Why is this even possible?

[bigo.9037]

4 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

 

Forced dismount weirdness... first time... didn't know... lesson learned.

I don't think I have problems with that build either as long as I'm not CC'd and temporarily naked from forced dismount.  I mean between today and that other day, this guy probably tried to burst me at least half a dozen times, but he never succeeded when I was on foot (even today when he thought he snuck up on me while I was capping the SE Sentry) and he had to run into his Keep every time.  The one time he got me was in the OP clip while I was on Warclaw trying not to waste time with him. 😕

Just for the record, I’m not accusing you of being a ranger hater and I actually think ranger needs sustain nerfs. I was simply trying to explain. Didn’t see the previous screen of his buffs sorry.

 

a bit surprised he didn’t have any bloodlust stacks tbh. But I’ll admit i didn’t realize there was this armor bug , so my bad.  

[DeceiverX.8361]

2 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Nah, the teleport hacking is in downstate.  A few players would teleport around like thieves while on their scourges clipping into the ground and walls and such.  

 

I guess if giving the benefit of the doubt what we've seen here in the topic could be lag like what happens with dolyaks sometimes-- that is, you hit them but shows out of range as they are not where they appear on screen.  

 

Not sure though.  

 

Not always.  Some brazen idiots do it while in combat.  Had a Rev doing it against my reaper constantly a few months ago, teleporting from QL to hylek camp as soon as he got low, then teleporting back to me after ooc. 

[LetoII.3782]

3 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

As long as they just run they'll stay desynced, when they do something (dismount, use a skill, catch on fire etc) the game updates.

If you keep going after you've visibly desynched (when everyone else appears to just stand still) you'll end up disconnected. The game will only let you blink so far between updates..

I play from some terrible connections, sometimes.

 

As to the warclaw ghost, I'm willing to bet it has something to do with leaving wvw while on your mount. Warclaw has different properties in pve and a dev forgot to include a command to erase the wvw warclaw when it spawns you with pve warclaw.. Just a theory, but it'd explain why we never see untargetable ghosts on foot.

[Bear.9568]

On 8/3/2021 at 12:36 PM, MrForz.1953 said:

 

It's some clownish thing he says at almost every post as if trying very hard to make a meme out of it.

 

You follow me.... aw.

 

Buff Thief

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

7 hours ago, Andy.5981 said:

So and correct me if I am wrong with what I'm taking away from all of this.

You dont have a problem that he was able to take you off your mount, his build or his damage output.

You now realise that this is a mount/player dismounting issue, which theoretically could be carried out by any class if it had sufficent damage/burst.

You've also from your encounters with him learned and adapted your play?

 

Pretty much.  Personally, I don't have a problem with the "Memebeast" build and its damage.  It has counterplay and in my opinion isn't as bad as true one-shots from stealth that used to be more common.  I'm pretty confident I'd beat this person 1v1 if he didn't bail into his Keep/NPCs whenever he got low.  That's not a brag.  His build isn't a dueling build, but a pretty degenerate gank build designed to do one thing and one thing only: instagib the unprepared, whether that's due to lack of awareness, being new, or unwittingly putting themself in danger by remaining on an injured Warclaw.

 

I don't have a problem with being forcibly dismounted either.  But I do think the forced dismount needs attention because it both CCs and delays application of player armor stats.  This makes it too easy for anyone running anything close to a Memebeast build to global people from their mounts.  It's an unhealthy interaction and has no place in the game, IMO.  Now that I know it's possible to stunbreak the moment the dismount animation begins (even while your character is airborne), I think the only change needed is applying player armor stats the moment the dismount animation begins (since apparently that isn't currently the case).

[Dawdler.8521]

5 hours ago, LetoII.3782 said:

If you keep going after you've visibly desynched (when everyone else appears to just stand still) you'll end up disconnected. The game will only let you blink so far between updates..

I play from some terrible connections, sometimes.

 

As to the warclaw ghost, I'm willing to bet it has something to do with leaving wvw while on your mount. Warclaw has different properties in pve and a dev forgot to include a command to erase the wvw warclaw when it spawns you with pve warclaw.. Just a theory, but it'd explain why we never see untargetable ghosts on foot.

