The "Features" added in End of Dragons are all badly done

[Boogiepop Void.6473]

4 new "features" were added in EoD: Skiffs, Fishing, Jade Bots, and Turtles. All of them are badly done.

1. Skiffs are unnecessary. The skimmer is superior for every purpose but fishing and fashion wars. They are hard to control, hard to get out due to the lack of keybinding (1 keybind for everything is not accessible, especially for action camera players), and have multiple systemic bad design issues, such as the awkwardness of needing to manually "Stop" to anchor (which often takes many tries to get to a sufficient stop for the game to allow it, assuming it doesn't randomly trap you in the boat due to being "too shallow") and enemies being able to attack you in the boat (both from shore and from the water under the boat). The "depth charge" ability does basically nothing (and is basically only even supposed to exist for the Leviathan event, but it's better to just get out and attack the leviathan any other way). Also there is no reason "fish sense" should be an ability; it should just be on at all times.
2. Fishing is just bad. It's too much RNG, on top of tons of conditions you need to go out of the game to know about (bait type, time of day, hole type, etc.). The ability of enemies to attack you on the skiff also messes it up some as you have to get off and deal with it. The fishing stack mechanic is horribly executed, resetting if you change maps or if you are off the skiff for too long (which can be you dealing with the aforementioned ability to be attacked) and discourages participation on the map (if you go to events you lose your stacks). Fishing power is hard to figure due to all the extra variables (just getting on the skiff changes it, party stacks) and the effect of it is also not clear in game. Many thing are just outright unclear, such as why there are so many bait types when only a few matter, or why most things don't change fishing power, making it seems like it's clogging the inventory for no reason (it clogs in general). It is also unrewarding outside collections (most mats you get don't sell for much, and all you can use them for is to make food to fish with). And because it's inventory based you have to have it on every character (although at least they have put fish vendors outside cantha so you aren't having to send every character there to stock up anymore).
3. Jade Bots are the most alt-unfriendly thing ever added to the game. By making it character bound rather than account bound, it creates a huge hassle. Characters who come to cantha without them have a huge problem working around the maps, and also due to the stat boosts provided by the higher cores, they are another thing people need and can kick-sort for in raiding or fractals. Research notes are also a pain to deal with, as it's confusing what is or is not salvageable for notes (again, only by using external sources can you figure out what is happening) and has created all kinds of weird trading post patterns. Research notes are just another needless currency to keep track of, and if they are to exist there needs to be MUCH better handling of what can and cannot be salvaged (ie why Halloween food but not lunar, wintersday, or dragon bash food?) and it needs to be obvious IN THE GAME. It's awkward to equip everyone since only jewelers can make things (and the costs for higher cores are quite exorbitant, so good luck equipping many characters with anything but level 1), involving tons of inventory swapping, and tons of inventory glut for the chips. The lack of workbenches to allow you to change things anywhere but cantha is also a major issue, requiring tons of needless map transitions. The cores should have been account wide and the chips should have been unlocks, not items.
4. Turtles are just a disappointment. They suffer from being lumped in with the other mounts, and also have weird side issues. You can't mount the COMBAT MOUNT in combat, making them hard to use when they might be good. They are blocked by general mount blocks in areas it would make sense to use them (like the frost citadel, which is a literal SIEGE). But most importantly, they are unfun and almost useless for the driver. Whenever you use them, you just have to spam "GET IN" in chat over and over, because you are actually unable to do much of anything without a gunner. Also, the way reloading works (by movement) combined with both the best places to use it right now (Aspenwood, DE) being full of tight spaces and the drifty movement, means the mount is actively hard to use both for the driver AND the gunner who has trouble aiming as the turtle frantically moves around. Also outside of those two areas (and a few spots in Drizzlewood) there is next to nothing in the game to do with the turtles, as other mounts simply do a better job (even the JACKAL which is the least used mount due to sand portals only being on a few maps, has more places it's useful). It is also a huge visual obstruction for other players (even semi transparent) and has odd things such as being the only mount that destroys carried packages (meaning if you mount it by accident you can flub events) and bugs (such as trying to slam, the one thing you can do as driver, and just hanging in mid air). It feels especially bad after the effort needed to unlock it, something that neither the Griffin nor the Skyscale did when you unlocked them. Many people find that the WARCLAW has more PVE utility then the turtle, despite being intentionally nerfed in non-WvW (which is another place the turtle would make sense to be usable). I have seen people telling players not to bother getting the turtle because there is no reason to go through the effort.

