wrong. So, does anyone else have any ideas or is this just irreconcilable? Best advice in that case: Make your expectations clear and never participate in organized group content with the other side?

Just like in real life, social interactions inevitably bring some form of conflict sooner or later (Unless you go full Nintendo and allow no interaction whatsoever).

This first paragraph goes both ways. Yes everyone should be able to play their way. That include people who like big numbers. Nobody has the high ground over anyone and so asking for a specific set of the population to stop being elitist (that's what this thread really is about) is self-centered.I do want to point out the difference between toxic and elitist. Being elitist is fine, it's a way of playing and wanting to be as good as something as possible. Toxic is never fine however.

[mauried.5608]

Can someone please provide for all classes and builds , a list of what constitutes a player who is "performing", dps wise, as measured on the needed dps meters?You may also wish to include in the list a table of latency and ping times for players unfortunate enuf to live a long distance from the servers.

[cat.8975]

@mauried.5608 said:You keep talking about underperforming players.Can you explain in an objective way such that its understandable by all , what an underperforming player is ?

Underperforming to a certain standard. Different people will have different standards. For me, if you can't hit ~50-60% of the expected DPS of a DPS spec, is when I start cursing a bit (to myself and/or friends on comms). When it hits the 30-40% territory I consider leaving/kicking. I've gone through boss logs and looked at the individual player rotations, and boy, some of them are special. We had a DH that camped GS for the entire fight, never swapping to a different weapon set, and casting his trap and spear haphazardly and completely out of sync from one another. If I'm recalling correctly, this was on Mursaat Overseer, a boss with no mechanics (effectively) for a DPS player.

It's just... offensive? When people show up to organized group content where you're expected to know at least the bare minimum of your class and role without doing any research/practice beforehand. Some of these players play like they just picked up the game a week ago, or even worse.

That's what I consider to be underperforming.

[seinka.4823]

Just from the frequency, with which the words "toxicity" and "elitism" are thrown around, I'm more and more certain, these are just buzzwords with no real meaning, just used to guilt-trip players into chnaging their play style and preferences in order to prevent being (socially) put into the same box as the few jerks that exist in every human activity.

[Talindra.4958]

In fractal. If chrono is bad . I will leave group instead of kicking that one person. Better I leave than to hv to kick. I usually started the lfg and my lfg always ask for experienced chrono. If some guy just join to test his luck.. I will leave.Dps in fractal I don't care much unless the person does 5k only and keep dying.With CM .. ppl with KP generally are pretty meta. Usually runs are smooth.. theres no need to police ppl.In Raid.. dps meter I believe is for personal use. It can be use to help others to improve as a group too. Great feature :) don't use it for bully.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@mauried.5608 said:You keep talking about underperforming players.Can you explain in an objective way such that its understandable by all , what an underperforming player is ?

There's a lot of ways, and depends on where you are, but in general there's 3 major ways you'll be underperforming:1) Have a totally infective build. This will no doubt make you underperform. It doesn't mean you have to be meta, it means you need to make a build that works.

2) You have the right build, but you don't know how to use it. It happens a lot to people that just copy builds from a website, but don't take time to understand how skills synergize, and where the damage comes from.

3) You have the right build, you learned how to use it, but you forget about the content's mechanics, so you focus on DPS and forget to dodge and clear out of the worse damage, so you're constantly dead. This is where some of the most toxic people stand, by the way. They practiced at golem until they could pull off the benchmark numbers and now they think they're good. Too bad, unlike the golem, actual bosses fight back. And these guys are just constantly dead, and blaming others for their failures most of the time.

These are pretty much the 3 categories for people that usually will be underperforming in group content.If you want a number, my personal benchmark for seeing if a group will succeed or fail in T4 Fractals, is for the DPS guys consistently having at least 10k DPS after a couple encounters. Anything above that will usually mean a smooth run, below that it gets complicated. The supports are a bit more complicated to judge, but if the other 3 are managing that line without deaths, and if you consistently see everyone with buffs after fights, it means that the Supports are doing at least a decent job (otherwise people would be lacking buffs and heals to sustain a good damage output).