Not that kind of desync. 

 

You will see single players for example stuck in place on a mount and they are desynced, because others will see the same desync. This doesnt disconnect you or anyone. Nothing to do with them leaving. Its the server not reporting their position properly to other clients, they are just elsewhere. The glider is the same (you can see people running on the ground when they are actually flying above) and Anet has never fixed it either. So its not the warclaw itself at fault, your ideas there are wrong.

 

Oh yes we get untargettable ghosts on foot, you never seen a downed you couldnt stomp or heal, lol? Been in the game since launch. Same as the warclaw, same the glider, same as the dollies - they are not there, they are actually elsewhere.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[avey.4201]

On 8/4/2021 at 5:25 PM, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

 

Exactly.  I think this is bordering on being an exploit.  The base armor bug during forced dismount creates a situation where something like Ranger's RF burst is uniquely situated to exploit the bug by dealing huge damage at millisecond intervals, over the course of the RF channel.  That is, it's pretty much guaranteed to hit during the small window when your character is naked stat-wise.  It's patently unhealthy, even if it isn't common.  I don't think anyone who plays the game seriously thinks this should be a thing.

 

Punishing us with a CC for allowing our Warclaw to die under us is one thing.  But briefly removing our armor as well is another thing.  The solution is to fix the armor bug if possible.  No changes to Ranger.

It's not a ranger bug, but mount issue, certain wvw servers have groups who abuse it heavily.

[Gorem.8104]

On 8/3/2021 at 4:15 PM, anduriell.6280 said:

You have many options as other has pointed out. 

We can not know that because you cropped the skills bar and the HP, you realize that. What about you share the full video. 

 

But then if the ranger switches to GS lose all the range and need to reach you into melee.  And for 10 seconds it can not go back to pewpew. That's core game mechanics. 

 

Well again, it would be easier if you included all the information in the  video  instead intentionally cropping that information out. If you are looking for help you should know better than to provide a cropped video with limited information. And the combat log always help.

 

Immob druids are a meme and pretty bad in most situations. I don't understand what is the fixation in NA about that build. In EU nobody uses it. 

That ranger was also a good one you said so yourself when you came back and could not pin that ranger down. Yes the build is a degeneracy, souldbeast should have been built differently so it would not depend into 2 skills and apply a better balanced burst damage but well Anet has stated that is intentional. Gunflame berserker does the same amount of damage but in literally one shot and unblockable. And then with GS have a superior mobility. So literally the same build as the pewpew which makes you think it is clearly a game design. 

 

Well in your main OP you did not ask "How can avoid/survive this" but "How is it possible a ranger has defeated me". 

So you got the usuals jumping in with more ranger hate because they don't like pewpew. 

 

 

 

Ok now I am really curious about this Gunflame build you mentioned, the one I found is outdated

[Andy.5981]

13 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

 

Pretty much.  Personally, I don't have a problem with the "Memebeast" build and its damage.  It has counterplay and in my opinion isn't as bad as true one-shots from stealth that used to be more common.  I'm pretty confident I'd beat this person 1v1 if he didn't bail into his Keep/NPCs whenever he got low.  That's not a brag.  His build isn't a dueling build, but a pretty degenerate gank build designed to do one thing and one thing only: instagib the unprepared, whether that's due to lack of awareness, being new, or unwittingly putting themself in danger by remaining on an injured Warclaw.

 

I don't have a problem with being forcibly dismounted either.  But I do think the forced dismount needs attention because it both CCs and delays application of player armor stats.  This makes it too easy for anyone running anything close to a Memebeast build to global people from their mounts.  It's an unhealthy interaction and has no place in the game, IMO.  Now that I know it's possible to stunbreak the moment the dismount animation begins (even while your character is airborne), I think the only change needed is applying player armor stats the moment the dismount animation begins (since apparently that isn't currently the case).