Basically none of these features landed, and certainly compared to both HoT and PoF features they are a huge letdown. These features all feel half baked, incomplete, ill considered, and badly designed, and none of them really fit into the game as a whole cleanly (Skiffs and fishing are basically separate from the rest of the game, Jade Bots are awkward and counter to the game encouraging many characters, and turtles just lack both purpose and polish).

Edited April 23, 2022 by Boogiepop Void.6473

[Ashgar.3024]

The game is already pretty feature-complete that's why.

I personally don't mind that the new features are optional.

Skiffs and fishing are just meant to complement each other, its just an extra thing to do if you care.

Turtle does exactly what it was advertised it would do.

Only place i agree they probably could had added more is the Jade Bot as its mostly forgetable. Who knows, maybe its planned for LWS6.

I'm honestly fine with Anet not reinventing the game every expansion after seeing a game i used to care about get completely destroyed system redesign after system redesign over the years.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Kozumi.5816]

EoD is 2/10 for me due to the OPs post and lack of rewards/goals.

[Ausar.9542]

this why they announced expansion 4 early. I am sure they knew this going in as well. 

[Labjax.2465]

Well said. I want to say they are unfinished or unpolished, but honestly, some of it is just strange design decisions. Like why make jade bots character based when most accomplishments in this game are account based unlocks. It doesn't even fit with the rest of the game. I don't understand.

Or like... why even have fishing power as a mechanic. Why is it needed? If the aim was to separate out rarity of fish you are going for, couldn't they have just based that on bait types alone and made the system way more simple? And what is the deal with games that turn fishing into a frantic button spam game. Am I to believe this is the same team that made mounts into unique ways of getting around, with their own physics and advantages, instead of the generic "increase movement speed" thing that mounts usually are in MMOs or did everybody that worked on that leave or get laid off. It's confusing. I don't expect the world and I don't expect them to be groundbreaking every time, but these features are... rough. I don't know how else to put it.

[Aodlop.1907]

The Jade's bot abilities are pretty neat. I like the idea of enhancing what was already there from previous expansions. It's certainly not enough to carry an expansion like PoF mounts, but it's nice.

 

The skiff & the turtle, on the other hand...Yeah, pretty underwhelming.

[Ashen.2907]

Does the stat boost from a jade bot apply in a raid?

 

Agree with you on all but one point. In my opinion the skimmer is superior to the skiff for fashion wars.

[Randulf.7614]

I like skiffs, they are great fun. Yes the skimmer is better, but the skiffs bring a social aspect and a more leisurely pace to things. I think of them as a more ambient feature. They also hopefully are laying the groundwork for things to come. The only thing I don’t like are the depth mines. They are the most pointless mastery line yet.

Fishing isn’t something I have an issue with and I enjoy it, although it could use streamlining. They’ve over thought it for sure, but it otherwise works.

Jade bots are fine, but they are a feature for the sake of a feature. Zip lines are good though and thematically it holds together.

Arborstone was the failure to learn from the sun spear sanctuary. It should have been part of Echovald and with actual content. It didn’t need to be a separate hub. Especially as EoD is far too short to need one compared to IBS which had an excellent hub in EoTN.

Haven't got a turtle yet so can’t judge.

Overall the masteries are fine, but with a content light expansion, they feel more like extras added for the sake of it. I think the masteries system as a whole is great, but it feels stretched now and they’ve long been resigned to adding them for the sake of them over the last few years. I want to see tighter designs that are more intuitive and complimented by lots of strong associated content  

[Cobra.6509]

I don't think these "features" are rushed, I think they milk 100% from these 4 ideas, quite professional imho. True the result is lame, but the culprit here are the base ideas itself not the results. When Anet advertised jade bot, turtle,  I was thinking another mount, another pet,  ......  but when they said fishing and skiff I was like wth, nothing good can come from fishing, so I was never hyped about these 4 so called "features"....but they had some nice maps, events, story, so I get a nice content for my money ....