@mauried.5608 said:Can someone please provide for all classes and builds , a list of what constitutes a player who is "performing", dps wise, as measured on the needed dps meters?You may also wish to include in the list a table of latency and ping times for players unfortunate enuf to live a long distance from the servers.

It's no one's fault that you're lagging, but if you're lagging so bad that you can't do damage, then maybe don't? My internet is crappy, if i start dowloading something i'll go to 400ms easily, if not more. When i'm like that i do open world stuff, or nothing at all. Just because you live far from the servers or have a bad connection it isn't really fair to expect others to be disadvantaged on your behalf.Aside from that, i've explained what my personal values are for underperforming.

And i'll add, that one can be doing 5k DPS in T4 Fractals has a DPSer, but as long as the overal group performance is not hindered massively, i'll gladly carry them as opposed to having to stop for 2-5 minutes and fill that slot again from LFG. But i will tell them at the end that they should improve their build, and that their performance was sub-par. Then they take it as friendly advice or as toxic criticism. My part is done, and if they start lashing out i'll just block their ass. My investment towards strangers starts and ends with that run. I've had people that i've encountered repeatedly in Fractals, and eventually befriended, but for the most part, my involvement and concern with those people lasts for as long as the fractal run does.After the fractal run ends you can play yourself to rage-quitting with the crappiest build in the world. But as long as your actions influence me directly, i expect you to have the same consideration as i have with not hindering other people's enjoyment.

[Sarpan.9074]

The very funny and ironic thing is that as a result of this thread I installed a DPS meter out of curiosity. It was mainly to see how I stacked up against others in meta events and bounties, which are pretty much the only I'm in a group.

The result was depressing. My contribution was near the bottom in all cases. As a result, I'm looking at my build and "rotation" and other aspects of my gameplay.

In short, the meter is helping me become a better player. YMMV.

[Catchyfx.5768]

I don't kick Ppl. But sometimes (chill groups T4) you're stuck cuz your parties dont do much dmg. There Are few bosses where you need Kill things Fast.( This happend 3x max) i enjoy thé build diversity.

[Feanor.2358]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Samnang.1879 said:

@Cynn.1659 said:

@"mauried.5608" said:You keep talking about underperforming players.Can you explain in an objective way such that its understandable by all , what an underperforming player is ?

full berserker ele doing 5k dps, is beyond underperforming, you can get more dps by just casting lava fonts off cd and spamming staff 1is that simple enough?

nah ure being toxic! i wanna play the way i want... not do any dps and expect ppl to be nice to me while being lazy.

I wouldn't call them lazy. But ultimately it doesn't really matter why they are under-performing. As this thread demonstrates, there absolutely is the expectation that because this is a game, players should be able to play it their way. Players who feel this way are invariably affronted if you mention their performance. It merely confirms their view of elitism.

On the other hand, players on the other side of aisle take a different view of the situation. They resent players who don't "pull their weight" and, by the time a decision must be made regarding whether or not to reevaluate the group composition, being met with righteous indignation from the "play it your way" types is all it takes for that resentment to boil over.

I naively believed that simply being polite and putting other players first could resolve this conflict. I was wrong. So, does anyone else have any ideas or is this just irreconcilable? Best advice in that case: Make your expectations clear and never participate in organized group content with the other side?

The problem ultimately is the different expectations. It's not that I resent the "play your way". If you come with an off-meta build, but you do pull your weight - cool, kudos to you for being creative. However, most often "play your way" is really used for "build and execution shouldn't matter". Now, that's an expectation I can't agree with and I will not accept it. Simply because it isn't true. I've seen the same content done both ways and they definitely do matter.