Thank you for your considered reply. I think you hit the nail on the head with it. The build is built for one thing and one thing only and cannot withstand any concerted attack on it, hence the "run away" approach whenever it get under any kind of pressure.

The mount issue is something that Anet really do need to look at. The problem is how do you balance the fact that one player has just unloaded a ton of skills into a mount that has acted as a health shield and now has skills on cooldown V the player who has been dismounted and is now full health with full skills on no cooldown?

I know there should be a risk to dismounting a player, which normally is their skill level v yours but I just cannot see how Anet could balance the encounter.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Andy.5981

[Dawdler.8521]

53 minutes ago, Andy.5981 said:

The mount issue is something that Anet really do need to look at. The problem is how do you balance the fact that one player has just unloaded a ton of skills into a mount that has acted as a health shield and now has skills on cooldown V the player who has been dismounted and is now full health with full skills on no cooldown?

Dont run alone, thats how you balance it.

 

But really I dont understand why this keep being argued as something bad or broken when people been bawling their eyes out over mounts being "OP" for years. Its like... so what? Its a travelling tool. Why are you mounted in a danger zone? And if you are mounted, accept the kitten pros and cons. Yeah you can dodge. You can also get kitten roflstomped because getting thrown off a mount aint exactly a fun experience in RL either. 

 

Its the same "trick" with condi because its so easy to predict the dismount and you can easily stun them. Which ignore the armor anyway.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

1 hour ago, Andy.5981 said:

The mount issue is something that Anet really do need to look at. The problem is how do you balance the fact that one player has just unloaded a ton of skills into a mount that has acted as a health shield and now has skills on cooldown V the player who has been dismounted and is now full health with full skills on no cooldown?

I know there should be a risk to dismounting a player, which normally is their skill level v yours but I just cannot see how Anet could balance the encounter.

 

The dismounted player does usually have to burn a stun break and evade if they want to avoid any follow up.  So while the dismounting player has spent some offensive cooldowns, they do have the defensive advantage.

 

In the case of Soulbeast, for example, if the RF burst doesn't down the target outright (where have we seen that before? 😅), they have the standard GS3 + SA + Maul + WI + GS5 + Maul follow up burst to use against a target who is presumably down a stun break and evade if they're still alive.

 

Also, as the one initiating the fight, it behooves the dismounting player to know what they're doing.

 

EDIT: In short, forced dismounts are balanced by the dismounter spending some offensives while the dismounted has to spend some important defensives right at the start of the fight.  And since I think most would prefer there be an actual fight, let's maybe do something about that base armor bug so the dismounted player isn't K.O.'d before the bell even rings?

Edited August 6, 2021 by Twilight Tempest.7584

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

17 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

 

Ok now I am really curious about this Gunflame build you mentioned, the one I found is outdated

Something like this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKwAQdflZwsYTMKWJO+KatLA-zVIYRU/XItmABHCVUA2OL6vgB-w

But instead of blowing 2 utilities you blow 5 CDs for half the damage. And since Gunflame is single shot it'll just knock them off the mount, and can be dodged entirely. Volley should kill them afterwards though. So 7 CDs to do the same thing with no sustain versus 2-3 CDs with sustain still available.

Signet Gunflame is a poor man's Sic'em Sniper. It can do it, it just has to blow twice the cooldowns and is more susceptible to blinds and dodges.

[Gorem.8104]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Something like this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKwAQdflZwsYTMKWJO+KatLA-zVIYRU/XItmABHCVUA2OL6vgB-w

But instead of blowing 2 utilities you blow 5 CDs for half the damage. And since Gunflame is single shot it'll just knock them off the mount, and can be dodged entirely. Volley should kill them afterwards though. So 7 CDs to do the same thing with no sustain versus 2-3 CDs with sustain still available.

Signet Gunflame is a poor man's Sic'em Sniper. It can do it, it just has to blow twice the cooldowns and is more susceptible to blinds and dodges.

 

Oh, imagine roaming without dolyak stance and being able to 100% block, but still at least you can GS run a little bit just with no way to save yourself most of the time. 