[Farohna.6247]

I like the skiff..it's a boat, it turns like one.  It compliments fishing so I don't get a hook sunk into my poor skimmers fins while fishing off the back of it. I like fishing.  It's casual, something to do besides watch a bobber.  I like the jade bot....it's non invasive and occasionally I get a rez, extra little perks it gives are welcome.  Turtle does what it's supposed to...it's a seige mount.  It helps with breakbars and structures...fun to have a second person ride along.  

I don't find any of it difficult or confusing, but to each their own.

[Nazarick.9653]

21 hours ago, Boogiepop Void.6473 said:

1. they are another thing people need and can kick-sort for in raiding or fractals.
2. other mounts simply do a better job (even the JACKAL which is the least used mount due to sand portals only being on a few maps, has more places it's useful).

 

1. Aren't all the Jade Bot features disabled in all instanced content?

2. I actually think the jackal is the best ground mount to use in Cantha - it's the king of upward slopes (which are everywhere) due to it having the highest base speed AND can still use it's ability (whereas the raptor can't). It can also break long falls (which are everywhere) with it's blink, and the energy booster module (the first one you get) works really well due to each blink using only 1/3 of the bar.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Nazarick.9653

[Zephiron.8732]

I totally agree about the fishing. This bubble mechanic is a P.I.T.A. If we're in the green, our bar to chase the bubble with should be much bigger than what it is. Speaking of chasing the bubble. it was not thought through very well as I have heard from others with medical issues with their hands and/or poor reflexes are having major difficulties trying to fish..

 

YES! If we are in the skiff, we should not have to jump into the water after every fish to fend off naga or drakes or whatever else may be attacking. It's annoying as all get out. Especially when you're in a fishing event!!! 

 

Fishing is SUPPOSED to be calming and relaxing (just like IRL), not stressful enough to cause your blood pressure to rise and to make you want to throw thing.

[SiEO.8430]

I agree about the fishing. I was looking forward to relaxing to it on a skiff anywhere in Tyria and chatting to my friends whilst mindlessly getting a ranfom fish now and then. And this system absolutely kills any social aspect of it as you're constantly trying to chase after the green little bar and annoy the ffffffff out of me. Also different baits and fishing power is just ehh 

 

Something that was meant to be so casual and relaxing is stressful and requires more learning of mechanics.

[daninumbers.4036]

Skiffs are fine as being a social part of the expansion but yeah, the deep charges are useless and not sure why the fishing nodes aren't just visible like any other mining/logging/foraging nodes. The skill lasts 15 seconds on 15 seconds cd, it just forces you to refresh it. Or make it permanent while you are on the skiff for example. But what especially gets on my nerves is the invulnerability or directly ignoring your hits if you are on the skiff. I mean, in any other place, if the enemy can't damage you it goes invulnerable and super regen but will take normal damage if you can range each other. I despise this design but not gonna change now. The thing is on the skiff you can and will be damaged, not just your skiff but also you too.  Meanwhile I swing my gs and... invulnerable invulnerable. It's simply a leftover of that design and really stupid it affects this too.

Fishing is like many other games, nothing new. Also nobody in their right mind would carry all of the baits on every char. You must have a fishing dedicated char and to be honest, once I'm done with those and if ambergris drops enough that's not worth it fishing anymore I'm clearing my inventory off them and just using sardines. In the end all but mackerel have the same 100 fishing power, artificial inventory clogging so you need specific bait for certain fishes. And thankfully as I read they've added fishing vendors outside of Cantha. If you are able to and made to fish outside of there for achievements it makes no sense you must go back to there to buy lure and bait. Especially when you lose your fishing stacks.