And there's the next misconception thrown about - you should accept anything if you can still clear the content with it. No, I shouldn't. And not just because it often ends up being a huge waste of time. Ultimately, it is my decision to accept or not other players in my party, and nobody can force or oblige me otherwise. Because that's my free time, and I get to decide how to spend it. You wanna play with me? Cool. Provided you're good enough. he measure is subjective, but so is the decision. There's no universal answer, there's no recipe what to be so that you'd be universally accepted. Being skilled helps, being nice also helps, being both will get you quite far. But even then you'd find some players who dislike you and refuse to play with you for some reason. It's just a fact of life and the best solution is to accept it and not fret about it.

Part of that is indeed to make it clear for yourself what you expect of your group experience and seek groups with similar expectations. You want relaxed play and you don't mind spending more time? Cool. Seek groups like this, or create one yourself. You want a fast and smooth clear? Cool, join a meta party or create one yourself. Come to think of it, part of the issue might be coming from players who simply don't know the other side of the coin. Imagine you're used to playing in the relaxed, no-requirement groups and you're doing pretty well. For the environment you play in. I can imagine players thinking themselves good enough to play in the meta groups, not accounting for the differences in the environment. I know for a fact it took me quite some time to adjust from one to the other.

[kharmin.7683]

@"Sarpan.9074" said:The very funny and ironic thing is that as a result of this thread I installed a DPS meter out of curiosity. It was mainly to see how I stacked up against others in meta events and bounties, which are pretty much the only I'm in a group.

The result was depressing. My contribution was near the bottom in all cases. As a result, I'm looking at my build and "rotation" and other aspects of my gameplay.

In short, the meter is helping me become a better player. YMMV.

I think that many who are against meters would probably accept them if they only showed results to the individual player to help them better understand and re-tool their builds -- like you mentioned. My understanding is that those opposed don't want the results publicly shared with other DPS users (or at least not without some kind of Opt-out ability)

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@"Sarpan.9074" said:The very funny and ironic thing is that as a result of this thread I installed a DPS meter out of curiosity. It was mainly to see how I stacked up against others in meta events and bounties, which are pretty much the only I'm in a group.

The result was depressing. My contribution was near the bottom in all cases. As a result, I'm looking at my build and "rotation" and other aspects of my gameplay.

In short, the meter is helping me become a better player. YMMV.

I think that many who are against meters would probably accept them if they only showed results to the individual player to help them better understand and re-tool their builds -- like you mentioned. My understanding is that those opposed don't want the results publicly shared with other DPS users (or at least not without some kind of Opt-out ability)

There is an Opt-out it’s called not grouping with players using Meters, consent is given as soon as a player joins a group since all Combat data is public data and is not owned by any single player.

[kharmin.7683]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

There is an Opt-out it’s called not grouping with players using Meters, consent is given as soon as a player joins a group since all Combat data is public data and is not owned by any single player.

Very true. I was only trying to expand upon the previous poster's comments. I don't have a dog in this race -- I don't play in the arenas where DPS meters are so prevalent.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

People who don't use damage meters come in different flavors.

a: Some don't care one way or the other about them.b: Some don't care for people who share/use the information and will avoid people who use or are likely to be using meters.c: Others don't care for people who share/use the information but do choose to put themselves in situations where people are likely to be using meters.

People who use meters likewise come in different flavors.

d: Many of them want the people they group with to: accept the accepted builds; know the content; know the accepted tactics; and practice efficient methods so they can execute the accepted tactics efficiently.e: Others use meters only to evaluate their own performance.f: Others only refer to them with regard to other group members in statics, where common methods are accepted and expected behavior.g: Still others use them indiscriminately, throwing the data around even in groups where the expectation was that the meta/efficiency approach was not being enforced.

So, some of those groups include players who insert themselves into groups where their expectations are not wanted.

