Downstate is being wrongfully blamed.

[Quench.7091]

Whenever I see a forum topic on downed state and how it should be removed, I see it conflated with another topic. There aren't many people who take issue with players taking risks to pick players up while they get bombed with AoE attacks. There aren't many complaints that I see against players utilizing revival skills. Reviving a player can be a risky or costly maneuver. It almost always the rally mechanic that people take issue with. Killing an enemy is something that is easy to specialize in and is less risky than standing in the very thing that got a player downed to begin with.

The rally mechanic has been nerfed in WvW before. It brought about positive change. The code is there and it can be adjusted. They could change that 1 rally per enemy death to a 0. We don't need to make several profession abilities useless by removing downed state. We could easily address the rally mechanic directly. Indirect removals are an excessive approach.

To go further into my thought on the subject, we should try no rally WvW events in place of no downed state events and see how that works out. Those events feel kind of bad on professions that utilize downed state revival skills. No rallying opens up opportunities for these usually underutilized abilities to shine. Enhancing the experience of support class abilities and addressing the issue that people take with the rally mechanic seems like a win/win that we should experiment with.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Quench.7091

[Telgum.6071]

Fighting against a boonball and taking a single player just for it to be revived 2 seconds after is simply not fun. Just disable downstate for enemies when you are outnumbered.

[Rider.6024]

6 hours ago, Quench.7091 said:

There aren't many complaints that I see against players utilizing revival skills. Reviving a player can be a risky or costly maneuver. It almost always the rally mechanic that people take issue with. Killing an enemy is something that is easy to specialize in and is less risky than standing in the very thing that got a player downed to begin with.

Going to have to agree to disagree on this, the whole thing.

 

Reviving a player with certain traits/utilities is about one the easiest things for many builds, its why everyone hates downstate now in pvp/wvw

 

make no downstate the norm!

[Karagee.6830]

13 hours ago, Quench.7091 said:

Whenever I see a forum topic on downed state and how it should be removed, I see it conflated with another topic. There aren't many people who take issue with players taking risks to pick players up while they get bombed with AoE attacks. There aren't many complaints that I see against players utilizing revival skills. Reviving a player can be a risky or costly maneuver. It almost always the rally mechanic that people take issue with. Killing an enemy is something that is easy to specialize in and is less risky than standing in the very thing that got a player downed to begin with.

The rally mechanic has been nerfed in WvW before. It brought about positive change. The code is there and it can be adjusted. They could change that 1 rally per enemy death to a 0. We don't need to make several profession abilities useless by removing downed state. We could easily address the rally mechanic directly. Indirect removals are an excessive approach.

To go further into my thought on the subject, we should try no rally WvW events in place of no downed state events and see how that works out. Those events feel kind of bad on professions that utilize downed state revival skills. No rallying opens up opportunities for these usually underutilized abilities to shine. Enhancing the experience of support class abilities and addressing the issue that people take with the rally mechanic seems like a win/win that we should experiment with.

No down state for whoever is fighting outnumbered people. End of. If I kill you despite being greatly outnumbered on the map (which almost invariably means greatly outnumbered in fights also) you should run from the nearest waypoint, not wait for the other million extra players to revive you or rally, maybe off a guard or a critter.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Ronin.4501]

9 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Fighting against a boonball and taking a single player just for it to be revived 2 seconds after is simply not fun. Just disable downstate for enemies when you are outnumbered.

 

1 hour ago, Karagee.6830 said:

No down state for whoever is fighting outnumbered people. End of. If I kill you despite being greatly outnumbered on the map (which almost invariably means greatly outnumbered in fights also) you should run from the nearest waypoint, not wait for the other million extra players to revive you or rally, maybe off a guard or a critter.

I think we all know that there would be guilds/servers that would try to abuse this, so no.

And before the accusations start pouring in, I should probably add that I'm primarily a roamer who spends a lot of time on outnumbered maps (because if I can force 5-10-15 enemy players to stay on the map hunting me just by flipping camps and towers and being a general pain in the kitten, I've already won) so this mechanic would actually be of great benefit to me...but still, no.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Ronin.4501

[Bias.4306]

Nanh, better to just remove downstate for all WvW. Would be abused otherwise.