 

Yeah so, Still gonna play my ranger even though I want to main warrior, just wish it didn't feel weak in comparison, buff warrior 😛 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

20 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

 

Oh, imagine roaming without dolyak stance and being able to 100% block, but still at least you can GS run a little bit just with no way to save yourself most of the time. 

 

Yeah so, Still gonna play my ranger even though I want to main warrior, just wish it didn't feel weak in comparison, buff warrior 😛 

Pretty much. Some people bring up the signet memeflame build as a means to deflect away from sic'em rapid fire, but as I said it is a poor man's substitute.

 

Warrior needs some buffs ngl.

[ArchonWing.9480]

And no matter what, you're missing 300 range. And you're slow.

 

Probably better to compare it against trapper rune DH or something.

Edited August 6, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

 

13 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Dont run alone, thats how you balance it.

 

Solo roaming not allowed?

 

13 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

But really I dont understand why this keep being argued as something bad or broken when people been bawling their eyes out over mounts being "OP" for years. Its like... so what? Its a travelling tool. Why are you mounted in a danger zone? And if you are mounted, accept the kitten pros and cons. Yeah you can dodge. You can also get kitten roflstomped because getting thrown off a mount aint exactly a fun experience in RL either. 

 

Getting thrown off a mount IRL doesn't strip you of all protective gear.  Imagine if getting thrown off a horse, bike, or motorcycle means your helmet automatically gets removed as well.  That's what's happening with Warclaw forced dismount.

 

13 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Its the same "trick" with condi because its so easy to predict the dismount and you can easily stun them. Which ignore the armor anyway.

 

 

Except theoretically condi is DOT with counterplay in the form of cleanse.  You're not going to get globaled by a condi bomb in a fraction of a second just because condis ignore armor.  Power is different, as we saw.

 

Bottom line, guys: Do we want any build (not just Memebeast) to be able to exploit a forced dismount bug to instagib people off their mounts?  Is that a healthy interaction?  Should it be a thing?

[Celsith.2753]

2 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

 

 

 

Bottom line, guys: Do we want any build (not just Memebeast) to be able to exploit a forced dismount bug to instagib people off their mounts?  Is that a healthy interaction?  Should it be a thing?

I'd rather they fix the bug rather  than balance classes around it. In the meantime, make the decision to dismount before it's forced, or use the dodges wisely.

[Dawdler.8521]

3 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Except theoretically condi is DOT with counterplay in the form of cleanse.  You're not going to get globaled by a condi bomb in a fraction of a second just because condis ignore armor.  Power is different, as we saw.

Have you tried to cleanse condis on a warclaw? Of course power is different. Its always different. Its always superior. Still its similar if you can stun them long enough.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

6 hours ago, Celsith.2753 said:

I'd rather they fix the bug rather  than balance classes around it. In the meantime, make the decision to dismount before it's forced, or use the dodges wisely.

 

Same.  If it sounded like I was suggesting balancing builds around the bug, that's not what I meant.

 

5 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Have you tried to cleanse condis on a warclaw? Of course power is different. Its always different. Its always superior. Still its similar if you can stun them long enough.

 

I guess I'm not following.  I thought you were just making the point that condis ignore armor, similar to how damage during forced dismount does (due to the bug).

[HARDOFREADING.7298]

 This post is important and needs to be seen by everyone. Easymode domination of this game by Long Bow isn't helping the appeal of WvW for newer players. Outrageous

[Dawdler.8521]

On 8/7/2021 at 11:40 AM, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

I guess I'm not following.  I thought you were just making the point that condis ignore armor, similar to how damage during forced dismount does (due to the bug).

2 weeks later since the other post decided this was worth digging up, my point was mainly that everybody, including condi, can do this to a mounted player. Because being on a mount and taking damage no matter the source or the intensity is dangerous. The "stat bug" is in fact irrelevant. Tbh I still think that without the "bug", the player would have died anyway in that burst.

[HARDOFREADING.7298]

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

2 weeks later since the other post decided this was worth digging up, my point was mainly that everybody, including condi, can do this to a mounted player. Because being on a mount and taking damage no matter the source or the intensity is dangerous. The "stat bug" is in fact irrelevant. Tbh I still think that without the "bug", the player would have died anyway in that burst.