• This includes meter fans (g) who join no-requirement groups expecting everyone in that group to want their requirements. These people are likely to use the meter as a blunt instrument. This is likely because they don't care about what the other people in that group want.
• The other problem comes from meter foes © who join groups expecting their performance level -- no matter how good or poor it is in comparison -- to be accepted without question.

Members of both of those groups are likely to have justifications for their behavior.

• The g justification is likely going to be an assumption that everyone should think as they do, and their belief is that the methods practiced by the D group are paramount, and ought to be followed by everyone. This group is more likely to sling whatever accusations are current, largely because their base expectations allow no room for others to believe/behave differently.
• The c justification is likely going to be an assumption that everyone should think as they do, and their belief is that players should accept all other players regardless. This group is more likely to make comments like "toxic" and "elitist" because their base expectations allow no room for others to believe/behave differently.

G's and c's will tend to differ, even though their beliefs are intolerant of conflicting beliefs. G's will tend not to think of others, while c's will claim to be thinking of others because their "way" would open up group participation to more players. The problem with the g approach should be self-evident. The problem with the c approach is harder for some, especially c's themselves, to see. It lies in the fact that the very act of enforcing "niceness" is forcing others into beliefs and actions they don't want to be in. Whether that is appropriate in real life social situations I'll leave to other forums, as that would be way off topic and against the rules. In a game setting, where the goal is for everyone to enjoy playing, no player should be required to sacrifice their own enjoyment so that others can have theirs. The only logical approach that allows everyone to have fun is for people with wildly different desires to group only with the like-minded. The people who aren't doing that include both die-hard fans and implacable foes of damage meters.

It's not the meter.

[Ayakaru.6583]

There are a few people

A

1. Non users who don’t want to put in effort, and will call meter users toxic when exposed.
2. Non users who play on experience, put in effort, and may or may not meet benchmark standards.
3. Non users who try their best without relying on DPS meters.

B

1. Users who believe perfection and benchmarks are the bare minimum acceptable. Often described as toxic.
2. Teamplayers who use the tool to see theur and their friends’ DPS. May sometimes inform your DPS is low, ir give you tips, all for the sake of improving the group as a whole.
3. Private meter users, people who simply measure their own capabilities.

1A and 1B are toxic, both sides. They have narrow fields of view, and will not accept a counter answer.2A ans 2B are neutral, they simply want to play the game, and get somewhat better. They will sometimes ask for, ir offer tips and guides for improvements.3A and 3B should not notice the other unless they delve into extremeties. They play for themselves, and are satisfied if the goals are reached, regardless of 5k, 10k, or 25k DPS.

2A through 3B will be neutral or happy with DSP meters, and use the tool as intended.1B will be toxic, and shoot down everyone, but people in this group already had this behavior before the DSP tools came out. Likewise, 1A people will shoot down any form of community improvement so that their low standards are met ingame. They complain about DSP meters now, as they complainef about the 5K AP berserker meta of a few years ago.

Neither 1A nor 1B people can be met and satisfied as their demands directly oppose the community wishes or social standards. These people are best left ignored, reported,or just left to their own devices. They have no interest in self or community improvements.

TL;DRThere’s a small community of DPS meter users and opposers that have no interest in either self improvement or community assesment. These people are best left ignored. They complained about other things like the 5K AP berserker meta, they complain about DPS meters now, and will complain about X which will replace the meters if banned.

its an issue of a few rotten apples in the community. The meter is just a meter, a tool.

[Sarpan.9074]

@kharmin.7683 said:I think that many who are against meters would probably accept them if they only showed results to the individual player to help them better understand and re-tool their builds -- like you mentioned. My understanding is that those opposed don't want the results publicly shared with other DPS users (or at least not without some kind of Opt-out ability)

The problem with that, in my case at least, is if I could not see others' stats, it would do me not good. I would have nothing to compare my stats with so that I could work to improve.

The deal is that DPS meters are a tool and as such are agnostic. They can be used for good or ill.

