Banner Rework Confirmed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dadnir.5038]

9 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Be careful what you wish for you might get it.

True, personally I don't see this announcement as a good one. The warrior is losing the only niche were it's currently "competitive" with this change.

[Aeolus.3615]

Banners & Spirits  revamp, this is actually very very good.

Removing the 10 ally  affected skills on pve will be interesting, specially for EoD since Anet stated there will be difficulty settings in some content.

 

Hummm summer balance patch would be interesting to have decent balance towards trade offs the more u do in several aspects of the build the worse u do in others, atm some builds have  only upsides others have huge trade offs theres a huge gap in performance or what some classes do.

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Gorem.8104]

I'm gonna laugh so hard when they somehow make everything worse for Warriors like they always do. Banner rework? Watch them remove banners entirely instead of what we expecting and then we can finally stop being a bannerslave.. oh wait. 

 

I mean, if they actually do something good for Warriors for the first time in years? That will be a pleasant surprise for sure, but given their track record. 

[Gorem.8104]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

True, personally I don't see this announcement as a good one. The warrior is losing the only niche were it's currently "competitive" with this change.

Exactly, If they make Classes too similar like has plagued other mmo's to their detriment. What will Warriors bring? Why every bring a Warrior over a Firebrand? Banners at least allows Warriors to have a niche at all, remove that niche and... 

[Katary.7096]

7 hours ago, DKRathalos.9625 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910This is like uh.... I dunno how to feel about this. At one side I really happy they finally wants to rework banner and there is a hint of like class rework or something at summer but... on the other side I doubt they can do a good job.

They literally just butchered Fractal CM reward because they think reward need to be spread.

I don't think that "spreading rewards" is the goal behind that change. From fractals to raids to strike missions all of them will offer the opportunity to exchange currency& materials to get clovers, but only EoD strike missions will reward mystic coins. This makes much more sense if the intention is to incentivize/ strongarm (depening on how one feels about the change) players into EoD strikes as the primary farmable instanced PvE content and away from fotm. Fractals (not necessarily CMs) might still be relevant due to their liquid gold rewards, but then again EoD strike missions could have their own daily achievements loaded with gold.

 

As far as the banner topic is concerned: The stat buffs on banners probably won't stay (and neither will the unique effects on spirits), since the whole "bring the player, not the profession" thing won't work if there are any notable unique buffs. Potentially interesting is that warrior has 5 different banner skills (and ranger 6 spirits) which means that there is enough room for 5 different boons to get access to. Which might make either warrior or ranger one of the few options to buff both quickness and alacrity. Of course right now and especially considering "Ritualist" stats, bringing a condition-quickness hybrid firebrand and a condition-alacrity hybrid renegade seems way more valuable than a single quickness+alacrity support build, but those are probably getting nerfed sometime this year. I'm not sure if any of this is good news in the long run, but at least it won't get boring in the short term.

"Warrior players have been telling us for years that they’d like to be something other than a banner warrior in groups!" It's a shame none of us have been telling the devs for years that we would like to be more than a one-trick pony which can be outplayed by looking at the screen once every 5 seconds in competitive modes. Well, now we know.

[Myror.7521]

Okay letz be real here. This notes could bring 2 things and of course mean one big thing!

 

Bring things:

1. Warriors are more nerfed so dont see any play in any game Mode any more.

 

2. Warrior get banners nerfed but to compensate the lost of self stat boost they remove the 10 man targed traitline skill and give US something Else (could be a traitskill that boost our condition and Power damage somehow)/(best one would be precision and c damage i gues?)

 

The one obviosly mean thing:

Banners are not stat boost but boon share mostly this means you lost a boost to : Power,  critical Hit change, critical strike increase and condition damage stats. All in all this would be another hard nerf to every Single Power build. So after those reworkes we will maybe see a c damage only meta incoming .... yays i gues?

[Mesket.5728]

Idk man,... it is the same people that designed bladeswam to begin with. Until i see it in action i wouldnt keep my hopes high

Edited February 12, 2022 by Mesket.5728

[DemonCrypto.6792]

32 minutes ago, Mesket.5728 said:

Idk man,... it is the same people that designed bladeswam to begin with. Until i see it in action i wouldnt keep my hopes high

Yes but this time they don't have the weebs pushing the design, only  main war  the only theme here is "make it better" so with luck we're not getting kitten by "design over gameplay" stick they use for bladesworn.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

9 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

GM, go bigger. Stop being timid. Lan is in a 0 fcks to give mode at the moment and he is taking the rest of you along for the ride.