[Lucy.3728]

12 minutes ago, Ronin.4501 said:

I should probably add that I'm primarily a roamer who spends a lot of time on outnumbered maps (because if I can force 5-10-15 enemy players to stay on the map hunting me just by flipping camps and towers and being a general pain in the kitten, I've already won)

You alone flip towers? While being chased by at least 5 foes?

No wonder you are primarily on outnumbered maps.

Once your ego joined a map, there not much space left for more players.

 

I like coming home from work, turn some camps and towers and whatever can be turned, while waiting in the EB queue.

It's relaxing. And good to come down from the work stress and mentally prepare for the action on EB.

Just fight some easy mobs, stand in a circle and watch how it slowly, slowly changes its colour. No stress.

 

You're not a pain in the *meow* for just everybody.

Thank you for your hard work 😉

[Ronin.4501]

16 minutes ago, Lucy.3728 said:

You alone flip towers? While being chased by at least 5 foes?

No wonder you are primarily on outnumbered maps.

Once your ego joined a map, there not much space left for more players.

 

I like coming home from work, turn some camps and towers and whatever can be turned, while waiting in the EB queue.

It's relaxing. And good to come down from the work stress and mentally prepare for the action on EB.

Just fight some easy mobs, stand in a circle and watch how it slowly, slowly changes its colour. No stress.

 

You're not a pain in the *meow* for just everybody.

Thank you for your hard work 😉

How nice for you!  And how nice that you assume I'm on an ego trip.  I was simply pointing out that I'm not a player who spends all their time running around with the boonball map-queue blobs and was thus against the proposed Outnumbered buff because it would be to my side's disadvantage.

But since we're basing our comments on assumptions, I'm going to assume that since you're the type of player who immediately queues up for EBG, you're most likely one of the sheep who follows the blobs around carrying you while you contribute nothing more than being another body in the crowd and that the "no-downstate for map queue blobs" has probably angered you because you're always one of the first to die.

Have a nice day! 😉

[Dawdler.8521]

37 minutes ago, Bias.4306 said:

Nanh, better to just remove downstate for all WvW. Would be abused otherwise.

Can you elaborate on how removal of the rally part of downed state would lead to abuse?

[Aeolus.3615]

@Bias.4306 That's actually a part  of the , how to fix the downstate >_>

That and nerf rubbing alies... make better skills on reviving downstate alies, so players have to choose between use their utility or save it, hard choices is what makes a game really skill player based. 

Gw1 and gw2 rezurrect fusion :)

Edited July 5, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Boh.4568]

My only gripe is elementalist, when an enemy player gets isolated from the zerg and downed, as I select them to finish them before the squad comes to rescue them, I just see the whirl icon and think "oh, ele. nvm", as their corpse slowly walks 10000km back to the zerg.

[Coldtart.4785]

I'm sure the issues people have with the down state have nothing to do with the fast three target ranged revive skill that can be used three times before getting any sort of cooldown that chrono commanders always run.

[Quench.7091]

3 hours ago, Coldtart.4785 said:

I'm sure the issues people have with the down state have nothing to do with the fast three target ranged revive skill that can be used three times before getting any sort of cooldown that chrono commanders always run.

It's doublely powerful, thanks to the rally mechanic. If you save an ally before they rally an enemy, the enemy will rally another ally. It's kind of cheesy, but it's a rally or get rallied world.

[Salt Mode.3780]

They should just allow warclaw to insta down like it was back then. This way there is downstate but allowed roamers/small group to have a chance to fight bigger blobs.

[Svarty.8019]

On 7/5/2022 at 1:23 AM, Quench.7091 said:

The code is there and it can be adjusted. They could change that 1 rally per enemy death to a 0.

A fair point, but one that seems to favour ganksquads. I don't like it.