Jerks are gonna jerk whether they have this tool or not, but prohibiting it denies non-jerk players a tool that they can use productively.

[mauried.5608]

DPS meters only have value if the numbers they produce mean something to all the players in the group using them, and the meaning is the same for all the players.eg to do event XYZ, you MUST have a dps value above an agreed or publickly listed number for this event, and that number must be known before the event starts.Otherwise the number the meter produces is just a subjective guide across the range of dps each player is producing.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

Dps meter gives me motivation, a little race against other ppl If you Will. It makes me use 110% in fights. But i never told any1 any of these lines. "i was top dps" "your dps sucks" " lol some1 did under 10k dps" etc. I dont Even tell ppl that i use it.

[Voltekka.2375]

DPS meters are tools. People use any tool for good, for bad. Some will be toxic (they would be toxic, anyway, for whatever reason), others will use it for self improvement, others do not want dps meters cause they are lazy/cant be bothered to learn how to play their class half properly, and instead demand they be included in endgame stuff (T4, raids).Noone likes toxic people. Also, noone likes to carry people. The tool is not at fault, obviously.

[EdgarMTanaka.7291]

If not DPS it's AP or other stuff.I have used DPS meters to make my own builds and nothing more. I have also been that one to say that DPS meters should be an banable offence but... As many other have said, bad apples are still bad apples. Instead be happy that you don't have to party with those morons again.

[Soul.1378]

Queensdale champ farm is becoming way too toxic! We must do something about it quick!!-nerf champs-Fractals and Raids are becoming too toxic because of DPS meters!-it's totally allowed-

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@"Soul.1378" said:Queensdale champ farm is becoming way too toxic! We must do something about it quick!!-nerf champs-Fractals and Raids are becoming too toxic because of DPS meters!-it's totally allowed-

The fighting in map chat over Queensdale champions was around a long time before ANet changed the champions to veterans. There was no "quick" about it.

Actual abusive behavior, such as the heated arguments that were clearly observable in Queensdale, is no more allowed in raids, fractals or dungeons than it was allowed in Queensdale. However, excluding someone is not in and of itself abusive. It may feel that way, but that's thwarted expectation talking.

ANet is unlikely to act against meters based on the belief of some people that exclusion came into existence or got worse due to meters. The assertion that exclusion occurs because of meters is not correct. Meters have been available for a small fraction of the game's life, and complaints about exclusion (and associated abusive behavior) appeared very shortly after launch.

[Draco.9480]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! i've to know who leeches and who carries. i've to know how much i do. if you think only mechanics matter then you shouldn't play. dps is a big deal to change the mechanics.

[Pimpology.6234]

@infrequentia.3465 said:all the dps meter showed was that 1 person wasn't pulling their weight.

the elitism was always there.

dps meters are a good way to see where you are doing bad so you can improve.bad apples will always be bad apples with or withouth the meters

and dps will always matter.

some1 doing 1-5k dps is bad unless its a full supporting playerKnowing your own dps is good, but that's what the golems are for. To practice and get your rotations down. DPS meters are currently being used for others to spy on you and the outcome is usually a negative experience for many and ruins the GW2 communties positive vibe. dps meters should not show what other people are doing. If they are, these types of meters should be banned.

One way to solve this is a kind of raid achievement like the pvp thing. Much like the bronze /silver / gold / platinum ranking you can choose to display or not. (plus its ingame).Have it character bound and @ the golems if you reach certain DPS thresholds you achieve a certain rank. Then others will know your potential DPS if you choose to display it. If you don't display or haven't done it, people will know you're not serious about raids or are just starting out. (to encourage people to do this bonus raid tokens/rewards could be given for reaching different tiers/ranks) Plus this display feature can only be used in raids and won't interfere with fractals. (Or something along these lines) or just build your own in game dps meter solely for raids if that's simpler and ban anyone using these 3rd party dps meter spyware. It's really hurting the community.