Killproof-System (KP System)

[Anton.9230]

Hello everyone,

 

Prose and backround:

I wanted to address the issue of the very flawed KP system of Guild Wars 2 with this post. There are probably more entries on this already but I thought it was a better idea to start a thread anew.

Shortly to my backround:

I am a somewhat experienced player with 7k+ in game playtime and do regular raid full clears as well as other high-end content in the game while also actively training newcomers to get into the content and give them an environment where they can calmly study boss mechanics and overall encounters while given advice and explanation.

 

Currently I am gladly following 'the path of Arenanet' in supporting diverse support comps for high-end 5- and 10-man content because I find it healthy to see a more variable class / spec variety than the ChroDru's and Firebrigades of past eras.

I do not want to open the box of the pandora here and talk about the balance of the support classes allthough there is a huge disparity in between the top-tier supporters like mechanist and firebrand in comparison to pretty much every other support option.

Thus, I would appreciate you not writing about balance in this thread.

 

Due to the decision of class variety I now have to write 'essays' in the LFG system (worth another topic) when trying to find my squad and when players start to join, the horror of being a commander begins.

Usually groups fill up quite quickly and then you get a plethora of different kps. Most ping a kp.me link, while others link raid boss kps or LI or show their titles etc.

Especially due to the changes to fractal kps the whole kp system got completely messed up cause everything is kinda different and also (i.e . in terms of raid kps) very unreliable as a person with 10kps could have cleared a raid encounter twice or ten times. Therefore, I find it important to fix this issue.

 

I do have a very natural and harmonic suggestion for it as well with a lot of positive side effects and frankly not many downsides.

Especially not using third-party software like kp.me plug-ins is argueably the biggest advantage.

 

Idea:

For now I am gonna specialise on RAID encounters but this can be applied to Dungeons (yes, I am still a huge dungeon advocat), FotM CMs, Strikes and Strike CMs) as well.

 

Change 1: Continuous achievements

As done in wvw and pvp already I would introduce continuous achievements / titles for the different raid wings.

That means: Every time you clear a raid wing you get a point towards this continuous achievement. For every 'checkpoint' of the achievement you get a new title (somehwat like the 'God walking amongst mere mortals' from Guild Wars 1) and also some achievement points.

Let's put this into context of Wing 5 for example.

 

Overall achievement name i. e.: 'Conqueror of the underworld'

Tier 1 awarded when every encounter in W5 is cleared once [while being alive at the end] (the part in [...] is optional if raid-buying shall be aggravated)

Title i. e.: 'Slayer of the Underworld'

Tier 2 awarded when every encounter in W5 is cleared three times [...]

Title i. e.: 'Ruler of the Underworld'

Tier 3 awarded when every encounter in W5 is cleared five times [...]

Title i. e.: 'Arbiter of the Underworld'

Tier 4 awarded when every encounter in W5 is cleared ten times [...]

Title i. e.: 'Lord of the Underworld'

Tier 5 awarded when every encounter in W5 is cleared twenty times [...]

Title i. e.: 'Monarch of the Underworld'

Tier 6 awarded when every encounter in W5 is cleared fifty times [...]

Title i. e.: 'Champion of the Underworld'

Tier 7 awarded when every encounter in W5 is cleared one-hundred times [...]

Title i. e.: 'God of the Underworld'

 

Change 2: Title visibility

(This change primarily serves as a quality of life change for commanders)

When hovering over the player's name in the squad window, the equipped title is visible.

 

Without lengthening this tome and writing about pros and cons I want to open the discussion and get some feedback on your view of this.

(For this thread it is assumed that everyone knows about the need of a halfway reliant and handy experience measurement system. Thus, the 'how' of such a measurement system and not the 'if' shall be the focus of this thread)

 

Kind regards

 

Anton

[TexZero.7910]

TL;DR you want the GW1 reputation system back

[Dark Red Killian.3946]

I had this same idea years ago. I can’t remember posting it, but this way definately shows your experience and clears in a raid wing. Would it get cumbersome if you had regular vs cm title tracks? Or would just one track be able to cover everything?