I share the same enthusiasm tbh. It would be amazing for a theorycrafter to get a whole new set of skills to utilize in all warrior specs.

 

I just don't feel like removing the raw stats just cause as people say. it's our niche. Also I don't envy raw boons support. Raw boon supports are susceptible to corrupts and strips and warrior doesn't need yet another weakness, so half boons half stats would work.

 

Ideally the double standards trait simply becomes a (with my banner idea), gain swiftness on banner use (1st activation), banner discarding (when you wait for it to recharge), maintain the stat bonus for a few seconds after you use the second active (like 5 seconds to overlap with the boons for a bit) and that's about it. 

 

If the banners do become mobile, I'd rethink the double stats on-self idea since they are on us all the time. Now I try to balance my idea to not be OP enough and avoid a possible banner gutting despite a rework. Not like they will use my or anyone's ideas, they will get pieces here and there put their own stuff and we'll see what they come up with..

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Man you guys are being some Debby Downers.

They are moving to 5 man  support skills. With the player mattering more than the build for the summer balance.

This means that certain meta classes that do too much are going to get paired down.

This may mean that the stats go away, maybe not. But if they did that they'd probably have to also get rid of the group stat traits as well. That new stat set makes me think that there may be some 100% crit chance effects coming down the line. Arms is due for a rework and I can see some big crit chance numbers coming out of an Arms rework.

Assuming that the stats are not going anywhere though. I can see banners becoming more like an AoE Signet than a facet.

Passive effects would be the current boring stats around the warrior.
Active effect would aoe Boons and condis, instant cast, with ammo charges, but once all charges are spent you no longer get the passives.
Strength Active: Burn foes for 2 stacks for 3s, grant 5 stacks of might for 5s.
Discipline Active: Grant Fury and Alacrity for 5s. Inflict weakness for 3s on foes.
Tactics Active: Heal for allies for 2000, you are healed for half. Cleanse 3 conditions. Foes are poisoned for 2 stacks for 3s.
Defense Active: Grant Resistance, Resolution, and Protection for 3s. Foes gain 5 stacks of vulnerability for 3s and are blinded for 3s.
Battle Standard: Passive is the current boon pulse if that wasn't clear Active is one charge to rez/finish in a target area. 2s cast time.

A new banner trait could add barrier and/or quickness to the active effects.

Regardless, this is all coming along with a big balance patch, so don't think of the banner rework with the current meta in mind.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

I'm very glad to hear of the proposed rework!

 

One thing puzzles me, though...

They said (essentially):

1. Warriors don't want to be banner slaves

2. We're reworking banners (presumably to make them better)

 

But won't that make warriors just as much dependent on banners as before? Hopefully we'll be at least better supports than we are now, and maybe have a role in WvW and PvP. But we'll still be banner slaves.

 

I hope that whatever they do with banners is accompanied by a good look at shouts and warhorn skills/traits as well, as those are also key components to what warrior offers for support.

 

For instance, maybe get rid of "on my mark" and replace it with "shields up" (a gw1 throwback). Let it grant AoE protection and resolution for 4s. That would have obvious value in many forms of content.

 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Imo, as long as 1 banner becomes a stunbreak I don't rly care, since in competetive the idea of a banner support for warrior is already different to the idea of a shout warrior, or a strip SpB or a Phalanx Zerker etc. As long as there is no overlap to make skills better than others, the idea of alacrity and quickness roles can be rolled into Tactics and Discipline respectively.

 

Therefore, getting rid of the stats for raw boons, will only make the banners useless in PvE while giving nothing to competetive anyway. As long as classes like Guard can pump these boons endlessly, there will be no boon support warrior.

 

To put it into perspective, Strip Spellbreakers are devastating, but people prefer to stack Revs, Scourges and Guardians of all kinds in a zerg. Only 1 berserker may even exist due to the banner, let alone raw cleanse warriors...

 

So tldr, if they don't kitten it up, we may see the emergence of new support options centered around banners. I don't pve so no input there, but I couldn't care less.

[DKRathalos.9625]

7 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

As long as classes like Guard can pump these boons endlessly, there will be no boon support warrior.

Yeah this one! Guard especially Firebrand in this case can already cover like about Perma Fury, Perma Quickness and some Might (Staff 4 and mantra covers 17 might) +usually the rest of might covered by alacren or something. So combat wise 3 out of 4 important boon is covered (minus alac), other boon important yes for example swiftness can grants extra damage for warrior but that is traited, and FB staff 3 already give perma swiftness too.
General boon for DPS wise is already covered 80% by firebrand it's just the rest of 20% alac and rest of might covered by renegade.
Giving warrior boon support is pretty much pointless unless they nerf firebrand hard.