   Look, you stating something doesn't make it accurate or even true.  The simple fact is the massive range advantage of long bow builds and the comical levels of sustain of rangers have done a tremendous amount of damage fundamentally to wvw design as a whole.

   When I'm in zerg vs zerg fights.... 3/4 of my combat log is Rapid Fire and Barrage.  Answer these questions if you can....and understand, this is not a debate about how to counter something.

1. Why is Long bow allowed to reach a consistent (documented)1750+ range ?

2. How does Rifle have less range than Long Bow?  ( Rifle auto attack range is hard capped at 1200 and does no where near as much damage as Long Range Shot which has a 1750 range) To even have access to virtually all 1500 range attacks as rifle you have to kneel for some reason.

3. Why does Barrage not require Line of Sight?

4. WHY DO RANGER HARPOON GUN SKILLS HAVE 1500 range and EVERY OTHER classes Harpoon gun's skills are capped at 1200?  rofl It's the exact same weapon...LoL  Even under water you can't fight a Ranger on even terms....They're allowed a massive advantage. So unfair. So ridiculous. Deliberate.

 Listen I can go on and on and on and pose to you a hundred balance questions and the response is always the same....Learn to Play...You mad Bro and n00b. None of which address the issue at hand. The ridiculous ease with which ranger has been allowed to dominate wvw is out of control.

  As a thief for 8 years....I see 50 rangers running the exact same build for every Dead Eye I see now. This says it all.

[Dawdler.8521]

53 minutes ago, HARDOFREADING.7298 said:

   Look, you stating something doesn't make it accurate or even true.  The simple fact is the massive range advantage of long bow builds and the comical levels of sustain of rangers have done a tremendous amount of damage fundamentally to wvw design as a whole.

   When I'm in zerg vs zerg fights.... 3/4 of my combat log is Rapid Fire and Barrage.  Answer these questions if you can....and understand, this is not a debate about how to counter something.

1. Why is Long bow allowed to reach a consistent (documented)1750+ range ?

2. How does Rifle have less range than Long Bow?  ( Rifle auto attack range is hard capped at 1200 and does no where near as much damage as Long Range Shot which has a 1750 range) To even have access to virtually all 1500 range attacks as rifle you have to kneel for some reason.

3. Why does Barrage not require Line of Sight?

4. WHY DO RANGER HARPOON GUN SKILLS HAVE 1500 range and EVERY OTHER classes Harpoon gun's skills are capped at 1200?  rofl It's the exact same weapon...LoL  Even under water you can't fight a Ranger on even terms....They're allowed a massive advantage. So unfair. So ridiculous. Deliberate.

 Listen I can go on and on and on and pose to you a hundred balance questions and the response is always the same....Learn to Play...You mad Bro and n00b. None of which address the issue at hand. The ridiculous ease with which ranger has been allowed to dominate wvw is out of control.

  As a thief for 8 years....I see 50 rangers running the exact same build for every Dead Eye I see now. This says it all.

So what you are saying is... everything about the longbow is OP, but the "stat bug" on the warclaw is irrelevant to the issues described. Because I mean, if the "bug" was fixed it changes nothing of that? No points I disagree with even if I have no problems with them because I dont play thief, I play a class that can counter them.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[HARDOFREADING.7298]

lol Uh huh...You didnt answer a single question I asked

 EXPLAIN TO ME WHY WATER COMBAT SKILLS ARE VIRTUALLY THE SAME ALL THE WAY ACROSS THE BOARD FOR EVERY CLASS.....but ranger is allowed 300 extra range compared to every other class bar none. This is deliberate.

You can deny it all you want. It's stupid obvious to all of us what has been happening in wvw for the past 18+ months

[Zyreva.1078]

Imagine complaining about underwater balance while playing the by far most op underwater class. But as ranger i'll gladly trade 1,5k range for perma evade, superior mobility and still tons of dmg. Deal?