[Gajex.2386]

41 minutes ago, Anton.9230 said:

a person with 10kps could have cleared a raid encounter twice or ten times.

Oof, I feel this on a personal level. RNG and I are not on speaking terms there, ha.

 

Anyway, I like the idea with the titles. This would make it somewhat similar with the already existing system of PvP titles.

On the flipside, title bloat.

[Astralporing.1957]

There's a reason why there are things that potentially can be used as KPs but that is not their primary purpose, but there's no real ingame kill counter that could fulfill that purpose more directly and reliably.

That "a halfway reliant and handy experience measurement system" you say everyone knows is needed? Anet does not want to officially support it.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Krzysztof.5973]

No KP system if flawless. That's why people use decorations as KP, just divide it by 3-4 on avg and you get the amount of kills somebody has. Li/Ld is better as it's 1:1 ratio but it's more general. Sure the idea of your system would be nice but I doubt this audience would be in favor of it.

[Astralporing.1957]

I didn't think that my opinion on Anet's stance about KP system would be validated so fast, but it seems they are trying to make it harder for groups to use LI as an "experience marker". Or at the very least they don't seem to value this (unintended) function at all.

[Nash.2681]

14 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I didn't think that my opinion on Anet's stance about KP system would be validated so fast, but it seems they are trying to make it harder for groups to use LI as an "experience marker". Or at the very least they don't seem to value this (unintended) function at all.

Guess a kp.me account will now become mandatory for everyone not running with a static. Wonder how well that fits in A.Nets intentions...

[Asum.4960]

Agreed, I suggested the same thing many times over the years. 

I'm not confident in Anet to implement such a thing as it seems like they haven't learned anything from the removal of Fractal KP and subsequentially pushing players towards third party websites rather than the convenience of just clicking an item ingame, making the content even far more inaccessible to more casual players - with doing the same now for the even farther reaching LI. 

 

What Anet doesn't want to see is that when players are forced to decide between entering complete messes of groups in terms of clashing skill levels, goals and expectations due to lack of any filtering tools available in game, highly increasing the chances for toxic interactions and wastes of time, or going through the whole trouble of engaging with third party websites to share account information, it's going to be the latter at large. 

The idea that suddenly everybody just plays together and gets along because there is no way to find like minded and -skilled players ingame is incredibly naive  and silly, and Anet keeps (mis-)treating symptoms rather than addressing the core issues of the Game.

 

So it seems things are going to get a lot worse before, if at all, they'll get better. But I guess that's part of the course for the game at this point.

[mythical.6315]

I think the reason they wouldn’t add a system like this is that it would exacerbate the situation and also be interpreted as them giving a green light to this sort of thing.

[eyelogix.1654]

I told MightyTeapot in his stream yesterday that Li is garbage, and he defended like it was the best thing to keep.
He would even go lengths to create something just to check the Li.
From my standpoint It is just a bad way to measure skills.
Sadly I just think gatekeeping is bad for the game especially when they are trying adding the game to Steam in the near future.
The newbie who is starting trying the game and decides to buy the expansions. The player gets the stuff in order just to hit another wall, and in the end in the new player will quit the game.

I don't raid, and early on i never intended to raid. However I do want to do Strike Mission on occasions, but finding a group can be a real hassle especially for the new content.

[mythical.6315]

32 minutes ago, eyelogix.1654 said:

From my standpoint It is just a bad way to measure skills.

True but other options are limited  

32 minutes ago, eyelogix.1654 said:

Sadly I just think gatekeeping is bad for the game

The only gatekeeping occurring is from people’s groups that they create. It’s not actual gatekeeping as other players are free to create their own groups. 