 

Also they said they want to move from 10 target to 5 target which indirectly buff Firebrand, there is reason why Firebrand is the choice for boon and healer Fractal 5 man content not druid.

 

Now if they want to give warrior boon support option which is obviously won't be as good as firebrand, it's same as killing banner no? because then banner won't be used, but if they want to give something "unique" again to banner the cycle repeat.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

15 minutes ago, DKRathalos.9625 said:

Yeah this one! Guard especially Firebrand in this case can already cover like about Perma Fury, Perma Quickness and some Might (Staff 4 and mantra covers 17 might) +usually the rest of might covered by alacren or something. So combat wise 3 out of 4 important boon is covered (minus alac), other boon important yes for example swiftness can grants extra damage for warrior but that is traited, and FB staff 3 already give perma swiftness too.
General boon for DPS wise is already covered 80% by firebrand it's just the rest of 20% alac and rest of might covered by renegade.
Giving warrior boon support is pretty much pointless unless they nerf firebrand hard.

 

Also they said they want to move from 10 target to 5 target which indirectly buff Firebrand, there is reason why Firebrand is the choice for boon and healer Fractal 5 man content not druid.

 

Now if they want to give warrior boon support option which is obviously won't be as good as firebrand, it's same as killing banner no? because then banner won't be used, but if they want to give something "unique" again to banner the cycle repeat.

That's why they need to find a middle ground option, where we can give both stats and boons, perhaps to a lesser extend. At least in competetive it will make wonders. These new Banners in PvE may still be the only option for warrior, unless if we see a buff to Shouts as someone mentioned, so you can have both builds or a mix of both types to cater to a situation.

[Fueki.4753]

I just hope banners will retain their unique effects in addition to what Arenanet has planned.

Without unique effects and only with generic boons, they will underperform in comparison to other profession, putting Warrior in an even worse spot.

[ugrakarma.9416]

15 hours ago, Kronos.2560 said:

The risk here is while yes banners go away and get reworked and now you are no longer a bannerslave. It might get reworked to something useless and now you can't even be a bannerslave and thus are unwanted until the next patch 6 months+ later. Crossing fingers the rework is something awesome and not just a last minute flip the banners to provide swiftness and 1 might every 5 seconds or something useless like that. 

or forced to play new spec, that i personally hate this holosmith copy.

[Obtena.7952]

I'm not so excited.  I speculate they are going to change trait to make banners 5 man and add deploying a banner will give the alacrity/quickness boons they are now defining as 'roles'. I anticipate that's actually going to lead to a nerf of the banners themselves. 

People don't like being bannerslaves? Anet just solidified that in the most definitive way. Not only are you a bannerslave, but because they are balancing roles around certain buffs ... they are expecting you to bring that in your instanced groups. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Knighthonor.4061]

Unpopular opinion,  but I want the old Banners mechanic back but with better skills on the banners.  We see how this can be effective mechanic when looking at the WvW banners. The OG Warrior banners just needed better skills. It was held back by Anet's limited creative freedom back then when the game first came out. We way beyond those game designs now. Nobody freaks out about the idea of a support Warrior, or a warrior with some magic here and there. 

Give the Warrior back those environmental weapon banners and have some good support skills on the heal banner skill and some good combat skills on the damage banners.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

42 minutes ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

Unpopular opinion,  but I want the old Banners mechanic back but with better skills on the banners.  We see how this can be effective mechanic when looking at the WvW banners. The OG Warrior banners just needed better skills. It was held back by Anet's limited creative freedom back then when the game first came out. We way beyond those game designs now. Nobody freaks out about the idea of a support Warrior, or a warrior with some magic here and there. 

Give the Warrior back those environmental weapon banners and have some good support skills on the heal banner skill and some good combat skills on the damage banners.

I'm of the same opinion.

[anbujackson.9564]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm not so excited.  I speculate they are going to change trait to make banners 5 man and add deploying a banner will give the alacrity/quickness boons they are now defining as 'roles'. I anticipate that's actually going to lead to a nerf of the banners themselves. 

People don't like being bannerslaves? Anet just solidified that in the most definitive way. Not only are you a bannerslave, but because they are balancing roles around certain buffs ... they are expecting you to bring that in your instanced groups. 

I agree. They want to step away from banners but in the end you still play them anyway or you wont have access to the boons. 

 

Well, I guess just time will tell how they balance the classes to fit into roles without some of them just being overperforming. 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Just now, anbujackson.9564 said:

I agree. They want to step away from banners but in the end you still play them anyway or you wont have access to the boons. 