The jade bot yeah, it sucks. You either need to do a few chapters on story to get the free one or buy / craft. Otherwise even when my just created level 2 char can glide or get on the skyscale they don't have the emergency protocol. And then any level 80 I bring there can't open jade chests or make any use of it. Besides the fairly big cost of upgrading for every character to use both chips. And then the insanely low drop chance of getting some of the level 3 upgrade materials or spend a big amount of currency if you don't want to do 20 metas for 1 drop. Remember, per character, if you want the full potential. That and the obsession with removing the cheapest sources of research notes. To me it all revolves around making it the biggest gold sink possible: "They aren't spending enough gold, we are removing that too". And needing a workbench just in Cantha to modify it. Pointless to carry different chips for different situations, you must be ready beforehand for whatever you wanna do. Change your full armor and stats in 1 seconds but god forbids you switch from skiff speed to mount regen.

Can't really talk much about the turtle since I gave up on the meta, bought the egg but I don't plan to do strikes for now if ever. It doesn't feel very useful besides for breakbars anyway when you can't use the cannons yourself. Could just let you switch seats so if you go with someone you can move and shoot or you could become stationary and shoot. It's like another social add with the skiff so to use all of the potential you must play with others.

So yeah, I agree. They aren't bad ideas, but most have been implemented in strange ways or to affect the economy, as gold sinks or like food increasing in price.

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

I completely disagree.

1. Fishing... Now honestly I don't care about finishing, its one of my least favorite activities in real life, much less a game. However as fishing is a staple hallmark of MMO's the game feels more complete with it added, and i can appreciate how it improves cooking by diversifying the recipes with some seafood. There is honestly very little feature wise -at least in terms of open world- that this game still needs, its very hard to improve a matured product. That said, sometimes its the little touches that just breath in the feeling of life to a game. More things to do, even small things, just add an extra layer. I can also appreciate that just because I don't like fishing, doesn't mean other players don't. Not every feature has to be for everyone. And I definitely recall reading many forum and reddit post requesting for this over the years.

2. Skiffs - now I know skiffs were designed with fishing in mind. But i find myself constantly using one, even though I basically never fish. Why? There is a lot of water in Tryia, especially in Cantha. Did you know you can unfog all of Seitang Province, except for 2 areas, just by sailing around it? Did you know at full speed, plus the acceleration skill, the skiff moves faster than a skimmer? I also get dismounted far less frequently on my skiff, and -as an added bonus- can bring my party with me. For me the skimmer isn't just a fishing boat, its an alternative form of transportation and exploration. 

3. Jade Bot - honestly the functionality is limited on it for now... But that's just the thing, the modular way they designed it means it can be improved over time with new moduals. The possibilities for this are endless. Whether they pursue them or not is another story, but this definitely has the potential to be the most underated feature ANet has ever introduced. Maybe after a few content releases you'll be eating your words for looking down on it. Then again, ANet does have a bad habit of creating new mechanics with great potential and then prematurely abandoning them because the initial passover wasn't great and the player response was underwhelming. They also have a bad habit of creating interesting new masteries, and then never implementing beyond the map they were created for.

4. Turtle - if you're saying the turtle sucks, I have to wonder if you've ever even used one. Maybe you just haven't completed the mastery track? Just the other day my brother and I were stomping around PoF maps completing events with our cannons faster than we ever have on foot. 

Edited April 25, 2022 by OtakuModeEngage.8679

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

18 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Like why make jade bots character based when most accomplishments in this game are account based unlocks. It doesn't even fit with the rest of the game. I don't understand.

So you can customize and diversify amongst your characters. This feature isn't like a mount or glider, but like a utility slot. Would you want your utility slots to be account bound? i wouldn't. Depending on what "utilities" they add in the future, the Jade bot could become one of the best features in the game.

[Serephen.3420]

On 4/24/2022 at 7:35 AM, Boogiepop Void.6473 said:

4 new "features" were added in EoD: Skiffs, Fishing, Jade Bots, and Turtles. All of them are badly done.