[chronometria.3708]

Legendary insight requirements were popping up for fractals, strike missions - and pretty much anything anyone could think of. They were also asking for way, way too many. Not to mention that even if people had the number, it didnt mean anything as a chunk of them were getting carried or buying their clears.

 

Hopefully this resets things and a better system can be worked out in their place.

[Wolfshade.9251]

Clicking on every single player joining your squad (or instance) to check for titles seems like a lot more hassle than a brief glance on the kp.me table in the corner of the screen. Sure it's 3rd party, but I'm yet to see a suggestion for a system more convenient than this.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

The reason why killproof is as crooked as it is now is that players 'abused' in-game drops, currencies or titles to function as proof of (raid) kills. It was never intended by AreanNet for that purpose.

[Sobx.1758]

On 7/14/2022 at 1:15 PM, Asum.4960 said:

Agreed, I suggested the same thing many times over the years. 

I'm not confident in Anet to implement such a thing as it seems like they haven't learned anything from the removal of Fractal KP and subsequentially pushing players towards third party websites rather than the convenience of just clicking an item ingame, making the content even far more inaccessible to more casual players - with doing the same now for the even farther reaching LI. 

 

What Anet doesn't want to see is that when players are forced to decide between entering complete messes of groups in terms of clashing skill levels, goals and expectations due to lack of any filtering tools available in game, highly increasing the chances for toxic interactions and wastes of time, or going through the whole trouble of engaging with third party websites to share account information, it's going to be the latter at large. 

The idea that suddenly everybody just plays together and gets along because there is no way to find like minded and -skilled players ingame is incredibly naive  and silly, and Anet keeps (mis-)treating symptoms rather than addressing the core issues of the Game.

 

So it seems things are going to get a lot worse before, if at all, they'll get better. But I guess that's part of the course for the game at this point.

Well said, never intended to have a kp.me account, all this change does is kind of... push me to have it just in case. 🤷‍♂️

On 7/14/2022 at 8:49 PM, eyelogix.1654 said:

The newbie who is starting trying the game and decides to buy the expansions. The player gets the stuff in order just to hit another wall, and in the end in the new player will quit the game.

So since "the newbie can't instantly jump into harder/est content the game has to offer and instantly get carried to rewards by more experienced playes", it somehow makes anything here bad? Definitely disagree.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Dean.3056]

I do like the sound of titles in raids outside "Cleared boss / CM" and that's it.

As for KP it will never disappear. It should be in game by rank/items/LI or some sort of clever LFG OR it is going to be 3rd party. Never the less a way to separate the exp from the inexp should exist.

Most exp raiders do not want to join progress groups or groups who struggle to kill the easiest bosses. I've seen some interesting fails over the years.

[chronometria.3708]

On 7/17/2022 at 4:24 PM, Dean.3056 said:

I do like the sound of titles in raids outside "Cleared boss / CM" and that's it.

As for KP it will never disappear. It should be in game by rank/items/LI or some sort of clever LFG OR it is going to be 3rd party. Never the less a way to separate the exp from the inexp should exist.

Most exp raiders do not want to join progress groups or groups who struggle to kill the easiest bosses. I've seen some interesting fails over the years.

Thats the problem with it though, its not really that useful to actual experienced players. Most decent raiders, if not almost all, have access to their own reliable communities that do away with the need for such proofs. Instead, killproofs enter the hands of people who themselves dont make the grade. Often the ones asking for them are themselves poorly skilled or used to getting carried and many raiders find that people passing the checks often dont know the basics because they have been carried.

 

The longer the system runs, the less reliable it becomes until nobody trusts it and it ends up in hyperinflation. 50LI not enough, maybe 100...maybe 1000, maybe 2000 will prove a basic level of skill....and so on till we get to where we are today.

[Chyro.1462]

So.. spending my legendary insights or using decorations for my guild's guildhouse as intended .. reduces my percieved experience level? Meaning if I want to get into experienced groups, I'm not allowed to spend my earned rewards? Welp.