 

Well, I guess just time will tell how they balance the classes to fit into roles without some of them just being overperforming. 

More like, why are they attempting to start giving out these "roles" to all classes instead of sharing the things that actually matter? Stab, healing, offense, stuff like that need to be examined per spec. Are they rly after "diversity" by making all professions do the same stuff with a different color? 

 

I don't look forward to that future. 

[Puck.3697]

18 hours ago, Kronos.2560 said:

The risk here is while yes banners go away and get reworked and now you are no longer a bannerslave. It might get reworked to something useless and now you can't even be a bannerslave and thus are unwanted until the next patch 6 months+ later. Crossing fingers the rework is something awesome and not just a last minute flip the banners to provide swiftness and 1 might every 5 seconds or something useless like that. 

Tbh imma say we have enough in the game to be negative about. The fact Anet have directly admitted however warriors aren't happy. Is a positive direction. 

Ontop of this 100% confirmation they intend to deal with the current balance problems and even make mechanical changes to utility and more in the summer is also a good thing. 

15 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

Lan Deathrider, it's not negativity tho, it is basically my knowledge of the team after i've dealt with them as a veteran since 2013

The problem here is going to be, the balance team changed in PoF and has again after icebrood saga as they announced, they doubled their balance team. 

The problem was when they made this move they were knee deep in cancelling another proffession and starting up a expansion development project which tied their hands to dealing with current problems quickly. 

I ain't going to defend anet, they have made bad moves several times. But given we know this is a different balancing team. The way EoD speccs are being handle and the fact they are for once not direct upgrades to core proffessions means that the direction has somewhat shifted. 

I would say let's see what they do in this significant balancing process upcoming in the summer and how the EoD speccs launch before we jump down the harp of screeching too much negativity. 

[Vancho.8750]

6 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Man you guys are being some Debby Downers.

They are moving to 5 man  support skills. With the player mattering more than the build for the summer balance.

This means that certain meta classes that do too much are going to get paired down.

This may mean that the stats go away, maybe not. But if they did that they'd probably have to also get rid of the group stat traits as well. That new stat set makes me think that there may be some 100% crit chance effects coming down the line. Arms is due for a rework and I can see some big crit chance numbers coming out of an Arms rework.

Assuming that the stats are not going anywhere though. I can see banners becoming more like an AoE Signet than a facet.

Passive effects would be the current boring stats around the warrior.
Active effect would aoe Boons and condis, instant cast, with ammo charges, but once all charges are spent you no longer get the passives.
Strength Active: Burn foes for 2 stacks for 3s, grant 5 stacks of might for 5s.
Discipline Active: Grant Fury and Alacrity for 5s. Inflict weakness for 3s on foes.
Tactics Active: Heal for allies for 2000, you are healed for half. Cleanse 3 conditions. Foes are poisoned for 2 stacks for 3s.
Defense Active: Grant Resistance, Resolution, and Protection for 3s. Foes gain 5 stacks of vulnerability for 3s and are blinded for 3s.
Battle Standard: Passive is the current boon pulse if that wasn't clear Active is one charge to rez/finish in a target area. 2s cast time.

A new banner trait could add barrier and/or quickness to the active effects.

Regardless, this is all coming along with a big balance patch, so don't think of the banner rework with the current meta in mind.

I have the right to be downer after several reworks on banners that just nerfed them and made them more annoying to use and the light field update , i just can't wait to see how they will kitten it up and exclude warrior from pve how they excluded it from pvp since warrior doesn't do anything that another profession does it better.
Almost forgot about the crit cap, it will be quite funny when they forget that you would not be able to crit cap when they change the banners or every build will be with fury signet lol.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Vancho.8750

[Broxxgar.6801]

I hope they listen all your advices @Lan Deathrider.5910 and @CalmTheStorm.2364. I just use one banner,  Battle Standard , the other are terrible. And don't try to find me on PvE.

[oscuro.9720]

2 hours ago, Broxxgar.6801 said:

I hope they listen all your advices @Lan Deathrider.5910 and @CalmTheStorm.2364. I just use one banner,  Battle Standard , the other are terrible. And don't try to find me on PvE.

I don’t think the change is going to be oriented towards banners in competitive modes. 

BUT, if depending on how they are changed, warrior may start to have viable group support builds in competitive with banners. I don’t think it’s the focus, but it may end up being an externality of the banner change, which would be cool. 

Either way, I’m much like you, and never pve. I don’t think we should be judging banner rework by whether or not they become viable in competitive. Imo it should be judged by PvE warriors, since they are the ones being impacted by it.

Edited February 13, 2022 by oscuro.9720