1. Skiffs are unnecessary. The skimmer is superior for every purpose but fishing and fashion wars. They are hard to control, hard to get out due to the lack of keybinding (1 keybind for everything is not accessible, especially for action camera players), and have multiple systemic bad design issues, such as the awkwardness of needing to manually "Stop" to anchor (which often takes many tries to get to a sufficient stop for the game to allow it, assuming it doesn't randomly trap you in the boat due to being "too shallow") and enemies being able to attack you in the boat (both from shore and from the water under the boat). The "depth charge" ability does basically nothing (and is basically only even supposed to exist for the Leviathan event, but it's better to just get out and attack the leviathan any other way). Also there is no reason "fish sense" should be an ability; it should just be on at all times.
2. Fishing is just bad. It's too much RNG, on top of tons of conditions you need to go out of the game to know about (bait type, time of day, hole type, etc.). The ability of enemies to attack you on the skiff also messes it up some as you have to get off and deal with it. The fishing stack mechanic is horribly executed, resetting if you change maps or if you are off the skiff for too long (which can be you dealing with the aforementioned ability to be attacked) and discourages participation on the map (if you go to events you lose your stacks). Fishing power is hard to figure due to all the extra variables (just getting on the skiff changes it, party stacks) and the effect of it is also not clear in game. Many thing are just outright unclear, such as why there are so many bait types when only a few matter, or why most things don't change fishing power, making it seems like it's clogging the inventory for no reason (it clogs in general). It is also unrewarding outside collections (most mats you get don't sell for much, and all you can use them for is to make food to fish with). And because it's inventory based you have to have it on every character (although at least they have put fish vendors outside cantha so you aren't having to send every character there to stock up anymore).
3. Jade Bots are the most alt-unfriendly thing ever added to the game. By making it character bound rather than account bound, it creates a huge hassle. Characters who come to cantha without them have a huge problem working around the maps, and also due to the stat boosts provided by the higher cores, they are another thing people need and can kick-sort for in raiding or fractals. Research notes are also a pain to deal with, as it's confusing what is or is not salvageable for notes (again, only by using external sources can you figure out what is happening) and has created all kinds of weird trading post patterns. Research notes are just another needless currency to keep track of, and if they are to exist there needs to be MUCH better handling of what can and cannot be salvaged (ie why Halloween food but not lunar, wintersday, or dragon bash food?) and it needs to be obvious IN THE GAME. It's awkward to equip everyone since only jewelers can make things (and the costs for higher cores are quite exorbitant, so good luck equipping many characters with anything but level 1), involving tons of inventory swapping, and tons of inventory glut for the chips. The lack of workbenches to allow you to change things anywhere but cantha is also a major issue, requiring tons of needless map transitions. The cores should have been account wide and the chips should have been unlocks, not items.
4. Turtles are just a disappointment. They suffer from being lumped in with the other mounts, and also have weird side issues. You can't mount the COMBAT MOUNT in combat, making them hard to use when they might be good. They are blocked by general mount blocks in areas it would make sense to use them (like the frost citadel, which is a literal SIEGE). But most importantly, they are unfun and almost useless for the driver. Whenever you use them, you just have to spam "GET IN" in chat over and over, because you are actually unable to do much of anything without a gunner. Also, the way reloading works (by movement) combined with both the best places to use it right now (Aspenwood, DE) being full of tight spaces and the drifty movement, means the mount is actively hard to use both for the driver AND the gunner who has trouble aiming as the turtle frantically moves around. Also outside of those two areas (and a few spots in Drizzlewood) there is next to nothing in the game to do with the turtles, as other mounts simply do a better job (even the JACKAL which is the least used mount due to sand portals only being on a few maps, has more places it's useful). It is also a huge visual obstruction for other players (even semi transparent) and has odd things such as being the only mount that destroys carried packages (meaning if you mount it by accident you can flub events) and bugs (such as trying to slam, the one thing you can do as driver, and just hanging in mid air). It feels especially bad after the effort needed to unlock it, something that neither the Griffin nor the Skyscale did when you unlocked them. Many people find that the WARCLAW has more PVE utility then the turtle, despite being intentionally nerfed in non-WvW (which is another place the turtle would make sense to be usable). I have seen people telling players not to bother getting the turtle because there is no reason to go through the effort.