[Labjax.2465]

As far as I can tell, it's people going after the symptoms instead of the underlying cause. Seems to come hand in hand with complaints about boon balls or zergs more generally, which will not magically go away with no down state. 10 scattered people trying to pick off tail of a 50 person zerg is never going to be a fair experience and it would be odd if it was. It seems to me this is just the issues of hard-to-kill boon balls, server pop, and organization being pushed on downstate.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Rally isn't the problem. The problem is multiple health bars and multi stage fights. If I wanted that I'd play a console game.

 

Delete downstate in competitive.

[Dralor.3701]

Downstate has always been a problem so far as it helps the team with numbers win more. There is little to no opportunity cost to revive (and this cost diminishes with additional revivers).

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, Svarty.8019 said:

A fair point, but one that seems to favour ganksquads. I don't like it.

Deleting rally shouldnt change much against gankers - they're probably gonna have someone downed long before you get them down and thus force a manual res or loose the downed anyway. In return if the gankers get downed they are usually too glassy to res.

Now, deleting downstate... thats a whole other ballgame for gankers. Thats why suggestions to delete it is the stupidest thing ever. We've seen the effects every single no downstate week - fun at first with the novelty, then people realize it heavily favors certain builds and it makes fights end instantly thus it become boring. At the end of the week most just seem to want it back.

[Quench.7091]

2 hours ago, Dralor.3701 said:

Downstate has always been a problem so far as it helps the team with numbers win more. There is little to no opportunity cost to revive (and this cost diminishes with additional revivers).

From my experience, downed players get bombed. A downed player can't double dodge. It takes several cooldowns to save one person in support scrapper roles, including stealth gyro. That or a really well timed rally. Usually it's the rally.

[KrHome.1920]

18 hours ago, Ronin.4501 said:

 

I think we all know that there would be guilds/servers that would try to abuse this, so no.

And before the accusations start pouring in, I should probably add that I'm primarily a roamer who spends a lot of time on outnumbered maps (because if I can force 5-10-15 enemy players to stay on the map hunting me just by flipping camps and towers and being a general pain in the kitten, I've already won) so this mechanic would actually be of great benefit to me...but still, no.

You mean like abusing server overstacking after relinks have happened?

It would acually be interesting when guilds that want to fight outnumbered against no downstate blobs would populate empty servers.

[Tseison.4659]

I actually really liked that “no downstate” when we had it in WvW and hope they bring that back or make it permanent, especially when in this day and age we’re dealing with boonballs.

[Zyreva.1078]

On 7/5/2022 at 2:23 AM, Quench.7091 said:

Reviving a player can be a risky or costly maneuver. It almost always the rally mechanic that people take issue with. Killing an enemy is something that is easy to specialize in and is less risky than standing in the very thing that got a player downed to begin with.

No. Rally hasn't been an issue since it got changed to one per death.

The issue with downstate and ressing is, that it's overpowered in relation to the dmg and sustain of "alive" players/stomping and how well it scales with superior numbers. Rally has nothing to do with all of this.

Fact is - finishing leaves the player in a just as vulnerable position as ressing, except it takes longer, can't be sped up and is easier to counter, since any interruption will cancel the entire progress. Cleaving has it's limits too, unless you have an entire zerg, due to dmg nerfs, high rez speed (that's far higher than any other form of "healing" while requiring zero investment), tankyness of downed bodies (free invuln and full cleanse, huge hp pool) as well as potential counter pressure from both downed (with unnerfed dmg!) and alive enemies.

[Kozumi.5816]

Games more fun without downstate 100% of the time.

Being able to res a full dead person OOC is a joke too, just force a WP on death like spvp.

Actually, just make WvW  have everything the same as spvp. WvW is a joke of a game mode.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[kash.9213]

43 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Games more fun without downstate 100% of the time.

Being able to res a full dead person OOC is a joke too, just force a WP on death like spvp.

Actually, just make WvW  have everything the same as spvp. WvW is a joke of a game mode.

That's been proven wrong in game and in these threads.