 

As someone newly getting into raiding and mostly going with training groups for now ... this sure dampens the excitement for rewards. Knowing I can't use them if I want to be able to join experienced groups eventually.

 

Edit: Only noticed after posting the dates of previous posts .. did not realize I was a necromancer. Just ended up in this topic after googling what KP and LI means ^^'

Edited November 26, 2022 by Chyro.1462

[Schimmi.6872]

24 minutes ago, Chyro.1462 said:

So.. spending my legendary insights or using decorations for my guild's guildhouse as intended .. reduces my percieved experience level? Meaning if I want to get into experienced groups, I'm not allowed to spend my earned rewards? Welp.

 

As someone newly getting into raiding and mostly going with training groups for now ... this sure dampens the excitement for rewards. Knowing I can't use them if I want to be able to join experienced groups eventually.

 

Edit: Only noticed after posting the dates of previous posts .. did not realize I was a necromancer. Just ended up in this topic after googling what KP and LI means ^^'

In this case you could use https://killproof.me/, if you give it time to refresh (or manually refresh) between earning and spending your decorations, chests etc., they will be counted too. LI used for armors and the ring are also included in the calculation, but normally groups also accept, if you ping the armor or show the envoys herald-title instead of LI too.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I wish we had a good KP system that didn't rely on items that players sometimes have to use. Some of the guild decorations are quite nice for example, but guilds have had to stop using them due to being KP.

 

The same goes for any currency, item, etc. that has a use other than just being killproof.

 

Also, KP for all content, not just raids, would be useful. For example, if I could look at someone's KP in a dungeon I can easily see what kind of build I need to run. There are many, many non-toxic uses of KP, and I'd even argue its even less toxic than DPS meters for the most part, since they're a passive indicator and not an active one.

 

I think most toxicity comes from active monitoring, since its not a sign of where you've been and what you've done but purely a sign of your current performance, which peaks and falls throughout time.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Sobx.1758]

9 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

I wish we had a good KP system that didn't rely on items that players sometimes have to use. Some of the guild decorations are quite nice for example, but guilds have had to stop using them due to being KP.

 

The same goes for any currency, item, etc. that has a use other than just being killproof.

 

Also, KP for all content, not just raids, would be useful. For example, if I could look at someone's KP in a dungeon I can easily see what kind of build I need to run. There are many, many non-toxic uses of KP, and I'd even argue its even less toxic than DPS meters for the most part, since they're a passive indicator and not an active one.

 

I think most toxicity comes from active monitoring, since its not a sign of where you've been and what you've done but purely a sign of your current performance, which peaks and falls throughout time.

Nothing toxic about dps meters. The way some people choose to interact with them can be and in that manner, anything -including kp- is equally "toxic".

Edited November 28, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

19 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

I think most toxicity comes from active monitoring, since its not a sign of where you've been and what you've done but purely a sign of your current performance, which peaks and falls throughout time.

And people mention when your average is low, not at the moment. Besides, if your damage is only the 5th highest, but you have dealth most of the damage so far noone's gonna call you out on it.

[Excursion.9752]

I made a tKP Account and gave it an apikey that was completely open so people using Blish Hud could quickly see my KP in their menus. As soon as I join their squad anyone running the addon will be able to see what I have taken part in.  Its pretty cool when people come into your squad that have an account linked it lets you know on your screen.  Click on their name and off you go!

Its quick and easy and recommend it.

When it comes down to kp being toxic I mostly disagree.  There are toxic people who abuse anything and everything and kp or not, they are not people you want to be around. So block them, leave the group, and move on. Same philosophy I use when I play sPvP. 

Sure you should need to make a special account and configure Blish HUD but all in all its not that bad.  And after about 2 days you can use your kp/decoration fragments in your guild hall.

The one thing I wish we could track above all else is "deaths to mechanics" haha jk.

[stormemperor.3745]

LF 250 KP need TLDR.

Thank you,