Basically none of these features landed, and certainly compared to both HoT and PoF features they are a huge letdown. These features all feel half baked, incomplete, ill considered, and badly designed, and none of them really fit into the game as a whole cleanly (Skiffs and fishing are basically separate from the rest of the game, Jade Bots are awkward and counter to the game encouraging many characters, and turtles just lack both purpose and polish).

I would just like to make one correction regarding jade bots. They don't affects raids, fractals or any instanced content because the buffs they give only work in the open world.

[Sarius.9285]

11 hours ago, Nazarick.9653 said:

1. Aren't all the Jade Bot features disabled in all instanced content?

no, the actual vitality boost isn't. And it's actually a pretty decent DPS boost on many classes

[HowlKamui.5120]

I agree completely with how bad jade bots are for alts, and is the opposite of how Anet tends to do things. 

[Astralporing.1957]

4 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

So you can customize and diversify amongst your characters. This feature isn't like a mount or glider, but like a utility slot. Would you want your utility slots to be account bound? i wouldn't. Depending on what "utilities" they add in the future, the Jade bot could become one of the best features in the game.

My gliders are unlocked account-wise, and i don't need to use any "glider desk" to change them, and yet i can customize and diversify them on all my characters. Jade Bots could have easily worked the same way, but anet wanted to disguise a new gear grind/progression option as mastery, so we have what we have. Except of course i can get a legendary option for all gear slots except breather (which is not a problem since noone plays underwater content anymore), but there's no legendary bot equivalent.

[Gorem.8104]

To be honest, the jade bot system needs an overhaul. You should be able to swap anywhere, and you should be able to have more then one attachment of each time, and they should be account based so you only need one level 10 and one of each type of upgrade per account, not character. 

You should be able to use them like a toy anywhere in game and other players should be able to see it so you can line up screenshots anywhere in the entire game using them. The battery mechanic needs to be scrapped or changed entirely so that its solar and just recharges over time. It makes the area's stand out as no area's outside of Cantha just has random batteries thrown all over the place. And yet without one you are stuck in Cantha - again something that alts should not have to deal with by requiring them to buy expensive bots or just use multiple level 1's or constantly swapping. No mechanic in the game has been as alt-unfriendly as Jade bots. 

Gliders and mounts? Account wide unlocks, skins to change? instant. Dyes? instant. Jade bots? Oh woops! logged in my alt. "Loading" oh hang on let me just put this in the shared slot! oh wait I forgot I need a workbench hang on "loading" unslotted now cool quick run to bank/crafting station (as I forgot I only have one slot free) in guild hall ok good its in there, alright log out "loading" "click" "loading" "ok cool on my alt, lets now go to a bank "loading" alright, got my thing oh wait! "Loading" ok workbench, cool done, lets go back "Loading". 

Edited April 25, 2022 by Gorem.8104

[Rasimir.6239]

On 4/24/2022 at 12:35 AM, Boogiepop Void.6473 said:

tons of conditions you need to go out of the game to know about (bait type, time of day, hole type, etc.).

Small comment on fishing conditions: you can see all you need to know for each fish (map/reagion, bait, time of day, type of hole) simply by mouseover in the fishing collection menu. No need to go out of game to find this.

[Izzy.2951]

2 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

You should be able to use them like a toy anywhere in game and other players should be able to see it

People were very worried about this before EoD dropped. I would like that you could use the jade bot to take a picture, but whats the point on making jade bot permanently show? 1st) more FPS lag, 2)It will ruin all the other game feeling and lore, 3)We already have minis to show all the time. Idk, whats the point of running with a jade bot in Elona for example.

[Freya.9075]

You feel they were implemented badly. I feel the new features are really good. Neither of us are wrong or right. It’s purely based on opinions. 

[Boogiepop Void.6473]

I just had to spend half an hour on nearly a dozen sites trying to figure out what I could salvage for research notes in a cost effective manner. Half of that was just trying to find current lists of things that are actually salvageable as they keep changing the items and anything even hours out of date can leave you with unsalvageable junk items in your inventory with nothing to show for it. The entire Research notes system is a mess and completely and totally unusable without MASSIVE external resources from the player base.